Are we on the road to the day when our government will become a tyranny and deserve the fate of all tyrants?
With the election almost upon us and most polls showing Barack Obama with a substantial lead, many people are wondering what the future might look like with the Democratic party in control of the White house and both houses of Congress.…
Article comments
26 - Bennett
"so far gone into partisanship"
Oh, I'm not particularly partisan, Dave. I vote for whomever I think will do the best job for my community, my state, my country, and the world, in general.
You, on the other hand, are rabidly partisan. You're willing to distort damn near every issue, and twist most facts to fit your peculiar world view.
"I'm not going to waste my time on you anymore"
Poor me!
27 - Carlos Arietti
Is incredible the ignorance that this article shows about the situation of my country, Argentina. During all the 90s, we followed the policies ordered by the IMF and the Washington consensus (privatization, free markets, etc.). The result? Our worst economic and social crisis, in 2002. In the article "socialism" is critized. Well, what i see in the USA dominated by an extreme right administration IS socialism, but in the opposite direction: billions and billions of the State given to save bankers, wall street, etc. If someone wants to follow Argentina, i can suggest to begin to respect the international law, suscribe all treaties about human rights and elimination of mass destruction weapons, put domestic criminal wars on trial, etc. Only then, i think that someone can speak about my country.
28 - zingzing
dave: "you're so far gone into partisanship I'm not going to waste my time on you anymore."
dave, you've got to admit you're at least as far right as i am far left. or you're as far whatever-you-want-to-call-yourself as i am far whatever-i-want-to-call-myself.
at least i'm not afraid/too uppity to talk to someone.
29 - Lisa Solod Warren
Clav, have you actually figure out how much Obama will cost you personally in taxes? There's a website for that. Or are you just talking.....
like Dave.
About things of which you, apparently, know little. Like Dave and his fixation on the evilness of South America.
Really, Dave. South America is NOT the Axis of Evil. I promnise you that. Been there, lived there. It isn't. Listen to Carlos. And others.
Stop fear mongering.
30 - moon
[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]
I couldn't force myself to read beyond the first page of his rant--too much foam came out of his mouth when he wrote it and covered the computer screen.
Nalle's [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] complete ignorance of everything to do with Latin America.
Mexico privatized the pension program of non-state workers in the late 90s. Fortunately I was able to liquidate my pension balance at age 60--just before the previous PAN administration decided that the AFORES (private pension funds operated by a fistful of banks here) could be invested in the Mexican stock market.
I probably don't have to tell you the number of billions of dollars that has cost the folks still in the system--sufficient to say that the last quarterly reports were in NEGATIVE NUMBERS.
And the worst is yet to come.
Folks have lost, on an average, 40% of their balances since January.
And THAT is precisely what Argentina's government is trying to avoid having happen.
It was only 7 years ago that the cry in Argentina was QUE SE VAYAN TODOS--because Menem's privatization of EVERYTHING in the country left it bankrupt. Banks had grabbed folks' savings and sent them to the Caymans and accountholders were unable to withdraw THEIR money. This led to a handful of governments being formed and falling in a few weeks.
An excellent documentary on the Argentinian disaster by Fernando (Pino) Solanas came out in the spring of 2005 (Solnas presented it at the Documentary Festival I attended in Quito) and is available on DVD.
Since the Kirschners were elected there has been sustained growth and some measure of stability. Some privatized companies are being returned to state ownership and control. The last thing they want is folks shooting each other outside Casa Rosada because of a Mexican-style pension disaster.
I really feel for the folks here who will be working till they die in the traces because the pols wanted to pay back their corporate supporters by giving them the lensions toplay with in the market!
[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]
31 - bliffle
Dave tries out the ancient McCarthy charge:
"Obama's Marxist background and openly socialist rhetoric..."
Doesn't seem to have the sting it had back in the 50's when the commies were in charge in Russia.
Maybe it's worn out.
