Are Bush/Cheney raising their own private army of Blackshirts?
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Privatizing Murder, Or Blackwater: The Perfect Combo Of Christianity, Capitalism And Killing - Comments Page 3
Article comments
76 - Franco
Adam Ash’s main opinion piece, along with many of the people posting here are taking decisively pointed attacks at both Christianity and the free enterprise system by intentionally combining them in with the evil of the monster they are trying to make Blackwater out to be.
Case in point…….
Adam Ash sez…….."In other words, Blackwater is where three current strands of American Taliban-style fundamentalism meet: Chicago School free-market fundamentalism, right-wing evangelical fundamentalism, and American militarism.
Picture today's perfect three-handed US fundamentalist: he's got a Bible in one hand, Milton Friedman in the other, and a Glock in the other."
Right here in that last short sentence, Adam Ash attemmets to inciminte three important rights of the American people.
1. Right of the people to freedom of religion and the right to worshop.
2. Right of the peole to freedom of liberty and the pursuit of happiness (free enterprise being just one of those)
3. Right of the people to bare arms.
First, Blackwater is made up of some of the most highly professionally trained military personnel in the world. Go ahead and call them all the irresponsible adjectives you want and make yourself look like an idiot, I don’t have to defend them, Blackwater can defend themselves.
The main issue at hand is getting lost in all of the progressive left’s emotionalism and misguided agenda. The main issue is about accountability of Blackwater. How does Blackwater feel about accountablity? Erik Prince stated before Congress that Blackwater would support such accountably. Something not one poster on this thread has pointed out.
Instead, Adam Ash and the others like him are attacking the freedoms of the American people. I assert it is Adam Ash and the progressives here, not Blackwater, that poses the real threat to our county.
I assert that the efforts of Adam Ash and those who support him are trying to incriminate Christianity and free enterprise in the progressive left witch hunt of Blackwater. These assertions comes dangerously close to the very same religious persecution, and over taxations on earnings, suffered by the people of Europe, who escaped and came to establish an America free of such tyrannical thinking.
First, the freedom to worship as a Christian and to freely give money in support of Christian organizations is not illegal.
Second, making profits from a successful company, whether it’s Blackwater, or Erik Prince's fathers company, or anyone else’s, is not illegal.
Until those of the progressive left recognize what they are doing and how they appear, they will be meet with opposition from the people. Our forefathers took this stand before, and the overwhelming majority of the people will take that stand today.
Adam sez……."In the name of our Constitution, in the name of justice, in the name of good governance, in the name of all we hold dear " what next, America?"
I assert that Adam Ash, and those like him, need to read and understand our Constitution along with our Bill of Rights, so they can refresh themselves on the facts (that are with out confusion) on how it guarantees us the right to freely worship, the rights to bare arms, and the right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness (of which a free enterprise and profitable business would surly apply).
Adam sez… "they're a massive para-military outfit with their own helicopters, powerful enough to overthrow governments, ….they can let loose these Blackwater guys on US citizenry."
Adam, I’m glad you brought that up. The reason the second amendment exists, and the only reason it exists, is to guarantees the American people the right to bare arms to protect themselves from the tyranny and oppression of individuals or governments who would try and criminalize the freedom of worship and free enterprise. Three (3) Rights that you have tried to incriminate.
Something to think about Adam, in the name of all you hold dear, if you can, when you Dingbots fill the inside of your cerebellum and are fucked up on sex, drugs and rock 'n roll.
77 - handyguy
The right to bare arms...nah.
I think both left and right wingers should keep their upper limbs covered with appropriate clothing.
78 - handyguy
Re: Franco's impassioned Constitutional meltdown -
I can't speak with certainty for Adam or others, but I don't believe any of us who call James Dobson a nutcase and a genuinely unpleasant human being are in any way interested in interfering with Dobson practicing his religion.
But if he believes that part of his religious practice should consist of publicly attacking and defaming others, Dobson and his ilk deserve to be criticized, loudly, which is what leftist critics of fundamentalist politicos do. Then Dobson is free to return the favor, and so on.
And if we believe nutburgers like Dobson have at times exercised too much influence over government and policy, we'll complain, loudly, about that too.
This is not a constitutional crisis, but simply the free exercise of democracy.
