When your back is against the wall, you do what you have to in order to survive.
Introduction…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
Persia Delenda Est! Israel's Case for a Pre-Emptive Nuclear Strike on Tehran - Comments Page 3
When your back is against the wall, you do what you have to in order to survive.
Introduction…
Article comments
76 - Ruvy
Mark,
Thank you so much for your comment here. I appreciate the support. Note that Mark often disagrees with me on many issues. I do dislike the solution I have proposed. I did review Warday at Blogcritics, a novel about the consequences of a nuclear exchange. I'm not unaware of the terrible human consequences that nuclear attacks can have. But I see no better solution to the real existential problem we face in Israel. Come up with a better one, any of you; I'm always willing to listen.
DD,
I'm willing to sit corrected. My own interpretation of Zech. 14:12 was extrapolated from a nightmare I had in 1981 where I sort of "saw" a nuclear explosion, and my mother looked at me, screamed and fainted, and with my failing vision I saw in a mirror that one of my eyes had melted....
77 - Clavos
Mark @ #74:
Well put. I think that too many here in the US downplay the dangers posed by Iran to Israel in their well-meaning (but naive, IMO) desire to see peace in the ME. Iran and others have repeatedly made it clear that they will not rest until Israel and all the Jews are eradicated.
78 - roger nowosielski
To speak of "delicate sensibilities" when referring to the possibility of a nuclear conflagration by the actions of a shitty little country in the middle of the desert is the epitome of myopia.
Thank God Israel can only bark and that Ruvy's is the voice in the wilderness; very soon, both will be put in their place, and for their own good.
There's nothing charming about Ruvy's diatribes. They verge on being pathetic, having no other point of origin than some odd mixture of hatred and victimhood, not to mention obscure writings by doomsayers.
To reiterate, there's nothing charming about fanaticism.
79 - roger nowosielski
Clavos,
I really believe that Iran can be won over with shrewd US foreign policy. It's almost like they're begging for it to happen - a miscreant child who misbehaves only to draw attention to themselves.
80 - Cindy
"...then what should Israel do?"
Show some good judgment for a start--stop oppressing Palestinians might be a good choice here. Fuck religion and its delusions of grandeur.
Israelis should march on their gov't and stand up for Palestinians. They should do what's right and keep doing what's right even in the face of death--rather than cause other innocents to die by their hands. They should understand that their choices have helped foment the fury they are facing and that they need to make new ones.
Israeli life is no more valuable than any innocent people Israelis would kill anywhere else.
No wonder you believe that people are all biologically compelled to be violent regardless of education. We often don't believe others can accomplish what we ourselves haven't. Imperialists have trouble thinking straight.
(I considered not posting this--I wasn't going to talk about this subject at all--but I'm furious about this. Good to speak one's mind even if it causes anger. And you spoke yours as well:
"...to reject what's he's saying because it offends our delicate sensibilities."
It's a dismissive remark that ridicules what sane people have been trying to say since your cavemen picked up their first rock. Maybe you ought to hang out in Hyde Park until you get the point.)
81 - M ark
Decountrify Israel -- let the Jordan River live.
"...to reject what's he's saying because it offends our delicate sensibilities."...how about you slap yourself silly, Mark.
While we're at it -- USA out of North America.
82 - Dr Dreadful
Ruvy,
...I think we all had those sorts of nightmares in 1981, the world being what it was back then.
Everyone had the jitters... and the local fire brigade was in the habit of testing the 'four-minute warning' siren without telling anyone that they were going to do so. Not a good way to help one concentrate on a long afternoon in school, I can tell you.
83 - roger nowosielski
The road to peace, Mr. Schannon, is to take the weapons of mass destruction away from the miscreant children. That'd be the first step. If they want to keep on shooting at one another with rifles, that's be the least of my concern. For if they don't value their own life nor anyone else's, that's exactly what they deserve. Let them all go to hell.
84 - m Ark
For you suicidal dreamers -- how 'bout some Jules.
85 - roger nowosielski
I love this, Better than a thousand words.
