In the interest of full disclosure, let me start by saying that The Obnoxious American is of Jewish heritage and faith and a strong supporter of the state of Israel. Upon first hearing about the Annapolis conference between Israel and most Arab states, I had a near immediate feeling of deja vu.
About eight years ago, former President Clinton tried running the same play, a last ditch effort to bolster his flailing legacy. Then as now, it wasn't at all clear how the President's tenure would be tallied amongst the great leaders of this country's past. It's a shame that selfish desires drive such noble efforts, but that is the American way after all.
The problem with Annapolis, with the US led roadmap to peace, doesn't lie with the US. Although now, as then, when (not if) it fails it will be laid at the feet of the President.
The other problem with Annapolis is that it gives legitimacy to the gripes of America and Israel's enemies. CNN and other American mainstream media were happy to report that "Israel is 'ready' for a deal", saying that the only sticking points were merely the fate of Jerusalem, the right of return, and the labeling of Israel as a Jewish state. Sounds pretty innocuous right?
It's worth noting that Israel has always been ready to work out some sort of agreement with the Palestinians, in hopes that the never-ending barrage of missiles being shot over its border, and the drumbeat of terrorists attacks on its civilians would stop. No news there. In fact, during the last eight or so years of the Palestinians' destructive intifada, Israel has tried releasing prisoners, turning over settlements, making peace arrangements, all to no avail. Furthermore, as far as I can remember, the specific issues that have been identified in Annapolis have always existed.
Not to say that Israel has been perfect. When provoked, there have been times where the response could have been more measured. That said, when you are being slowly victimized sometimes you act out of turn. However, even when the response has been outsized, Israel still showed restraint. They have the military power to completely decimate the Palestinians. They haven't.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - handyguy
People who differ with Israel's policies are already legitimate, just as Israel's policies themselves are legitimate - they are not "given legitimacy" by this conference. If the conference only recognized one point of view, it really would be pointless.
If the two sides never get around to negotiating, but continue instead to feed a cycle of violence and retribution, there is no happy ending for anyone in Israel or Palestine.
Bush and Rice's efforts may end up being too little, too late, but they are much, much better than not trying at all. By being so suspicious of everyone's motives, isn't the writer of this article, just as much as the rioters in the West Bank yesterday, demonstrating that he doesn't really want to pursue peace - or doesn't really believe it's possible? Does he perhaps prefer to keep the status quo of a long-simmering war?
There are too many on both sides who see their only way to 'win' as a continuing war rather than an attempt at peace.
2 - The Obnoxious American
Handyguy,
I hear what you are saying, and I agree that more than one view should be represented. My point here is that if we are starting the discussion questioning things like whether Israel should be a Jewish state then clearly one side of the discussion isn't being serious. Similar to the other points that need resolving.
For example, rather than right of return, if the discussion was about reparations for Palestinians, that would be a solvable solution. But right of return simply means the end of Israel. Yet the media doesn't really portray it that way.
The point here is that Annapolis might have been a good try, but you need more than one partner for peace.
3 - The Obnoxious American
Handyguy,
I gotta say, after re-reading your post, i am offended. What an excersize of moral relativism.
Do I think peace is unachievable? Did you even read the article or the points I made?
Being so suspicious? Did you even read the article or the points I made?
"Does he perhaps prefer to keep the status quo of a long-simmering war? "
I will quote from the article so I don't have to type it twice:
"Israel is here to stay and for there to ever be peace in the Middle East, the Arab world needs to accept and welcome Israel as a permanent neighbor. To do otherwise just means more struggle, more innocent people dying, and more problems for the rest of the world. Unfortunately, given the issues that have been raised in Annapolis, I think that the majority of the attendees aren't really interested in a peace that includes the state of Israel."
To compare me to rioters in the west bank has lowered my opinion of you by a few notches. Stop dealing in relativism and actually read these things if you are going to comment.