And if anyone can convince us that Erik Prince is not a religious fanatic/fascistic creep a la Dobson, then we should certainly not conflate the two, as Adam did in this deliberately provocative piece.
[Dave's infatuation with these gunslingers is pretty disturbing, but I'll hold off on further comment until he publishes his promised love letter/article.]
79 - Dave Nalle
they're a massive para-military outfit with their own helicopters
Adam, you left out their APCs, tanks, airplanes and warships.
Dave
80 - bliffle
Franco, in his customary incurious and unexamined way, sez" ...attacks at both Christianity and the free enterprise system by intentionally combining them..."
But of course this is exactly what most bozos masquerading as thinkers and citizens do : they confute morals and economics. Usually in order to justify their own rampages of torture and murder. Whether it's colonialists massacring the natives or street rabble guillotining the heads of the Royals.
Is it not so?
It's not a coincidence that so many Country Parsons become economic theorists fraught with ideas that, voila!, confirm their ethical predispositions!
In fact, rationalization of ethical precepts with economic hoo hah is so deeply embedded in most peoples consciousness that they are simply unable to disentangle the two. And the result is that they always lie, dissemble, falsify information and cherry pick in order to ensure that their economic analysis comes out the right ethical hole.
81 - Franco
#91 "handyguy
handyguy,
From my understanding of what you said, no argument from me, I agree with everything throughout your post #91, except the last paragraph, which is at the heart of my previous post.
You'er last paragraph states.........."And if anyone can convince us that Erik Prince is not a religious fanatic/fascistic creep a la Dobson, then we should certainly not conflate the two, as Adam did in this deliberately provocative piece."
I assert that no one is obligated to convince you (and who ever “us” is) of anything regarding Erik Prince’s personal faith, unless someone has just cause and can show he is using it in breaking the law.
Even if Erik Prince were a religious fanatic/fascistic under your interpretation of that, or Adams, you would have to show just cause that he, through his faith, is committing some crime. You have failed to do that. People are considered innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.
Through the laws separating Church and State, what Erik Prince of Blackwater dose at work for a living, and what he pays in taxes to the State on his earnings, has to do with the State and the laws of the State, and has no bearing what so ever on what he does in his private religious life.
Your mistaken request to be convinced of his innocence of being a religious fanatic/fascistic creep belongs in another county where one is presumed guilty until proven innocent, but not here in America.
America ain’t easy baby, ain’t if fun!
Coming back at ya,
And if you can convince us that Erik Prince has made any indications that he wants to use his faith to criminally break the law, and or if he has made even the slightest indication that he would try and militarily take over the US government in an effort to force changes in the laws so he can force national conformity to his faith, like Muslims want to do, then you should certainly conflate the two, as Adam did in this deliberately provocative piece.
Otherwise, as the law is written, you (and who ever “us” is) are being dangerously reckless with the law by using insinuation as if they were facts that need to be argued otherwise.
This kind of thinking is dangerous, because as a man thinketh, so he is.
82 - Franco
#93 " bliffle
bliffle sez......."In fact, rationalization of ethical precepts with economic hoo hah is so deeply embedded in most peoples consciousness that they are simply unable to disentangle the two. And the result is that they always lie, dissemble, falsify information and cherry pick in order to ensure that their economic analysis comes out the right ethical hole."
One of the best reasons I have heard why the “big government” left progresses should be kept from incresing taxes to justify starting more programs to take care of us, because as they say, they know wants best for us.
83 - Dave Nalle
Some excellent points here Franco. I'm waiting to see if anyone comes up with a meaningful attempt at a rebuttal.
Dave
84 - bliffle
Rebut what? his tiresome use of outworn TV sitcom catch phrases?
85 - troll
rebuttal to #81: calling a person a Dobsonian 'religious fanatic' and 'fascist creep' is not claiming a breach of law as Franco assumes - and presumption of innocence has no clear meaning outside the 'courtroom'...especially in light of original sin
rebuttal to #82: why worry about taxes when the 'big government' right has shown that spending is not dependent on them
86 - Dave Nalle
Denial is not rebuttal.
And original sin? Give me a break.
