To paraphrase Roger Williams, forced patriotism stinks in my nostrils.
I find it hard to believe that this is even an issue in a national election in a country with so many real problems and issues to debate and resolve. But it seems the punditocracy is all a twitter over Barack Obama's decision not to wear an American flag lapel pin, which apparently signifies much more than a break from political sartorial conformity. If you believe them, it's a rejection of the flag, the principles it stands for, and everything that's good and American in the world. Apparently it means he no longer likes baseball, mom, and apple pie too.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Lumpy
REMF's behavior is rather like those who demand the display of a meaningless flag on the lapel. utterly worthless mccarthyesque bigotry.
27 - Cannonshop
Dave Nalle, you hit it right on the head. Trinkets like that reek of hypocrisy when the environment is a domestic (read: U.S.) election and the subject is a candidate for office.
28 - Staci Schoff
Dave, There is at least a dime's worth of difference between Clinton and Obama. The difference is that Clinton has wider appeal outside of the devoted Democrats voting in the primaries. Obama doesn't have a prayer of being the next president -- Clinton has a prayer, however weak.
29 - Arch Conservative
Staci....you are entirely too reaonable, objective and level headed for someone who claims to be an Obama supporter.
Cut that out.
If I see reasonable people supporting Obama it will start to worry me. Not that I myself am not reasonable where Obama is concerned. I have examined his voting record in congress and found nothing I could in good conscience support.
It's like my good friend Zell Miller once said......."campaign promises tell you who the candidate wants you to think they are, voting records tell you who the candidate really is"
I like my Obamabots kuuuuuuurrrrrazzzzzeeeee
Would it kill you to throw in a "change we can beleive in" or "yes wecan" now and then in your postss staci?
30 - Dave Nalle
Staci, I know a lot of Republicans who might vote for Obama and very few who would vote for Hillary, except as they did when they crossed over to try to throw the primaries off.
Dave
31 - REMF
"What the fuck does that have to do with anything?
Obama didn't serve either [personal attack deleted]."
- Arch/Bing
The difference being, of course, that Obama has always opposed the invasion and occupation of Iraq; while you are a bellicose "supporter" of the war...as long as someone else does the fighting and dying.
32 - REMF
"REMF's behavior is rather like those who demand the display of a meaningless flag on the lapel. utterly worthless mccarthyesque bigotry."
Might wanna check the mirror there, war-wimp.
Perhaps the chickenhawks (Cheney, Limbaugh, Hannity, Gingrich, et al) should wear "WORDS SPEAK LOUDER THAN ACTION" pins...
33 - troll
actually Obama totally lost me when his campaign went with 'si se puede' - reminiscent of goni's slick sloganeering...and remember how well that worked out for Bolivia
I have a feeling that if one looked closely enough he'd find the same PRmen in charge of The Packaging...
34 - Dr Dreadful
Actually, I was ashamed that those people draped themselves in our flag and went hunting people they thought were "un-Australian".
I do know the incident you're referring to, Stan. We walked along the cliffs from Coogee to Maroubra the day before the trouble started. Our mates who we were staying with had told us about the territorial surfers at Maroubra, but there was hardly anyone about, either on the beach or off it, when we got there. It just seemed like a ho-hum, sleepy seaside suburb. Who'd have known what was about to happen?
I know exactly where you're coming from. It's the extreme right's appropriation of and ostentatious use of the flag (not just the Union Jack; the St George's Cross as well) that has given it such negative connotations in modern Britain. Really upsets and embarrasses me when it's used to promote values that are the utter antithesis of everything that's right and good about the country.
35 - Arch Conservative
"The difference being, of course, that Obama has always opposed the invasion and occupation of Iraq; while you are a bellicose "supporter" of the war...as long as someone else does the fighting and dying."
Oh so you're saying that if someone supports something they must do it all the way right? Gee by that logic I guess liberals liek you that support government enitlement/welfare programs which are funded by taxes dollars should give 100% of their income to the federal government. Have you and your good lib buddies been doing that REMF?
36 - Arch Conservative
"Staci, I know a lot of Republicans who might vote for Obama and very few who would vote for Hillary, except as they did when they crossed over to try to throw the primaries off."
Well Dave I don't know a single one who would vote for Obama in Nov but I do know quite a few that are willing to kiss and make nice with Mccain by Nov and vote for him if he says and does the right things between now and then.
The fact is that Obama and his supporters have developed an artificially inflated ego and sense of impending success during the Democratic primaries. The GE will be quite different...quite a rude awakening for the moronic minions I'm sure.
