The al Qaeda leader and mastermind of terrorist attacks including 9-11 was killed in an attack on a mansion just outside Islamabad.
Osama Bin Laden, the Al Qaeda terrorist leader known as the man behind the the 9-11 attacks and others, has been killed in Pakistan. Immediately after the news broke crowds gathered outside the White House singing patriotic songs and cheering.…
Article comments
26 - Jordan Richardson
Glenn, you're playing fast and loose. Big time.
You may have listed facts, but those facts are not necessarily connected to this case. The double-taps, for instance. Were they used in this case? You don't know. Neither do I. So it's not a "fact" that relates to this situation because we just don't know.
So that, my friend, is an "act of assumption." Listing a series of facts doesn't create an argument or a counter-argument, especially in light of a lack of evidence. Lake's questions were also "based on facts" if we use your logic, by the way.
Your reply, it seems to me, was based on utter and complete faith in your government's account. Understandable, but hardly as admirable as you think it is.
Sometimes it's nice to soak in the comfort of just saying "I don't know yet."
27 - Heloise
I think it was revealed that there was real-time video of the whole damn thing. That's what Obama saw as they carried out the mission. It was the SEAL six extraordinaire who pulled it off.
Not only are there lots of photos but also video. Burial at sea is nasty for the body. But what's strange is that they are like 12 hours ahead of us. So, if Obama came on at 10:30 p.m. and it had just happened it would be nearly noon on Monday there!
They must have killed OBL last Saturday night/Sun morn which would have been early Saturday here. So by the time all was done it would have been Monday pm in Islamabad.
Recall they said he needed to be buried within 48 hours. I've been to India twice and where he was killed would be in about the same time zone. They also do not have Daylight savings time like we do. I arrived at 8:00 a.m. in India and it was DARK outside.
So, you guys seem to be forgetting that India is like 12 hours ahead of us. OBL was killed early early Sun morning their time.
Heloise
28 - El Bicho
Glenn, here's a fact you choose to ignore. The government and military has lied to the American people before.
29 - John Lake
Glen (#28)
You sound like someone dedicated in advance to accept whatever is concocted.
I see it like a major motion picture. Shots from Helicopters, shots from the ground, bin Laden captured. Anger and frustration, bin Laden beaten badly. They bin Laden executed. (The twin shots subject was covered early this morning. More cover-up). At that point, bad vibes all around. Heads will roll. Everything to be gained by display of the body. Parade it through city streets. Plans to get rid of the cadaverous evidence. Burial at sea. Mas melodramatic!
30 - handyguy
If OBL is still alive, wouldn't he be rushing to a video camera to prove it right now, to taunt and ridicule his enemies?
31 - handyguy
John Lake, you and ElB sound like someone dedicated in advance to making unsupported snarky comments about the 'official story,' true or not. Or maybe you are just messing with Glen. Not very appealing in either case.
32 - John Lake
"The official story!!" gag me with a spoon. Heil, Min Furor!
33 - pablo
25 Handguy
When the indisputably largest source of Main Stream News distributes a fake photograph of bin laden in death as Associate Press has, it is noteworthy.
Jordan 24
Your criticism of Glenn is right on the mark. In Glenn's world view there is only one version of FACT, that which he reads in the newspaper and always accepts as gospel. Anyone questioning the veracity and substance of that which is reported as truth, is in Glenn's world delusional.
Rarely other than the esteemed
Dave Nalle have I come across a a commenter as full of themselvesand steeped in ignorance as I have Contrarian.
But hey at least he is honest about admitting that he belongs to the new breed of liberals, the Ronald Wilson Reagan breed, my how far we have come.
34 - zingzing
i for one am willing to accept the story as told so far, although i'm damn sure we're not being told everything, and i doubt we ever will be. information will come out, and it's in the government's interest to make his death undeniable by anyone, including al qaeda. (that said, al qaeda-link message boards seem to be accepting his death as undeniable already.)
conspiracy theories usually have a reason behind them... like 9/11 was perpetrated by the us gov't as a way to get into a war in the middle east to snatch up oil, etc, etc... but what's the reason behind this conspiracy? why would we spend 10 years hunting a guy then suddenly decide to just fake it? why wasn't that done 5 or 6 years ago? where's the benefit in faking it now (or at all)?
undoubtedly, photos, the dna results and maybe even video will be released as they are deemed fit for release. and, undoubtedly, some will declare them fakes. we are in the early days yet, both in learning the full truth and in seeing how the inevitable conspiracy theory will take shape. some will never be happy until they pluck a beard hair from bin laden's rotten chin, but that's just the world we live in.
bin laden, no matter what else he was, was a symbol, worth far more alive than dead. if he doesn't release a video with a post-5/1/11 date on it soon, i'm just going to assume he's dead.
