The VP debate. You're not going to miss it, and we all know exactly why.
These are serious times. The economy, the cultural civil war, the two real wars and the seemingly endless list of franchise opportunities that lay on the horizon - all immensely serious topics.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Silas Kain
Works for me, Cindy! So, judging by how flustered Joe Biden is, Sarah Palin is executing well.
27 - Cindy D
They were wrong when they told Biden to be polite.
He should run over to her podium and put her in a choke hold. This would appeal to at least two large demographics A ) educated people and B) pro wrestling fans.
Likely the hockeymoms are all married to the pro-wrestling fans and then it would be all sewn up for Obama.
28 - Brad Laidman
I didn't like what she had to say and she did some end runs around the things that she didn't want to talk about, but it certainly wasn't a train wreck - oh well
Her avoidance of McCain's unwillingness to regulate wall street, while she blamed wall street and promised to keep government out of things was pretty odd though.
I've been on Wall Street for years - it's a Republican orgy
29 - bliffle
I think Biden made a better impression. He was sharper on the issues, with more and better data and he put it into perspective.
Palin came across, to me, as a sort of automaton, just repeating her Maverick pitch and a few other familiar talking points.
Biden killed when he almost broke up discussing his family. His family reference, though very brief, was much more effective than Palins repetitious momism.
30 - Silas Kain
Wall Street a Republican orgy? Do your homework, friend. Wall Street lobbyists distribute the wealth equally between the parties. The Democrats will have you believe that Wall Street is a decidedly Republican place. Do your homework. Follow the money trail. Look at Joe Biden's record in relation to MBNA, Capital One and other financial outfits. Wall Street plays both sides of the aisle by paying off both sides of the aisle.
Comprehensive election finance reform is the only answer to stopping lobbyists dead in their tracks. It means a couple of hundred fat cats from K Street will be out of a job, but who cares? Like it or not, America, Sarah Palin is the only candidate among the 4 who has a slight clue about what it's like for the Middle Class. That doesn't mean she deserves our vote, just the recognition.
31 - Cindy D
So, I take it you disagree with my chokehold strategy?
g,night :-)
32 - Doug Hunter
Yeah, she either doesn't think well on her feet or she has a bit of fright at the size of the stage she's on. There was a torturous bit of rambling on a few of the questions. When she didn't understand she just went back to her energy script.
The regulations question really wasn't that hard to deflect and I'm very surprised her handlers didn't prepare her for it. The bankruptcy one caught her totally off guard. Again, nothing difficult for any amateur political junkie to opine about but obviously foreign to her.
Pretty bad performance by Palin in my opinion. Almost bad enough to keep me home on election day. Certainly bad enough to put me in a foul mood.
33 - Cindy D
That was intended for bliffle, please see my post at "Is a Bailout Necessary" for an adequate reply to your post Silas.
I don't expect it to count against me when you are dividing up the country.
34 - Baronius
Didn't watch much of it. I get so caught up in the facts that I can never get a good impression of how the debates are perceived. Ever notice that? Political people (like most of us) always talk about the lies the other side got away with. Our candidate should have pushed harder; their candidate's not telling the truth. You'll rarely get good analysis of a debate from a partisan.
35 - denise
The one VP candidate needed to realize there are other states besides Alaska, or is that all that candidate really knows? I wondered how this candidate was able to know what went on in the Senate when SHE was not a participant in the Senate, obviously prompted. I personally felt like I watched a mom scolding without KNOWING both sides of the story.
36 - Ruvy
There was only one thing in this whole debate that mattered to me. I didn't hear it because I didn't hear the debate, but it was reported to me by e-mail.
Sarah Palin supports a "two-state solution" in my neighborhood. That means she supports an Arab terror state and kicking me and all of my neighbors here in Ma'alé Levoná, Elí, Shiló etc. out of our homes. So, McCain is no different than Obama, and Palin is no different than Biden.
So far as I'm concerned, they are all the same trash and belong in the same trash bin, but the best choice for me will be the more obvious of the Jew-haters - Obama.
My mind is finally made up.
That does not mean that there will necessarily be an election, of course....
37 - El Bicho
I liked how she kept repeating the oxymoronic phrase "team of mavericks."
38 - Lisa Solod Warren
She held her own, mostly because she didn't answer any questions she didn't want to or couldn't. She had notes. She had talking points. She was folksy and inaccurate. Biden and Obama support gay rights but decided not to push the gay marriage thing during the election...not to worry, Silas.... it will get done.
