Barack Obama gave a stirring speech in Berlin today, what did he accomplish?
There is much tongue clucking amongst the mainstream media gurus in the aftermath of Barack Obama’s speech in Berlin. Was it hubris? Arrogance? Too much from a United States senator, who is a presidential candidate, but not yet (or perhaps never) President of the United States? I say no. …
Article comments
— go to most recent comments76 - Baronius
Oh, Baritone, no politician has delivered anything close to the St. Crispen's Day speech in a long time. Some video game company used the speech recently in an ad, and I was actually misting up while watching it. An ad.
We've had a lot of politicians lately who can't string two words together. Some I've agreed with; some I've opposed. But let's stop pretending that Obama is anything close to eloquent. He's not as bad as McCain, but he's no Lincoln. He's barely a Dukakis.
77 - Baritone
Doc,
Was JOM masquerading as "Why Me?" Da nerve!
78 - zingzing
baronius: "don't try to defend the rhetoric of that "bullet holes" sentence. First, there's the painful metaphor that bullet holes insist something. Then there's the matter of what they are insisting: that we remember our common humanity. In what way do bullet holes remind us that we're commonly human? That humans don't like to be shot at, or what?"
you must willfully be trying not to understand. it's painfully obvious to the rest of us. why do we remember history, baronius? right, right. now why do we choose to remember the nasty things we do to each other? yes, and those bullet holes were made by the action of some human being, shooting at another human being, maybe even through another human being. why do we do this stuff to each other? have we learned any better? surely, we must have.
"I'm not critiquing Obama's policies, but his awful presentation. Doesn't anyone else notice it? His words are awkward, his delivery is bad, and everyone talks about how articulate he is."
i thought you read it. he's a pretty smooth talker, from what i've seen. and his rhetorical presentation is anything but awkward. it plays with all the tricks of speech making. he's not making the greatest speeches in the world, ever, but those times are gone in political america.
bush won based on his down-hominess. one of obama's biggest problems with middle america is that he seems elite, above it all. which he might be. his speeches feature repetition and alliteration and slogans because that's something people can latch onto as his speech moves through different points.
if you were to look at it, you'd find that the average word count for presidential campaign speeches has dropped dramatically in the last 100 years. you'd also find that sentences are shorter. these speeches have been dumbed down, even since the 70s.
obama is walking a fine line in his speeches. obviously the man is smart enough that he could put your head on a rhetorical rollercoaster if he wanted to; instead, he opts for the rhetorical cocoon, lulling the listener.
79 - zingzing
and doc, that is mr. shane. he did spend part of his childhood in ireland, and probably left many teeth there. but the teeth you see in the photo, well, he grew those fuckers in merry ol' crumpet-stuffing england.
80 - zingzing
and i love it that jom can't stay away. he's pining for us all.
why'd he finally get banned? surely, he couldn't have gotten worse...
81 - Baronius
Zing - First of all, I think that Dread read an earlier comment of mine as a criticism of you. It wasn't.
I did read the speech. In general, I prefer to read Obama's speeches because I find his delivery so bothersome. By reading political speeches, I eliminate the middleman, and learn what the speechwriter and policy people think is important.
Bullet holes remind us. They remind us of a lot of things: of the dangers of totalitarian governments, of the consequences of our political choices, of how fragile peace can be, of the courage of the people of Berlin against half a century of oppression. They don't remind me of something as banal as our common humanity. If you look at the Brandenburg Gate and think that all humans are human, well, you're a bit dim.
82 - Dr Dreadful
Grew them?? They're not growing, they're retreating.
And yes, he did get worse. Without going into too much detail, the particular catalyst incident was a run-in with another commenter, who complained to the site owners. They decided they'd had enough of JOM's particular brand of bullshit and instructed us to give him the boot.
83 - Dr Dreadful
I think that Dread read an earlier comment of mine as a criticism of you.
I didn't, Baronius. Just having a little fun!