35 - pablo
33 Handguy
There have been numerous reports dating back almost ten years from credible sources, that bin laden has been dead for some time. I would cite them myself, but seeing as you far too lazy and indoctrinated it is not worth my effort.
So to answer your silly question in comment 33. Duhhhhh
36 - pablo
I find it funny when people talk about releasing the DNA evidence. Just how exactly do you verify this? Impossible to say the least, particularly when we all know that there will never be any real unbiased and accurate release of the minutia involved in DNA examination. Not to mention if they were to release such detail, including a sample relative's DNA for comparison, that also could be easily faked. So lets stop with the bullshit about DNA folks.
I do have one conspiracy theory to leave you with though. 9/11 was in point of fact a conspiracy, the only real question is if the governments account of it is accurate and truthful. Anyone even remotely familiar with the case who is intelligent, and of an open mind knows that they (the government) is lying through its slimy teeth.
37 - handyguy
Bin Laden himself provided the most effective rebuttal of 'truther' idiocy. The video of him describing the plot and his remarks about how he and colleagues had only expected the WTC towers to be damaged, not to collapse, is utterly convincing and damning.
As I indicated above, I do think there is such a thing as healthy skepticism. But the Internet is crammed with reckless, counter-factual speculation. It's not healthy, it's often not even literate. And there is very little purpose served by arguing with such loony birds.
38 - zingzing
"I find it funny when people talk about releasing the DNA evidence. Just how exactly do you verify this?"
true. but how do you (as an individual) verify anything these days? nearly everything can be faked.
39 - zingzing
there ain't never no evidence of nothing
40 - pablo
zingzing
My point exactly, so why even discuss it as if there was a viable way to determine the truth in this matter.
41 - pablo
Handguy 27
Your link to the AP story is in direct contradiction to the words of the President. Obama said very clearly that Osama was shot AFTER the firefight, not during it. Which of course also means that he was killed point blank. So either the Prez is lying or the AP is. To me this is not a trifling matter, perhaps to you it is. Before, during, towards the end, and after all have completely different meanings. Obama clearly said AFTER.
42 - handyguy
I actually don't think I've ever seen you post anything on here that isn't trifling. If you really believe OBL has been dead for 10 years, then you already believe both the president and AP are bogus. So why are you trying to balance more angels on the head of your pin? Or on your pinhead?
At any rate, your 'analysis' of the president's words and the [partial, non-definitive, still-a-work-in-progress] AP story is inaccurate in both cases. If you can't even keep track of simple, recent statements, why should anyone pay any attention to anything you write? What a sad, imaginary world you live in, where everything and everybody is out to get you.
43 - zingzing
pablo: "My point exactly, so why even discuss it as if there was a viable way to determine the truth in this matter."
unfortunately, pablo, i'm afraid there is no "viable way to determine the truth" that you would find worthy of such a description.
if not, what would you consider "proof" in this situation?
44 - Heloise
OBL was the last to die, first shot the son, then the wife, wounded, then shot OBL twice in the head. It was a face to face confrontation. He did not DIE in the fire fight. They had to get to him in the big house on the third floor. Do you think OBL opened the freakin door for them? Damn am I the only one with common sense around here?
OBL did not open the door and let them in or run downstairs and join in the firefight. He cowered upstairs and pushed his wife in front. The video showed them both standing up when the end came.
Was this a conspiracy that he was killed the same day of Hitler suicide April 30th?
45 - El Bicho
I accept the story as we have been told it so far. My comment has been that the government and military has lied to the American people before so I understand those who don't trust what they are being told now. If you think that statement is unsupported, handy, you are poorly informed about what has taken place the past decade. Ask the Tillman family
46 - handyguy
The government has lied a number of times and told the truth a number of times, so it's reasonable to ascertain which precedent fits. If your first instinct when a really enormous news story breaks is to say "It's all a made-up lie," might one possibly request that you have some concrete basis for it? Other than, "Well, you know, Bush lied that other time, and so, you know, obviously Obama is lying now."
If that fits your definition of "obvious," maybe you spend too much time on these here interwebs. If you think all our lives consist of Russian dolls containing small lies inside of big lies...then what exactly are you doing about that?
May I suggest psychotherapy?
47 - Jordan Richardson
That's not really fair, handy.
