Cindy Sheehan's mourning has turned to questions. It was good of the President to have consoled her in mourning. It is wrong of the President to ignore her very public concerns and her very simple request.
Raw Story is talking about the article from 2004 which Matt Drudge is employing, with a Right attack-dog-wind beneath his wings [he got the report archive from Freepers]. The mission to attack is on - the objective is to discredit the mother of a fallen Iraqi soldier.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - MCH
Hhhmmm, I guess that makes sense. At least it would explain why you came up with all your phoney excuses, Nalle.
27 - Dave Nalle
MCH, the truth is the truth. Whether you like it or not doesn't matter even a tiny bit to me.
Dave
28 - EMT907
I'm intrigued that pointing out a person's contradiction is somehow spun around into "slander", meanwhile, that person's slander is championed.
It also fascinates me how the left completely ignores the demands by their own leaders of BJ Clinton to do something about the imminent threat of Saddam Hussein and his WMDs. BJ Clinton ran away to England and SOVIET Russia to avoid service in Vietnam. He's NEVER offered any explanation as to why those servicemen in the Mog weren't given the armor and equipment requested. He's NEVER expressed sympathy for those drug through the streets of Bakara Market. Not ONCE has he expressed real remorse for the "innocent civillians" killed in the Balkans. How many funerals did HE attend? How many caskets did HE allow to be filmed?
"Since Saddam Hussein refuses to comply with the U.N. resolutions, I support the use of military force either to compel compliance or to destroy, to the best of our ability, Iraq's capability to build and deliver weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Carl Levin, 1998
29 - EMT907
BTW,
Regarding Malkin's "telepathic connection". I consider that less of a "telepathic connection" than John Edwards supposedly channeling a baby in a mother's womb, wouldn't you say?
30 - gonzo marx
ummm..what WMD's?
still ain't found them
and what the fuck does Slick Willie have to do with it?
he's been gone since Jan 19, 2000
check your calendar, then shut off the Limbaugh...
k?
thanx
Excelsior!
31 - Dave Nalle
Gonzo, 500,000 TONS of yellowcake. What are you going to do with that besides make a hell of a lot of dirty bombs and start a nuclear program?
Dave
32 - Dave Nalle
Just to give you a visual on that, Gonzo - that's enough yellowcake that if the barrels were stacked end to end they'd stretch from Maine to Texas. We could come visit each other if we walked on the line of barrels.
Dave
33 - gonzo marx
/sigh
we gotta do this again?
even the Shrub made jokes about it at a Press Club dinner
you remember..all the nice slides, with him say.."are there WMD's here under the dining room table?..no....how about here (insert WH pic)..."
the claims as opposed to the actual facts found are in stark contrast...
now look at comment 28, and then read my response
nuff said?
Excelsior!
34 - EMT907
"still ain't found them"
You mean that mustard gas and Sarin don't count? Neither do the missiles that were fired into the desert and the Silkworm that hit the mall in Kuwait? That doesn't count for anything?
What does BJ have to do with it? Apparently nothing since he couldn't be bothered to fulfill the demands of the liberal senators. And while the liberals whine about us giving the biological agents to Saddam and swear that NoKo is a bigger threat, who was it that gave the nuclear material to NoKo? What about the U.N. monitors of NoKo? What about the U.N. cameras installed to make sure NoKo wasn't doing anything wrong with the nuclear material?
What does BJ have to do with it? Nothing, exept exemplify the glaring hypocrisy of the liberal left.
35 - EMT907
Furthermore, the left needs to stop asking what the family thinks. They need to stop searching for soldiers with opinions that match their ideology and just ask the troops in general what they think. That is if the kook liberal left isn't afraid of what they would find out.
36 - anonyMoses
Challenge accepted. Let all the soldiers speak out! In fact, I think we all should join hands and say in a clear voice: "Let our children speak"!
Cindy Sheehan doesn't have that option, so she has to do it herself.
The question seems pretty simple. Do we want our children, the soldiers, to be able to give THEIR opinion on the matter, or do we not? And if unable, by proxy through the next of kin?
You can bet they have been indoctrinated to say and think a certain way, but if given the platform to state their full-throated opinion, without fear of retaliation...what would they say? I suspect we shall never know. Until it is far too late.