84 - troll
In general, I prefer to read Obama's speeches because I find his delivery so bothersome. By reading political speeches, I eliminate the middleman, and learn what the speechwriter and policy people think is important
here here...bravo...genteel applause
85 - Clavos
"The only thing that comes close to representing race is when he says that he knows he doesn't look like the other Americans who have previously spoken there. That is simply a true statement."
Only partially. Both Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice have presented speeches in Germany.
I agree that he was playing the race card (as an asset which plays well to you guilt-ridden liberals), and rarely misses an opportunity to do so.
In his place, I would do the same; probably to a greater degree, because the desire to advance "diversity" by electing a black or female is strong among the liberal segment of the electorate.
86 - Baritone
I am one of those "guilt ridden liberals."
I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.I'm sorry.
No, really. I'm really sorry. Really, really sorry.
B-tone
87 - Dr Dreadful
Clav, I think that was one too many pulls of the old guilt-ridden liberal card...
88 - Clavos
What was your first clue, Doc?
89 - Dr Dreadful
Hard to put my finger on it, Clav... Some subtle underlying nuance in B-Tone's comment...
90 - Baritone
I was trying to be subtle, just hoping that someone would catch my drift.
B
91 - Baronius
Baritone, now that you've lost your white guilt, can we finally talk about Obama's lousy speeches?
92 - bliffle
"The Osama Obama European tour... " is Archies own version of "... Meaningless symbolism and empty rhetoric."
93 - Baritone
Sorry Bar, I just don't agree with you. You indicated that you only read the speech to remove "the middleman." A speech is meant to be heard. A good speech is in part written for its auditory effect. The script of a play is only the words, not the complete work. It can only be appreciated fully in performance. The same can be said of a speech. Oratory is an art. Obama is skilled in that art.
In this particular instance Obama's use of metaphors may or may not have been inspired, but they were, IMO by and large effective in conveying not only meaning, but emotion as well.
Do you really think our "common humanity" is banal? I'd say it's all we've got.
Obama has adopted some of the manner and flow of a gospel preacher, but without most of the bombast. I find nothing bothersome about his delivery at all. He has a good sense of pace and drama. That did not work so well in the Berlin speech owing to the relatively tepid response from an audience that for the most part did not understand English. Perhaps Obama will learn how to better invoke responses from foreign audiences with time. Perhaps some variant on "Ich bin ein Berliner" might have gotten a rise out of the German speaking crowd - especially since, as we now know, Kennedy was saying that he was a donut.
B-tone
94 - Cindy D
RE #32
Obnoxious,
Fact is affirmative action set race relations back...
Please enlighten me, oh obnoxious one. How did affirmative action set race relations back?
...and wasn't only not necessary...
Really? Please explain how you could possible arrive at this conclusion.
...but damaging, even today, and pedantic.
Tell me what you know about equality today Obnoxious. How did the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow laws affect black people? What, for example, is the difference between black wealth and white wealth today? How many blacks are on the boards of directors of USA companies? By what percentage will having a black sounding name hurt you on your resume when your qualifications are equal to a white person's. (study 2003). How many jobs are actually advertised and how many are obtained by knowing who's who at the local (white) country club?
The 2003 University of Michigan Supreme Court case is a good case in point. It demonstrates how institutionalized racial inequality works and what we actually pay attention to. The point scale at Michigan had 150 possible points. How many points were you given to get into the university of Michigan for being black, Hispanic, or American Indian? (answer: 20)
Now we all KNOW that this is wrong and unfair. It's what led to the court case. The press and even Bush discussed how unfair this was. Keep in mind, ALL the points I am discussing had nothing to do with merit. Now, let's look at some of the other points you could get--ones no one seemed to think were unfair, and warranted NO discussion.
Well, you could get 16 points for being from the upper peninsula of Michigan (guess what color most people there are); attending a top high school got you 10 points (guess again at who is going to live in neighborhoods with top high schools); 8 points for taking advance placement classes (which are three times more likely to be available at schools serving whites than those that serve blacks); 4 points if your daddy when to Michigan (Whose your daddy? Likely some white guy, if he went to Michigan.).