4 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Obnoxious,
Your article, written as it is, probably represents the views of most American Jews who are more or less sympathetic to the idea of a Jewish state, even though they might not want to live here. In all fairness, I can't ask for more from you, though your article is a disappointment to me.
The fact that you got offended at handyguy's moral relativism and the moral relativism of the comments that are sure to follow on his heels from others who, like the citizens of ancient Nineveh, "don't know their right from their left" shows that there is more than just "a pintele Yid" in your soul. This is good as far as it goes. But it doesn't go far enough.
Now let's get to the important points, points that you missed altogether. On the Jewish calendar, this country was partitioned by the United Nations sixty years to the day of the conference in Annapolis. On 16 Kislev 5708, the United Nations voted to partition the Palestine Mandate into a Jewish and an Arab state. On 16 Kislev 5768, Israeli leaders went to Maryland to sign a suicide pact that refused to even name this country as a Jewish state. In short, exactly sixty years to the day, the idiotic traitors from Jerusalem went to Maryland to undo what the United Nations did.
This is not a coincidence. It is symbolic. The fools do not realize it, but on 27 November 2007, the leaders signed the epitaph of the State of Israel.
Put simply, the "Jewish State", which is collapsing around us anyway, is over. All that is left is the execution. That is what will follow in the not too distant future when missiles from Syria, Gaza, Lebanon and Iran rain down on this country, destroying the infrastructure from Akko in the north to Ashklelon in the south. May G-d help us and have mercy on our souls when this happens, for many will die. I have anonymous sources with close and reliable links in Israeli intelligence warning of just this. One estimate I have is 22,000. I suspect that the death toll will be far higher here in the end.
But in the process of the Redemption, many many more will die abroad.
This is the significance of Annapolis. When the mashiaH ben Yosef, what is really the Zionist movement, and its accomplishment, the Zionist state, is killed, the way is cleared for the mashiaH ben David, the spiritual redeemer of the People of Israel (and of the entire world) to arrive.
Artificial divisions between religion and politics that secular fools, blinded by the misconceptions of Greek culture, insist on, do not apply here. History happens in one organic whole, for there is but One G-d directing its course.
It does not matter how many bagels with a shmear you eat, Obnoxious, or even how many blessings you recite in shul or over the things you do, if you even do so. This is not stuff you learn in Exile. This is why the "pintele Yid" you show in taking offense at morally relativistic comments does not go far enough. You do not get to see the whole picture, or even get the opportunity to sense the need to see the whole picture when you are in exile, pledging allegiance to passing and temporary phenomena, like the United States of America.
You have not forgotten Zion - but you have not put Jerusalem above your chieftest joy. You are like one of those people in Niniveh - you neither know your right from your left. That is why I'm disappointed.
A parting shot for you. If G-d is good to you, you will see the proof of my words. You will see the fall of the Statue of Liberty, the New Colossus in New York Harbor. This was prophesied 1,500 years ago in the Galilee.
5 - handyguy
"Moral relativism" = the opinions of anyone who disagrees with hard-line militarist Israeli policies in the Middle East; or of anyone who dares suggest that there is more than one point of view possible in this conflict.
Related terms: "Jew hater," "anti-Semite," "terrorist sympathizer"
6 - Lee Richards
Politics poisons religion with the corruption of "us vs. them" extremism, and dogmatic religion infects politics with the virus of deluded fanaticism.
That, alone, is enough to doom this effort as it has so many others there. This time, U.S. credibility is likely to suffer a huge hit because we've agreed to judge both sides' compliance, which would seem to be an impossible task.
As before in this part of the world, we've again decided to stumble around in a room jammed with powder kegs and our hands full of lighted matches and no idea where the door is.
Unless the administration can pray up a few miracles of its own, the liklihood that our prestige--and possibly our safety--in the M.E. and around the world will take a huge propaganda hit(if no other kind)from the assorted extremists, fanatics, radicals, and terrorists involved is more predictible than peace is.
