President Obama stood with the rights of the homosexual American.
This post is inspired by an article someone shared on Facebook linking President Obama to Marxist Communism. The only problem is it is being bred and nurtured by the opposite side of Communism: the extreme Fascist conservative. That seems to be where we are these days, politically. If we are liberal, we are Anti-God Communists. It seems the people lip beating these issues don’t understand the rights of the land in which they live.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Pam Messingham
First of all, you are flat out wrong. He took money from education and from the elderly by taxing the pensions of the elderly and cutting education. I was there when this bill was signed...don't even try to make it what it isn't. He took $1.8 billion from the elderly and education and gave 1.8 billion is tax cuts to the rich. There was no replacing that in our budger. He is also getting ready to sign a bill that will end property taxes to business. That tax cut only hurts the cities and education and city services. That is a direct hit on the cities. Many cities depend on that money for their education base and for their civil servants. To me, he is undermining the cities on their level, at the core, the city collapses financially, and BAM EFM...Total and absolute control...contracts cancelled, police and fire outsourced and the private sector moves in and privatizes everything. NOW THAT is fascism. The rich own all...your vote doesn't mean anything because your city council...the people you voted in, is dismissed and the only power the mayor has is to take minutes at meetings. Robbing people of their vote...UNCONSTITUTIONAL...and my dear...fascist. Do you live in Michigan? If you don't see it...you are one of those people that I put into the "heaven help us" pile of people that help our constitution diminish. Snyder is a perfect example of what I would consider fascist. All about privatization...like hey lets privatize the prisons...now what people don't know is that the prison system makes a ton of money for the state...they just don't talk about the million dollar contracts that the prisoners fill. If the system was such a drag on the economy then Engler (our last governor before grandholm) wouldnt have been so eager to take from education to build many new prisons...some that sat empty...and who would want to buy them if they were not money makers? He is wants to privatize education. Hows that for the rich in high control. How many single mom's can afford to send their children to school if they have to pay for it. Open your eyes Baronious, fascism is a knocking...and when you fuel it with Patriot I and II and now NDAA...with outragous police powers...know that is nothing like Free America!
27 - Baronius
So, fascist really does mean "I don't like it".
How's your soup?
I don't know. It's a little fascist.
Oh, that's too bad.
So, I was going to go for a jog, but the weather turned fascist. Stupid fascist clouds.
Oh the weather outside is fascist,
but the fire is anti-fascist,
and since there's no place to go,
let it snow, let it snow, let it snow.
28 - Pam Messingham
You are being rather immature and childlike. If you don't get it...you are better off. Life is good when you are oblivious. Take good care. It doesn't have a thing to do with like...but never mind.
29 - baritone
You can't argue with Baronius because he believes anything that even hints of conservatism is ordained by god, and anything remotely liberal comes from - well, I don't want to stir up the flames, as it were, but one can certainly imagine where it is I'm going with that one.
The governor and the state legislature have been given absolute power to take over any town or city it chooses. They even have the power to erase the city altogether. People in these towns and cities have no voice - no vote. Mayors and town councils are booted from power. Any decisions made by the managers appointed by the governor cannot be challenged. There is no democracy.
And, paranthetically, it's hardly accidental that most of the communities that have been usurped have large minority populations.
Fascism: any system of extreme right-wing or authoritarian views. As per "Oxford Pocket American Dictionary of Current English."
Is Snyder right-wing? Ummm. Yes, I'd say so. Is he authoritarian? Given what has taken place since his taking office, I'd say most definitely. I guess we could opt to find another term to describe Snyder - say - asshole? Oh, but that would be loutish, and fascists have never taken to loutishness.
30 - Pam Messingham
Touche' Baritone...and Thanks!
31 - Pam Messingham
We all know extreme right is fascist and extreme left is socialist...fyi Obama is neither.