32 - moon
The Pino Solanas documentary is called MEMORIA DEL SAQUEO.
33 - Dave Nalle
Dr. D. your #19 conveniently leaves out this part of the conversations:
Obama: "My attitude is that if the economy's good for folks from the bottom up, it's gonna be good for everybody. I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody."
Dave
34 - Brad Schader
I am using the best solution to this mess and I hope everyone else does as well- vote for opposite parties. I never, EVER vote the same party for the White House and Congress; that denies checks and balance. I don't know Obama that well, but what I do know I like. I don't know Palin that well, but what I do know I don't like. McCain and Biden are nonissues in this race and it really is Obama-Palin running. Since I am going to vote for Obama based on that logic, I am going to put the GOP in Congress so as to balance out Obama's possible very left tendencies.
Remember- anyone who puts party over country is a traitor to both.
35 - Dave Nalle
Lisa, where on earth did I say that South America is evil?
I referenced ONE country in this article, Argentina. And I didn't even call it evil, I just suggested that what its president is doing to its people and their pensions is a very bad idea and worse for the US.
South America has many countries, some of them pretty well run - even some of the fairly socialistic ones. Brazil and Chile come to mind as countries which have had histories of earnestly trying to govern well, if not always successfully. Argentina has a history of being governed badly by generally creepy people.
Dave
36 - moon
Right,
Nalle. [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] Chile has the privatized pension system espoused by the Chicago Boys and it is being flushed down the toilet--just like in Mexico.
Which may explain why Bachelet's presidency has not pleased fokls--even though it was Pinochet who proivatized everything (inlcuding the `public funds he privatized to himself and his family).
[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]
37 - Dr Dreadful
Clav,
Obama was not saying to Joe that the wealth should be spread from anybody. He was making a general observation about economics. Do try to be less paranoid.
Dave,
I didn't leave anything out. Read the whole quote again...
Your feeble 'gotcha' attempt, however, deliberately cherry-picks bits of what Obama said, and for obvious reasons. Your spinning-top needs a new string.
38 - Arch Conservative
"Archie, Cannon - get ready to put up with at least 2 more years of this ridiculous, delusional bullshit."
I'm hoping it's less than eight months.
39 - moon
BTW, Doc, It would behoove you to LEARN something about the historyof the hemisphere you are currently living in.
1. Central America--minus Belize and Panama-- was ONE country after Independence from Spain, The Federal Republic of Central America. It did not include Venezuela.
2. You have no idea what the landmass of this hemisphere actually looks like, as the Mercatur Projection distorts the apparent size of the Southern Hemisphere to look much smaller than it is. Brazil and the Congo, for example, are actually the size of continents in their own right.
3. Nalle is not the President of the Planet--and therefore it is not up to him to rename continents at his own convenience.
40 - Dave Nalle
I didn't leave anything out. Read the whole quote again...
Your feeble 'gotcha' attempt, however, deliberately cherry-picks bits of what Obama said, and for obvious reasons. Your spinning-top needs a new string.
I read it again. Your quote does not include the part which I quoted, which is taken from the New York Post's transcription of the discussion.
Since what I quoted is the actual relevant part of the discussion you probably ought to have included it rather than a less relevant part on the basis of which you erroneously dismissed the concerns about Obama's penchant for wealth redistribution.
It's all kind of moot now that all these sorts of other similar quotes have surfaced going back for years, but it was the genesis of the process of looking into Obama's past statements which uncovered all of this unfettered socialist rhetoric.
Dave
41 - moon
Unfettered?????
[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]
I wouldn't vote for either candidate unless I was paid at least a million euros [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor].
42 - Clavos
Clav, have you actually figure out how much Obama will cost you personally in taxes?
No. It doesn't matter. What I'm opposed to is "spreading the wealth around" as a matter of principle, even were I to be on the receiving end.
And yes, bliffle, I KNOW our system of taxation (or any) is a form of "spreading the wealth around," that doesn't make me want to increase the spreading.