7 - The Obnoxious American
Well that wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it would be. Since you asked, I do know my right and my left, or else I'd have killed myself on the roads long ago :> Also, I don't eat bagels (too many carbs) hate shmear (dont eat cream cheese or locks or whatever) - gimme a steak instead. I don't practice judaism, done enough of the religious thing in my life.
Ruvy, I didn't realize you believed in a soon to come apocolypse. I don't happen to share that view, nor do I buy into these massive conspiracy theories of yours.
Did I tell you that I am an American and a Jew? First and foremost however, I am human, and I think of that as my first team. Yes, there are plenty of bad guys on the human team. But to believe in G-d, is to believe in what he created, mankind. I have faith in mankind, in most of mankind anyway. There have been times when mankind failed that faith, but ultimately each situation was rectified.
To your view, I didn't go far enough. But to my view, I went as far as I should. Reason being because the Palestinians are on the first team too. They may have some really crappy leadership, and they are at fault for electing Hamas. But they are learning and I have faith in at least some of them to ultimately make the right choice.
I really hope that the scenario you describe is exactly what I referred to earlier, a conspiracy theory and not a conspiracy fact. But should there be an effort to kill off the jews you can be sure Jews all over the world, as well as many Christians, will be there to back you up. Just be cordial to us when we do please.
8 - Moonraven
The idea of a Peace Conference under the "aegis" of one of the most conflictive/bellicose guys on the planet is a joke.
And not a very funny one.
There is only one solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict: De-country Israel.
I suggest that the Brits on this site start lobbying to have its Zionist inhabitants transported to West Midlands.
9 - Dr Dreadful
Moonraven, surely even you can't be heartless enough to call for the population of Israel to be forced to move to Birmingham...!
10 - The Obnoxious American
HandyGuy,
You caught me. I just throw out those terms and make statements and don't even try to back it up with anything other than shrill outrage. Oh wait, thats you :>
I can tell you that I only ever make the relativism charge when people try to compare the activities of non-terrorists with those of terrorists.
I am using the power of the pen (keyboard) to express ideas and possibly reach out to people with them. At worst, I start a discussion, at best, I help change someone's mind (or they change mine). And you compared me to West Bank Rioters. If that isn't moral relativism, then I don't know what is.
Did you ever go back and actually read this article?
11 - The Obnoxious American
Lee,
Great post, although to be fair Clinton tried to do the exact same thing. I think ultimately we won't take a real hit just like we didn't as a result of Oslo. Can't knock someone for trying. On the other hand, Olmert and Abbas will take hits, both internally and from other nations, if this goes nowhere. If you think about it, that's one of the most scary ideas about this. Israel will find a new leader. But if Abbas is discredited, then what? His position is already questionable. Shouldn't Hamas be in Anapolis? Oh, but they are a terrorist group right? Probably couldn't get a flight out.
Moonraven, yeah let's de-countryfy Israel, just like the Pilgrams did to the Native Americans right? I can't believe YOU of all people would say something like that. Tsk tsk! You got some splaining to do to your bretheren...
12 - Moonraven
Hardly the same situation: We were living on this land for thousands of years without raising hell--even welcomed folks who came here!
The Israelis were troublemakers even in biblical times--which is why they were frequently held captive in other countries by the powerful empires of the day (Assyrians, Egyptians, etc.) and were BOOTED out of the area 2 thousand years ago.
Birmingham is a hell hole, too good for the Zionist terrorists, but it was YOU BRITS who gave into them to fight Rommel in the desert.
You made your bed--er, decision--I suggest you take them in.
But I am NOT suggesting you check to see if cattle cars are allowed to go through the Eurotunnel. I am not a genocidal maniac like the majority of folks posting on this site.
13 - The Obnoxious American
Glass houses MR, very disappointed with your logic. For your information, Jews lived in Israel for thousands of years as well, before Islam even existed. How is that any different from the plight of Native Americans?
Jews caused trouble during biblical times? You do realize that the old testament IS the jewish Bible right?
