Will Barack Obama make history by putting a Republican on the ticket?
As Barack Obama nears the finish line in the race for the Democratic nomination, speculation will soon be rampant about Obama's choice for a running mate. A lot of Democrats have opined that having Obama and Hillary running together would be a "dream ticket."…
Article comments
26 - Doug DeLong
Propa,
Yeah, I got it. He lost a couple of elections, so in your eyes he's a loser. A worthless human being apparently. Let's ridicule him and run him out of town on a rail. What a loser.
And yes, we all know that Bush and Cheney are winners. How could anyone possibly have anything negative to say about these two selfless servants of the people. They surely will go down in history as the saviors of mankind. Say Amen.
27 - bliffle
"#26 " Doug DeLong
...
Yeah, I got it. He lost a couple of elections, so in your eyes he's a loser. A worthless human being apparently. Let's ridicule him and run him out of town on a rail. What a loser. "
Not a very nice way to talk about Our Own Dave Nalle.
28 - Dave Nalle
Michael, I think that the history of Obama's association with CPUSA, Frank Davis and the DSA ought to be taken very seriously. There's an article at AIM which is a good place to start.
As for accusations against Obama, the fact that some of them are ridiculous - mostl originating from the Clinton campaign - doesn't mean that we should blow off those which are authentic and serious. He may not be a muslim, but he does have other very unsavory associations.
Dave
29 - Dr Dreadful
Is that the best you can do, Dave?
One of my high school teachers ended up in prison for running a protection racket. Should I have gone down too because I was taught by him?
30 - Anon
Is that the best YOU can do Dreadful? The analogy makes no sense to the issue at hand.
We don't look at the son if the father turns out to be a killer.
But if a person seeks out a mentor, is taken under the mentor's wing and admires the mentor and if that mentor turns out to be a communist/con-man/racketeer or whatever the case may be..then yes the disciple certainly deserves to be looked at.
So Obama being associated with the communist doesn't make him a commie but it certainly is a legitimate reason to take a look in that direction. It might be futile but there is nothing wrong in it.
I bet you'd be the first person to point fingers at any Republican congressmen who ever shook hands with Jack Abramoff even if that congressman never saw or spoke to Abramoff again. Guilt by association is completely legit there.
31 - Dave Nalle
Dr. D., he wasn't Obama's teacher, he was a close family friend and personal mentor. Their relationship was not instructor-student. It was much closer than that.
Now if we called Obama a neocon because he lectured at the university of Chicago, that would be more of the kind of thing you're talking about. After all, the neocons taught at Chicago and so did Obama, ergo he must be a Neocon.
Dave
32 - Michael J. West
Dr. D., he wasn't Obama's teacher, he was a close family friend and personal mentor. Their relationship was not instructor-student. It was much closer than that.
The Guilt By Association fallacy is not made less fallacious by virtue of a closer association.
Saying that someone was "at one time an active communist" (emphasis mine) is an allegation that inherently implies evidence. "Active" suggests that he was a documented member of CPUSA, or that he was a documented participant in activities or events sponsored by that party.
The association with Frank Marshall Davis, regardless of how close, doesn't even amount to circumstantial evidence. Come on, Dave, surely you can muster up a better argument than this.
33 - Dave Nalle
Michael, I can also go at it from the other direction. Read Obama's political writings and his current political positions. He is clearly currently a socialist, and if you read his autobiography it's pretty clear that he's evolved to that position from one which would be considered pretty much communist.
As for being a card-carrying CPUSA member, did I ever say that Obama was criminally stupid? That would be like volunteering to have the mark of cain on your forehead.
Dave
34 - Dr Dreadful
Dave:
So basically, the only actual 'evidence' you can offer us to back up your claim that Obama was once a communist is that you say he was?
Michael is right. By casting aspersions based solely on his erstwhile association with a prominent communist, you've arbitrarily removed from Obama the ability to think for himself and to develop politically.
As for him being a socialist - come on. You've lived in Europe. You should know better than most of your compatriots that what Americans think of as 'socialist' barely even qualifies as radical in the rest of the world.