There's a big difference between suggesting that an account is "all a made-up lie" (something EB isn't saying at all) and suggesting that the government has lied before and is therefore clearly capable of deception again.
Perhaps its the Canadian scepticism in me, but I don't trust government at all. My default position is doubt. When/if the evidence bears out the "official account," I'm willing to go there.
48 - El Bicho
May I suggest reading comprehension, Handy? Or maybe ask someone else to explain to you what my comment says.
If someone has lied to you and the only way you think to deal with them is to believe they only tell you the truth, you prove the adage "there's a sucker born every minute".
49 - Glenn Contrarian
Jordan -
Perhaps its the Canadian scepticism in me, but I don't trust government at all. My default position is doubt. When/if the evidence bears out the "official account," I'm willing to go there.
Doubt's fine, but only up to a point - I don't know about Canada, but here, our legal system (as flawed as it certainly is) is built around 'reasonable doubt'.
Were the explanations offered by Obama and the disparate news organizations sufficient to remove all reasonable doubt? To my mind, yes. To El B's and pablo's and John Lake's minds (and perhaps to yours), no.
Why did I feel that the explanations were sufficient? Because they are in accord with my own knowledge and experience. If you've read as much of my writing as you think you have, then you also know that I'm critical of both sides - but I ping on the Right much more because their positions are wrong much more often than are the positions of the Left - witness the wars, Global Warming, 'birthers', and so on. Remember, I was once a Republican and a conservative. If I didn't have a healthy sense of cynicism, I could never have left the Right.
If you and the others want to take the 'default position of doubt', that's your right...but here's the caveat: if you listen too closely to the whispers of doubt, you might not be able to as easily discern the ring of truth.
Doubt, like all else in life, should be imbibed in moderation.
50 - handyguy
Although El B's comment was a jumping-off point, my #46 was aimed at conspiracist loons, not at him [see for example, Kenn Jacobine's ludicrous article elsewhere on Blogcritics, or almost any of Pablo's comments over the last several years]. Should have made that clearer. Sorry.
I myself have had some strong skepticism in this area: the films "The Power of Nightmares" and "Taxi to the Dark Side" radicalized me on the subject of the so-called "war on terror." There is a war in Iraq and a war in Afghanistan, but "war on terror" is just a marketing slogan, used to justify unpalatable government policies.
I believe the importance of Bin Laden and Al Qaeda has been vastly exaggerated. They had one huge 'success' [9/11], unexpected even to them, and have been in decline since. Guantanamo and the Iraq occupation are sorrowful stains on our country's conscience.
But there is a vast difference between expressing skepticism about the way the OBL death story has unfolded, and jumping to a ridiculous conclusion about it -- a full-blown conspiracy scenario, with no evidence other than 'well, obviously, Obama is lying.'
It trivializes/ignores the facts. It's pernicious and reckless. Laughable if the consequences weren't so serious.
51 - pablo
Handguy
If you watched "The Power of Nightmares" as you aay you did, it clearly expresses the opinion that AlCiada was created by the FBI to create a conspiracy case in New York City.
It is neither ambiguous or blurry, the documentary quite clearly states that AlCiada was a creation of the Justice Department. Period.
52 - handyguy
The Power of Nightmares is an intellectual essay about ideas, not a documentary about facts. I have seen it at least 3 times. Many of the provocative ideas in the film are just that -- not intended to prove anything, but to encourage the viewer to expand his thinking, as if to say: "Did you ever try looking at it this way?"
The bit you refer to claims that the name "Al Qaeda" was made up by US prosecutors in a trial, and later adopted by Bin Laden's group. Peter Bergen, among others, has praised the film's intellectual adventurousness while disputing some factual inaccuracies, including the Al Qaeda name story.
The central thesis of the movie is what is important: that politicians make up scary bedtime stories and offer to protect the populace from these bogeymen, thus increasing the politicians' power. The scarier the story, the more power it bestows [Communism in the 1950s-1970s, replaced by jihadism in the 21st century].
The death of Bin Laden is the end of the scary fairy story, not its continuation.
53 - pablo
Peter Bergen, now thats funny Handy. He is the biggest CFR shill our there. Mr. bin laden expert my ass.
54 - Buddy
I'm not really sure about his death, because everyone is saying different things, thereof you never know whom to believe.
55 - handyguy
Since your own expertise consists just about entirely of throwing semi-literate verbal stink bombs, all I can do is yawn and move on.
CFR...UN...black helicopters...the Fed...Skull & Bones...ATF agents...Kenyan-born tyrants...they're all coming to get us. The conspiracists create their own set of dark fairy tales, and, unfortunately, they believe them.