If this were anyone else I'd think you were pulling my leg with these responses. But I'm never sure about you...
14 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Obnoxious,
Actually, while I find your views disappointing, they are not obnoxious at all. Misguided is the word I'd prefer.
But actually, I'm not quoting you conspiracy theories at all. The warnings of impending missile attacks come from sources in Israeli intelligence, and if you had been following the news here as closely as I have, you would have noticed the buildup of missiles. Facts, not conspiracies or even theories.
Olmert walked away from Annapolis with a statement that did not define Israel as a Jewish state, and Bush got his knuckles wrapped for attempting to interfere in the region by, of all people, Saeb Erekat, the South Syrian Arab representative. So, in essence, Olmert agreed to undo what the UN did in 1947. He undid Israel as a Jewish State. More facts.
Before I look at the Bible, the Talmud, or the Holy Zohar for answers, which is where I do look, I look at the facts first. What I've reported to you above are the obnoxious facts.
The symbolism of the sixty year cycle, the prophecies of the m'kubalim, the seven year cycle that will bring about the Redemption, the concept of the mashiaH ben Yosef dying so that the mashiaH ben David can arrive, are all organizing principles. But without the facts, that is all they are.
What is so scary about what I see is that the facts are falling into the patterns predicted by the organizing principles I just outlined above.
Unfortunately, you haven't got a clue as to what I'm talking about. You're not stupid. You just are not used to looking at facts with these organizing principles applied to them.
As for Marthe Raymond, she will get what she wants - the end of the Zionist state. But in a short time, an entity will arise in Eretz Yisrael that will be the beacon of the religion and of the nation of Israel. No sovereign Arab entity will ever arise on the soil of this country.
There will be a reconciliation of the Children of Ishmael and the Children of Israel, Obnoxious. Go pick up a Tana"kh and read in the English Isaiah 60:7-8. That is where it is prophesied.
As I said, if G-d is good to you, you will see the end of Christian misrule of the world, and it will be symbolized by the fall of the New Colossus in New York Harbor.
15 - The Obnoxious American
Ruvy,
I didn't think the Missle part was weird, just the New York harbor talk.
Olmert didn't agree to Israel not being a Jewish state. It's one of the issues that have to be worked out before next year when the two sides have pledged to finalize this sort out. The only thing Olmert has agreed to is to work on the peace deal with a targeted resolution date in 08.
I find it puzzling that you are saying this to me about Jewish statehood, when that topic was the very first that I addressed in the article (in favor of it being a Jewish state I might add).
People all over the world read the mainstream media, and the coverage says, well Olmert and Abbas met and they agreed to make peace in 08, the only sticking points being whether Israel is a Jewish state and some yadada about right of return. Most people hearing this think, oh well thats no big deal. And when Israel says no, most people say well why is Israel so difficult.
The point of this article is to break down exactly why these minor issues that CNN so glibly says just need to be worked out, are really deal killers. It's to remind people just why Israel ultimately won't accept this psuedo peace deal. I think the article does a fine job of doing that, touching on virtually every point, settlements, the jewish state question, right of return.
If you came here expecting an incendiary, anti muslim rant, that's not what you are going to get here. You are going to get a sober, fair reading of the situation. What I just find puzzling about you is that on every point, I side with the state of Israel. I say that this isn't a real peace deal. The last sentence in the article calls into question whether Israel has a partner for peace. And you lecture me on being naive or asleep or something. Are you actually reading this article or just assuming that because I'm not on the kibbutz with you that I get all my news from CNN? I do read debka files you know...
It's really kind of annoying Ruvy. You don't know me or how I feel. But you could try reading some of my articles one of these days if you ever want to start.
16 - The Obnoxious American
Right, so by your words, the Jews were booted out of the area. Kind of exactly like what happened to Native Americans.
The main difference between the state of Israel and the state of Native Americans is that Jews actually got their country back - exactly what you wish the Native Americans could get. That you have a problem with Israel, yet clamor for the exact same thing for Native Americans is inexplicable.