Dave
87 - troll
...and calling my response a 'denial' doesn't make it less of a rebuttal - I avoided the overused term 'straw man argument' to describe Franco's comment
the point - gossip and presumption of guilt are pretty common in every day life and don't threaten the rule of law...at least not nearly as much as these mercenary foreign legions
....as for 'original sin' - I'm hoping that Franco will enjoy the reference as a good Christian
88 - Franco
#85 "troll
"Rebuttal to #81 calling a person a Dobsonian 'religious fanatic' and 'fascist creep' is not claiming a breach of law as Franco assumes"
You are corredt troll, they don’t. But I am not saying that they do, and no where have I said they did.
That is not the argument here, it’s apparent that you have missed it. My post #81 to handyguy’s post
#91#78 to my post #76, is where the heart of that argument lies if you are truly interested."and presumption of innocence has no clear meaning outside the 'courtroom'...especially in light of original sin"
I am really not sure what your point is troll, would you please elaborate.
89 - troll
Franco - having read the argument I ask: what does The Law have to do with an attack on Prince's religiosity - ?
there's nothing un-American about presuming that Prince is a toad
re 'presumption of innocence' and original sin - church dogma presumes that folks are guilty from the get go...hence the need for the Church and structured expiation
90 - handyguy
I am disagreeing with Dobson's politics, not his religion, Franco. And if Erik Prince shares his father's support for Focus on the Family et al, those are political beliefs, not religious beliefs. In any case, I can criticize Dobson [and if appropriate, Prince] without stepping on his religious freedom. Dobson certainly does more than his share of excoriating others.
I would think Dave would agree with me rather than you on this one, given his disdain for religious-political nut cases.
91 - Dave Nalle
I actually agree with both of you. If Prince shares his father's religious views I think it's quite unappealing, but at the same time I also think that since he's being hired to provide military auxiliaries rather than teach high school or write textbooks it's largely irrelvant. Would it matter to you if the guy you hired to pave your driveway was a snake-handling jesus freak or a whirling dervish?
Dave
92 - Martin Lav
I bet it matters to the Muslims his employees are shooting.
93 - Franco
#89 " October 11, 2007 @ 11:51AM " troll
"there's nothing un-American about presuming that Prince is a toad"
I repeat, I never said, nor even implied there was. It is not my argument.
The argument has to do with Adam Ash’s opinion piece that intentionally tries to criminalize Christians and free enterprise with the evil of murder and guile by associations within a Blackwater murder witch-hunt.
This is totally unrelated to presuming that Price is a toad. He may very well be, but this is not relevant to my contention no matter how hard to try and make it seem that way.
If you choose not to recognize the clear intentional criminaliztion being asserted in Adam Ash’s article Privatizing Murder, Or Blackwater: The Perfect Combo Of Christianity, Capitalism And Killing as trying to incriminate Christians and entrepreneurs as killers, then you will continue to miss the argument. If you purposely intend to miss it, that is you right, but if that is the case, go blow your denial up someone else’s ass. Your done here.
"re 'presumption of innocence' and original sin - church dogma presumes that folks are guilty from the get go...hence the need for the Church and structured expiation"
True, but in America we have a separation of Church and State to protect you troll from being forced to believe in the structured expiation of the Church.
The Church exists to punch the ticket on original sin, as the State, by its own laws, and the laws of the Church, can not do that. Just in the same way the Church can not over ride the law’s of the State, the State can not override the laws of the Church in this regard. For the same reasons the Jewish priests, using Pilot, tried and failed.
94 - moonraven
I am all for criminalizing Christians.
Never met one that wasn't a murderous hypocrite.
95 - A Sort-Of Concerned Citizen
I am all for criminalizing Christians.
Never met one that wasn't a murderous hypocrite.
Wow, maybe you should think that through a little more. I can understand them all being hypocrites, but murderous? I think you're being a little rash in saying something like that.
96 - duane
The raven speaks moonlight into the gloomy night of life.
--- borrowing from Jean Paul Richter
Mmmm ... the joy. Do go on.
97 - Colin
Well kids, as of an hour ago, it looks like they will get their day in court...
Iraqi families sue Blackwater in US
1 hour ago
WASHINGTON (AFP) " A US rights group announced Thursday it was filing a lawsuit against private security contractor Blackwater on behalf of a survivor and the families of three victims of a deadly September 16 shootout in Baghdad.
The suit in a Washington federal court accuses Blackwater of murder and war crimes and seeks unspecified damages, the Center for Constitutional Rights said.
98 - Franco
#90 " handyguy
I acknowledge your point, it is rational and I agreed with it. My arument has never been on that issue.