Dave
37 - Zack
To all the conservatives/republicans on this blog: Your SPIN never ceases to amaze me. I realize facts are tough to deal with - particularly when you are trying to defend an inarticulate moron president who wears Christ on his sleeve. Christ... who advocated peace, love, forgiveness. Tell me where Christ ever advocated preemptive strikes?
Regarding Cindy Sheehan: I didn't think you low lifes would be able to come up with ways to discredit her. I was wrong. SPIN it all you want, but at the end of the day, her story is a simple one: HER SON DIED IN A WAR. AND THE IDIOT WHO SENT HER SON TO THAT WAR HAS CHANGED HIS RATIONALE FOR DOING SO. FIRST IT WAS WMD. THEN IT WAS AL QUEDA TIES. NOW IT'S TO BRING FREEDOM TO IRAQ. SHE'S PISSED OFF AND SHE WANTS ANSWERS.
I suppose the traditional thing for a "Gold Star Mom" to do would be to convince herself her son died for a noble cause. But what if she hasn't been able to dull her pain with that?
38 - Zack
And a few more things: Even Condaliar Rice has PUBLICLY acknowledged the "yellow cake" intelligence was incorrect. Here's a suggestion: I know you consider "Farenheit:9/11" to be leftist propaganda, but try checking it out anyway. Ignore Michael Moore's commentary if you want. In fact, ignore everything but this: THE SECTION WHERE EVERY TOP BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL IS QUOTED AS SAYING IRAQ IS AN IMMINENT THREAT TO US BECAUSE OF OF THEIR WMD'S AND SUCH. Again, I know facts are hard to deal with for Republicans these days, but...
Also, read the CIA report (as I have) on whether or not Saddam Hussein was connected to the 9/11 attack. No? You don't want to do that? OK, then I'll give you the Reader's Digest version: HE WASN'T!!!!!!
And finally, while you right wingers love to bullshit yourselves about how well the war is being handled while the death toll (and price tag) keeps mounting: Watch tapes of Cheerleader George W. Bush telling us how excited we should all be that "Freedom is on the march in Iraq"
Now I don't know any of you people personally, but even if the "mission" in Iraq does succeed, I KNOW that not one of you were sitting around your house 4 years ago saying "you know... my life would be so good if we could just turn Iraq into a democracy".
And I know you'll probably SPIN that and say 9/11 made democracy in Iraq a priority, but in your heart of hearts you don't really believe it.
You'll say you do because, like ALL REPUBLICANS, you are married to an ideology. Bush is your sorry excuse for a quarterback and you just wouldn't be good upstanding republicans if you admitted he's one of this biggest fuck ups in modern history. And that he's gotten 1800 of our troops killed, thousands more maimed, caused the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi CIVILIANS, inflicted unfathomable destruction on a once sovereign nation, and cost our government $300 billion to pull off this spectacular feat. And... that worst of all, the outcome of this debacle is at best still SHAKY.
39 - wil
anonyMoses writes:
"Challenge accepted. Let all the soldiers speak out! In fact, I think we all should join hands and say in a clear voice: "Let our children speak"
And here's my cue:
As a member of the Armed Forces of these United States, I shall indeed speak out on this issue.
The war in Iraq is a joke, albeit a very unfunny one. The banality of the CnC's justifications for starting it are more frightening than pitiful.
There are no WMD's in Iraq.
Saddam was never a threat to us, nor was he in any way responsible for the tragedy of 9/11. Oh, sure, he was a REALLY BAD MAN, but only if you were a Kurd or a Shiite.
And he certainly didn't have ties to al-Qaeda. Last I checked, he hated fundamentalists about as much as he hated Kurds and Shiites.
Now that I as a member of the US Armed Forces have weighed in on this subject, I invite the chickenhawk neo-cons to vent their ire toward me at their own leisure: I certainly love being lectured by Proud Fuckin' Civilians about duty, honor and country.
40 - wil
Oh, and one last thing:
Nobody ever gave a shit about the democratization of Iraq prior to onset of the war.
41 - Dave Nalle
>>FIRST IT WAS WMD. THEN IT WAS AL QUEDA TIES. NOW IT'S TO BRING FREEDOM TO IRAQ.<<
And you don't think that any or all of those reasons are good things?