Qbama wants to increase taxes on corporations, which will ultimately come out of our pockets, since corporations don't pay taxes, they simply pass them through to the end users, whether in the form of increased prices or reductions in staffing and/or other cutbacks in expenses.
I would like to see government's power over the people reduced, not increased. Most of Obama's proposals will increase its power, and allow it to intrude even further into our lives than it does. Unfortunately, stealing private property seems to be increasingly in vogue in government circles at all levels these days.
And cutting back the government's power is nearly impossible; the bureaucrats expend far more energy protecting their fiefdoms than they do fulfilling their missions.
43 - moon
Nonsense.
If clavos has the level of income that he would have us believe he has, he doesn't pay taxes anyway--or a mere pittance.
The wealthy pay considerably less money than their legal tax share would be to folks who have accounting practices like this poster used to have in the US to make sure that they pay almost nothing in taxes.
44 - Dan(Miller)
Here is a link to a very perceptive and interesting site.
The devil made me post it.
Dan(Miller)
45 - Dr Dreadful
Dave @ #43:
Ah, the New York Post. Owned by - what's his name? - oh, yes, Rupert Murdoch - who also happens to own... I think you see where I'm going here.
No, none of Murdoch's publications would ever distort anything...
Go back up to my comment again. You can skip the couple of bits of lead-in dialog between Obama and Joe. Obama's longer speech is what you're looking for.
Here's the first sentence of your quote from the Post's 'transcription':
"My attitude is that if the economy's good for folks from the bottom up, it's gonna be good for everybody."
Would you care to skip down to line 5...?
Now to the second sentence of your quote:
"I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody."
Read line 9...
The Post's 'transcription' cuts out a whole chunk of the quote and removes it from its context, thereby giving it a completely different meaning than the one you're trying to apply to it.
46 - moon
Dan,
You have too much time on your hands.
I caught a lot of flak when I posted about Aunt Jemima in Ferragamos telling the Katrina victims to eat pancakes....and that was ORIGINAL.
47 - Dr Dreadful
Central America--minus Belize and Panama-- was ONE country after Independence from Spain, The Federal Republic of Central America. It did not include Venezuela.
Thanks for the history lesson, Moon. Wasn't Venezuela originally part of the Viceroyalty of Peru?
You have no idea what the landmass of this hemisphere actually looks like, as the Mercatur Projection distorts the apparent size of the Southern Hemisphere to look much smaller than it is. Brazil and the Congo, for example, are actually the size of continents in their own right.
And the geography lesson. Actually, strictly speaking, Mercator's projection distorts the Northern Hemisphere to appear larger than it is. I do have a globe at home - and a smaller one right here on my desk, actually. From it, I observe that Brazil is larger than the contiguous United States and Australia - whether that qualifies it as continent-sized rather depends on whether you think Australia is a continent. Congo (even combining both countries of that name), while sizeable, is considerably smaller; also, since it straddles the Equator, Mercator distorts it somewhat less.
I can't argue with your third point.
48 - moon
Doc,
1. While it is true that most of South America was under the oversight of Lima, Venezuela was the exception because for most of the colonial period it was overseen by the "Audiencia" of Santo Domingo.
Got you again.
2. Whether something is distorted to look larger versus something else being distorted to look smaller is a relative argument.
Pick somebody else's nits.
And
Don't fuck with The Phantom.
49 - Ruvy
DD,
When Argentina collapsed, it was not the central pillar of the Temple of Mammon. It was just a side pillar and its fall did not damage the Temple. So the Temple priests could rebuild the structure without too much of a sweat.
America is the central pillar of the Temple of Manmmon. And it is facing crises similar to (but not identical to) the crisis facing Argentina several years back. Whe that central pillar goes the god of money goes, too. It is just a golden statue surrounded by silicone....