She didn't implode. But I agree with the NYT. She has nowhere near the experience to be veep. She was coached well, she was clearly nervous as hell and got through it. But she gave up all she had. That was it. She's done.
39 - Doug Hunter
"Biden and Obama support gay rights but decided not to push the gay marriage thing during the election"
In other words, they lied to get votes. Any means to an end when it's your team I suppose. When Republicans lie to get votes I bet it makes you a bit more angry.
40 - Clavos
Ya think, Doug?
Hypocrisy in Dems???
"Say it ain't so, Joe!"
41 - El Bicho
"In other words, they lied to get votes."
When did they ever say they were for gay marriage? All I have ever heard from them is civil unions, but I haven't heard everything they have said. Got a link or are you not allowing the facts to get in the way of a zinger? Say it ain't so, fellas.
42 - Clavos
Here's an interesting analysis, by J Peter Freire, Managing Editor of The American Spectator, not only of Palin's performance last night in the debate, but of the Couric "interview" as well.
In his column, Mr. Freire notes:
Admitting he's no fan of Couric, Mr. Freire makes a number of interesting points about her grilling of Palin vis-a-vis Palin's performances in less structured venues such as the debate. He suggests the McCain staffers have been overhandling Palin, and that she should be allowed much more of a free rein in her appearances, both public and with the press.
Freire concludes with, "Last night's debate showed that McCain made a solid choice, one who shares a characteristic of his. She's at her most interesting when she's in a fight."
43 - Brad Laidman
The American Spectator? Really? You might as well read the National Enquirer.
The truth is that Palin's down to earth routine is as manufactured as any other politician - it's a strategic act.
Couric hardly grilled Palin - she merely asked her for specifics and she couldn't come up with any.
The notion that this is a bias from elites is absurd.
Those elites are big bad and awful - how dare they actually expect her to answer a question beyond her initial talking points.
44 - Baronius
The Couric interview was an obvious trap, and I can't believe that the McCain team walked into it. Couric is a perky morning-show host who's tanking as a news anchor. She's desperate for respect. And she's a female, which means she can go after a female without looking like a playground bully. Of course she was going to make Palin look bad. They should have scheduled with an overrated guy, like Stephanopoulos.
45 - Mark Saleski
which means she can go after a female without looking like a playground bully.
yes, asking which periodicals she reads. that's some tough talk right there.
46 - El Bicho
If she can be outsmarted by Katie Couric, I don't have much hope she can deal with Putin or any of the bad guys in the world.
What makes Palin look bad is when she goes off her rehearsed talking points and has to back up something she said.
47 - Clavos
The American Spectator? Really? You might as well read the National Enquirer.
Or, I could really scrape the bottom and start quoting the NYT.
The truth is that Palin's down to earth routine is as manufactured as any other politician - it's a strategic act.
Perhaps. And what's really bugging all the Dems is that it's working -- with the middle class - -the very demographic they so crave, but can never quite capture.
Couric hardly grilled Palin - she merely asked her for specifics and she couldn't come up with any.
I watched it. It was, as Freire notes, a childish exercise in "gotcha" quizzing of "specifics" not relevant to her abilities. It was not an interview.
The notion that this is a bias from elites is absurd.
You're right. Though certainly biased, Couric is definitely not an elite, even in the narrow (and quite base) spectrum of television "journalism." Indeed, one wonders why she continues to be Peter Principled in her current job.
48 - Mark Saleski
gotcha quizzing?
where does she go for news?
what supreme court decisions has she disagreed with?
opinion on the bailout scenario?
maybe she's been overcoached or whatever, but the inability to deal with those gotcha questions is troubling.
come on, it's not like she asked her about heisenberg's uncertainty principle or something.
49 - Al Barger
So are you feeling less gleeful today after Sister Sarah cleaned Biden's clock?
While we're on the Biden vs Palin topic, the double and triple standards are just stupid. You make a big point of quoting the Couric interview where Palin refused to conjure up a list of her specific news sources. Whoop-te-frickin-do!
Yet on the other hand the plagiarizing gaffe machine says ignorant crap day after day, and it's all good. What was that he said a couple of weeks ago as the financial meltdown was kicking in? Something like that when the market crashed in 1929, FDR went on television to assure people that he was taking charge and doing something. Note that FDR wasn't president, and we didn't have television. Yeah, there's the "smart" one.