86 - Ruvy
I see none of you has a solution at all - except "Ma r k", who would be happy to see us die and our nation destroyed, semi-Semite that he is.
Clavos recognizes what "Ma r k", Cindy and Roger refuse to recognize: that Iran and others have repeatedly made it clear that they will not rest until Israel and all the Jews are eradicated. It is your attitudes, the three of you, multiplied by millions in Europe and America, that allowed 6 million Jews to die under the Nazis 70 years ago. That is why we cannot trust you or your "good will" or your "humanity". They are all a sham. You're insulted? Start reading facts instead of bullshit. Like this, this, and this. And flush the bullshit you've been spouting down the toilet.
87 - Ruvy
This comment really belongs not here, but at my article on how we Jews cannot forgive or forget. But the topics are related. This article is an attempt to deal with Persia's efforts to exterminate us, while this article, by Sammy Benoit, deals with how Britain held the coat for the Nazis to exterminate us.
88 - Cindy
You are asking us to read an article (your second link) to demonstrate that Abdallah al-Nafisi supports terrorism against you. This is from a man whose article is entitled...Israel's Case for a Pre-Emptive Nuclear Strike on Tehran.
My maternal grandmother was Ukranian...have you heard of the Holodomor. Should I make a case for the genocide in which 10 million Ukrainians were killed...and no one's even heard about it? Does that mean the world wants Ukrainians dead? Shall we duke it out? My relatives didn't even warrant a mention.
Enough with the...'everyone wants Jews dead' schtick. No one you are speaking to is against you or wants Jews dead. Mark would be happy to see Jews die? That you'd say that to Mark suggests that your anger is blinding you.
89 - Baronius
"I see none of you has a solution at all."
Actually, Ruvy, I had a couple of suggestions, but I guess they weren't fiery enough for you.
90 - Ruvy
Actually Cindy, I am familiar with the Holodomor, though not under that name. The Soviet genocide of 10 million Ukrainians was part of numerous Soviet campaigns of murder and genocide that made Hitler look like a piker by comparison.
Lionel Trilling, in his introduction to I.E. Babel's "Red Cavalry and Other Stories" talks of the violence in Eastern Europe that was (and still is) normal, but which is shocking to Westerners delicate sensibilities. Look up knout, Cindy, if you do not already know its meaning. It was the standard form of punishment in places like the Ukraine, White Russia, Russia and Poland. Eastern Europe is a nasty place.
You say, 10 million Ukrainians were killed...and no one's even heard about it. And that is the point, Cindy. Nobody ever heard about it. Everybody heard of Hitler's death camps - and folks still want Jews dead. That is the hard truth. Nobody heard of the Ukrainians and hardly anyone cares - unfortunately. But they've all heard of how Hitler murdered us off and Arabs and Persians, not to mention loads of Jew-haters all over Europe, still want more Jewish blood. "Mein Kampf" is a best seller in Cairo bookstores.
That bitter fact may bother you, and you may not want to recognize it, but it is still true. Ask the Jews who were told by Austrians that they would not rent to Jews, ask the Jew-hating fellow from Perth who is finding himself in jail for incitement to violence. Ask the loudmouths who screamed Jews to the ovens all over the world in demonstrations last January.
If you are insulted, Cindy, good. That means you still have some feelings. Now can the bullshit, and reading the facts.
91 - Jet Gardner
Okay am I the first or last one to know that the fresh comments page is back under that word "more" up there?
...before I make more of a fool of myself than I already have? ;)
92 - Baronius
Cindy, you have a Ukrainian background, and you can still talk about Marx without anger? At least Ruvy's reaction to evil is a human one. Your passionless discussion of a system that has slaughtered millions every time it's been implemented is unnatural.
93 - Baronius
Jet, you weren't the last one. If they keep adding features, this site might improve to a pale imitation of what it used to be.
94 - Ruvy
Baronius;
I'm not sold. I'm not convinced that the command and control centers are the best targets either. If you want to eliminate the threat, you've got to hit the physical locations - the labs and equipment.