It's like a JV quarterback who's been kicking ass in all of the JV games. He's got all of the freshman girls thinking he's god and he's got somewhat of an egotistical attitude problem. He's just been told that he's goig to be starting a varsity game. Little does he know what's in store for him. It sure as hell aint the kid glove treatment and thoughtless adulation he's used to.
37 - Dr Dreadful
Well Dave I don't know a single one who would vote for Obama in Nov but I do know quite a few that are willing to kiss and make nice with Mccain by Nov and vote for him if he says and does the right things between now and then.
Arch, if in real life you're anything like the way you are on BC, I'm not surprised. Anyone in your circle who is unwise enough to divulge their intention to vote Democrat at the GE is probably subjected to an eloquent barrage of yelling and contempt and driven off - unless they admit that they might be persuaded to vote the same way as you.
38 - Arch Conservative
In real life most if not all of the people I know close enough to discuss politics are Republicans. There's no persuading necessary and like I said...they all think Obama is the devil-man.
I don't know what Republicans Dave's been talking to but the Republicans up here where I am, NH, tend to be more moderate than where he is down there in TX. Does anyone seriously think Obama has a shot in hell of winning Texas in the GE? Mccain has a much better shot of winning CA than Obama does of winning Texas. We all know it.
39 - pleasexcusetheinterruption
Does anyone seriously think Obama has a shot in hell of winning Texas in the GE? Mccain has a much better shot of winning CA than Obama does of winning Texas. We all know it.
Does anyone else seriously think this means anything besides the fact that you have the analytical skills of a three year old?
40 - Arch Conservative
"Does anyone else seriously think this means anything besides the fact that you have the analytical skills of a three year old?"
That's certainly a profound rebuttal. Why don't you explain to us how Obama can win Texas. Better yet why don't give give us a quick outline of how and why Odbama will win the different states necessary for him to win it all in Nov.
41 - zingzing
some aussie, probably STM: "Sadly, some people like to wear the flag badge all year round to mark therm out as "patriots" who care about "Australian values" - whatever they are these days."
far as i'm concerned, that would be a sale on nick cave and the bad seeds.
as for the rest, i'd say obama loves this country as much as anyone, but probably in a more critical, eyes-open way. same way i love this country. it can be a shit, it's overwhelmingly stupid at times, there's a funny odor coming off it and the people are by and large tubby. but whatever, it's mine and it's cute in its own little way. for all its problems, it's still better than most any other place.
wearing a lapel pin simply means you've got something on your chest, nothing more. i'd wear two: one over each nipple.
42 - Andy Marsh
Dave - I agree that Obama not wearing a flag on his lapel is no reason not to vote for him...I mean, there are so many other reasons not to, that's not even in the top ten...but along the same lines...you stating that you think LESS of a person that does wear one is just as wrong.
I wear one, occasionally, I only wear a suit coat occasionally, but I have a flag tattooed on my chest, so even shirtless, I wear a flag on my chest! I guess it kinda fits...I know you don't think very highly of me anyway!
43 - silver surfer
zing: "far as i'm concerned, that would be a sale on nick cave and the bad seeds."
Lol. Nice one zing.
My least favourite aussie rock star, but I'll give you he's creative.
44 - zingzing
least favorite? gawd. name me another that's any good. (i'll give you the go-betweens, but as i've said before, australians have NO BUSINESS making music.) :)
45 - The Obnoxious American
Arch hit it right on the head. The lapel pin is just the tip of the iceberg for Obama. His wife's comments. His pastor's comments. His voting record. His own speeches, where when he talks about this country, it's always a negative comment about how the people of this country have been victimized. And of course, Obama is the only person that can rescue us from the current (evil) state of things. Not!
I agree that the wearing of a lapel pin is hardly an indication of anything, not least of which might be actual patriotism. But Obama is no patriot, his brand of orthodox liberalism belies an actual hatred for America as it is, hence "change we can believe in" (but should be scared of).
46 - silver surfer
Doc, it wasn't the 'Bra Boys (the Maroubra surf gang). It was a whole bunch of blokes from Cronulla and some ring-ins who stirred up some trouble after the boys had been on the VB all afternoon.
The Maroubra boys wouldn't do something like that. They are a different ball game.
They claim they're not even a gang, but the standard tattoos are "My Brother's Keeper" and the NSW postcode "2035", for Maroubra Beach. There's been links to organised crime, bashings, stabbings, a well-known murder trial - and mostly NOT involving innocent people.
