Americans are going to learn all about the Parthian Shot in the next year and a half - from the folks who invented it.
I normally stay away from subjects like Iraq. To put it bluntly, it wasn't my war. It wasn't fought for my benefit. And this article is not meant to justify the actions of previous American administrations in attacking that unfortunate country over the last 18 years.…
Article comments
26 - Ruvy
"No Americans ever died to keep Jews safe - NOT EVER!"
you know that's completely false, right?
No, zing, I know that is the bitter truth. Americans didn't go to fight Hitler because they gave a damn about Jews - they fought Hitler because Hitler constituted a threat to the United States.
On occasion, the United States protested the barbaric treatment of Jews by Russians or Arabs. But soldiers were never sent to protect Jews or Jewish property. That's a fact, dude, whether you like it or not.
how many Jews have died to keep Americans safe? you tell me.
I don't know the exact numbers, zing, but all those Jews who died in the Revolutionary War, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam all died to keep Americans safe. You can add Desert Storm and the Iraq war if you think it's relevant, but frankly, those were imperial adventures your government indulged in, wasting your money. In any event, I'll let you look up the numbers. You can find these numbers at the website of the Jewish Veterans of Foreign Wars, if it matters to you.
To be blunt with you, MY concern is how many Jews died to protect Jewish lives. It's time we stopped wasting our blood on you.
27 - roger nowosielski
But the Jews who died in World War II, for example, didn't die as Jews but as Americans.
28 - zingzing
horseshit, ruvy. why is it that jews fighting in the american army can decide their own reasons for fighting, while americans fighting in the american army can't decide their reasons?
plenty of americans in ww2 went over there to fight what hitler stood for, which includes the kind of thinking that created the holocaust.
if you want to pretend you know the heart of every american that fought to free europe and the jews from hitler/nazi germany, you just go ahead.
even you have to admit that you're being really damn ridiculous at this point.
29 - roger nowosielski
Good distinction, zing. Why American went to war is one thing; the motivation of the different individuals who either volunteered or got drafted is another.
30 - roger nowosielski
Correction: "America"
31 - Ruvy
Look, zing;
Most American soldiers who fought in WWII, for example, were drafted. Not all, but most. Most soldiers did not know about the death camps of the Nazis either. The American government never made a stink about them. Some Jews knew, and they went to war in Europe spoiling to kill every damned German they saw. But the vast majority did not. They did their duty as citizens, fighting to protect the nation they lived in.
When Jewish soldiers did find out about the death camps - by coming across them - they became enraged at Germans. But the American commanders did what they could to see to it that Jewish soldiers did not massacre German civilians in vengeance.
I would be less than honest if I said that non-Jewish soldiers, upon finding these death camps, didn't become enraged. A lot of them also wanted to massacre German civilians in vengeance.
Now the question arises, "should the American commanders have allowed American soldiers, particularly Jewish ones, to massacre German civilians in retaliation for the barbarity the Germans did upon Jews?"
I leave you to work that one out yourself.
However, BOTTOM LINE. In all the wars I mentioned above, Jews died to protect Americans. So stop bitching and moaning like a sick cow.
32 - roger nowosielski
Ruvy may have a point there, zing, because concentration camps were far from common knowledge.
Whether the American Jews who have fought and died thought did so as Jews or as Americans, that's another story. The matter of the person's (primary) personal identity may have varied from individual to individual.
I'm willing to bet that many Jewish-Americans believed themselves to be Americans first, and Jewish second.
33 - zingzing
ruvy: "However, BOTTOM LINE. In all the wars I mentioned above, Jews died to protect Americans. So stop bitching and moaning like a sick cow."
no, ruvy, the bottom line is that you said that no american has ever died trying to help the jewish people. and i said that's bullshit. i'm sure jews (american jews) died protecting america, but to say that no american has ever put him or herself on the line for the jewish people is complete and utter malarkey.
one could say that--forgive me for bringing it up--those americans who died on 9/11 died because of america sticking up for israel. the image of america in the middle east is largely colored by our stance towards israel, and we've had to pay for it many times.
so for you to say that no american has ever died for the jewish people is dishonest, sickening, arrogant and a lie.
34 - Ruvy
So, zing, since you pretend at knowing history, tell me about all these Americans who died to protect Jews. Name places, battles, wars. Where did these events occur? In Shakespeare, maybe?
American soldiers never fought to protect the Jewish State; they never fought to stop (or end) a pogrom; they never fought (as in picking up rifles and shooting) to end discrimination against Jews. [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]
35 - Ruvy
BTW, zing, just to get it straight. Americans who died in a terror attack protected nobody - not Jews, not themselves. They were victims, not warriors. Or can't you tell the difference?