As for the WMDs, even putting aside the sarin gas and mustard gas and other small traces still left in the country, might I just mention once again the 500,000 TONS of yellowcake which were actually FOUND in Iraq, a substance which can only be used to develop fissionable materials or used in building dirty bombs. That's enough WMD material to fill the pentagon, the capital building and the white house and still have plenty left over.
>>Saddam was never a threat to us, nor was he in any way responsible for the tragedy of 9/11. Oh, sure, he was a REALLY BAD MAN, but only if you were a Kurd or a Shiite. <<
And the deaths hundreds of thousands of Kurds and Shiites don't matter because they are (pick one):
Darker skinned than us?
A different religion from us?
Inconvenient?
Not really human?
And let's not forget the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis of all races who are believed to have starved because Saddam pocketed the oil for food money and didn't spend it on food with his "Let them Eat Palaces" policy.
Yep, Saddam sure was a 'necessary evil'. No reason to do anything. Look the other way. Whistle a merry tune.
Dave
42 - Nancy
Millions of darker-than-us people have been slaughtered by their own governments in Africa, Dave, but I don't notice Smirk rushing over there to save THEM & ensure their freedom & democracy. Why? Well, obviously, because none of them are sitting on top of vast oil reserves. I'd bet any money if oil were found tomorrow in Zaire, Smirk & Co. would decide that the people of western africa had suffered enough & now deserved instant & unqualified blessings of democracy courtesy of the US. Bush is as transparent as a baggy, & his credibility - even with the idiot assholes who voted for him - twice - is falling. Wil is absolutely correct, in that prior to the WMD excuse falling through, neither Smirk nor anyone else give a shit about Iraqi democracy or anything else. And frankly, I STILL don't. So there. If Bush is so excised by Iraqi democracy, perhaps he'd do better to quit here, go over there, become a citizen, and get elected to the Iraqi government, hey? Ha - fat chance.
43 - fly in the ointment
Dave, if you check the infant mortality rates and population figures listed in the CIA World Fact Book for Iraq in 1992 and then look at the same figures for 1993, you'll see the well being of the average Iraqi was never really our top priority over there.
I’ll provide the link and information below:
Iraq People 1992
http://www.theodora.com/wfb/1992/iraq/iraq_people.html
SOURCE: 1992 CIA WORLD FACTBOOK
***Population: 19,524,700
Population Growth Rate: 3.90
Birth rate per 1000: 46
Death rate per 1000: 7
Net migration rate per 1000: NA
***Infant mortality rate per 1000: 66
Life expectancy (M) years: 66
Life expectancy (F) years: 68
Iraq People 1993
http://www.theodora.com/wfb/1993/iraq/iraq_people.html
SOURCE: 1993 CIA WORLD FACTBOOK
***Population: 18,445,800
Population Growth Rate: 3.70
Birth rate per 1000: 45
Death rate per 1000: 9
Net migration rate per 1000: NA
***Infant mortality rate per 1000: 84
Life expectancy (M) years: 62
Life expectancy (F) years: 64
The asterisks by population and infant mortality rate are mine. The drop in life expectancy is also telling. This is not to say that the drop in population translates directly to dead Iraqis. Many fled to refugee camps in Iran.
Sadam played a role in these numbers, in that his actions did prompt the economic sanctions Iraq was under when this happened.
The sanctions that our media, like al-Iraqya tv, now refer exclusively as the 'U.N. sanctions'
I think we all know whose idea the sanctions really were.
And I don't think any of us really believes we're in Iraq to help
P.S.
For those of you who say mentioning these facts only encourages terrorism, I would remind you that the SAUDIS, PAKISTANIS, and MORROCANS who have actually carried out the attacks on Western soil have many bizarre motivations, and the health and welfare of Iraqi Shi'ites probably doesn't even make their list.
In other words, the terrorists are gonna do what they're gonna do, whether we own up to what we did and find better ways of handling people like Sadam or not.
44 - fly in the ointment
And I don't mean this as an attack on U.S. soldiers. I'm merely saying that we have to behave in a better way from now on so when they are called on to sacrifice again, it will be for the best of reasons, not just any reason that'll spin.
45 - fly in the ointment
Last but not least, for those of you unfamiliar with the dates, the oil for food program was started in 1995.
The scandals and corruption found in the program are real, and need to be addressed, but the program itself SAVED
hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. Our concern, again, is a little belated.
