Listen up Bush voters, the writing is on the wall! As a non-American who, along with most humans, does not live in America - I find the post 9-11 developments in that country somewhat alarming. For the news CNN won't run, check out my blog Offshore News plug plug :-) Most Americans I've met like to harp on about "Freedom" when you ask what it is they love about their country. It's difficult not to laugh out loud when Americans talk about "freedom", cause they don't seem too keen on freedom from what I'm seeing.
What does that mean exactly, "Freedom"? The USSA is fast becoming one of the most heavily governed countries on the planet, and it's citizens cheer on with hand on chest as wave after wave of assaults on their "Freedom" get passed into law, all in the name of Homeland Security. You're already living in a police state people, how much more "freedom" do you want? Ever used an American international airport?
Probably not, less than 10% of Americans have passports, so they're stuck in their own goldfish bowl with very little awareness of the big wide world out there. American airports are the very heartland of bureaucratic stupidity and over regulation, and ten times worse than any in Europe or elsewhere. They've banned lighters in all luggage now, including checked bags - yet strike anywhere matches are just fine.. Pastor Chuck Baldwin wrote an interesting article below that I ran on my site Offshore News and I think it should be compulsory reading for all Americans. From this non-American, IMHO you all need a slap in the face! Wakey wakey, your freedom is running out America.
- PATRIOTISM DOES NOT MEAN SUPPORT OR LOVE OF BIG GOVERNMENT
By Pastor Chuck Baldwin
April 12, 2005
NewsWithViews.com
A strange metamorphosis has taken place in America, especially among conservatives. From its original definition of love of country, especially love for the founding principles of the country, patriotism has morphed into a love for bigger and bigger government. It seems that to most conservatives today, if anyone dares speak against any federal program or initiative, he or she is categorized as being unpatriotic or even ungodly. Many conservatives even equate a person's support or lack thereof for our President as being a major determinant of his or her spirituality.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Bennett Dawson
Great post, thanks. As a patriot who abhors the continued growth of our federal government, and the current administration's devotion to bullshit before truth, I'm going to Amazon to get this book.
Thanks again!
2 - SFC SKI
Hey, Jeremy, you misspelled USA. You can see the proper spelling in your passport.
Your opening paragraphs are a classic example of how to make sure that no matter how good your ideas or your blog may be, some readers won't make it that far.
3 - andy marsh
Personally, I think you should mind your own fucking business!
4 - andy marsh
Patriotism also doesn't mean listening to people that don't even live here spouting about shit they've never had or ever will.
5 - Bennett Dawson
Patriotism means using your brains, if you have them, to protect the freedoms you have. Listening to opinions, regardless of what country the writer happens to live in, is a way of learning more about the world. At this point in history, hearing how our country, and our politics, is perceived by non-Americans can be very enlightening.
Do you think that the USA is the only country in the world where the citizens value freedom? Do we have some built in lock on the truth? Get a grip Andy. Or are you so set in your programmed chauvinism that you're unable to see beyond third grade flag waving?
6 - SFC SKI
Bennett, you are right.
I am not disregarding the criticisms, but when someone starts his discourse in a disparaging tone, he is going to set himsoelf up for a hostile reaction if he gets a response from me at all.
7 - Bennett Dawson
SFC SKI, Jeremy's intro is a bit rough, especially in thinking that "Bush Voters" is a valid description of citizens of the USSA (sorry, it makes me grin to see it like that).
What I appreciated was the article by Pastor Chuck Baldwin. Someone invite him to join BC!!!
8 - Jeremy
SFC SKI - oh, the irony!!
Andy - your mindless flag hugging is hilarious. You'll need to travel a bit to learn about "freedom" - and what you'll find is that the USA is a tightly regulated, restrictive, litiguous and overpoliced country, compared to many others. Or you could just go watch some more CNN, theres a good little citizen. Always remember: Big Brother Knows Best. We need these laws to keep you free. hahahaha
Bennet - as you can see, I'm playing devil's advocate here, it's the Andy's of America that my post was aimed at :-)
thanks for your comments.
p.s I love America. Great holiday destination. But I wouldn't want to live there, and I wouldnt want a US passport, that's for sure.
9 - Dave Nalle
Strange how this jingoistic patriotism I keep hearing about is only visible to leftists, especially outside the US. From where I'm sitting in Libertarian land nothing about the Bush administration or its supporters is particularly patriotic. That's certainly not their primary motivation. I will say that they're not openly anti-American, unlike so many on the left. But not hating America is not the same as being jingoistic. It seems as if some people won't be satisfied until everyone - even Americans - agrees that we're the great Satan and covers us with spit and bile.
It's not even in the nature of Americans to be patriotic about a president or an administration. They're just there to do a job. We may be proud of our country, or eager to stand up for its values, but that rarely carries over to a particular leader or administration.
I certainly don't see a huge outpouring of patriotism in America today. We're not even all that gung ho about the War in Iraq. Those who support it do so on a mostly pragmatic basis because it's a job that has to be done. There's no issue of it being a great patriotic crusade or anything like that. It's very much more a sense of responsibility and duty, not to our nation, but to humanity.
