The government of the United States has provided, and will continue to provide, support to any regime that it feels can aid its long-term plans in a particular region. Naturally, this includes regimes with less-than-stellar records in the human rights violations category. Almost always, the justifications for such support speak of "choosing lesser evils over greater ones" or "sacrificing a few to save many [from physical or economic threats]".
I very much enjoyed watching Phil Donahue speak with Bill O'Reilly on The Factor on a related matter. Donahue made an interesting point with regard to our record of supporting nefarious regimes:
"Saddam was a bastard. But he was OUR bastard, just look at the pictures of Rumsfeld shaking his hand."
To his credit, O'Reilly accepted that the invasion of Iraq could very well have been a "tactical mistake". This is a rather nice way of putting it, much as the phrase "collateral damage" is a nice way of describing other similarly unpleasant matters.
It appears that the initial mindset of the administration prior to the invasion was of a somewhat opportunistic nature — i.e., "while we're going after Afghanistan, we might as well take out Hussein."
It appears that the intent was present before the intelligence, and remained even after the intelligence proved erroneous.
So, it hardly seems novel or controversial to say that we went in under false pretenses, and that we shouldn't have gone in at all. It was a mistake.
To whom did Iraq pose a direct and immediate threat? Kuwait? Israel?
Bill O'Reilly seems to firmly believe that before the invasion Iraq was a terrorist-sponsoring nation that posed a direct threat to the people of the United States. This was certainly unequivocally true of Afghanistan; but, was it true of Iraq and if so, where is the evidence? It would appear that the invasion has created a new home for extremist groups and given them a perceived cause under which to fly the recruitment banner.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - JELIEL
Yeah who will clean up the mess?? (puts on thinking cap)... OH OH I KNOW! (Raises hand in class) ME ME ME PICK ME.... Yes the Canadians will probably get that job AGAIN. Just like we are doing right now in Afghanistan.
Goofing off aside...
I saw the clip with O'Reilly and Donahue and well, I was expecting for Phil to crack and start swinging but he stayed civil and demanded civility. O'Reilly went off like a spark in a cloud of methane. What I'm wondering is why do people persist in watching his show?
It's like watching the Dark Side Version of Jon Stewart, but the problem is that Billy is dead serious, he means it. And it's not a news show, it's more springeresque infotainment than anything else and brings nothing constructive to ANY situation. If he weren’t so tall I'd say he's suffering from the Napoleon complex. I just don't get it.
And I don't get why intelligent people agree to be a guest on his show.
2 - The Searcher
I agree you Jeliel. To say that invading Iraq was a mistake isn't denigrating the service of those who have done their duty and obeyed orders. It does denigrate the judgment and motives of the politicians who sent them into harm's way.
"The Factor" is not a news show, it's merely an entertaining forum for him to espouse his own views and demonstrate his colorful personality. He doesn't let people finish their sentences, he interrupts frequently and of course blows up at them.
Last night, he was way off the mark in accusing Donahue of "denigrating the service" of his nephew who is enlisting in the military, but it certainly made for good TV.
3 - Dr. Kurt
Excellent piece of work, Searcher - I couldn't agree more. Did ya'll see the Daily Show episode were Jon Stewart interviewed O'Reilly? Billy came across as much more intelligent & centrist than he ever does on The Factor.
4 - The Searcher
Kurt: No, I wish I could've seen that.
5 - DJRadiohead
Why is anyone still talking to Phil Donahue?
6 - The Searcher
You know, I wondered that myself. In this case, it's because Donahue supported Cindy Sheehan, the activist mother whose son was killed in Iraq, and Donahue was invited to the show primarily to defend his own defense of Sheehan, whom O'Reilly considers a radical.
She might indeed be a radical. I personally don't much care about her other political views, or even if her secret wish is to perform eternal cunnilingus on Hillary Clinton; on the particular issue of the Iraq war, I happen to agree with her.
7 - Dave Nalle
>>I agree with Donahue that we should not have gone in the first place. I agree with O'Reilly that staying to clean up the mess we created is the right thing to do. Does this make me either a left-wing liberal or a hawkish right-winger?<<
I think it makes you sensible. And this is the essence of the problem we're dealing with today. Too many people are willing to throw out the baby with the bathwater, as it were - and sacrifice any hope of a good outcome in Iraq either to get revenge on Bush for his imagined and real transgressions, or just because they hate war. That sort of tunnelvision is not particularly useful in dealing with real world problems, but they're loud and angry and they get a lot of press coverage.
DAve
8 - clarity
yer all STILL missing/bullhonking about the clarity / justice / honesty!
Bush&Co need to be Made Accountable, they need to be FULLY investigated ... [apparently you people here do not know very much {perhaps conveniently} & such ONGOING injustice, Will Cause more UNnecessary strife/murder/etc ...
I cannot quite believe how full of deceit / ignorance so many people are regarding such a Monumental Crime as the Murderous / Attack upon America the Invasion of Irag IS ...
the Only honest remedic procedure to appease the hostilities of this ONgoing Crime, is to bring the Criminal Culprits to Justice!
this is the DUH! obvious behavior/message justice requires in order to support/manifest the Peace/Justice We otherwise Pretend to support ...
and that, the Iraq debacle is Only one small speck fo the Crime that is Bush&Co
StopLying! (I think that might be the first step ,,, of course unless ITs still going to be about Deceit!
simple clarity ... jeesch!