50 - El Bicho
"a childish exercise in "gotcha" quizzing of "specifics" not relevant to her abilities."
Actually it was relevant because you don't get to run around saying McCain is for regulation then cry foul when asked for an example and you fail to have one.
Palin did better than people expected, but she cleaned no one's clock. Can you point to a poll other than the one on Drudge that agrees with that statement?
"where Palin refused to conjure up a list of her specific news sources."
She didn't refuse. If she refused, she wouldn't have said "any of them, all of them." She just couldn't do it.
Biden's 1929 comment was ridiculous, but I would prefer he get something like that wrong then not knowing Spain is an ally.
51 - Franco
She has nowhere near the experience to be veep. She was coached well, she was clearly nervous as hell and got through it. But she gave up all she had. That was it. She's done.
I don’t see Palin being done at all. I see her just getting started.
Biden has 36 years experience in both the front and back rooms in DC and in conducting debates on the national stage. Palin has 6 years working up through State government to governor with just 5 weeks in debates on the national stage. Biden should have been able to show her the door, and couldn’t do it.
In fact, Biden was even a bit taken with her during the debate. But Biden did his job for his guy the best he could, even thought Biden once stated Obama did not have the experiance to be President. But Biden hammered away in the debate and he is no push over. Guess what…neither is Palin
Palin is anything but inexperienced in government and has already made her mark as an agent of change. A mark that stands right now as high and any mark on the walls in DC, busting up big oils hold on politices in Alaska. She is smart as a whip, and makes no apologias while she looks you right in the eye which is exactly what she did as governor taking on and braking up big oil, and to boot she throw members of her own party in jail over it.
Ya right, she’s only good when being scripted.
Need you be reminded that actions speak louder then words. She is engaged in actions, not words. I put my money on action.
In their early life achievements, Couric and Palin both gained public attention. Couric was a petite peppy pretty cheerleader on the side lines yelling for her team, while Palin got in the game kicking ass and taking names.
In their later carries, pretty peppy Couric is still on the sidelines yelling for her team albit devoting her efforts to keeping her head above water from the never-ending nightmare is constantly displaying the definition of the Peter Principle. While Palin becomes govenor of the largest state in the union and kicks ass and takes that names of big oil. A job clearly not over her head.
Couric is the kid, not Palin. And as far as what news sources Palin reads, I am sure it is not Couric’s. But after finding out how to kick big oils ass, I’d like to subscribe to what ever it is. Maybe this is why Couric wanted to know.
You say she is too ‘folksy” and too main street for office in DC. I say I hope she not only gets to DC, but it becomes infectious because it is real. Are we afaid of real?
I also wager that Teddy Roosevelt, Will Rodgers was Mark Twain would fully agree tha folksy is real, and they were not afaid of it. You can also count on the fact that tens of millions of Americans agree too. It is a hell of a lot clearer and more positive and friendly and humble then the elite who complain about it.
So you say she shoots moose and wolves, and can even shin them no less. I’ll bet she can serve a hell of a mean moose roast with potatoes and gravy too. But what on the green earth is disqualifying about that?
Pray tell you were ever caught and trapped in a snowstorm or other similar natural disaster without someone like her. She would be like having a medic for food at your side. Your criticizing her for having these skills only exposes (1) you’re own depth of inadequacy, and (2) it makes the absurd assertion that it’s only OK if someone else kills what you eat for you, and this better qualifies you for office in DC.
Oh my God, keep her out of DC......say all the mousses and wolves.
52 - Franco
El Bicho, be honest, do you really believer McCain dose not know Spain is an ally?
53 - El Bicho
Franco, be honest, should McCain be held to a different standard than Biden? These people are on the go 24/7 and are talking almost more than they are thinking, so it's surprising there aren't more inconsequential screw-ups. I am not the one who raised the issue.
54 - Franco
El Bicho, excellent point on all accounts. Excuse the cross up.
55 - Doug Hunter
"When did they ever say they were for gay marriage?"- El Bicho
I was responding to what someone on your team indicated (that Obama Biden were for it but not pushing it during the election). I really don't have much concern for that issue except that gays should be allowed to adopt, have equal legal rights, etc. so I don't know where the candidates stand. If they aren't lying then their positions are very similiar to the Republican candidates.
56 - Cindy D
El Bicho has a team?
57 - Cindy D
I bet they're not a "team of mavericks"!