Jennifer Gratz brought the lawsuit because 85 minority students who were less qualified than her got in and she didn't. (Eighty-five minority students.) No one discusses the 1400 white students that got in despite being less qualified than Jennifer Gratz. (Fourteen Hundred white students.)
Oh and Obnoxious, how did this happen?: "White students who failed to make the grade on all counts were nearly twice as prevalent on such campuses [the top 146] as black and Hispanic students who received an admissions break based on their ethnicity or race."
You would think that with all that unfair affirmative action tipping the scales in favor of minorities and all the racial equality that everyone claims is obvious, this could not possibly be correct. But, it is correct.
It's kind of repelling for a white woman to be suggesting that African Americans need the white establishment to tilt the scales in order to help out the black man.
Oh but Obnoxious, I the scales have already been tilted. And they remain tilted. White men have enjoyed affirmative action for a few hundred years. It's not like it started in the 60s. That was only when affirmative action included more than white men.
By the way, it is refreshing to know I repel people who mouth sounds that they borrowed rather than did any thinking themselves, because they don't have enough empathy to even look at another's point of view, let alone use any facts in their argument.
Here is a history quiz on affirmative action. Can you name any one of the things that happened in the entire history of the US that gave white people any of the many advantages that they enjoy yet, they did not earn?
"...affirmative action for rich white people is never a problem for the folks like our opponents....It is whites who have been held to lower standards....It is whites and only whites... who could get Cs all through school, brag about their mediocrity publicly, mangle the English language, and go on to become president of the United States." (Tim Wise)
References: Tim Wise speech, 2003 panel debate on ending affirmative action, Intelligence Squared.
Affirmative Action for Rich, White Kids?
95 - Baritone
Cindy,
Good job!
Pretty much all the people who argue with affirmative action are middle to upper middle class whites who generally have no notion of how or why affirmative action was established in the first place, or what barriers African Americans and other minorities have faced throughout this country's history and face yet today.
You made excellent points regarding the Michigan system and how it awards points most of which likely benefit whites over blacks. Is that fair? I'd say not.
B-tone
96 - Dr Dreadful
Tim Wise has a good point. GWB got to the White House by talking and acting like a Texan (which he isn't, BTW).
How d'you think Obama would have got on if he sounded like Ludacris?
97 - Baritone
I watched Mr. Wise's presentation, and he does indeed make good sense and a solid case for the continuation of affirmative action.
I do wish they would have let him finish his Reagan quote. Anyone know what that quote was?
Maybe something along the lines of "Mr. Gorbachev, in the Evil Empire, catsup is a vegetable."
Does that sound about right?
B-tone
98 - Cindy D
ROFLOL!
99 - Cindy D
I love you Dr.D for pointing that out.
Disclaimer: Dear Dr. D's wife, Americans can sometimes um, say things that might mean different things depending on who they are saying them to. My husband, being an American understands doublespeak, so there's no need to explain it to him. And in true American form my disclaimer is at least 10 x as long as the body of writing which apparently needs disclaiming
100 - Clavos
Cindy,
Doc's wife IS an American, I think, although she may be a Californian.
101 - Cobra
Cindy,
Bravo! Standing ovation. I suspect that many Americans suffer from the same ideology as Obnoxious, because America's history on race and gender doesn't get taught in school, and anti-minority propaganda is constantly spewed out on Hate Radio and Fox News.
You don't believe Hate Radio and Fox News influences people?
"One of the most striking poll findings is the number of people who continue to think Saddam Hussein was behind the Sept. 11 attacks. Depending on how it is asked, more than a third of Americans say Saddam Hussein was personally involved in those attacks. In a New York Times/CBS News Poll in September, 33 percent of the respondents said Saddam Hussein was "personally" involved. In June, when Princeton Survey Research, polling for Newsweek, asked if "Saddam Hussein's regime was directly involved in planning, financing or carrying out the terrorist attacks," 41 percent said yes."