32 - Glenn Contrarian
I disagree that extreme left is socialist. Communist, yes, but not socialist. Why? Because every first-world nation on the planet (with the exception of certain oil-rich nations in the Middle East) is a socialized democracy...and the fact that ONLY socialized democracies comprise the first world should indicate that they're doing something right.
33 - baritone
I would agree with that Glenn. But to most Righties, socialism is only slightly less heinous than communism. It's just a matter of degree. Us Lefties don't consider socialism to be the ultimate evil that Righties do. Neither are we generally the alarmists or paranoids one finds in greater #s on the Right. In that, we can recognize the good that can come out of certain applications of socialism.
Most of us would agree, I think, that communism, as it was realized in the Soviet Union, China and elsewhere has been a monumental failure. The only way China has been able to survive is, IMO, its significant forays into capitalism. I would not claim to be a socialist, but neither am I a capitalist - certainly not in any puritanical sense.
On the other hand, fascism is most often aligned with political and economic conservatism at their extremes. What is happening in Michigan and elsewhere in the country leans far more toward fascism than anything else.
34 - baritone
But, just to agree with Baronius on one point: No, we don't like it.
35 - Pam Messingham
Glenn, that is my mistake. I meant Communist is the radical left...not socialist. I see a split in the neo con mentality. On the candidate side of the political spectrum, these are harsh business men and woman. They are the elite rich. They are the big business we are fighting against that are wanting world domination. They are USING God to manipulate the less intelligent base, the voter, with the moral values of their banter. They laugh behind the backs of their voters. The mentality of the "stop social programs in the name of Jesus" is an oxy moron in itself. They use the name of Jesus, or the belief of Jesus, to get elected and to further their own agenda. They could care less about Jesus or the biblical morals they preach to. It is their "in" to power and control and greed. We see this. Common sense, if we believe or disbelieve in God, should tell us that Jesus didn't hang on the cross so Haliburton would gain even more wealth. He didn't hang, with pierced appendages, so people could starve, go without medical help, or live in poverty. I don't think that was the Jesus agenda. Ask a neo con: "What would Jesus do?" (I am laughing as I write this because neo con/Jesus is as oxy moron as it gets.) The neo con voters are against health care. I wonder if they realize that the U.S is 40th in infant mortality. We have health care that sucks. I'm not talking about insurance, I'm talking about health care, in general. We fall under many third world countries when it comes to the medical care issue. Why? Because we, as a country, have allowed our medical treatment to falter to the benefit of insurance and drug companies...again big business. We, also, are the only 1st world country without a national health care system. They will puff up and tell us all that this is what a democracy is. National health care is socialist. That's insane. Jesus, the one that hung on the cross, would have simply healed the people, right? Or would he have been a neo con and just let them lay and die in a field someplace...you know, while they were starving to death because people were too selfish to share their food...was it more important for Jesus to purchase weapons and to feed big business at the time than it was to take care of the downtrodden and helpless? Oh, lets not forget, he was morally convicting those who didn't fit into his moral way of thinking, wasn't he? The neo con politicans knew exactly what they were doing with the fear factor, 911, didn't they...it drove a lot of people to God, out of fear, and that is where they found the power to use and manipulate that base. Fear is a great motivator, isn't it?
36 - tro ll
Pam and baritone employ a particularly misguided and sterile definition of fascism for this discussion - there's not much one can do about the fact that modern Common American English is an ideologically degraded variant I guess
happily there are plenty of interesting and fertile definitions out there to work with like for example the following from the thoughtful Chuck Anesi:
Fascism is a form of political and social behavior that arises when the middle class, finding its hopes frustrated by economic instability coupled with political polarization and deadlock, abandons traditional ideologies and turns, with the approbation of police and military forces, to a poorly-defined but emotionally appealing soteriology of national unity, immediate and direct resolution of problems, and intolerance for dissent.
the F Scale
37 - Pam Messingham
Sorry, I am not misguided.
38 - baritone
Well, tro, how does that definition not fit what is happening now?