58 - Silas Kain
Biden and Obama support gay rights but decided not to push the gay marriage thing during the election
It's empty rhetoric. Obama and Biden pander to the LGBT community but won't afford the right for two people of the same sex to have a marriage contract. The religious right loves to parse words, especially 'marriage'. What most on the right fail to realize is that the majority of the "silent" LGBT community is closer in political thought to conservatism than liberalism. We want government out of our lives. We want a government that governs but does not dictate.
59 - Silas Kain
Ruvy, I've followed your links and I must admit I am intrigued by these prophetic words. I can't see how G.W. Bush could actually postpone an election without soliciting a violent reaction from rank and file America. Remember, Ruvy, we maintain the right to bear arms and in this case they would be in hand as Americans on both sides of the aisle would march on Washington in a manner that would make the Battle of Antietam look like another episode of the Mickey Mouse Club. Americans have had it with politics and the status quo. A postponement of the election would facilitate such a revolt.
60 - Baronius
Silas is right. Rudy Giuliani tried to delay the NYC election in late 2001. He proposed it for the best of reasons, in the worst of times. The city turned on him like a crazed Doberman. I can't imagine how awful things would have to be for Bush to be allowed to delay this election.
61 - Dr Dreadful
I'm back.
Other than the complete disappearance of all money from the face of the earth, what'd I miss?
62 - Cindy D
Ten Types of Republicans
63 - Baronius
Huh. I only fit in 7 of those categories. No frat guy, log cabin, or moderate.
64 - Clavos
Noticed your absence, Doc. Whither?
65 - Cindy D
Baronius,
You have me wondering now. Perhaps there are really only 4 types of Republicans.
66 - Silas Kain
To me there are only two kinds of Republicans:
1. Those who use Mrs. Butterworth Syrup.
2. Those who use Log Cabin Syrup.
Vermont Maid users are Independents and, well, I won't even touch the fourth brand.
67 - El Bicho
"I was responding to what someone on your team indicated"
First, Lisa and I aren't on any team together as far as I know. Second, why respond with calling someone a liar when you don't even know the issue, so look before you leap. People can be for civil unions and against gay marriage.
"You make a big point of quoting the Couric interview where Palin refused to conjure up a list of her specific news sources. Whoop-te-frickin-do!"
Apparently, it was a big deal because she offered those answers this morning in her Fox interview.
68 - Dr Dreadful
Wotcher, Clav.
Vacation in Peru. Haven't seen an English-language newspaper in more than two weeks, so I'm a little behind the curve.
As in the US, Peruvian politics appears to be terminally weird and inward-looking, but even Lima takes careful note of events on Wall Street.
69 - RJ Elliott
"If this debate is even considered a tie, Hilary Clinton is replacing him on that ticket in about as much time as it takes for Barack to find her speed dial extension on his cell phone."
The former happened. The latter didn't.
"If Palin goes out there and kicks Biden's ass, that's like the Cubs winning the World Series."
Well, the Cubs are in the playoffs...
"You'll be telling your grandkids about it!"
70 million people watched Sarah Palin debate the well-known master-debater Joe Biden to a draw. Yes, grandchildren will be informed.
70 - Dr Dreadful
Ah, yes, vice-presidential debates. That well-known source of grandparental reminiscence.
I well remember listening, enthralled, at my grandfather's feet as he shared his memories of that unforgettable Curtis-Robinson debate of 1928...
71 - RJ Elliott
Doc,
Google "Dan Quayle" and "1988." Or "James Stockdale" and "1992."
72 - Brad Laidman
Yeah, I admit it - I was hoping for the train wreck - just from an entertainment standpoint
I also admit that she was smart and guileful enough to halt the feeding frenzy of YouTube videos
However she didn't do it by wowing us with her intelligence - she did it with a carefully marketed plan to appear likable - and a dogged determination not to answer questions that she didn't want to answer -
Did you really watch that debate and feel that she could have survived intense questioning?
Instead she reminded us 100 times that she knows about the Alaskan energy market and that John McCain is a maverick
I underestimated how easy it was to game a debate with such a silly structure
Nevertheless, one person sat there and answered questions substantively the other strategically answered what she wanted to
If you hate everything Biden said - if you think that he misrepresented stuff - well, I'm open to that
Read the transcript of the debate - Biden pressed her for instances of John McCain ever regulating anything - maybe twelve times and the moderator tried to steer her there at least twice - and she flat out said - I'm not going to answer that and instead fell back to that old dodge "I love american - don't you - I bet you want to raise their taxes"
There are smart Republicans out there with valid ideas who can substantively discuss the issues of the day - she clearly isn't one of them
73 - Ruvy
Silas,
Ruvy, I've followed your links and I must admit I am intrigued by these prophetic words.