35 - Dr Dreadful
I bet you'd be the first person to point fingers at any Republican congressmen who ever shook hands with Jack Abramoff even if that congressman never saw or spoke to Abramoff again.
Keep your money in your pocket, Anon.
36 - Bennett
"Read Obama's political writings and his current political positions. He is clearly currently a socialist, and if you read his autobiography it's pretty clear that he's evolved to that position from one which would be considered pretty much communist."
Wow Dave, a new low! Your "current" argument is "clearly pretty much"... horseshit.
You must have had serious back room training at a corporate ad agency.
"Tell a lie convincingly, and then tell it again and again until the stupid people believe you and start repeating it back to you."
It's still a big load of crap.
37 - Doug DeLong
Dave,
When I referenced "underground right-wing sewers," Accuracy in Media is exactly what I was talking about. They are a right-wing smear machine who love to accuse people of being communists and whose founder, Reed Irvine, once famously demanded that Walter Cronkite be fired for being a "communist dupe." From their Wikipedia page...
"Critics say AIM's attacks on the media seem to have little to do with actual misrepresentation or inaccuracies in media accounts. They assert that Irvine and AIM is quick to attack groups that do not fit in the group's ideological niche. Donald Graham, the publisher of The Washington Post, alleges that Irvine tends to "throw around accusations about people being communists. AIM has also been vigorously defensive of former Senator Joseph McCarthy, referring to his critics as "liars" and "communists," and defending his legacy, claiming that he never once fingered an innocent person in his accusations during the red scare he helped to fan."
Frank Davis was a respected writer, poet, journalist and labor activist who got caught up in the communist witchhunts of the '50s when anyone who was left of center was accused by McCarthy and his ilk of being a communist. I thought we had progressed farther than that as a country. I guess it's making a comeback, though.
Come on, Dave. You accuse Obama of being a communist and then as use this kind of garbage as evidence. You're a smart guy. Raise your game.
38 - Dave Nalle
So basically, the only actual 'evidence' you can offer us to back up your claim that Obama was once a communist is that you say he was?
Hell, Truman destroyed people for far less.
Michael is right. By casting aspersions based solely on his erstwhile association with a prominent communist, you've arbitrarily removed from Obama the ability to think for himself and to develop politically.
'Erstwhile' hardly describes the relationship, which appears to have been profound and deeply influential. But I did say that Obama has evolved away from that early influence, rather clearly. I'm damned sure I never said anything remotely like that Obama currently advocates anything like communism.
As for him being a socialist - come on. You've lived in Europe. You should know better than most of your compatriots that what Americans think of as 'socialist' barely even qualifies as radical in the rest of the world.
Obama isn't running for president of the rest of the world, and I don't see any reason why we should tolerate an incremental slide into the hell they are living in.
Dave
39 - Dr Dreadful
Hell, Truman destroyed people for far less.
I'm no fan of Truman either, Dave. Your point?
'Erstwhile' hardly describes the relationship
From the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:
"erstwhile
[...]
: in the past : formerly"
Pretty straightforward.
Obama isn't running for president of the rest of the world, and I don't see any reason why we should tolerate an incremental slide into the hell they are living in.
I'm not going to rise to this as I'm pretty sure you enjoy making those sorts of remarks just to see who you can upset.
40 - Bennett
"I'm damned sure I never said anything remotely like that Obama currently advocates anything like communism."
But your primary goal of making the association between Obama and Communism was achieved...
Cheap shot.
41 - Michael J. West
Michael, I can also go at it from the other direction. Read Obama's political writings and his current political positions. He is clearly currently a socialist, and if you read his autobiography it's pretty clear that he's evolved to that position from one which would be considered pretty much communist.
That's a far, far cry from "he was at one time an active Communist," Dave. You're backpedaling - and backpedaling hard.
As for being a card-carrying CPUSA member, did I ever say that Obama was criminally stupid?
No, you said that Obama was "an active communist." If he wasn't a member of the communist party, how was he an active communist?
At this point, you're dismantling your own argument.
42 - Lee Richards
"I have here in my hand a list..." -McCarthy
"...it's pretty clear that he's evolved to that position from one which would be considered pretty much communist." -Nalle