Alternately, you could attack their air force and anti-aircraft defenses, then take your time wiping out each nuclear facility. And there's always infiltration and sabotage, or computer warfare. There's also economic sabotage and inciting political unrest, neither of which should be too difficult given Iran's current state. There is a wide variety of options.
I dealt with attempting to assassinate the leadership in the article itself. Now let's take your other proposals one by one.
1....you've got to hit the physical locations - the labs and equipment.
Yes, after you deal with those who would order their use against you. Then you do not have to worry about their retaliation.
2....Alternately, you could attack their air force and anti-aircraft defenses, then take your time wiping out each nuclear facility.
So long as the regime is in power or even exists they can call in their friends. So Israel country will have gone to war without knowing what its final goals are. More to the point, taking out their air-force and anti-aircraft does not eliminate the threat against Israel - which comes from missiles, not necessarily nuclear, but massive in number, and not necessarily launched from Persia - but also southern Lebanon, Syria, and Gaza. Additionally, all the problems that atttend attempting to take out the nuclear enrichment plants and the like apply to attempting to hit air force bases in Persia. Finally, this option might have had some viability in 2002. But now, with the entire area crawling with American, European and Russian ships, it is a definite non-starter.
3.....And there's always infiltration and sabotage, or computer warfare. There's also economic sabotage and inciting political unrest, neither of which should be too difficult given Iran's current state. There is a wide variety of options.
All of these suggestions would have been good five years or so ago. They all require something that isn't really there now - time. To my knowledge, the Israeli government did not attempt any of them, relying on its so-called "ally" the United States. That "ally" was good for nothing - except advice to be "restrained".
NOW THERE IS NO TIME LEFT FOR LESSER SOLUTIONS. THAT IS THE BIG PROBLEM.
95 - Jet Gardner
Actually Baronius I like the new graphics... if only they worked!
My only major objection has been a new writer publishing his first article would be appalled to discover it vanish from the home page listings after only three or four days... the same amount of time it'd take for them to vanish from the contributor's list...if that, as if it and they never existed.
Now if we can only get our emails when a comment is posted on an old article-I'd be happy.
96 - Ruvy
Baronius,
f they keep adding features, this site might improve to a pale imitation of what it used to be.
You got that one on the money.
97 - Cindy
Bar, you only could say that my reaction is unnatural because you don't know me or my experience. My reaction to the evil I saw was enough to make me shut most people out over about 15 years and consider humanity as irredeemable. It's really only 20 months since I even began to change my mind.
I should hate Marx for what? Because some people abused power when they had authority? What's new? Should you hate Jesus because of the Crusades? Communism is not a government. There can't be a communist state. Marx was wrong about some things. It doesn't make Marx or Communism evil.
I look at evil every day. Many of the people struggling against it are Communists. Of course, that's a whole different world than you'd see. You don't get even a fraction of the news there is unless you look for it.
Who do you think is responsible for the the 8 hour work day in the US? The 'free market'? It's Anarchists who fought for that. It's Anarchists and Communists and their ilk whose struggle has brought people freedoms.
Marx was wrong that there needed to be an intermediary authoritarian state. I'm not a Marxist. I just need to understand them as they are in the struggle for the same end goal--which is a stateless society. True Communism is Anarchism.
98 - Sasha Shepherd
Ruvy,
I agree strongly with one statement you made either in your article or your earlier comments. That Israel should stop taking all money from the U.S. and Britain, and cut off ties with those countries. You said that America has treated Israel as a colony - and that is the whole problem.
In fact, the Arabs and Persians have a perfectly legitimate gripe against Israel, and have every reason to want to see it destroyed. This reason does not have so much to do with the Jews as the Americans and British.
I have argued before that the founding of Israel how and when it was founded was the second worst crime the West has ever committed against the Jews. I believe that the first reason the British allowed Israel to be founded was realpolitik, and giving a sanctuary to Jews was a distant afterthought - or a pretense.