Now, let me explain some of the ironies of life. I grew up in Willimsburg, Brooklyn, in a neighborhood that was 49% Satmar Hassidim, 49% Puerto Rican, and 2% everybody else.
I never liked the Satmar Hassidim as a young man - they considered me a goy; I never liked the Puerto Ricans - they considered me a Jew to be picked on.
This site that fascinates you is not a Purto Rican web-site - there just isn't enough jíbaro phraseology. This is a site run by a Satmar Hassid woman in the States, presumably, New York.
I mention this because the messianic messages encouraging aliya to Israel are coming from people who have no use for Zionism or for the Israeli state, the progeny of Zionism. So when they say "move to Israel" they must think the messiah is about to arrive. So
when they say "move to Israel", I pay attention.
A lot of the message they put out is standard "repent in time" stuff that Christians hear all the time, but of course reflecting our law and customs. But when these guys say "repent in time", saying that time is short, it works a number on me. I understand the theological implications of the arrival of the messiah very well - a lot better than most Jews.
And when I see all the other stuff, the financial instability, the huge numbers of ships readying for war in the Middle East, even a dummy like me can figure out that something is going on.
So, I'm not just "fascinated" by what I read.
I can't see how G.W. Bush could actually postpone an election without soliciting a violent reaction from rank and file America.
I realize that this sounds "out there". It isn't my prediction. But, Gush Qatif was "out there" - the war on Iraq was "out there", the attack on the World Trade Center, Pentagon and attempted attack on the White House was certainly "out there". The financial problems the States are facing, while a foreseeable consequence of irresponsible deficit spending, are also certainly "out there" as well.
So an American government risking a violent reaction by Americans to something that makes the elections meaningless is not as far-fetched as it may seem. Ironically, the only person who would really lose would be Governor Palin....
More ironies. Gives you an idea of what the Big Guy Upstairs is like and what He likes, eh?
74 - Lisa Solod Warren
Comparing Sarah Palin with Teddy Roosevelt, Will Rogers or Mark Twain is absurd. I would bet that Palin has never read a word by any of them, unless she was forced to read some Twain in high school. BEING folksy and SOUNDING folksy are two different things, Franco. Those men were smart thinkers, serious intellectuals who made good common sense, too. Palin drops her "gs" at the end of her words, uses silly phrases that people think are folksy and people find her natural and earthy and not elite (again, as if elite is a bad thing?). I heard a commentator say the other day: "Can't you just hear a parent crying 'Where have I gone wrong?' when his son graduates from Harvard?"
C'mon, guys..... even middle American isn't going to fall for fake folksiness..... and if they are, G-d help them.
By the way, Roosevelt graduated from Harvard, Rogers dropped out of school after the tenth grade and regretted it but TRAVELLED AROUND THE WORLD THREE TIMES, and Samuel Clemens's schooling was less than formal but he had the burning urge to be a writer and studied that. Again, he traveled the US, and with his, obviously brilliant mind, collected the kind of information that would turn up in his classic works of fiction.
NONE of these men's education, ambition, drive or inate intelligence in any way resembles Sarah Palin's peripatetic college career where she attended 5 colleges in 4 years, eventually had a journalism "major" but never wrote for any college paper, then briefly worked as a sportscaster (but professed a love for journalism even though she could not mention a single paper she read regularly). NONE of these men, with their humor and their articulateness, their ability to write, think and speak, can even, in their worse moments be compared in any way to Sarah Palin.
75 - Silas Kain
Indeed, Ruvy. I don't discount the existence of God at all, quite the contrary. It only stands to reason that there be an advanced life form above humanity. I'm just trying to reconcile that which is the Divine Message as opposed to that which has been manufactured to control the masses. The Supreme Being reveals Himself (or Herself) every second of every day. But to believe that God has imposed a set of stringent rules by which we all are to live seems contrary to the teachings of Christ and other great Prophets. Whatever the Ultimate Divine Plan may be, I hope that humanity has advanced to such a degree that we can finally rise above cultural and religious barriers to a point where there can be peaceful, positive coexistence.