And now, back to the actual subject of the thread:
Should A powerful man have to face a mother grieveing as the result of his policy?
They ALL should have to face the mothers grieving as a result of their policies.
46 - JohnnieAngel
Here is the deal many people have lost sight of through the efforts of the current 'Powers that Be'...
Yellocake is not a nuclear bomb. It is not against international treaty to have yellowcake. It is an end result of ONE process for extracting Vanaduim from ore. I lived in Utah for the past 2 years...there is an International Uranium Corp mill there.....you can gat a tour and see the yellowcake laying on the mill floor in piles.
It needs a huge amount of processing to bring it to pure uranium, and then a huge amount more to refine it to the isotope that can be uses for a core...THEN you need to build a bomb.
Since when does the USA invade other countries because they may or may not have yellowcake? Since when is this a reason to kill over 100,000 civilians and 2000 plus or minus Americans?
and spend over $330,000,000,000 doing it?
Since when is it wrong unpatriotic or even questionable for a mother to want answers to the question "Why did my som die" when he was sent to a war that was begun on a foundation of lies by our government? Isn't this the sort of thing the Nazi's or the USSR was condemned by us for?
Since when is it acceptable and even approved to vent our fury on a country that did nothing to us?
Since when is it a reason to invade a country for then to have chemical weapons WE gave them to begin with?
Since when is it acceptable to imprison civilian human beings...some kidnaped from other countries, and hold them for this long without being charged or tried?
The problem as I se it is that too many people in this country approve of these things....or mabe they just shout the loudest.
We are leaving our morals and values in the dirt to make profits for the corperations at the wheel in Washington.
This mother has every right to ask why. SHe has every right to receive an answer.
Our brave troops have gone where they were sent and are serving with honor. The problem is...they are also being misused and we are being lied to in order to keep them there....they are dieing faster and faster...and the only reason is that the corperations behind this are making vast profits/
...and bin Ladin is still out there.
Do you realize it took us less time to enter the second world war and finish it than we have spent looking for one man?
47 - MCH
Good points all, JohnnieAngel.
It really would be interesting to see how gung-ho the likes of Dave Nalle, R.J. (Bobby) Elliott and Michelle Malkin would be if they actually had to serve over there.
48 - Dave Nalle
>>Millions of darker-than-us people have been slaughtered by their own governments in Africa, Dave, but I don't notice Smirk rushing over there to save THEM & ensure their freedom & democracy. Why? Well, obviously, because none of them are sitting on top of vast oil reserves.<<
Actually, many of them ARE sitting on vast oil reserves, so you missed your mark here. The actual reason is national interest. We have something to gain by establishing a presence in Iraq above and beyond helping the Iraqi people. In Darfur there is nothing to be gained as a nation except a good feeling. The president's first obligation is to pursue the best interests of the nation, and getting into Darfur isn't it. In addition, our unstated policy is that Darfur is a European problem because their companies and government created the mess, so they ought to be the ones to clean it up.
>>neither Smirk nor anyone else give a shit about Iraqi democracy or anything else.<<
Anyone sensible and informed was in favor of Iraqi democracy. That may not describe most of the American people, but it certainly includes a lot of political leaders, people in foreign policy jobs, and anyone familiar with the region.
Dave
49 - Dave Nalle
MCH, I'm not gung-ho now. I doubt I'd be any more or less gun-ho if I had to serve in Iraq. I'd just do my job and do it as well as I could.
Not that I'd ever actually be likely to serve in a front line position in Iraq if I did join the military. Had I joined it would have been a career choice made many years ago, and I'd likely be teaching at Annapolis now as my grandfather did, or captaining a ship as the third to do so in my family this century and I'd be nowhere near any actual fighting.
Dave
50 - MCH
"...if I did...if I had...had I...I'd likely be...would have been..."
Shoulda, coulda, woulda...all adds up to the same thing, Nalle:
DIDN'T.
51 - Tom Connolly
This gang of thugs passing for an American presidential administration has no shame because it has no character. Any oppositon will be put down just like Germany in the 30's. For the most part they are chicken hawks drunk with power and knowing none of their kids or anybody they knows kids will end up in this mess.