In reality, Israel IS an imperial beachhead - designed to fracture the Arab will, keep another Ottoman Empire from forming, and give a reason for America to meddle in the resource rich reason. Of course the Muslims hate it.
The tragedy here is that there is no particular natural emnity between the Muslims and Jews. Their religions are more similar than different, and they have historically been able to live together pretty well. There have been some isolated events, and Jews were not treated better than anyone else, but they also weren't treated worse. With a few exceptions from distant history, you didn't see the widespread Pogroms or genocide campaigns that occurred in the Christian lands.
To a great extent, the current animosity is a result of the British and Americans USING the Jews to further their own historical ambitions in the region. This is certainly an ugly business. And the greatest losers in the end are the Jews - now the crimes of Israel, the imperial ambitions it has been a front for, will be forever associated with the Jews, fairly or unfairly.
So what's a solution? I think you were on the right track. Cut ties with America and Britain. No longer take their weapons or foreign aide. No longer support their material ambitions in the region in any way. Let the Arabs and Persians know that that era is over, and sue for peace as equals. Offer monetary compensation to the displaced Palestinians if they agree to leave the country, and try to work with a neighboring Arabic country to re-settle them. Offer to buy the West Bank for a fair price, and try to convince them they will be happier in starting from another Arabic country with some money than trying to start their own country with nothing. Really, what happens when Palestinians within Israel outnumber Jews by 2050?
I know all of that might be idealistic. But the Arabic populations (if not the leadership) would be enthralled to have the Americans out, and for America to lose this justification for meddling. The young, highly westernized Iranians (a country that has historically been friendly towards the west) are already sick to death of their leadership. Give them one less reason to justify their existence and their aggression towards Israel. Convince the moderate rationalists that Israel no longer is a tool of the imperialists, and wants to work in good faith to set things right. On the other hand, quickly deploy the most advanced anti-missile systems available. It might not work, but it doesn't insure MAD like a nuclear strike on Iran does.
You asked for solution to and unsolveable problem. That's the best I've got off the top of my head.
Sasha
99 - Cindy
And that is just off the top of her head. Imagine if you gave her a week.
100 - Dave Nalle
If you gave her a week she could come up with other bizarre misconceptions and twisted mutations of history so squirrely that we'd all be scratching our heads.
A couple of points. First, the US and Britain would LOVE to have the Ottoman Empire back. They weren't terrorists or religious extremists, and they were largely incompetent. Second, the US and Britain don't have imperial ambitions in the middle east. They just want to keep the oil flowing and if friendly locals will fill that need then they're happy.
Dave
101 - Ruvy
Sasha,
You will be very surprised by my answer to you. I agree with you almost entirely on your solution.
Let's examine why we are in such violent agreement here.
1. Looked at from the eyes of a non-Jew, Israel appears to be only a colonial outpost of either the United states or the EU, depending om who you dislike more. This is a reasonable conclusion for someone who is not fleeing Christian or Moslem persecution to draw.
From the point of view of an Israeli, who sees this nation as a refuge, the "aid" received of imperialist powers is not worth the candle. After all, we have (hopefully) our nukes, we can produce our own tanks, missiles, rifles, ammo, uniforms, avionics systems, etc., etc. Therefore doing things that cut us off from what appears to be and what is the colonial nipple is a top priority.
2. My Arab neighbors deserve decent lives, not lives filled with strife, conflict and war. They deserve, as I do, the right to live under their own fig tree in peace.
Therefore one of two solutions must be found. One is to buy them out of living here, helping them to move to a more prosperous country (like Canada or the States), or to a neighboring Arab country to live - in peace, dignity and prosperity. Of course the problem with that solution is that "the more prosperous countries" are no longer so prosperous. That means that the eastern half of the Palestine Mandate - Jordan - will have to be where these Arabs go, if they must move.