New York Times
By JANET ELDER
Published: October 17, 2007
--Cobra
102 - Cindy D
Clav,
Let's HOPE she is a Californian and not just an American. This would change my whole perception of Dr.D, knowing he had access to the whole of Europe AND California (and Hawaii I might add), but perhaps could only attract a wife from say, well, wherever Obnoxious lives.
Although that could be a great wife, come to think of it, someone who is dying to get away from, well, people who believe obnoxious things.
103 - Cindy D
Dear Cobra,
I have to say that ALL the accolades must go to Tim Wise. Because, although I still research for myself every comment he makes; every comment he makes turns out to be factual. He still stuns me with some of the work he does. I almost cannot believe it sometimes. That is until I check his accuracy.
As far as HISTORY goes--you know, what we are taught at school--I have given up on that a long time ago. In fact, I decided not to be a history teacher because I figured I would be fired instantly from any job I could get. No one knows what actual history is. And since that is the case, you would have to convince a whole bunch of people you aren't making this stuff up!
104 - Cindy D
By, "No one knows what actual history is." I mean that, not many people, including school principals and other teachers (even history teachers) know what actual history is.
105 - Dan
One way to assess which race is getting the most undeserved preference at Michigan U. is to look at graduation rates. Blacks fail to graduate at three times the white rate. Does Tim Wise address this disparity?
106 - Baritone
History is whatever people want it to be in many cases.
A great book I listened to, "Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong" by James W. Loewen recounts the significant problems encountered by teachers in the teaching of history. Sometimes the problem IS the teacher. But more often than not it has to do with the books and the curriculum adopted by the school systems.
A significant # of textbook publishers are in Texas - yeah, Texas. The publishers pretty much follow the edicts of the Texas school systems. What they publish for Texas schools, they publish for all the schools they serve. So, by and large, the right wing fundies who run a # of Texas school boards get to determine just what history is and is not taught in our schools. It really blows.
B-tone
107 - Cindy D
Dan,
Please provide a reference.
Thanks,
Cindy
108 - Cindy D
B,
It all starts with the Pilgrims and the Indians dancing in a circle hand in hand enjoying Thanksgiving dinner.
All of the little kindergarten students can have a choice of dressing up as an Indian, a Pilgrim or an ear of corn.
LOL!
109 - Dan
Cindy, certainly. and you're welcome.
source
"The black graduation rate at the University of Michigan is only 60 percent. This is 27 percentage points lower than the rate for white students. In addition, the black graduation rate has dropped five percentage points over the past seven years."
110 - Baritone
Cindy,
I believe I opted for the corn. It presented motivational challenges that I hadn't yet encountered in my then 2nd grade thespian experience. I was a "post shucking" ear as I recall. A few years later, I believe I got to be the turkey. I know I appeared in a # of plays later in life that were said to have been turkeys.
B-tone
111 - Baritone
Oh, by the way, it proved to be really difficult to get to just the right inflection with my, uh, gobble.
B
112 - Ruvy
Ruvy--what can I say except that you are wrong. (So, nu? What else is new?) McCain's team has its Arabists, too. McCain's advisors on the middle east include
Yes, Malley is an advisor, but so are Dennis Ross and Daniel Kurtzer. Brent Scowcroft is among McCain's advisors (yeah, he's really sooo very pro-Israel.)
I see Barbara, that you have never read my take on Barry Obama at all. Let's help you out a bit....
You'll need to go the actual article for the links....
Barry Obama has a record and it speaks for itself. Let's have a look at some of Obama's real life foreign policy experience. it might provide a foretaste of an Obama presidency.
Pam Geller of Atlas Shrugs, posted this at her site at the beginning of this year. Let's look at some highlights.
The Evangelical Alliance of Kenya has posted on its website a photograph copy of a Memorandum of Understanding, dated and signed on August 29, 2007, between Raila Odinga and Shiekh Abdullah Abdi, chairman of the National Muslim Leaders Forum of Kenya.