56 - Glenn Contrarian
For those of you who don't think there was sufficient time to perform a DNA test on bin Laden's body, read this article from Discovery.com.
57 - Irene Athena
Was Benazir Bhutto a conspiracy theorist?
58 - Irene Athena
She says in a 2007 video (you know, before she was "offed") that OBL was killed years before that. Maybe she was just a dumb know-nothing broad who got to be the premier of Pakistan because of that pretty face and family connections. Thought she knew so much, but she knew too much.
59 - handyguy
Or maybe she was mistaken about that particular fact. It does happen, even to smart people. It's unfortunate that the interviewer didn't see fit to explore the subject further, so we don't know why she made this claim just once publicly, and why no one else confirmed its validity [or even stepped forward to agree with her].
60 - pablo
Irene
Not only did Benazir Bhutto say that osama bin laden had been killed on Al Jazeera, with David Frost interviewing her, Frost did not even bat an eyelid, or ask her about this stunning statement.
The interview with Bhutto occurred a month or two before her assassination. BBC when it aired the same interview chose to willingly, and knowingly edit out the reference to bin laden. This was done within only a few months after her death.
I being the demanding, unparanoid, outspoken, free person that I am actually wrote to the BBC concerning their un-professionalism regarding Bhutto's statement. I got an email back from BBC saying that they had edited the clip because they did not think that Bhutto meant to say what she did!
Can you imagine that? BBC had the gall to edit out the clear english statement that she said only weeks after her death!
However soon after that, which was several years ago, BBC decided due to the outrage at them, they started using the original un-edited clip, where the former assassinated Prime Minister of Pakistan clearly, and unambiguously says that bin laden had been killed.
Some people will believe ANYTHING, particularly when it is being spoon fed to them from birth. Others, due to circumstance, awareness, compassion, and a healthy dose of all american skepticism can see the BS a mile away.
I, unlike some others on this site, assume, and I do mean ASSUME that when a major news story is afoot, what is being spoon fed as fact, is LIE. I admit this freely.
Others assume that if they read something or watch something being reported by the MSM that it is factual.
I am not sayint that the MSM always lies, I am just saying from my own personal experience it is far better to assume that they are lying, and proceed from there.
Here is a quick take of my views that are quite contrary to those presented by the MSM as truth
Osama........BS
Libya..........BS
Egypt..........BS
Syria...........BS
9/11..........BS
OKC.........BS
MLK..........BS
RFK..........BS
JFK.........BS
WTC/93.......BS
Thus far I am batting 100% on each and every one of these newsworthy political events. The MSM is batting zilch.
In fact every major political newsstory of the day is laced with outright lies and falsehood. Whether it is protecting innocent civilians in Libya, Osama's sudden end, or Egypt in its post revolutionary military junta, its all LIES, LIES, and more LIES.
I do however get some fairly good entertainment value observing those that do suck up the MSM's stream of BS. Perhaps that is petty to some people, but hey I got to get my kicks where I can :)
61 - handyguy
Here’s a long interesting blog post from 3 years ago about the Bhutto video. The author writes quite well and ties herself in knots trying to make sense of the story. [It would require Bin Laden to have been dead since Dec 2001, and there are videos of him in the years since then.]
But if you scroll down to the very end of the post, you find what may be the answer to this oddity: A video blog post by someone else who convincingly makes the case that Ms. Bhutto simply misspoke, saying the wrong name. Even if you want to believe her, you have to admit it’s odd, inexplicable in fact, that she would just casually drop this bombshell into the middle of a sentence and then go on talking about something else.
If she had said, “Among the people who are my enemies are Omar Sheikh, who killed the Easter Bunny,” it wouldn’t have been weirder or easier to explain than what she did say. In other words, yes, she was smart - smart enough to know that claiming Bin Laden had been murdered would be big news - not how she treats it.
62 - handyguy
Pablo, honestly, your own assessment of your batting average is, shall we say, very different from what an honest observer would say about it. Where you see BS, others see at most ambiguity, and in many cases nothing at all. Yet you believe you have definitive proof.
Is this all you do all day? Do you have a job? A life?
63 - pablo
Is what all I do all day Handguy? I rarely even write on this site anymore, and haven't in ages.
I wish I had a job, alas however I scrape by at the nearest offramp with my Vet sign and hand out.
Hmmm, an HONEST observer, I suppose that would be you Handguy..hehehe :)
The last paragraph in comment 60 pretty much about sums it up Handguy. I gets my entertainment where I can.