From what I can tell this whole idea of out of control patriotism is something cooked up to make Americans look simplistic and driven by irrational nationalism - yet when you look at it there's nothing to it.
Dave
10 - bhw
Last semester, one of my college writing students said that he didn't think America was very free at all compared to his country, Greece. He was talking about all the regulations on personal behavior.
It's always interesting to hear what America's freedom looks like to someone who comes to live here or visit for the first time.
11 - SFC SKI
Jeremy, I have lived in Europe for about 10 years, and I have stamps from 4 different continents in them, so you can spare me the "worldly-wise" viewpoint, I've been enough places to know that no place is perfect.
Thanks for bring the article to my attention, but your personal tone is very off-putting.
12 - SFC SKI
I meant stamps in my passports.
13 - Dave Nalle
>>Last semester, one of my college writing students said that he didn't think America was very free at all compared to his country, Greece. He was talking about all the regulations on personal behavior.<<
We have regulations on personal behavior? I guess he must mean anti-smoking laws and laws against public drunkenness. I can't think of a hell of a lot of others. No gold medallion or excessive chest hair display restrictions here to bother Greek visitors.
Dave
14 - Dave Nalle
I have to laugh. Has anyone checked out Jeremy's website? Apparently he's the chief advocate for an industry built on the high taxation of the democrat years and devastated by Bush's tax cuts. No partiality there, oh my no.
Dave
15 - Jeremy
OK, my intro was a bit rough, intentionally. I'm not really anti-American. But flame baiting always did amuse me. Sorry to those who took offense. :-)
BHW, there are plenty of countries where the population enjoys more freedom than USA, which is what makes Bush's B.S so hilarious. He almost sounds as if he believes it himself, but I dont think he's that stupid.
Dave, I dont think the issue is uniquely observed by the lefty's at all. You only need to see how your country is portrayed overseas in the press releases and soundbites from the likes of Condoleeza Rice to understand this. The control patriotism you speak of is obviously a deliberate ploy - the un-patriotic and self serving reality
of your current administration just seems to this writer to be far more widely accepted outside the US than it is domestically. The anti-Americanist rants outside the US can be equally as deafening but I thought it was an interesting article.
16 - Bennett Dawson
Dave, We're pretty patriotic up here in VT. Not the flag wavin' sort, but the involved in local government sort. That we're rural, and have a solid system of town meetings/voting certainly helps.
I despise chauvinism, and consider it one of the great opiates of the masses. I equally despise weak apologetic folks that cower and cringe, instead of getting a grip on "Where are we right now, and what needs to be done?"
You wrote "We're not even all that gung ho about the War in Iraq. Those who support it do so on a mostly pragmatic basis because it's a job that has to be done. There's no issue of it being a great patriotic crusade or anything like that. It's very much more a sense of responsibility and duty, not to our nation, but to humanity."
Wow, I heartily disagree (other than the part about not being gung ho about the war in Iraq). Those that support the war do so because they have husbands and brothers and daughters in the National Guard dying in Iraq, and they don't want to think their loved ones are fighting a meaningless war.
Why are we in Iraq, "A duty to humanity?" Uhhhhh... No.
We're in Iraq because GW committed our armed forces based on totally bogus intelligence.
17 - Bennett Dawson
Yeah, and I went and checked out Jeremy's website. But I'm not going to shoot the messenger. Pastor Chuck Baldwin's piece has LOTS of merit.
Bennett
18 - Leoniceno
I don't think that patriotism is ever the United States' primary motivation for very long. Maybe for a while after national catastrophes like 9-11, or near the start of a war, but other factors take over rather quickly, the most predominant being "What's going to make me the most profit?"
19 - Bennett Dawson
Leoniceno, you echo my wife's low opinion of "business as usual".
"To hell with morality, it's all about profit."
20 - Dave Nalle
Jeremy, if the patriotic fervor of the US is only being perceived from outside and not necessarily from the inside, then is it real, or is it a creation of the foreign media?
Bennett: "Dave, We're pretty patriotic up here in VT. Not the flag wavin' sort, but the involved in local government sort. That we're rural, and have a solid system of town meetings/voting certainly helps. "
Well sure, that's the ordinary kind of love-of-country patriotism we all have. It's not the flag-in-your-face, nationalistic jingo-patriotism the Europeans seem to see when they look at us.
>>Wow, I heartily disagree (other than the part about not being gung ho about the war in Iraq). Those that support the war do so because they have husbands and brothers and daughters in the National Guard dying in Iraq, and they don't want to think their loved ones are fighting a meaningless war.<<
Stopping mass murders, rapes, torture and other crimes against humanity is meaningless? Boy, your values are seriously screwed up.
>>Why are we in Iraq, "A duty to humanity?" Uhhhhh... No.