My argument has been on Andam Ash's "accusations" that are a world apart from "disagreements"
Adam Ash recklessly cast aside the rational assertion supporting the right to make "disagreement” and he replaced that with the irrational right to make “incriminating accusations of murder”.
If you can not discuss the distinction between one and the other, and why there is danger in that difference, then you and I can get now were.
99 - Dave Nalle
Martin Lav
I bet it matters to the Muslims his employees are shooting.
So you're actually saying that dead people care about the religion of the person who killed them?
That really makes no sense at all. Are they less dead if they're killed by an animist or a Buddhist? Do their souls get sucked out if a Voodoo Houngan kills them with a magic knife?
Dave
100 - Martin Lav
Nalle,
I'm sure some of them were only wounded or maimed, as I doubt even the fine security guards employed by Blackwater are perfect shots. After all it's not that easy to hit a moving target, especially those that are running away from you.
....and besides since you are admittedly half-brain dead anyway, even you know that the Muslims think all the driveway pavers we've hired are whirling dervishes.
101 - Martin Lav
"Blackwater goes beyond just being mercenaries, to have the best interests of the US at heart - far more so than the internationalists and socialists like Adam Ash and Naomi Wolf. They also do a pretty damned good job of what they're hired for."
Nalle
How would you know what they have in their hearts or even what our best interests are? Speaking of Whirling Dervish.....
Pretty good at shooting at unarmed civilians?
What is their chain of command?
Are these hired security guards part of the troop surge numbers?
102 - Dave Nalle
No, they're not part of the troop surge numbers. They've been there since before the surge. As for their chain of command, they do have one. They are answerable to their employers who in this case are the Department of State, who are answerable to Congress who are answerable to the people of the US.
As for shooting unarmed civilians, how do you know that to be the case? Are they guilty until proven innocent? They claim to have been fired on first.
And you can get a good idea what their motivations and interests are by reading their website and their other statements, but I'm sure actually knowing what they think is of no interest to you.
dave
103 - Dave Nalle
MR, Blackwater has been involved in 1800 missions in Iraq and there are about 5 where anyone they were guarding or any civilian was killed or injured. I challenge you to find any other group active there with that good a record.
You certainly can't claim as good a record for your Salafi buddies. They use civilians as human shields, after all.
Dave
104 - Franco
"There was definitely incoming small arms fire from insurgents" in the September 16 incident in Baghdad, founder and CEO Erik Prince told CNN's Wolf Blitzer on "Late Edition."
There was no "deliberate violence," committed by Blackwater employees, he added.
Prince on Sunday told CNN, "In the incident reports I've seen, at least three of our armored vehicles were hit by small arms fire, incoming, and one of them damaged, which actually delayed their departure from the traffic circle while they tried to rig a tow.
"So there was definitely incoming small-arms fire from insurgents."
He added, "I guarantee our guys weren't shooting at each other."
"In Baghdad, the most dangerous city in the world, to say that it was a callous, rampant, evil action, you know, when the guys get it right 99 out of 100 times and don't have to use any force or any violence at all, I think they are doing very well," he said.
Prince called the lawsuit "politically motivated" for "media attention," and rejected the depictions of his company.
We'll see what the FBI report comes up with, but I'm confident that the kind of people we have out there are proven military professionals," Prince said.
CNN
105 - Dave Nalle
Blackwater needs to do some more PR work to educate the US public. When people think of Mercenaries they think of the ex-foreign-legion types who were fighting in Angola and Rhodesia in the 70s. That's hardly what we're dealing with in Blackwater. It employes mostly US veterans and maintains a very high level of training and discipline. They've got their own impressive trainign facilities in South Carolina and they equip their men better than the US military does. Their Grizzly APC is much safer than a Humvee, for example.
Dave
106 - Franco
I agree Dave.
Ya know, there is something going on in Congress right now that is really weird.
They can’t halt funding of the war. So if they can ham string Blackwater and the like, it will leave the US military short handed?
Add to this, the Congress’s action against Turkey which IMO could be a backdoor into slow bleeding the war if Turkey cuts off our access roots through for supplying our troops. I understand 40% of what the troops need to maintain troop levels passes through or over Turkey. Now granted, the 1915 Armenian issue needs to be address, but why right NOW?