One night they just happened to be having a party at Bronte on a different floor but at the same venue as the local police, and when the trouble started it was a wild melee, with helicopters, fleets of paddy wagons and a lot of police injured and a lot of 'Bra boys arrested.
One of the leaders of the group, Koby Abberton, who looks nothing like a gang member to me but is is a really tough bugger, is the only non-Hawaiian ever known to physically stand up to Jonny Boy Gomez, the legendary Hawaiian enforcer bully of Pipeline, and remain in one piece. They had a punch up in the shithouse at Pipe and both somehow walked out alive, so the story goes. I'm assured by a couple of 'Bra boys that it's not apocryphal, and I've heard from other surfers too. You'd have loved to have been a fly on the wall.
They are a rough crowd, but not stupid enough to just go around belting crowds of people on prime time TV.
Sadly, I drove down to Cronulla last weekend for the first time in years, and we saw heaps of Aussie flags flying, and hanging from windows, etc.
Unfortunately, it doesn't always just mean patriotism in Cronulla these days. It can also means we don't like outsiders that much, so if you don't look and act like us, too bad and bugger off.
47 - silver surfer
zing: "least favorite? gawd. name me another that's any good. (i'll give you the go-betweens, but as i've said before, australians have NO BUSINESS making music.) :)"
Lol. That's OK zing, I find white American bands some of the most boring, repetitive musicians on the planet, and don't get me started on that other American export, rap music - crap without the C. Give me a good Pommy band anytime. That's where the soul of rock 'n' roll moved to.
White American musicians never quite got up to the bar set by the New York Dolls, although I do love Lou Reed. Don't mind Willy DeVille either.
You don't know any other Aussie bands zing, that's yer problem mate. Get with the program man ...
I met Lindy, the drummer from the Go-Betweens, quite a few times in the late 80s-early 90s, as she was a friend of a girl I used to hang out with. I haven't seen her in years, but she's good value. I love the song Cattle and Cane, but the rest of their stuff I'm not sure about.
I have couple of favourite local bands though. We'll discuss it in a music thread some time :)
48 - zingzing
oh, i know plenty of aussie bands. problem is, they aren't all that good. gimme birthday party or gimme death. well, not death. they aren't all that good either. whatever.
as for "white american" bands... there's a few too many to say they're all repetitive (try the fiery furnace's "blueberry boat" for detrimentally non-repetitive music) and boring (try... oh, i won't even bother...)
meh. all i got to say is this: blues, jazz, country, r&b, rock, funk, punk, rap, techno... every major musical style of the last century, and guess where it comes from: not australia. bam.
and that bar was set by the stooges, not the new york dolls. (although the dolls were very good indeed.)
i'm sure there are many, many australian bands that don't make it over here, but there's really no excuse what with the internet and file sharing, etc. i thought i would really like architecture in helsinki, but i was mistaken.
hrm. i did forget about hunters and collectors. and aren't avalanches australian? sigh...
49 - Clavos
Jeez, zing,
Most of your #48 was even more incomprehensible to me than Chinese, but then, I'm a geezer.
Still, I DID find a few words I recognize and love in there:
(in no particular order) jazz (NOT "smooth"), blues, rock (selectively), country, r&b...
50 - silver surfer
zing, you're a prize dickhead :)
We'll do an Aussie rock restropsective right here on this thread if you like.
Given some of the second-rate bands you've named there, no wonder you don't like aussie music.
You don't know shit from clay, that's the problem.
Oh, yes H&C aren't a bad band. Try Ghost Nation - great album.
Out of that era, The Saints, The Church, Sunnyboys, and for a bit of very clever light relief not far removed from Led Zeppelin and The Cult if you listen closely, try The Hoodoo Gurus, and then in the recent era, Regurgitator and The Vines - just for starters :)
We can get into a serious music discussion though anytime you like.
I still reckon white american bands lost the plot 30 years ago and never found it, no matter where all those sounds originated.
Using your "origins" logic, how do you explain the excellence of British rock music compared to American?
There's some great music out of America, but with a few notable exceptions, it doesn't include too many white American bands/artists.
51 - Clavos
SS sez:
I still reckon white american bands lost the plot 30 years ago
That's exactly what I meant by "selectively" regarding rock in my comment #49.
Most but not all, of the rock I like dates back to 30 or more years ago.
52 - STM
Likewise Clav.