The other possibility is that these Arabs living in Israel all become citizens of Jordan and a goodly portion of them stay here as "ex-pats" living in autonomous districts where local law obtains. As for Jordan, why should this Jew care if they wish to call it Falastín? If the capital of this Arab country is Amman, why should we care? In the end, all we really want is that the Arabs respect the fact that the Land of Israel - from the Jordan to the sea - is a Jewish country under Jewish sovereignty and, that we live in peace.
You correctly point out that the leadership of the Arabs (and of the State of Israel) is a major problem. I do not know if you realize this, but you have reasoned yourself to my political position.
With one difference. We cannot sue for peace. Suing for peace means dealing with Arab leaders who are so poisoned with hatred for Jews (and anybody who does not toe their line) that they want to slaughter us off. The Wahhabi (which is the influence over the Moslem Brotherhood where most of the Arab terrorist groups have their ideological roots) believe in slaughtering off everyone who does not follow their brand of belief. I do not call it Islam, because a true Moslem does not believe that Allah has form - the Wahhabi do. They are heretics.
The Shi'a are convinced that the Mahdi (the Moslem messiah) is right around the corner, and believe that the Mahdi will rule the earth. They have no reason to make peace with dhimmis.
To make a long story short, you cannot sue for peace with your executioners. You have to kill them - or convince the people they oppress the most to kill them. So, while we have a workable program for peace, we are still not out of the woods with the Persians and the empire they are building. They are not interested in peace, they are interested in domination. Hamas is not interested in peace, and neither is FataH, and neither are the copycat organizations of Hamas or FataH. They are interested in slaughter. The nationalistic line is just a pack of BS to attract idealists into becoming killers. Administering a country, building it from the ground up, is work. Slaughter, by contrast, is not.
So the problem remains. But, full marks for giving it a good shot. I thank you; I appreciate your efforts, and the time you invested to write your comments. Ideas that lie embedded in what you've written might help with an ultimate solution.
102 - Glenn Contrarian
Okay, Ruvy - since you believe America has never, ever been an ally of Israel, then give back all the money our government - our taxpayers - have sent Israel since 1947. Back in the '90's, IIRC, it was about five billion dollars per year.
So give it back. ALL of it.
If you're going to bite the hand that has helped build your country - and YES, America DID provide you with financial and diplomatic support to do so - then give all the money back.
But of course you - Ruvy - cannot do so...so all you will do is stand on the sidelines and carp about how terrible America has been to Israel. "YES, we'll take your billions of dollars and thank-you-very-much, you enemy of Israel and Zionism!"
So much for honor.
You know, Ruvy - I really, truly do pity you. Keeping such hate in your heart - and thinking that it is right to do so - is a direct reflection of identical beliefs among many Wahhabi Muslims. I don't think for a moment that Israel is as bad as them...but by keeping and breeding such hate, you have the potential for being exactly that.
Remember, Ruvy - you, too, are exactly as human as the cruelest Wahhabi in Saudi Arabia...and if you fail to control your hatred and spite, then you may well become just as evil in the sight of God as that Wahhabi.
103 - Baronius
Cindy, I don't blame Jesus for the Crusades. There have been a few good Christians over the years. You and I can argue whether Christianity's history is a net plus or minus.
But if an experiment fails in the exact same way every time it's tried, you've got to consider that there's a flaw in the original theory. Marxism has led to butchery in Africa, Eastern Europe, Russia, China, Southeast Asia, and South America. It has never freed people on a large scale. There may be communes here and there that have succeeded, but not many. The most successful model for communes is the Christian monastery, which predates Marx.
Anarchy has been tried before. Remember the French Revolution, and its attempt to change human nature? It turns out that politics abhors a vacuum. In fact, compared to politics, nature has candlelight slow-dance feelings for a vacuum. Unprincipled people will always grab power if it's available, and they'll always kill to hold onto it.
Your premise is that power can be abandoned, without something worse coming along and reclaiming it. America's founding principle is to set up as many power centers as possible and keep them at odds. The free market follows a similar principle.
104 - roger nowosielski
The whole discussion turns on the distinction between legitimate and illegitimate use of force. There is "evil" in this world, no ifs ands and buts about it, and sometimes it's got to be dealt with.