Do you think things are that crazy up on the hill
107 - Dave Nalle
I think the Amenian business is about the most transparent attempt to exert clumsy leverage I've ever seen. And the situation is made worse with the Turkish election. But I have to say that something needs to be done to bring the Turks in line. Chances are we're going to see a more or less autonomous Kurdish state - hell, we already have one. And a war between the Turks and the Kurds would be about the most disastrous thing that could happen right now.
Dave
108 - bliffle
Anyway, didn't Prince declare he was pulling all Blackwater guards out of Iraq?
And didn't the congressional investigators find that Blackwater initiated 80% of the gunfire exchanges they investigated?
Then, somewhere, I read that the contract average per Blackwater employee was about $445,000, which, allowing a $100k salary and 100% overhead, allows for a handsome profit for Mr. Prince.
109 - Dave Nalle
Anyway, didn't Prince declare he was pulling all Blackwater guards out of Iraq?
I would think that would put him in breech of contract.
And didn't the congressional investigators find that Blackwater initiated 80% of the gunfire exchanges they investigated?
I didn't see a hard number on that in the report, but the report did disingenuously claim they initiated more reports than the next largest two contractors combined, while omitting the fact that Blackwater has far more men in Iraq than those two contractors combined.
Then, somewhere, I read that the contract average per Blackwater employee was about $445,000, which, allowing a $100k salary and 100% overhead, allows for a handsome profit for Mr. Prince.
And you believe that profit is evil? I actually think the profit is lower than you suggest because the overhead is likely well over $100K.
Dave
110 - bliffle
Good thing Rumsfeld cut back combat pay for US soldiers from $150/month to $75 so we can pay the Blackwater bill.
Eric Prince was interviewed by Charlie Rose and he emphasized that he sees Blackwater as a training operation, not as supplying mercenaries. So, I bet he pulls his guards out and goes back to supplying 'advisors'.
111 - Dave Nalle
Good thing Rumsfeld cut back combat pay for US soldiers from $150/month to $75 so we can pay the Blackwater bill.
No, Bliffle. Rumsfeld increased the combat pay bonus BY $75 a mont, from $150 to $225. That's added on to normal service pay and any other special pay. And that's in addition to the $250 family separation bonus they are paid if they are deployed outside of their home base area and have a family.
The Bush administration has done more to increase military pay and benefits than any previous administration. One of the first things he did when taking office was to institute an immediate 5% pay raise for all military personnel, followed by an additional 2% per year since then.
Dave
112 - bliffle
"Rumsfeld increased the combat pay bonus BY $75 a mont, from $150 to $225."
Only after an uproar from military families. First he tried cutting combat bonus to save $150million/yr.
113 - Martin Lav
Blackwater is good at what they do that's for sure.
One diplomat is quoted as saying:
"all the progress we made while meeting with our Iraqi counterparts, seemed to have gone in the ditch along with all the cars that Blackwater personnel ran off the road on the way back to the airport".
Franco:
Quoting Prince as a reliable witness about his own mens performance is like Cheney quoting the New York Times to claim that Iraq was trying to acquire Yellowcake from Niger.
Gimme a break!
How's about the US Troops that actual arrived after Blackwater carnage, they claim the found no weapons, eye-witnesses reported no gun-fire and it seems that the attackers must have been rushing at the Blackwater Warriors with their cars in reverse, which would explain why their rear-windows were shot out.
Continue to peddle.....
114 - Martin Lav
Dave Nalle,
According to this, our contractors don't answer to the military command.
" Last week Paul Rieckhoff, an Iraq war combat veteran who directs Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, sketched for me the apocalypse to come. Should Baghdad implode, our contractors, not having to answer to the military chain of command, can simply “drop their guns and go home.” Vulnerable American troops could be deserted by those “who deliver their bullets and beans.” "
115 - Cindy
Dave (and the rest of you who posted here along the same lines, who know who you are)
Are you Ready to learn something about this experience now with Blackwater? I was going to write an article, but, not only don't I have time, I also think that if you reread your own comments here, in light of current knowledge, you (all of the 'you', as stated above) might learn something.
I doubt it. But, whatever...
116 - Cindy
Looking back at this article, from what we know now, Adam sure does have a lot on the ball.
117 - Cindy
Some other people...not so much.
118 - handyguy
The stories about Blackwater providing underage girls to orally service their mercenaries between missions is pretty shocking.