However, when it comes down to it, all this argument about what is or isn't fascism is beside the point. Call it what you will, but the Right has, since at least 2010, embarked upon a mission of disenfranchizing Democratic voters via strict and complicated registration laws, are finding every means possible to break up unions which are the only major source of funding for Democrats, and are doing all possible to move the calendar back 70 years to the "good old days" before the notion of civil rights raised up its ugly head.
39 - Zingzing
Hrm. Troll's definition does make the right wing in the us sound pretty fascist.
40 - t roll
...far from denying the fascist nature of the Republican efforts my point is that to identify fascism with the "extreme right" is to whitewash fascist trends throughout American politics and society
41 - Baronius
I guess that Granholm was more of a fascist then. She forced a black man out of the mayor’s office in Detroit, took over the majority-black city of Pontiac, and pushed for government intervention in the auto industry.
42 - Baronius
Pam - It is childish to sing silly songs, but it's just as childish to use words like "fascism" that you don't understand.
43 - Baronius
And let me go through this one more time. The government of Michigan takes money from businesses and private citizens every year, and gives it to the elderly and children and others. Snyder did that last year, and he's doing it this year. You may not like the amount he took from businesses, or think that he should give more money to education and the elderly, but that doesn't change the fact that he did take money from business and give it to education and the elderly. So your comment #26 is completely backwards.
44 - Baronius
And I just got around to reading your comment #35, Pam. Now it all fits together. You don't like the international financiers who aren't Christian. That's a nice bit of anti-Semitism there. You also want government to have more say over our lives. I understand why you so loudly denounce your opponents as fascists now; you're afraid we'll notice what your real agenda is.
45 - Pam Messingham
Baronius, you aren't even worth the argument. You are flat out wrong on Rick Snyder...but believe yourself if you need to. I am done with this. It's like trying to explain sight to a blind man. I'm done.
46 - Pam Messingham
Wait, Baronius, did you just say "before civil rights raised it's ugly head?" Wow. Not even worth responding to...you have said enough.
47 - Glenn Contrarian
Baronius #44 -
I'm not sure if you realize this, but there's a BIG difference between anti-Christian and anti-Semitism - I'm not sure where you got any anti-Semitism whatsoever in her comment. Furthermore, if you'll look again, what Pam is doing is not against Christians, but is against the hypocrisy of those who are using the Name of Jesus to justify doing things that Jesus would never have approved of.
In other words, you completely misread her comment and castigated her for saying things she never said. I'd say you owe her an apology.
And when it comes to #43, what Pam referred to was Rick Snyder's decrease in funding for education and the elderly. You stated that while it was a decrease, he still 'gave money' to social programs. So that begs the question: at what point should funding for education and the elderly be decreased in your eyes before you think that Rick Snyder was no longer good for the state? At what point should said funding be decreased for the 'benefit' of Big Business before you start thinking that Big Business has too much sway in government?
48 - Glenn Contrarian
Pam -
That was Baritone - not Baronius - who referred to Civil Rights, and if you'll read #38, I think you'll agree with what he said.
And don't feel bad - I've gotten Baritone and Baronius mixed up before, too.
49 - Baronius
First of all, I won't apologize to anyone who calls me a fascist. Secondly, "neo-con" is a code word for Jewish. It becomes clear who Pam's bloodsucking international businessmen are when she laughs at the idea of neo-con Christians.
50 - El Bicho
So you don't like someone else determining you are a fascist but are fine determining someone else is an anti-Semite? What a hypocrite
51 - roger nowosielski
Regardless of the disagreement as to the definition of terms, you have been badgering Pam, Baronius -- simply because you thought you could.
52 - Baronius
No, I'm not a hypocrite, and I'm not badgering Pam. I'm pointing out how stupid this kind of labelling is. Come on, people. The author writes an article about how people shouldn't call Obama a communist and she calls her opponents fascists. I point out how wrong she is and she reiterates her error. Of course I'm going to find every reason to call her a fascist and demonstrate how stupid her argument is. The one thing I can't believe is that everyone else read it and didn't realize what I was doing. How far have the boards degenerated, anyway?