Cindy's pacifistic views are totally irrelevant insofar that they won't even admit "self-defense" as valid reasons for individuals and nations. World War II is a perfect example of the latter.
But Ruvy's idea of nuking Iran in a preemptive strike doesn't even come close.
It's born of delusional thinking, fixed knowledge-belief system, to use Chris Rose's apt phrase, extreme paranoia, and odd admixture of hatred and victimhood.
105 - Baronius
1) the labs and equipment... "after you deal with those who would order their use against you"
No, no, no. You can't kill the leadership surgically, as you've noted. You'd have to kill everyone in Iran - not just Tehran - because if there's one person left near a nuclear weapon, he's going to launch it. But if you destroy one component to a nuclear weapon (or the lab or factory that produces it), the weapon is unusable at least for a while. You can prevent an attack by destroying 100% of the humans or 1% of the equipment. That shouldn't be a difficult moral choice.
2) If you want to target the correct production facilities, you need accurate information. Get it. If you think you'll need multiple air strikes to destroy the facilities, your first attack should target the air defenses, so you'll be able to make repeated attacks safely.
3) You're worried about time - mess with their schedule. They can't build nuclear weapons if there's no electricity in the labs, and their best engineers are off repairing the power grid. If you want to think bigger than that, how about turning Egypt against Iran? Egypt can't be happy about Iran's role in Palestine. Find the dissidents within Iran (there are a lot of them) and help them to overthrow the government. Considering that everyone who hates you relies on high oil prices to stay afloat, you could do something about that.
You say that a nuclear attack is the only way to prevent a nuclear attack. Why not try some other solution first? Don't sit on your hands and say that time is running out. There's an old line from The Simpsons, "we've tried nothing and we've run out of ideas".
Above all, don't claim that you consider charring your enemy to be unfortunate. It flies in the face of everything you've written on this site.
106 - roger nowosielski
I think you should give us a respite, Ruvy, rather than contaminate this site any further.
Go speak to your rabbi or spiritual advisor.
107 - Ruvy
Baronius,
Truth is I'm not really interested in nuking Tehran. I find this abhorrent to me. I'm not interested in vengeance or mass murder. I'm interested in securing the country - not securing peace, necessarily, but securing the country. If you can find a way out from nuking the Persians, that is exactly what I asked for.
So, keep talking. You most assuredly have my attention.
I have to point out that it is the government of Israel that followed that adage from The Simpsons of doing nothing and now running out of time. I don't think that way. No competent fast food restaurant manager can afford to. He'd be out on his ass.
108 - Ruvy
I haven't been on the site for most of the day because the damned site keeps going down. Every time I try to post a comment, I get a double posting because the damned site goes down. What a pain!
109 - Ruvy
Roger, send me the name of that quack you see to keep your head straight. We can schedule double sessions and cut the bill in half.....
110 - Cindy
Self-defense is a difficult thing to gauge when it gets to nations and power.
No, I can't defend Palestinians firing missiles at innocent Israelis--even in self-defense.
Terrorism is never justified. (There is no ooops, that's life...oh well, we've got some 'collateral damage'.
Collateral damage is your mother choking on her own blood. It's your child with her skull crushed in lying under rubble. How could I defend anyone who would do that to your mother or child?
All terrorism is wrong, by people or nations. Again...what will be said, for example, when Afghan terrorists at some future date begin flying airplanes into buildings.
That connect the dots game is a great thing. Maybe people need to play that game more.
111 - Zedd
Ruvy Ruvy Ruvy.... sigh.
It seems that you at least recognize that your previous articles were indeed basically long monotonous speeches about off course your obsession the Arabs (I'm sure you'll correct me in Hebrew... What...ev.)
Any way, since you haven't responded to the repeated please for you to pull yourself together, I'll just say -have fun with all that! Hope it warms your bunk.
112 - Cindy
It's funny how the 'enemy' just won't play fair. They refuse to cooperate and just accept that they are the real enemy. They keep thinking it's the other guy--you know the 'good guy'--who is the enemy.