On rock only: I have an ipod filled with American bands from about 30 years back, a bit from in between like Mink deville and Lou Reed, and most of it from that point on that I like seems to be British or Australian, which I'll give zing does sound a bit raw sometimes when you hear the early stuff. I was never a fan if INXS, but I heard them before they were famous and some of their early stuff was great, and I liked the rawness of their pub-style music (which is where most of the live bands played here in the 70s, 80s and early 90s).
I mean, I still like the Doors too, Ramones, some of Tom Petty's music (especially with the Wilburys) and Stevie Ray Vaughn, and the album he did with his brother before he died is great, but a lot of the recent stuff coming out of the states (with exceptions) and labelled as "rock" is crappy.
American blues/blues crossover, though ... that's a different ballgame completely. That is a true American sound, as was the oriiginal rock sound - which is probably why the old stuff is so good.
Buddy Holly rocked.
BTW, I find it REALLY worrying that I'm starting to sound like zing.
Perhaps I should drop all pretence, along with all capital letters.
53 - REMF
"...but I have a flag tattooed on my chest, so even shirtless, I wear a flag on my chest...!"
- Andy Marsh
Now if seeing that (not the flag...the floppy chest) doesn't make a guy wanna poke his eyes out with a fork afterwards, I don't know what would...
54 - Clavos
Sorry about all the repeat posts.
Don't know what happened, but to stop it, I had to close this tab and reopen the thread in a new tab.
Should be OK now...
55 - STM
Mate, these things happen occasionally to senior citizens :)
56 - Clavos
Mate, these things happen occasionally to senior citizens :)
You should know, mate. :>)
57 - STM
zing's obviously out listening to (non-Australian) music.
Here's a couple of others you should check out beyond those I've listed above, zing (well, you did ask me on a number of occasions so here it is), from the 80s-era.
Ed Kuepper's The Aints; Eurogliders; Do-re-mi, with Deborah Conway (fave album, Domestic Harmony), and not an Aussie band but Straightjacket Fits, from our New Zealand neighbours (album: Hail).
More recently, can't miss the Screaming Jets; and plain old Jet. All good.
The Birthday Party?? Zing, fair dinkum, is that and the Go-Betweens the best you can do?
Hunters and Collectors go OK, but like I say, you don't know sh.t from clay.
58 - Dr Dreadful
The Cruel Sea
Wolfmother
The Presets
Fair dinkum...
59 - STM
At least you know sh.t from clay Doc.
60 - Clavos
I'm listening to my iPod, on "shuffle," and was just reminded of a genre not yet mentioned that's a particular fave of mine:
61 - zingzing
ai yai. the birthday party was great! raw, emotional, experimental, and best of all, loud!
the saints/aints/ed kuepper... okay stuff, although each went downhill mighty fast.
if you wanna say "jet," i say get your ass out of your ears. feh! that's some horrible, horrible junk.
and don't even mention new zealand, which is an incredibly creative little musical nation, in the same breath with australia! new zealand has more great labels (full of great artists) than australia does bands!
truthfully, the bands you guys have been mentioning are all pretty much middle-of-the-road, "rawk"-lite. stevie ray vaughan? that's not blues, that's guitar wankery. the vines? radio-friendly slop. hoodoo gurus? no no no. there's nothing there that is original or remotely dangerous.
show me an australian band that is pushing the boundaries of any type of music. really, i want to know.
someone asked about the american/english thing. true, the english do make a lot out of various musics that had their start in america. but i'm not trying to say that american music is the best (the jury's out on that one), i'm just trying to say that australian music, by and large, is pretty awful.
i'm just disappointed, i suppose. even canada has come out with some incredible music in recent years. look at the stuff coming out of finland (not the metal, but the experimental stuff). the south american club scene. japan's noise and metal stuff. new zealand's noise and pop scene. african guitar pop.
but australia? crappy pub/garage rock seems to be their forte.
62 - zingzing
ahh, clavos, you are right. i forgot about reggae. and i do love reggae. truthfully, some of the best reggae came out of england (although even those bands did have jamaican riddim sections...)
on-u sound! mixing up jamaican riddim and uk post-punk guitar/vocals in incredibly soupy dub productions...
63 - silver surfer
zing, please tell me what white american bands are pushing the boundaries of anything except the damage to my earholes and my sensibilities.
from where I am, I'm only hearing shit from your end, and I want clay ... :)
64 - silver surfer
also, I'm starting to think you don't know that much about music. anyhow, whatever lt is you've been smoking, where can I get some???