52 - sunshine
It does not surprise me how the American Criminal Government has always with citizens of all over the world. Latin American countries have been raided, humiliated, destroyed and its people have been abused in all the ways, they have been deprived of their richess, values, pride, etc by the American Government since the creation and independende of our countries. Now the American citizens can see and understand the pain of parents in other countries who lost their children like in Argentina, Chile, Paraguay, Ecuador, Colombia, Venezuela, Central America because of the greed of the American elite. WAKE UP AMERICANS, now your battle have to start to defend your rights, pride, and life from the tirany of your rulers.
53 - sue
Dallas, you said that "The strangest thing to me is that if her child were such a good guy, as she states, that he always thought of others first, believed in Christ, participated fully in church, she should be comforted by the fact the he is in Heaven with his Savior now."
Surely if she is a Christian then she believes what the Inspired Scriptures tell us about death? And they say that the dead are "conscious of nothing at all", and that, when we die, our thoughts "do perish".
Secondly, Jesus said that the meek would inherit "the earth".
If he had meant heaven wouldn't be have said so?
He also said that we were to lay down our arms, and to do good to those that harm us.
Can a follower of Christ ever take part in war?
regards Sue
54 - Effendi
Very Interesting read here.
It is extremely Ironic that the people who blindly support W are just like him. Americans who have shirked their duty or have been too afraid or too "Special" to serve their country. I am a US Special Forces Soldier and I am FOR the American people, I am not "WITH" a blind betrayal of my fellow Americans. I am embarrassed and ashamed of those of you attempting to discredit this poor mother. You say idiotic things like "At first she supported and praised W, but now she is critical of him". I have absolute ZERO respect for any of you people who have one unkind thing to say about this mother who gave the ultimate sacrifice..her child. For all of you Chicken-Hawks out their blindly supporting W I have a question for you. IF this war is so just and IF this is the best course for the American people why is the president afraid to face this mother and explain to her how sacrificing her son was in the best interest of America. She is in Pain and it is turning to anger and she has NO SOLACE to turn around and say to herself, "At least he died protecting America" she knows in her heart that he died for the interest of Oil or whatever those who hold the strings desire. I do not care to debate those unworthy of debate who defend the actions of W just because he is an American president. If he does NOT hold the best interest of my family and friends at heart than he is AGAINST the American people and a TRAITOR to those he claims to represent. When I hear him say that as Americans we are either "With US or Against US" I wonder who "US" really is because it seems more and more to me that his "US" is not the same as my "US". MY "US" is the Great people that Made America great, the people who gave me the greatest country in the world to grow up in. The people who want to raise their children in the same awesome fashion we were raised. I'm sorry but I just don't believe that a bunch of Arabs hate us because we are free, When I was a strapping young Paratrooper they told us the same thing about the Soviets. About how they all wanted to see us dead, turns out they have children too and have no more interest in dying than we do. If the president has nothing to hide and he truly believes that what he is doing is the right thing than he better take Miss Sheehan in his arms and console her for her loss. Because as a soldier I am looking at my Commander in Chief wondering if he would make My mother stand out in the Texas heat for days on end waiting for an answer as to why I was killed for him. It makes me reconsider how much I would do for him knowing in my heart that he would disrespect my mother. People like Dave probably were raised to defend the good ole USA right or wrong, problem is that this is not a partisan right or left thing, we are ALL Americans here and these re-directions towards Bill Clinton are so grade school I can barely believe I am reading them. You people should be embarrassed to even bring up something so unconnected. You are either WITH US "The American People" or you are against US...that goes for you to Mr bush!!
Scott!!
55 - A rope leash
Those who know war are the last to want it.
There are many opportunities today in Iraq, and they are not just military...companies like Brown and Root are hiring civlians of all stripes for duties in the war zone.
If you have never served in the military, or if you have never lived in a war zone, then you really don't know anything about war. Chickenhawks are full of excuses as to why they never served...but the fact is that there is still plenty of time for them to get over there and do their part. If not them, then perhaps they should encourage their young to do so.
Otherwise, who cares what you think? Anyone can repeat the particular spin of events that soothes them, and call it "correct". If you've never had a drill sergeant breathing down your neck, or a mortar chasing up your backside, why do you think you are informed enough about war to make an educated statement about it?
So, this lady is incensed at the pResident, and the Republican borg just can't understand why. Talk about desperation! The Repubs have had five years to really screw things up, and now that they have, they just can't see how anyone could be outraged. It's like any other criminal that's guilty of anything...deny, spin, make excuses...but never admit to being guilty of anything but good intentions. It's bullshit. A real man recognizes his mistakes, and makes ammends for those who were wronged by them.