64 - Jordan Richardson
Why did I feel that the explanations were sufficient? Because they are in accord with my own knowledge and experience.
Your own knowledge and experience don't necessarily reflect the facts in this case. You pack more understanding than I do in matters of this area, but that doesn't mean that you pack more evidence.
In my view, the explanations have changed considerably over the passage of time. As a result, more (or less) clarity is coming to light. The "official account" has evolved somewhat, too, so it's hard for me to place a significant amount of trust in it until it, let's say, "settles." The stream of early reports, out of the White House and out of the "disparate media" outlets, has yet to settle on an account that aligns with consistency.
So given the state of evidence thus far, I'd say that considerable reasonable doubt remains. This does not mean that there's some massive conspiracy or that the Obama administration is deceptive, however. It just means that I'm not sure about what happened yet. It doesn't make me a "deather" or other such thing.
if you listen too closely to the whispers of doubt, you might not be able to as easily discern the ring of truth
It's a cute slogan, Glenn, but I don't agree. Doubt is healthy. It is healthy to question and remain uncertain with respect to that which is not established fact. It is healthy to allow the facts to bear out, to follow the evidence where it leads - even if it leads to a place that is far from comfortable. Doubt is, in my mind, the only reasonable position to take in matters such as these. You suggest that doubt should be used in moderation; I counter that doubt is moderation.
65 - pablo
42 Handguy
The AP story has been confirmed, the fact that you are not aware of this only shows your ignorance. AP distributed a false doctored photo of bin laden to news outlets around the world. Nice try though Handy :)
66 - Clavos
I wish I had a job, alas however I scrape by at the nearest offramp with my Vet sign and hand out.
Pablo
(No criticism/endorsement expressed or implied -- simply a repetition of this tidbit of information)
67 - Christopher Rose
I believe that was actually humour, Clavos, and if not, then disinformation!
:-)
68 - zingzing
like bhutto, pablo said what he said for a reason. unlike bhutto, he actually is in a position to know. we should all take this bit of information as the honest truth, and run with it. pablo is a vet, most recently of the crimean war, fighting for the kingdom of sardinia. he was wounded, but survived with half his brain intact. the ugly half. he roles around in his model year 1844 wheel chair with a sign that reads "black cat, black cat, chaaaaaange for the homeless" on the offramp to atlantic city. sometimes an old lady friend of his (they met during his convalescence in old prussia) will sit on his lap and play a game of patience.
this is the truth. accept no substitutes.
69 - Dr Dreadful
Here's a Science Daily article, published last August on a new method of DNA testing that can yield results in as little as two hours.
(Of course, it goes without saying that the author of the article was notified by the White House that a fake bin Laden takedown would occur the following April, and that fake evidence of the possibility of a fast DNA test would be needed.)
70 - Clavos
(Of course, it goes without saying that the author of the article was notified by the White House that a fake bin Laden takedown would occur the following April, and that fake evidence of the possibility of a fast DNA test would be needed.)
It could be, Doc; could be, with that Obama crew in the WH...
/irony
71 - STM
Has anyone seen that movie "Weekend at Bernie's", where the two dudes cart Bernie's corpse around trying to pretend that he's actually still alive?
I believe this is the real-life version ... the Navy commandos were given Bin Liner's body, which had been stored in a box in the "special" cool-room they have at the Pentagon just for such things.
They just chose the compound in Abbottabad at random, discovering there was a party in full swing as they arrived. The real reason it had no phone or internet was an ongoing billing dispute with Bell.
Bin Liner was flown in, and some punters on the ground report that he waved to them from a chopper although most said his arm apparently looked "a bit stiff", even mechanical.
When they got there, the party was going on so one commando propped him up and walked him around. They even spent a bit of time around the pool. Eventually, they found people gathered in a bedroom, looking a bit guilty and sniffing a lot while speaking at a hundred miles an hour.
One of the partygoers rushed a commando hoping she might be able to score, and in the melee, Bin Liner's body fell against a wall and the commando's gun accidentally went off, hitting the corpse in the head.
It now being useless, they took it back with them. However, realising they'd get in deep sh.t with the CIA guys for ruining a perfectly good preserved corpse, they chucked it out the back door of the chopper over the Arabian Sea.
This is a far more plausible explanation for the entire mission than just about anything I've seen on here.
And they DO have a special "freezing room" at the Pentagon reserved for the corpses of the famous and infamous.
Just like a TV cooking show. "And here's one we prepared earlier".
Check the internet to get even more facts.
72 - WhoWhatWhenWhere
I don't think he's dead it's all a big cover up!