53 - Glenn Contrarian
Baronius -
Secondly, "neo-con" is a code word for Jewish.
That's crap. Why? I looked up 'neoconservatism' on the Wikipedia, and while I found word-for-word the quote you gave above by David Rubin, I also found this:
Neoconservatives respond to charges of merely rationalizing support for Israel by noting that their "position on the Middle East conflict was exactly congruous with the neoconservative position on conflicts everywhere else in the world, including places where neither Jews nor Israeli interests could be found - not to mention the fact that non-Jewish neoconservatives took the same stands on all of the issues as did their Jewish confrères."
Yes, Jews were quite influential in the formation of the neo-con movement, but the movement went quite beyond their influence. Not once - not once - have I ever heard before today "neo-con" conflated with anything resembling "anti-Semite". I've often heard (and pointed out) how the neo-cons seemed to have (in so many words) a fetish for Israel, but the neo-con movement embraces many, many issues that involve Israel not at all.
"Neo-con" refers to "Jews" in much the same way that "Democrat" refers to "NAACP". In other words, it doesn't. Some Jews are influential with the Neo-con movement just as some NAACP members are influential within the Democratic party...but the Jews don't run the Neo-cons, and the NAACP doesn't run the Democratic party.
54 - roger nowosielski
For the life of me, I never used the term as Baronius suggests. Nor have I ever thought that Rumsfeld or Chaney were Jews, the prototypes of "neocons" in my universe of discource.
55 - Dr Dreadful
I've gotten Baritone and Baronius mixed up before, too.
We don't see much of Baritone around here any more, sadly. I sometimes thinks he jumps onto threads where Baronius has commented just to see how much fun he can have.
:-)
56 - Dr Dreadful
troll's "F Scale" is interesting (I turned out to be a "whining liberal"), but since anyone taking the quiz knows that they are being tested for fascistic tendencies, they may moderate their answers to appear less so.
Politics is pretty much a giant Venn diagram. Any two vaguely similar philosophies are going to share some of the same ideals, goals and behaviours. So while it's probably true that Governor Snyder wants to destroy unions, and it's certainly true that historical fascist regimes also destroyed unions, that doesn't in itself make Snyder a fascist, any more than the fact that I like salmon makes me a grizzly bear.
What might be more edifying would be to take some of Snyder's public utterances, then take some of Hitler's, Franco's and Mussolini's public utterances, mix them up and see if people could tell who said what.
57 - roger nowosielski
I'm certain even some of Hitler's utterances would sound innocuous enough if taken out of context.
58 - Baronius
Glenn (and I guess Roger too), I didn't have to look up the connection between the use of the word "neoconservatism" and anti-Semitism. For someone who is so hyper about racism, you're apparently quite blind to the sneering anti-Semitism of the left. A quick Google of "neoconservative Jewish" finds 1.2 million results. I checked the Wikipedia page for neoconservative, and found the word "Jewish" 26 times. Maybe you guys have been ignorant of the left's dog-whistles all this time, but look back on it and you'll remember that Perle, Wolfowitz, and Kristol were labelled as neocons more than Cheney and Rumsfeld.
But, again, I'll remind you that this is exactly the opposite of the main argument I'm making.
59 - Pam Messingham
What Snyder says and what he signs and pushes through is totally different. You would have to see Snyder politics and then you would understand why I say he is a fascist. It isn't so much in his words, but his actions are tell tale.
60 - roger nowosielski
I'm totally ignorant, Barionius, of the so-called "racist" (or anti-Semitic) whistles. In fact, I find the term rather hilarious, and I communicated this to Glenn who was raised in the Delta.
Of course, I wasn't born or raised in the South as he had, so I must plead my ignorance.