It's not too late to make the sacrifice and "serve your country". If you are not willing to put your ass where your mouth is, then how can anyone take you seriously?
56 - norad_save_us
YA See.......You "liberals" dont understand that in the "post 911 era" we need a new JANE FONDA.Cindy Sheehan is now an Enemy Combatant.I mean, how dare this woman question our King,its like you guys think she has a right to.This is "post 911 america", either youre WIDUSERAGINSTUS.Look you guys,I know for a fact that Cindy isnt patriotic because she speaks badly of our SAVIOR BUSH.She doesnt even own a HUMVEE,you cant be anymore of a hippie tree hugger than that.......blah blah blah bla.Heres the real deal you neocon maggots....EMPEROR GLUTEUS MAXIMUS is not human and has no soul. To the Secret Service and their Chimperial Commander...please arrest Cindy Sheehan...I would love for the whole world to see that...please oh please oh please...let the whole world see what "MURIKA" has become!
57 - Dave Nalle
>>Shoulda, coulda, woulda...all adds up to the same thing, Nalle:
DIDN'T.<<
And that's my choice in a free country, MCH. You should respect my choice just as I respect yours. But you're not big on respect are you, because you're pretty much just a childish, one-note bully.
Get over it. Do something useful instead.
Dave
58 - joshua martin
Shame on all these people who are bad mouthing Cindy Sheehan. It is unfathomable. The right wingers in this country whose first instinct is to attack anyone who disagrees with them are dispicable, ignorant cowards. I AM A VETERAN OF 2 DIFFERENT BRANCHES OF THE US ARMED FORCES AND I AM A PROUD AMERICAN LIBERAL!!!!!! This administration is the worst, most corrupt, most inept, ever in our history, and no matter what he does, no matter how bad he makes things for our country, he will be defended by people who refuse to think for themselves. He is not God's man. He is a liar and a fake, and he laughs at you who support him, and mocks you like a childish bully everytime the cameras are turned off. People like Cindy Sheehan made America s great as she was until Bush came to DC and caused the world to hate us. Bush is a coward and a liar.
59 - usedtoberight
It makes no difference if you are democratic or republican, the real separation is between Thinkers and Sheeple. It just so happens that the majority of sheeple fall into the right-wing catagory. Buffoons too proud and too ignorant to admit when they were wrong. Kind of like "Good Ol' W." I voted for him the first time around, I was a die hard republican, I hated Clinton. After four years of Bush's shit, I am an ex-republican who can honestly say I would love to have them repeal the restriction on term limits because I WOULD VOTE FOR CLINTON IN A HEARTBEAT. Not his wife, just the real deal Bill Clinton. I'd rather hear about a presidential BJ any day over watching gas prices inflate like so many hot air balloons. Do you right-wing sheeple not see the direct correllation between rising gas prices and the people reaping the benefits of those rising gas prices? Its Bush, Cheney & Co. fleecing America. I don't know about you, but I hate taking it up the backside with no lube. Did they give you lube? Is that why you go along with this? Lucky Bastards. Oh, to be ignorant.
60 - MCH
Dittos, comments 54 and 55;
For more info on those of us who've served and are opposed to this invasion, see:
Veterans Against the Iraq War at www.vaiw.org/vet
-and-
Iraq Veterans Against the War at www.ivaw.net/
For more data on Chickenhawks and GW Bush's desertion during the Nam War, see;
www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks/html
-and-
www.aolbush.com
Scott, thankyou for your service to our country.
- MCH, Vietnam era vet, USN '70-74
"Some gave all, all gave some."
61 - usedtoberight
Oh by the way...let Sheehan speak her piece. I'm sure its nothing compared to the tongue lashings Bush has received from Laura, so what is he afraid of? Here's Mr. Big-Bad Everything about Texas is Billy-Badass Bush and he's afraid to talk for 5 minutes to a little old lady from California. What a man. What a leader. What a wuss.
62 - Cannibal
JohnnieAngel made very pertinate comments and only forgot to mention one very important fact: Iraq has hugh deposits of yellow cake and would in no way need to purchase this material from an outside sorce.