36 - Irene Wagner
Many of the folks in whose circles I've run in the past supported some vaguely defined "War on Terror" because they believed, through manipulations of segments of the Religious Right, that fighting anyone with whom Israel had land disputes was fighting to protect the apple of God's eye.
I believe they were duped, Ruvy, and you found their interference--as many a Palestinian did, too-- unwelcome and unhelpful.
37 - roger nowosielski
Well, just as some of the crusaders did fight for the Holy Land and the (Christian) idea.
38 - zingzing
to #34: that's true, of course, but that wasn't anywhere near the point--the point being that american blood was spilt because of america's foreign policy towards israel. every 9/11 victim, and every american soldier that dies in the middle east, died--in part--because of that policy. no matter that part of it is bush's daddy complex, part of it is oil greed, part of it is religion, part of it is war profiteering, part of it is the actual desire to impart freedom, there IS a part of it that is about israel and the jews. it's a complex region with complex reasons for life and death, that surely is true, but israel looms large in that reasoning.
as for #34: ww2 is the same as above. part of the reason we got involved was pure economics. part of it was to stop germany and nazism from taking over europe. but part of it WAS to protect the jews. sure, american governmental policies towards refugee jews was pretty reprehensible, but to say that "they never fought to end discrimination against the jews" is just a lie. european ww2 is the proof. pick a battle, any battle.
"American soldiers never fought to protect the Jewish State." well, no, but we did supply you with the means to do so yourself, and we've been embroiled in multiple wars (declared or not) because (in part, in part) of the protection we do offer you.
an american doesn't have to die in israel for his/her death to be all about israel. we don't have to carry a jew in our arms and yell, "look, i saved a jew!" in order to help the jewish people or the israeli state. for better or worse, every time there is a threat against israel, the person/nation making that threat sees us standing behind you. because of this support, americans have died.
39 - Ruvy
Let's bottom line this, zing. You called me a liar - but you can't pony up any Yanks who died to protect Jews. It's time to either put up - or shut up.
BOTTOM LINE - if you go fishing far enough and with a big enough pail of worms, and a big fancy-assed sonar scope, you might come up with a guppy called "indirect concern for Israel". That's the little fishy you and Irene have managed so far. But while Jews have died - in their thousands - to protect America; Americans have never put their asses on the line for Jews.
FULL STOP.
40 - Clavos
Sorry, zing. America's participation in WW II had zilch to do with saving Jews, and everything to do with helping the UK and the other allies, who were saving themselves.
Even after WW II, discrimination against (american) Jews here in america was rampant; saving Jews was not even on the horizon in WW II.
41 - Irene Wagner
Those little fishies got Bush elected and sent their own sons and daughter to die in a war they believed was a good cause, Ruvy.
42 - Ruvy
zing, just to show you how big I am, I ponied up an American who put his ass on the line for Israel.
GENERAL Mickey Marcus, a Brooklyn boy like me, a graduate of Erasmus Hall High School, graduate of West Point and a decorated veteran in WWII, was recruited by the Hagana to organize the IDF for David ben-Gurion. He was the first Jewish general to command a Jewish army for 1,400 years.
To be sure, he fought for Israel because he was a Jew. But he was recruited because he was an American.
43 - zingzing
yeah, ok clavos. and the civil war had NOTHING to do with slavery.
americans died in order to free the slaves/help the jews--maybe not every person who died did so thinking that's what they died for, but some did, and that's what counts in this argument.
the point is still that americans have died for israel, and even if ruvy doesn't want to accept ww2 or the past 60 years in the middle east as examples of such, i'm not going to argue with him about it anymore. if he really wants to argue that NOT ONE DROP OF AMERICAN BLOOD HAS EVER BEEN SHED FOR REASONS IN ANY WAY CONNECTED WITH ISRAEL OR THE JEWS, then he can have at it.
but it's bullshit, and he knows it. or maybe he doesn't. he's been blind to lesser things before.
44 - zingzing
to #42: "No Americans ever died to keep Jews safe - NOT EVER!"
and if you die in your holy war, you'll be the second american to ever, ever shed blood for israel.
end of discussion?
it's been fun. now i'm going to go screw a jewish girl on her period so the jews can bleed for me. can't resist... publishing... horrid comment... gaahhhhh.....
45 - Ruvy
But for you, zing, it's put up or shut up time. You can't seem to pony up those Americans who went to fight for Jews, can you? And you keep flappin' your gums about it, too.
I know it's rough, but you can admit you when you are wrong. Trust me - it builds character.