65 - silver surfer
zing: "but australia? crappy pub/garage rock seems to be their forte"
lol. possibly ... but if it's true, at least we're having fun listening to it in the pub whilst getting on the soup.
not standing around with our hands on our tonks listening to wankers ... "oh, it's so experimental. what a genius! don't worry about having fun though. that's not what music's for.
"look, everyone's got a long face. it must be good! we're all so cool, even though we haven't got a fucking clue about anything."
Come on zing, give me clay ... :)
66 - zingzing
oh jesus, surfer, get off your high horse. i know plenty on music. if you want to just sit there are spout of shit about people not knowing anything about music, don't address it to me. that's the shittiest, most juvenile crap you could pull.
that said, if american experimentation offends your sensibilities, maybe it's because your sensibilities are a bit out of date.
here's a list of stuff then: animal collective, microphones, scott walker, hold steady, liars, califone, wolf eyes, lightning bolt, the books, akron/family, xiu xiu, songs: ohia, william basinski... blah, blah, blah.
really, if you haven't heard great american rock in the last few years, you just aren't listening. so much has happened in the last 30 years. the american underground of the 80s was one of the most incredibly fertile "scenes" since rock's initial burst. this decade alone, almost every week it seems, some american band busts open whole new vistas on rock, but you wouldn't know, as you're listening to tom petty and the doors.
i, on the other hand, am seriously asking for some good australian music. something that moves in a way we haven't heard 100 times before. something with a new perspective (and not just an australian perspective...) something that doesn't just ape what americans and the english did 20 years ago (and better).
67 - Christopher Rose
The old man just finds it difficult to admit not everything in the land of Aus is brilliant...
68 - zingzing
"lol. possibly ... but if it's true, at least we're having fun listening to it in the pub whilst getting on the soup."
that's fine and all, but it's nothing original. hold steady, mentioned above in my list, is a bar band extraordinaire, up there with bruce and the replacements in the sloppy/sublime. but they combine that with some seriously thoughtful lyrics and a literary grasp of storytelling.
experimentation does not have to equal dour, expressionless music.
animal collective have a supreme sense of whimsy, and an almost child-like fascination with exploring new boundaries within a pop context. their enthusiasm is infectious.
xiu xiu push beauty and ugly into a corner and beat emotions out of it. sometimes, the emotion is so strong, it gets difficult to bear. if "naked honesty" means anything, it's xiu xiu in their lyrics. their music, however, is all rough contours put in the smoothest of pop placements.
the microphones veer all over the place, from heavy rock to the lightest folk, white noise to pristine pop. and they do this all within the same song at times. live, it's usually short, didactic, strangely innocent acoustic musings, while on disc, they show themselves to be masters of recorded sound and songwriting.
lightning bolt record all of their stuff live anyway, but seeing them live is certainly an experience. no one gets to stand around at their shows. they take place in the middle of the floor with the audience surrounding them--they being just a bass and drums. if you can stand throughout the whole show without being trampled, consider yourself a lucky man. no boredom here, and surprisingly sweet melodies develop out of the maelstrom.
69 - Zedd
Dave,
I would then ask, why do you revere Ronald Regan? He was a living, breathing, lapel pin.
70 - Zedd
Arch,
Bless you. Are you aware that the Republicans want Hillary to win the Dem nomination? Do you know why?
Bless your heart.
71 - El Bicho
"The old man just finds it difficult to admit not everything in the land of Aus is brilliant..."
Two words: Paul Hogan
72 - Dr Dreadful
Only know Hogan from the Croc Dundee movies, don't you, El B?
Poor fellow. How you've missed out...
73 - El Bicho
No, I've seen his show before. I'll give you amusing, but if you think those clips are brilliant, you obviously don't use the same definition of the word as we do in America.
74 - Dr Dreadful
Well, he's not Charlie Chaplin, I grant you, but those clips show that he's not the antithesis of brilliant either, as your invocation of him seemed to imply.
And, coming from a country which produced Kenny G, you're a fine one to talk about brilliance, musical or otherwise...
75 - silver surfer
Rose writes: "The old man just finds it difficult to admit not everything in the land of Aus is brilliant..."
Actually, that's not true. The worst home-grown TV and some dreadful movies, actors trained in the wooden-Indian school of drama, etc.
But of course, it's "art".
And I don't know that just much about music :)
I'm just geeing zing up because he sounds like a wanker when he carries on about this stuff, especially Nick Cave- like most music writers :)
Music writers can just sit there and write dribble about something that's totally subjective, and people either a) don't understand a word of it, or b) don't understand a word of it and go, "hey man, that's cool".