Obviously, although the plight of the Jews and the plight of Native Americans is very similar, by your words it's evident you don't hold Jews in the same regard as your own people. That makes you a damned racist and as bad as any John Smith or pilgrim out there.
By engaging in this argument the way you have, you've exposed yourself as a giant hypocrite and an anti semite.
17 - The Obnoxious American
Umm, incidentally, I was replying to a post by Moonraven (i know I should know better) where she called me ignorant **** and affirmed that the Jews were booted out of Israel. her post is now missing. My reply above is in response to that post (just so yall don't think I am talking to myself :>)
18 - Christopher Rose
Obnoxious: you need to take on board that when moonraven goes beyond the bounds of passionate debate into the realms of personal attack, her remarks are either going to be edited or deleted, depending on the debate/bile ratio. That goes for anyone else's remarks too.
19 - The Obnoxious American
I understand that. But without her post it looks like I just randomly posted something up there 12 hours after my last post. People might think I am crazy, or at least more crazy.
20 - moonraven
And those people whyo thinkn that you are crazy would be correct.
I am not an anti-semite, BTW: Arabs are just fiine with me.
21 - moonraven
"Last week the prestigious Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz reported that top right-wing politicians in Israel have achieved a “targeted assassination” of the peace process. They’ve put up obstacles to peace so high that Olmert, a weak leader at best, can never pull them down.
They got the Knesset, Israel’s parliament, to pass a law that 2/3 of the Knesset must approve any changes in the boundaries of Jerusalem. That will never happen. So the Israeli negotiators in the “peace process” can never accede to a fundamental Palestinian demand, that both nations share Jerusalem as their capitals.
They also got a hidden “kicker” in the joint declaration issued at Annapolis: “The parties also commit to immediately implement their respective obligations under the performance-based road map.” Israel has always insisted that its obligations under the road map begin only after the Palestinian authorities have suppressed all anti-Israeli violence. Ha’aretz reports that the right-wingers who want to block peace are requiring Olmert to persist in the peace-blocking policy."
Excerpt from commondreams article by Ira Chernus.
Like I said, the ONLY way to have peace in the region is to kick the zionists OUT.
Diaspora all over again, just like in 597.
Sounds good to me.
Just stay the hell away from Turtle Island.
22 - The Obnoxious American
Fine for you to have that viewpoint, but then don't complain about what happened to Native Americans, and don't talk about Native Americans getting their own land back.
Diaspora all over again, just like in Jamestown.
23 - The Obnoxious American
Whatever MR, you are a total hypocrite. You complain about Native Americans getting booted off of their land, and how they deserve to get it back, but in the same breath make comments about how the Jews should be booted out of Israel. If you don't see the total hypocrisy of your position, then you my dear are blind.
What's the explanation for this paradox? How can you explain some of the other derogatory comments you've made about my bretheren in Israel and the total disregard for them in any struggle? You hate Jews. Even bringing up the whole semite=arab thing just goes to show where your mind is at. Not that your mindset is really a surprise to anyone here, but I wanted to highlight just how much of a racist you really are, despite all of the populist mumblings coming out of your keyboard.
24 - Baronius
Look, Chris, you've got great time management skills to keep up with all the personal attacks on the boards. I don't dispute that. But you're not there at the moment of the conversation. You can't keep ahead of the abuse curve. And for the longer-term, after you're done expunging the boards, the narrative sometimes doesn't make sense any more. You've got to provide more of the conversational flow, or better yet, admit that this isn't working and ban the bird.
25 - Sam
Its always amazing to me when people talk of Israel's concessions. How can an occupier talk of concessions!!
You are settled on some one else's land. This is recognised by the UN. Illegal settlements. You have 11,000 people locked up without a proper trial. You have "Jews Only" Roads, and by the looks of this map are steadily encroaching on your neighbor's lands.
How can a thief demand the right to be heard?
Utterly senseless world.