9 - RJ
Yeah, real clear there, "clarity"...
10 - DJRadiohead
There isn't a tax hike large enough to account for what "Clarity" advocates.
If we are going to start fully investigating and holding accountable all lies and liars in Washington D.C. we are going to go broke faster Mike Tyson and MC Hammer combined.
I think the thing sometimes voters get confused about is the difference between holding leaders to a higher standard and holding them to an impossible standard. No one gets to high elected office without distorting facts or crafting specious arguments to persuade voters of the rightness of their position. President Bush did not invent the practice and he is not the only president to committ soldiers to war in light of it. Let us not forget it was Kennedy and then Johnson who sent soldiers to Vietnam.
11 - Dave Nalle
Clarity seems to think that clarity means quoting bumper stickers as a form of communication.
Dave
12 - WTF
Phil Donahue is married to Marlo Thomas, who is the daughter of the late Danny Thomas. Can anyone say Danny Thomas productions? A ground floor enterprise that has grown into a large conglomerate of holdings all within the broadcast media. Hence... the reason anyone is still talking to Phil Donahue. It's not that Phil Donahue is an awe inspiring individual, it's because Phil Donahue is married into the family that owns a large chunk of the industry and therefore calls the shots.
13 - Maurice
I have never seen O'Reily (shot my TV years ago) but I read his first book just because so many people talked about him. It was a slow and painful read. He is very full of himself and his '6 foot 3 inch frame'. When he did talk about a topic besides himself there was nothing imaginative about his analysis. He must have a great presence on TV because his thoughts in print are unimpressive.
O'Reily interviewing Donahue sounds painful.
14 - clarity
dave seems to think he has presented a rebuttal as further cover for murderous criminals
clarity
15 - clarity
ya real clear there, "clarity" ...
jeesch
... what has America become?
neurotic hypocrites? fear? liars? injustice / murderers
criminal mentality
16 - clarity
Prosecute Criminally Insane Neocons Now!
Impeach Bush Now
http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts120.html
17 - clarity
Will Neocon Fanaticism Destroy America?
http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=7330
videocog - The World According To Bush
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1025.htm
18 - DJRadiohead
It's good to see the NeoCons have a monopoly on fanatacism.
19 - clarity
djradiohead feels he has a 'reasonal/practical' methodology for what? more mitigated accountability? that is exactly what must stop! UNaccountability and its rationalizers by definition/position are outside the authority of Accountability / Justice / the rule of law!
We need Government Transparency / Accountability Period! Secrecy / liars / rationalising UNaccountability Have Cost America Way Too Much!
Why do people bend such clarity as the need, the abosulute requirement for Accountability regarding a system of laws/justice/accountability? What the heck do they think they are achieving with more deception, more neurotic hypocrisy?
Why don't they simply take their own medicine/advice, and embrace their UNaccountability to their own message of UNaccountability?
Please see the insanity in ridiculous neurotic hypocritical mentality, and what it is doing to our American system, which requires Accountability!
Built on Accountability!
It is not for sake of Accountability that America is being bankrupt/destroyed, it is for lack of Accountability America is being bankrupt/destroyed!
Notice the criminal insanity that continues to cover for more insane criminal activity / UNaccountability!
Please wake-up out of the lying mendacious sleeping potion that seems to have taken hold of so many 'well-meaning' Americans!
20 - clarity
attack the messenger in lieu of addressing the message
note the Ongoing UNaccountability / UNclarity!
21 - Maurice
Is there a way to turn off commenters?
22 - clarity
Is the Ostrich Strategy an effective approach to more UNaccountability?
Why Certainly! And has Many practitioners in support of the American Calamity, UNaccountability!
Q;o)
23 - clarity
"The biggest con beyond the obvious criminal actions of our non-elected leaders lies in the fantasy of an active democracy and the illusion of a choice between two political parties that purportedly 'oppose' each other; nothing could be further from the truth. What we have is a form of American Kabuki theatre enabled by the MSM with phony 'political formats' using dueling desperadoes from both parties that only serve to distract, deflect, divide and confuse Americans. Americans, thankfully, are starting to see through the hoax and are turning their TVs off and tuning them out and looking to alternative news sources on the Internet..."
The big con: Democrats vs Republicans
The illusion of democracy
By Tibor S. Friedman, Online Journal Contributing Writer
September 15, 2005
Full Article:
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Commentary/091505Friedman/091505friedman.html
24 - clarity
video of Donahue / O'reilly: video
Verbal Donnybrook on the Factor - Donahue KO's O'Reilly
25 - maelstrom
Whether you like Donahue or not, I think the point he made about Sadaam being our bastard was very important. There is an almost complete mainstream media blackout of the context behind the US policy towards Iraq. Just as you never hear about the depleted uranium used in the bombs and bullets (that is causing cancer in Iraqi children and may be responsible for Gulf War Syndrome in veterans of the first Gulf War because it was used then too), you never hear in the main stream media about the fact that we supported Sudaam's Baathist regime in the 80's and through some of his worst attrocities (gassing of the Kurds).
You can love or hate Phil Donahue or Michael Moore, but both have at least contributed some important context to our dilemna in Iraq that our mainstream media refuses to contribue.