Dave Nalle you are so full of shit, I can smell you in Denver. You refuse to accept the fact that you were suckered into this war just like the rest of us, and have failed to address the fact that the lies of your misguided hero have killed thousands of people needlessly. You also stated:
"MCH, I'm not gung-ho now. I doubt I'd be any more or less gun-ho if I had to serve in Iraq. I'd just do my job and do it as well as I could.
Not that I'd ever actually be likely to serve in a front line position in Iraq if I did join the military. Had I joined it would have been a career choice made many years ago, and I'd likely be teaching at Annapolis now as my grandfather did, or captaining a ship as the third to do so in my family this century and I'd be nowhere near any actual fighting."
Looks to me like you think you are too good to be on the frontlines. I'm sure your relatives that did serve, if you really have any that have, would be very proud of you. Ha!
There is an old saying about how to end all war, put the people that declare it and support it, right up front.
Dave Nalle, suck my pus tube, you brainwashed cum bucket!
63 - Dave Nalle
Reading back over the last few comments I have to say that this thread is degenerating into the ravings of the emotionally outraged and rationally bankrupt and that this seems to cause people to be unable to use punctuation or paragraphs. And of course, when unable to come up with any intelligent arguments they fall back on calling people 'chickenhawks' because moveon.org told them that would make people shut up and not try to counter their ravings.
Unlike most of you, I've lived as a civilian in a war zone - and as a child for that matter. I've played next to mine fields and in bombed out buildings and been under the guns of massed tanks. I've also lived in countries where repressive governments ruled, where secret police tailed you and bugged your apartment and could snatch you off the street for questioning. I've known people who were 'disappeared' and never seen again. Maybe that gives me a better perspective on some of these situations than people who've been in the military and only seen war from that limited perspective, because I've seen not only what happens to a country during war, but also what happens to the people of a country when no one can or will stand up for them and they don't have the ability to stand up for themselves.
Think about it.
Dave
64 - Nancy
That's interesting - where did you grow up?
65 - usedtoberight
Dave Nalle: ******Unlike most of you, I've lived as a civilian in a war zone - and as a child for that matter. I've played next to mine fields and in bombed out buildings and been under the guns of massed tanks. I've also lived in countries where repressive governments ruled, where secret police tailed you and bugged your apartment and could snatch you off the street for questioning. I've known people who were 'disappeared' and never seen again*****
This kind of sounds like my neighborhood - Any Town USA - Post Patriot Act
66 - Dave Nalle
>>That's interesting - where did you grow up?<<
Syria, Iran and Jordan in the 1960s and then Russia in the 1970s.
And believe me, the Patriot Act is a far, far cry from the freecom of oppression enjoyed by Savak or the KGB - undesirable though many of its provisions are.
Dave
67 - usedtoberight
I'm not ignorant...Not blatantly anyways. But I would say, for the Neocons in charge of our country, the Patriot Act is a step in that direction, yes? And you support them? You call yourself an American. LET THE WOMAN TALK TO BUSH!
68 - Bush is a FuckingAsshole
What does Cindy expect from a tried and true War Criminal?
The whole Bushladen gang needs to be tried for treason and violating the espionage act.
69 - Mneedes
The patriot act is the first step. Learning from the Israelis to shoot first then ask questions later (ala the De Menezes) shooting in Britian is next. This is happening in this country.
Our country is failing, due to both the liberals and flag conservatives being too corrupt to follow the traditions of our country's forefathers.
"Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin
70 - Dave Nalle
>>Looks to me like you think you are too good to be on the frontlines. I'm sure your relatives that did serve, if you really have any that have, would be very proud of you. Ha!<<
Every one of my uncles and my father served in WW2 or Korea and they were mostly decorated heroes, including one who was a Marine fighter pilot ace and one who was a forward observer at Anzio. My grandfathers were an Admiral and a Commander in the navy and served in both WW1 and WW2. Not one of the kids in my generation on either side - and I have a lot of first cousins - was in the military, despite the fact that it's a family tradition. The fact is that the 'call to service' that existed in my parents and grandparents generation just wasn't there when we were of military age in the 1970s and 1980s. It's not that we were afraid to serve or unwilling to serve, the fact is that there wasn't a NEED for people of that generation to serve in the military. The military was tiny and there were no wars to motivate people to join up. If you join the military you want to at least feel that you're doing it for a reason, and with no one to fight and the country safe from attack, what reason did anyone without a strong personal interest in a military career have for joining during the post-vietnam era?