We're in Iraq because GW committed our armed forces based on totally bogus intelligence.<<
I think you're dead wrong here. Even looking back to when we first went to Iraq, it wasn't to advance our national interests. Even when WMDs were the driving motivation the objective was neutralizing a danger to us and to the rest of the world - our duty took us there, not our ambitious. And even if the WMDs weren't there or got moved out, the war still had and has merit because we're making that part of the world a better place for those who live there and ultimately to the benefit of everyone else who will be under less of a threat with a more democratic middle east.
Dave
21 - Bennett Dawson
Dave, you said "our duty took us there, not our ambitions"
Hmmmm. Okay Dave, if you say so. Granted, what we thought about Saddam's arsenal was reason to keep an eye on his country, but even at his wickedest (gassing Kurdistan) he murdered 5,000 citizens. What's the body count in Iraq? Yeah, 1,200 Americans, but the Iraqi body count is in the tens of thousands. Okay, let's eliminate the bad guys who deserve to be dead. What, ten thousand innocent men, women, and children killed in car bombs attacks, suicide bombers, and good old friendly fire? Shit, the Republican Guard (love that name) could have kept that from happening! How have we saved lives by invading Iraq? Future lives? What? Who and how many actual living breathing walking around Iraqis would be more alive, or more dead, if America had stayed the course and continued the sanction program that had contained (at least limited, despite the comi-pinko cheating profiteering bastards at the UN) Saddam's evil doing-ness? No matter what, Saddam couldn't have killed HALF the folks we've managed to kill in the last two years.
Let's talk about Darfour and "duty to humanity...." Oh, What was that?
"And even if the WMDs weren't there or got moved out, the war still had and has merit because we're making that part of the world a better place for those who live there and ultimately to the benefit of everyone else who will be under less of a threat with a more democratic middle east. "
See above, twice!
500 BILLION DOLLARS and 1,200 AMERICAN LIVES
Yeah, let's reform Social Security.
22 - Dave Nalle
>>Hmmmm. Okay Dave, if you say so. Granted, what we thought about Saddam's arsenal was reason to keep an eye on his country, but even at his wickedest (gassing Kurdistan) he murdered 5,000 citizens. <<
Um, that's 180,000 Kurds killed in a series of gas attacks, plus an average of over 5000 Iraqis a month killed for one reason or other.
>>What's the body count in Iraq? Yeah, 1,200 Americans,<<
No, it's a bit over 1500.
>> but the Iraqi body count is in the tens of thousands. Okay, let's eliminate the bad guys who deserve to be dead. What, ten thousand innocent men, women, and children killed in car bombs attacks, suicide bombers, and good old friendly fire? <<
Yes, and who killed them with car bombs, suicide boms, etc? Was it us? No, it was terrorists who invaded their country to try to fill the power vacuum created when we took down Saddam.
>>Shit, the Republican Guard (love that name) could have kept that from happening! How have we saved lives by invading Iraq? Future lives? What? Who and how many actual living breathing walking around Iraqis would be more alive, or more dead,<<
Well, the total number dead as a result of our invasion is lower than the number of civilians killed by their own government over a similar period during Saddam's reign.
>> if America had stayed the course and continued the sanction program that had contained (at least limited, despite the comi-pinko cheating profiteering bastards at the UN) Saddam's evil doing-ness? No matter what, Saddam couldn't have killed HALF the folks we've managed to kill in the last two years.<<
No, he killed considerably more. Not to mention that the sanctions did even more damage to the civilian population - estimates of the dead from the sanctions run as high as 500,000, because Saddam took the money that was supposed to buy his people food and spent it on palaces.
>>500 BILLION DOLLARS and 1,200 AMERICAN LIVES<<
Wow, you're really not good with math or facts. The total cost of the war - projected through the end of this year - by generous estimates is $207 billion.
>>Yeah, let's reform Social Security.<<
Well, I'm all for it.
Dave
23 - Bennett Dawson
One more time in case you missed it:
"we're making that part of the world a better place for those who live there and ultimately to the benefit of everyone else who will be under less of a threat with a more democratic middle east."
(I really can't believe how weak that sounds)
500 BILLION DOLLARS - 1,200 AMERICAN LIVES - 10.000 INNOCENT IRAQI WOMEN AND CHILDREN
24 - Dave Nalle
Ok, so there's a price to pay. I don't see your point, except that you've found new ways to shout in text. The price you quote - or the correct numbers - are a small price to pay for the lives ultimately saved and the stability our actions will bring to that part of the world.
BTW, you didn't even bother to read my previous comment, did you?
Dave
25 - Bennett Dawson
Sorry, we cross posted, I need to revise my numbers upward.
Anyway, you said: "Um, that's 180,000 Kurds killed in a series of gas attacks, plus an average of over 5000 Iraqis a month killed for one reason or other."
and...
"Well, the total number dead as a result of our invasion is lower than the number of civilians killed by their own government over a similar period during Saddam's reign.
Aaaaamazing! He pulled those two directly out of his rectum folks!
300 BILLION DOLLARS - 1,500 AMERICAN LIVES - 10,000 INNOCENT IRAQI WOMEN AND CHILDREN (but hey, WE didn't kill 'em, a POWER VACUUM killed 'em)