46 - zingzing
ruvy, see #43, or any of the other comments i wrote.
47 - Ruvy
Can't seem to stop flappin your gums, can you? You called me a liar, and I proved you wrong - or more to the point, you proved how ignorant you are. And now you are proving how childish you are.
It takes a MAN to admit he's wrong. Anybody with a stick cock can fuck a girl on the rag.
48 - roger nowosielski
I don't think discussion is relevant. Jews didn't die for America either, unless you want to count all Jewish-Americans to have been Jewish first and foremost and only secondarily Americans. And that is debatable.
So it looks like there are no brownie points either way.
49 - Ruvy
I don't think discussion is relevant.
The great thedakar from Christian County, KY, hath spoken! Let us all bow in obeisance!
50 - roger nowosielski
I don't claim to have a monopoly on knowledge, Ruvy. Just wondered what really was at stake here.
51 - zingzing
ruvy: "Can't seem to stop flappin your gums, can you? You called me a liar, and I proved you wrong"
i thought you proved me right up #42. i'm sure if one wanted to dig around a bit, you could find example after example out there. what with the interconnected politics of the world, i'm not sure you could find ANY deaths unrelated to israel at this point in time. next time a cat dies, it'll be on israel.
still, if you want to stick by your statement that "No Americans ever died to keep Jews safe - NOT EVER!," you have your fun. maybe you want to qualify it somehow. not sure.
and just because you claim you're right while claiming on wrong doesn't make you right. and that's all you're doing. over and over again. (even after you prove me right.)
52 - zingzing
"And now you are proving how childish you are."
ha. because of the period joke? please. you know me well enough to know that i can't resist such things.
"It takes a MAN to admit he's wrong. Anybody with a stick cock can fuck a girl on the rag."
wow. that's about the most hypocritical thing i've seen today. it works on so many levels. childishness, admission of mistakes, appeal to manliness... that, ruvy, right there, that's proof of god if i ever did see it. a rhetorical everest, i dare say. how did you pack all that into such a short sentence?
53 - zingzing
hrm, that should be: "and just because you claim you're right while claiming I'M wrong doesn't make you right."
54 - Clavos
yeah, ok clavos. and the civil war had NOTHING to do with slavery.
Stupid (and irrelevant) analogy, zing.
When we entered WWII, we were keeping Jews from participating fully in our own culture; we had them as second class citizens and generally despised them, right here in amerika. We even refused European Jewish refugees entrance into the US during the war.
At no time during the war did anyone in the government or elsewhere intimate that we were fighting to save Jews; nor, for that matter, were our allies -- in their case it was self defense -- Hitler was trying to take over the world, starting with Europe.
Nobody, especially the USA, gave a rat's ass about the Jews.
55 - roger nowosielski
Well, that's something I wasn't aware of. So when did anti-Semitism sort of died out? After the war?
56 - zingzing
"At no time during the war did anyone in the government or elsewhere intimate that we were fighting to save Jews..."
totally not the point.
57 - zingzing
"Stupid (and irrelevant) analogy, zing."
hrm. how? looks pretty good to me. wars aren't always about what they're supposed to be about, or about what one government says they are about. and the reasons individuals fight in wars are legion (ha ha).
58 - Clavos
OK, zing. You've made the allegation -- prove it.
Let's see some supporting data from recognized historians.
59 - Clavos
Roger 55:
Prejudice against Jews was nearly ubiquitous in the USA until the late fifties, and depending on the place, still exists today.
Jews were barred from night clubs, restaurants, and private clubs for years after WW II, and also were excluded from many towns and developments, including Ft. Lauderdale, Florida right into the sixties.
60 - roger nowosielski
Well, I came in 1961, NYC - and lived there for fifteen years. They say every third New Yorker was Jewish, never mind boroughs like Brooklyn. Naturally, I haven't seen none of it, except once in a while guys get drunk and occasionally you hear some shit. But NYC is an exception, I guess, full of immigrants and all ethnic backgrounds.
61 - Ruvy
OK, zing. You've made the allegation -- prove it.
Let's see some supporting data from recognized historians.
Don't count on it, Clavos.... zing doesn't have the sense for historical accuracy that I have. My original statement ought to have been, "No Americans (with the exception of maybe a dozen or so who on their own helped in the War of Independence of 1948-49 or in subsequent wars, like in 1973) ever died to keep Jews safe - NOT EVER! THAT STATEMENT is as good as gold, because if I actually had to I could pony up the names and probably the places they died.
zing, by contrast relies on others to provide his facts the way a barfly relies on others to buy him a drink.