The cool thing about it all? When the shit does hit the fan, there ain't gonna be no Jesus to save your sorry asses.
And if you think that Obomba is the messiah, you got a pitchfork coming your way too.
In the meantime, I'm waiting for more work - editing the explanations of more company execs trying to cover their asses to the big investors who have lost a fortune....
50 - moon
Ruvy,
I agree with everything except your calling Gringolandia America.
America is used here to refer to North, South and Central as one continent.
Otherwise the statement by Simón Bolívar, "The United States seems destined by Providence to plague America with misery in the name of freedom", doesn't make any sense.
When Simón Bolívar was close to death in Santa Marta, Colombia, he said to his doctor:
"The three greatest fools in history have been Jesus Christ, Don Quixote...and me".
51 - Ruvy
My apologies, Marthe. The habits of a lifetime trip me up. You are right about America - I ought to have said the United States in place of America. Had I been following Jewish prophecy more closely, I would have said Rome. Prophetically speaking, The United States, Canada and Western Europe are considered "Rome" and "Rome" is considered "Edom".
And the god of Mammon that "Rome" worships is cracked and falling....
52 - Heloise
Gibberish eh? MSM likes my gibberish. How's this for ghetto economics: Taxes are socialism. Socialism is the forced redistribution of wealth.
Obama couldn't be a Socialist, communist or Marxist (practice) if he wanted to. That's why Joe asked the wingnut interviewer "Huh? are you kidding, who wrote your questions?"
Yeah Dave ditto to this article: are you fucking kidding?
Gibberish enough fer ya?
Heloise
53 - Heloise
Are you watching Obama's infomercial? It's so professional and well done and not overdone.
WTF the way early voting is going, going, gone...he could have the votes he needs by fucking Friday!!! Would that we could.
Heloise
Eat your heart out Dave!!!
54 - Lisa Solod Warren
Yeh Heloise, it was perfect. I think I'm finally going to get off the fence and vote for him now.
(lame attempt at humor)
55 - Dave Nalle
I was out shopping for halloween costumes. Was his 'infomercial' substantially different from the 24-hour Obama channel on my satellite dish?
Dave
56 - Lisa Solod Warren
You gonna be the Anti-Christ again this year, Dave?
57 - Cindy D
ROFLOL @ Lisa! Hilarious!
58 - Cindy D
Why do Republicans always cry about higher taxes? It's not as if Democrats spend more!
Republicans outspend Democrats by miles! Republicans act like crack addicts with an unlimited John Q. Public credit card.
"I'll take a war, a bridge, and a few incentives for Microsoft, just put it all on the card please."
One simple picture says it all:
Chart - Democrat VS Republican - Deficit
59 - Cindy D
Dave you never responded to those two videos I posted for you showing McCain saying the same things about wealth and paying taxes as Obama says.
Lisa,
For Halloween Dave is going to be wearing the latest in crackpot conspiracy-wear. A fruitcake costume and a tin foil cowboy hat.
Because Dave is going as what he has become. The new improved version of a Ron Paul crackpot...and anti-Obama fruitcake.
Speculation and fearmongering abound. [thanks to people like Dave, who trade in it] Obama's Marxist background and openly socialist rhetoric have raised fears [see what I mean? he couldn't even complete a sentence without doing it] despite the moderate positions and conciliatory statements which have characterized his campaign.
Thanks Dave. LMAO!!!!
Really Dave, are you going as Fruitcakenstein or Count Fruitcakeula?
60 - Dave Nalle
I think that since Obama is now the messiah, going as the Antichrist seems even more appropriate than usual.
Plus this year I plan to carve 666 in my cheek in honor of Ashley Todd.
Dave
61 - pablo
Best idea you have had yet Nalle. Carve it baby.
62 - Cindy D
Dave,
It seems this guy stole your Halloween costume or is that actually you?
Who would have thought they would be able to deflect Obama's Marxist mind rays with a gold-plated tin foil mask?