113 - Zedd
Ruvy,
If you are among the wealthiest people in the world and have been in the news EVERY-DAD-GUM-DAY for as long as many of our lifetimes; with every incoming Western Leader vowing to help you (kissing up to you cause you are rich), the pity thing wears out. It just does.
Try another shtick.
Let’s discuss how much charity comes out of your beloved homeland that is none-Jew related. Perhaps that approach will buy another half century of fawning and earn you the right to more years of endless complaining and attention seeking. Gee…!
114 - Cindy
My nephew didn't have those little green army men, like boys had when I was a kid. Instead he had action figures. He leave them in piles and occasionally, he'd go over and pick up two weird creatures or wrestling guys, or whatever they were...and then he would sit there for quite awhile smashing them into each other and making all kind of explosive sound effects.
I thought he was from outer space. What alien thinking.
115 - Cindy
Hey there my favorite Zedd. :-)
116 - Cindy
What We Are
117 - roger nowosielski
The quack is not whom I see, Ruvy. You're the one.
118 - roger nowosielski
Forget, it Ruvy. I take the last remark back. But there is really no more sense talking because I don't want to be insulting you. I hope it all works out.
119 - Irene Wagner
Ruvy, I can't remember whether or not you had any time for Senator Feingold. It's certainly not like he's out there encouraging his constituents to be making aliyah, yet...
Respect for the memories of the victims of the Holocaust is causing people to work up a full head of steam about Darfur, too.
I think Satan has a time share in Saudi Arabia.
120 - Cindy
#103
Bar,
Sorry I'm so late in responding. I have made a few false starts.
1) My point about Jesus, is that just because his ideas were used wrongly, doesn't mean we should toss his ideas out.
2) There were more than Anarchists involved in the French Revolution. It isn't that power abhors a vacuum so much as that power likes to take things over. Human nature doesn't not change based on political whims. There is much current evidence that a variety of ideas are able to live under a base that is anarchistic--from the Zapatistas to the collective workplaces. In fact, I bet you and your friends practice anarchism all the time without big fights. Any group of friends generally does this in making decisions.
Power isn't abandoned Bar. It is simply flows horizontally. It's hierarchy and authoritarianism that are abandoned. Thus, the power of others is respected.
121 - Ruvy
Irene,
Satan had the time share at the Uninn Bank and the British and American assholes who created the Thugdom of Saudia, not to mention the American CIA which installed the Shah of Iran. Your nation had a blessing and a guardian angel from G-d. Both have been withdrawn. Anyone who has seen the decline of American society as I have cannot fail to see this. You guys can't get anything right anymore, not even educating kids in your capital. Atheists go screaming at one politician or another, like Dave Nalle trying to smear the Blessed of Hussein with the feces of the "liberal agenda". Those of us who see the Hand of G-d in History see something entirely different.
Now that you Americans are well and truly broke (like I said you would be), Glenn Contrarian wants America's money back from Israel. I'll pass his note on to the schnorrers in the prime minister's office, if I get the chance. How dare we bite the hand that twists the knife in our back while holding big delicious juicy carrots in front of our "leaders".
Hah!
122 - Ruvy
Okay, Ruvy - since you believe America has never, ever been an ally of Israel, then give back all the money our government - our taxpayers - have sent Israel since 1947. Back in the '90's, IIRC, it was about five billion dollars per year.
So give it back. ALL of it.
Sure, Glenn,
After we deduct for
1. all the lives that could have been saved by the USAAF's refusal to bomb the railway tracks to the concentration camps, refusal to bomb the camps entrances, refusal to bomb the camps administrative sections;
2. all the damage, the unneccesary casualties we have suffered, and the property damage we have suffered due to your government's refusal to allow to buy arms in 1947-48, the loss of life, property and possible income, by following your government's bad advice has cost us, and
3. after we deduct the lost revenue for all the defense deals your government's interference in has cost in the last 25 years.
I get the feeling, that when the tally is all finished, the United States will owe us quite a large sum.