Dave
71 - rebelyell
I'd like to respond to comment #'s 39 and 54.
Wil, i've noticed nobody has responded to your comment so, i will.
Thank you.
As a "Proud Fuckin' Civilian", i think the mind set of those who have volunteered to protect the freedoms of my loved ones and myself are of paramount importance. You are protecting our freedoms, right?
I understand you’re a little disgruntled over having been lied to and being asked to accomplish a definitive action against an ideology but nobody said it would be easy.
I only hope that if (Goodness Forbid) you are ever tasked to actually DEFEND your homeland, you won't let this little episode sour your enthusiasm. Again, i thank you.
Scott!!, i thank you also. You took the thoughts right off the tips of my fingers.
OK, The REAL pawns in this geopolitical game have spoken....Y`all try spinning these boys why don't ya?
rebelyell....15 year veteran (yeah, took that damn long to wake up)
72 - Brad
Bush does as he is told, and he is being told by his grown-up handlers not to visit with Sheehan. She might have better luck trying to talk to Cheney, who is obviously more autonomous.
Yeah, I voted for Bush twice. I could kick myself.
73 - Dave Nalle
>>But I would say, for the Neocons in charge of our country, the Patriot Act is a step in that direction, yes?<<
The majority of Democrats also voted for the Patriot Acts I and II and for renewing them. In fact, the few amendments proposed to limit the scope of the acts this past session came from Republicans.
>> And you support them?<<
Not me, I think they're evil rat bastards.
>> You call yourself an American. LET THE WOMAN TALK TO BUSH!<<
The woman in question DID talk to Bush, extensively. I agree that he ought to meet privately with her again. If her concerns are purely personal he has an obligation to discuss them with her. If, as seems to be the case, she's just trying to use this as a publicity stunt to increase her marketability as an activist, then meeting with her serves no good purpose. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Bush has offered to meet her privately and she refused - she wants a public confrontation and he has no reason or obligation to cooperate with that.
>>What does Cindy expect from a tried and true War Criminal? <<
Bush has been tried and convicted of war crimes? Do fill me in on the details.
>>The whole Bushladen gang needs to be tried for treason and violating the espionage act.<<
Which is a felony, but specifically not an act of treason.
>>"Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin<<
Nice to see someone actually get that quote right for a change.
Dave
74 - Jude Nagurney Camwell
I've lived as a civilian in a war zone - and as a child for that matter. I've played next to mine fields and in bombed out buildings and been under the guns of massed tanks. I've also lived in countries where repressive governments ruled, where secret police tailed you and bugged your apartment and could snatch you off the street for questioning. I've known people who were 'disappeared' and never seen again. Maybe that gives me a better perspective on some of these situations than people who've been in the military and only seen war from that limited perspective, because I've seen not only what happens to a country during war, but also what happens to the people of a country when no one can or will stand up for them and they don't have the ability to stand up for themselves.
Dear Dave,
I understand your point of view, but we live in the United States of America. It hasn't been like that here because we have a Constitution that is supposed to give democracy the best name in the business of "individual freedom". The Patriot act was not mentioned in my original opinion column. I'm sure your views on the Patriot Act are worthy of attention, but I'd prefer we didn't stray too far...and that we didn't call eachother distatsteful names (for anyone who has done that). I think we're all capable of mature discussion - so let's have it...and keep it on topic, if you please.
This is about Cindy Sheehan, and in this, the allegedly most free and democratic Republic in the world, a Mom of a dead soldier being handcuffed and taken away as a National Security threat brings about images of those very oppressive countries in which you claim to have grown up, Dave. I do not accept this, as an American and I don't think anyone should.
75 - Dave Nalle
I wasn't the one who brought up the Patriot Act. Take that up with the people who did.
And as I indicated in my last comment I don't think Cindy Sheehan should be persecuted and I don't think she CAN be prosecuted even under the Patriot Act, unless she made some sort of direct terroristic threat against the president.
I think she has every right to protest, but there are laws in Texas against vagrancy and creating a public nuisance and trespassing, and if she's violating those or if she made some sort of credible threat then she does have a legal problem.
But if it's a peaceful protest on public property then more power to her.
Dave