And Roger, for all of his knowledge, just does not know anything about Jew hatred - which truly surprises me. Poland was filled with it, and still is.
Leaving aside all the "kill the Jews!" and all the hakenkreuzer I saw on walls and lampposts growing in a Jewish-Catholic neighborhood in Brooklyn, leaving aside the bullying of Catholic kids that I experienced as a child - these were truly minor things - traveling in upstate New York, even in the mid-sixties meant you did not mention being Jewish - not if you wanted a hotel room or a seat at a decent restaurant.
Jew-hatred never went away. The stink of the death camps made it odious to admit to being a Jew-hater for a while. But it is all back now. It masquerades under the title "anti-Israel sentiment", or "anti-Zionism" with useful idiots world-wide including on this site asserting that Israelis are today's Nazis.
AND TO PROVE ME RIGHT, a bunch of Jew-hating assholes are going to meet in Geneva today, Hitler's 120th birthday, to call again for the destruction of the Jewish State, condemning it for "human rights" violations. Murderous animals like the Libyans, Sudanese, Saudis, Congolese, Rwandans, Burmese, Chinese and Russians and assorted other human trash, will call us genocidal and racist. And Hell's Chorus will all solemnly say, "amen".
62 - Ruvy
Moving on to other news:
From Arutz Sheva Hamas Cleric: 'Jews Destined to Extermination'
Arutz Sheva, quoted a 19 April 2009 Palestine Media Watch bulletin reporting a Hamas cleric stating that Jews are evil -
"Their children will be exterminated."
Follow the links to get the full flavor of Arab racism and Jew-hatred. For my money, these bastards need to be executed - along with the Israelis who support them, and the foreigners who come to our land giving these murderers aid and comfort.
Let those who would murder us die by our hands. Better that we should rinse our feet in their blood, than they should rinse theirs in ours. Enough of my people have died at the hands of this human trash. It's time to rid the world of this garbage - wherever they fester and stink.
63 - Ruvy
Oh, and to those of you who would whine, "you sound just like those you would kill," the distinction is this. I'm more than willing to live in peace with my Arab neighbors. I hold no brief against them. Let them live and prosper on their lands, and be happy in their lives: but those who would kill me, I want to see die.
64 - roger nowosielski
Sure it was there in Poland, especially outside of Warsaw, e.g., and quite open. In NYC, not really - not among the Italian or Irish Americans I worked with; very rarely would the subject even come up. I don't know about upstate NY - except for Woodstock. And I do believe that the percentage of the Jewish population in NYC was quite high - can't be sure of the numbers.
65 - Ruvy
All these numbers have changed Roger. When I was a kid in Brooklyn, there were more Jews in New York City (2½ million) than there were in Israel!
66 - roger nowosielski
Ruvy,
There still must be, no more than in Israel, though.
Ruvy, I graduated from Brooklyn College - all through the sixties. Probably, close to forty percent (or more) of these kids were Jewish, some from Jeshiva, too, I just haven't experienced that - and that is to say even if I were to wear part of it on my sleeve. Which I didn't, of course, because of the way I was raised.
But then again, NYC is special. Just to show you, I haven't seen any discrimination against blacks either - not until I got drafted and was in South Carolina, and Georgia and Texas. That's when I first saw the water fountains with "for white" and "for colored" signs, and when billiard parlors would not allow a black GI in and play (because of policy). Needless to say, I was shocked.
So I admit, I am rather naive about such matters, not having been raised in the US. And I'm glad it was never part of my upbringing.
67 - zingzing
"OK, zing. You've made the allegation -- prove it. Let's see some supporting data from recognized historians."
what was my allegation? i'm seriously at a loss here.
68 - zingzing
"Don't count on it, Clavos.... zing doesn't have the sense for historical accuracy that I have."
oh, thank god. i'd be a raving religious lunatic who believes he knows the future. prophet ruvy, you can have your own historical accuracy.
"My original statement ought to have been, "No Americans (with the exception of maybe a dozen or so who on their own helped in the War of Independence of 1948-49 or in subsequent wars, like in 1973) ever died to keep Jews safe - NOT EVER! THAT STATEMENT is as good as gold, because if I actually had to I could pony up the names and probably the places they died."
even if that statement is still wrong, that's better ruvy. and i'll still stick by my ORIGINAL STATEMENT that your original statement was "completely false."
"zing, by contrast relies on others to provide his facts the way a barfly relies on others to buy him a drink."
and i thank you for me being right, or whatever. kisses. ruvy, you and the facts are like two drunks that stumble around in the dark looking for the bathroom and end up pissing all over each other.