61 - roger nowosielski
Shows my naivete, I guess.
62 - Glenn Contrarian
Baronius -
There's racism found in many places, including the left and the right. On the left, you'll find racism between blacks and Jews, or blacks and Hispanics, almost all of which has squat to do with politics. On the right, you'll find racism of whites against almost anyone who isn't white, and it DOES infect their politics. Okay? I'm not blind to racism...but having been racist, I still hear the dog whistles quite clearly...and I'm of the opinion that most of those on the right who claim to not be racist hear the dog whistles just as clearly, but simply choose to ignore their existence and the influence those dog whistles have on the GOP as a whole. Or doesn't the nearly lily-white nature of GOP gatherings mean anything to you?
That said, I have yet to see anti-Semitism truly tolerated on the left - or weren't you paying attention Helen Thomas was fired?
I sugget, Baronius, that you consider whether perhaps the racist dog-whistling you claim is used by the left is actually a projection of the racist dog whistles you certainly DO hear on the right...or haven't you been paying attention to the race-baiting endemic among conservative pundits, as contrasted to the (AFAIK) total dearth of race-baiting among liberal pundits?
Racism IS tolerated by the rank and file on the right, Baronius - but don't make the mistake of assuming it's tolerated by the rank and file on the left, for while there will always be some who are racist, it's simply not tolerated as it is on the right. There is no equivalency between the left and the right when it comes to racism. Back during the years during and immediately following the Civil Rights Act, you'd have been quite correct in your assumptions, but there's a reason why the once-completely-blue South went completely red following the Civil Rights Act. It was called Nixon's "Southern Strategy", and they gladly accepted the racist whites (called "negrophobes") into their ranks. Do you really think that such attitudes among the people go away in a mere generation, or that those attitudes of the Republican base in those states that now comprise the strongest base of the GOP would not infect the GOP as a whole?
Before you preach to me about racism, Baronius, I suggest you do some real research concerning the Civil Rights struggle and Nixon's Southern Strategy and the rise of the white evangelicals within the GOP, and then learn how these led to the almost completely lily-white nature of GOP events. I can promise you that if you're humble enough to learn, to see what really happened, you'll begin to feel as nauseated by the sound of those dog whistles as I am.
63 - Glenn Contrarian
And Baronius -
From the "Southern Strategy" link above:
Bob Herbert, a New York Times columnist, reported a 1981 interview with Lee Atwater, published in Southern Politics in the 1990s by Alexander P. Lamis, in which Lee Atwater discussed politics in the South:
Lee Atwater:
You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger." By 1968 you can't say "nigger" - that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites.
And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me - because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger".
Herbert wrote in the same column, "The truth is that there was very little that was subconscious about the G.O.P.'s relentless appeal to racist whites. Tired of losing elections, it saw an opportunity to renew itself by opening its arms wide to white voters who could never forgive the Democratic Party for its support of civil rights and voting rights for blacks."
====================
I grew up in this atmosphere, Baronius, I lived it - I know all this to be true. And what does this have to do with your accusation of anti-Semitism? Easy. Any group of people that accepts racism will be much more likely to tolerate prejudice against those of other religions or cultures or creeds...and they are miuch more likely to assume that other organizations are just as bad.
Conversely, any group of people that rejects racism against people of color is FAR less likely to tolerate prejudice based on religion or creed.
The proof? How much prejudice have you seen on the right against Muslims? LOTS. On the left? Not much, as Keith Ellison can tell you.
64 - Glenn Contrarian
Baronius -
And here's yet another example of prejudice and racism on the right. Do you really think that such behavior would be tolerated for even a day among liberals? No, I don't think so.
65 - El Bicho
"I'm pointing out how stupid this kind of labelling is."
Right. That's why when Glen told you to apologize you repeated the charge. You might want to rethink your tactics because they are as clear as mud
66 - Baronius
"I sometimes thinks he jumps onto threads where Baronius has commented just to see how much fun he can have".
Dread, I find myself hoping that whole threads like this are practical jokes by particularly cruel friends of mine who know how much flawed reasoning irritates me.
67 - Pam Messingham
I can't help myself. Thanks Glenn, but he can't say a simple sorry because he can't see he is wrong. That's okay...but thank you. As for you, Baronius....you definately have the flawed thinking. Open your mind....
68 - Baronius
Glenn, we've talked about this before. I don't have much hope to gain any ground with you, given that we've had the exact same conversation over and over, but I want to at least demonstrate to the newcomers where you're wrong.
First of all, you give the Southern Strategy too much credit. Some politicos pursued it, I know. But at the same time, the Democrats were getting creamed in California, New England, the West, pretty much everywhere. So it wasn't like the South moved in some unique way. I mean, Nixon and Reagan won New York. Whatever the Republicans were doing was working everywhere.
Secondly, it isn't like every white Southern bigot changed parties. For every Strom Thurmond you can point to, I can point to a Robert Byrd. Why did some stay and some go? I'll get to that in the next two points.
Thirdly - and this is huge, given your military background - you have to recall that at the same time as the Southern Strategy, the Democratic Party shifted towards pacifism. You know how respected the military is in the South. The Democrats may have lost North Carolina on the Marine vote alone. There were two dominant issues in the 1960's, civil rights and Vietnam. Your analysis ignores the impact of the latter.
Fourthly, it isn't like the Democrats really became anti-racists. They changed a little. They adopted a policy of set-asides and pandering - in a word, condescension. The Republican Party has always looked upon blacks as worthy of equality. The Democrats never have.
Finally, there was a generational shift. The 1984 voter wasn't the same person as the 1964 voter. You seem to ignore that too.
69 - Zingzing
Baronius, you're just the other side of the coin to glenn's argument. Just as slanted as ever. That bit about the republican party and equality is laughable...
70 - roger nowosielski
Was thinking the same thing, zing. Where in hell did he get that idea? Must be thinking of Lincoln, I suppose.
71 - zingzing
i bet he likes to think that the playing field is level, and therefore any special consideration given to minorities is "pandering" and "condescension." but of course the playing field isn't level, and only a fool, or the willfully blind, believes that it is. baronius seems to be in that latter camp, as he wants to believe it so much, he'll buy any type of garbage in order to make himself feel better about it.
72 - Glenn Contrarian
Baronius -
Your third point is the only one that holds any water, and your fourth point...
Fourthly, it isn't like the Democrats really became anti-racists. They changed a little. They adopted a policy of set-asides and pandering - in a word, condescension. The Republican Party has always looked upon blacks as worthy of equality. The Democrats never have.
...evinces a wealth of ignorance. The Republicans DID fight for equality for blacks back in the 1800's...but that was back in the day when the Democrats were the conservative party and the Republicans, the liberal party. Ever since the years following the Civil Rights Act, the Republicans have been of the opinion that "okay, you're equal now, so we don't have to do a damned thing for you, never mind the centuries of slavery and decades of Jim Crow you went through." To Republicans, I guess, equality for blacks was just as easy as flipping on a light switch.
Which is why, I guess, the Republicans think it's okay to race-bait all and sundry, and why white supremacists are always on the right and never on the left, and why Ron Paul - who believes the Civil Rights Act should be repealed - is a Republican and not a Democrat.
73 - roger nowosielski
It's uglier than that, zing. According to Baronius, if you're poor, you're undeserving and it's your own damn fault, whether you black or white. He's well to do and, naturally, self-justified in his own eyes.
How does he deal with this ugliness inside? Personal charity speaks to the goodness of his heart.
74 - Igor
Hey Baronius: how many black Americans has the Republican party sent to the House Of Representatives in the past 40 years?
75 - Zingzing
Baronius isn't that bad, Roger. He's not evil, just somewhat delusional.