It pledges the support of Kenyan Moslems for Raila's election. In return, as President of Kenya, Raila agrees to 14 actions, listed a) through n) on page two. Read them all, and be sure you're sitting down. Here's a sample:
b) Within 6 months re-write the Constitution of Kenya to recognize Sharia as the only true law sanctioned by the Holy Quran for Muslim declared regions.
c) With immediate effect dismiss the Commissioner of Police who has allowed himself to be used by heathens and Zionists to oppress the Kenyan Muslim community.
g) Within one year facilitate the establishment of a Sharia court in every Kenyan divisional headquarters. [Note: everywhere in Kenya, not just in "Muslim declared regions."]
Raila Odinga has, in his own words, a "close personal friendship" with Barrack Hussein Obama Junior.
When Obama went to Kenya in August of 2006, he was hosted by Raila and spoke in praise of him at rallies in Nairobi: Obama's bias for his fellow Luo was so blatant that a Kenya government spokesman denounced Obama during his visit as Raila's "stooge."
Barry Obama, referred to here as Barrack Hussein Obama Junior, was at home with Zionist (almost every member of AIPAC sees himself as a Zionist) friends - after facilitating this agreement? Who does he think he is fooling?
Now let's go back to that Democracy Now's video explaining Walt and Mearsheimer's piece on the Jewish lobby. Michael Massing, from the New York Review of Books, explains, among other things, that they are realists coming out of the Brzezinski school of foreign policy. Guess who is one of Barry Obama's foreign policy advisors? Zbigniew Brzezinski!
Let's also look at who likes Obama - or who did until a couple of days ago. "Hamas Un-'Endorses' Obama" says this ABC news blog. This means that Hamas did like him. They had endorsed him.
For the moment, Obama will have to endure the "alcohol slap" that everyone endures when appearing to befriend Israel and Jews. That's just life, and with time, Obama will "clarify" point after point of this speech to AIPAC until they have all disappeared into smoke and mirrors.
This is the point where you are supposed to read that you should vote for John McCain because he does love the Jews for real, right? Well, guess what, folks? McCain has Jim (fu-k the Jews) Baker whispering sweet somethings into his ear about this neck of the woods, particularly Israel. So McCain is no better than Obama.
Try reading the rest of the article for clarification.
I don't need to name names, Baritone. But I know who my enemies are and when i see names like Dennis Ross and Kurtzer, I know the prick hanging out with them is bad news.
And Obama is bad news. But for me, he is better news than McCain. For a Jew in North America, the opposite may well be true.
113 - Ruvy
Oh yes, Barbara....
Notice what continent Obama stays away from. All these trips to Europe and west Asia are being done to cover his filthy footprints in Kenya, where he actually showed what he does.
What he does is favor his native tribe, and favor his family. So, in an Obama presidency, if you extrapolate that just a bit, you can see what kinds of scandals will wrack his administration, and get a good idea of where a lot of them will originate. Being that he is a Chicago politician, this should not surprise....
An intelligent Chicago (or Milwaukee) reporter will be interviewing his former colleagues in community organizing, I'd think, and keeping a close eye on their actions from now on....
114 - troll
Dan - One way to assess which race is getting the most undeserved preference at Michigan U. is to look at graduation rates.
too many factors influence graduation rates for this 'deservedness' to be a clean metric
115 - Barbara Barnett
Re: Baritone #106--not only history, but science as well. This has been an issue vis a vis intelligent design/creationism and Texas text books.
116 - Tim Wise
In reference to the question re: whether I address black/white graduation rate disparities (because this, ostensibly is a good way to determine who is being preferentially admitted to certain colleges), in fact I do, in my book Affirmative Action: Racial Preference in Black and White, in great detail. Graduation rate gaps actually say nothing about "preferential admissions" because even when you compare only those students with identical high test scores, black graduation rates are lower, far lower. The reasons instead, are twofold: financial stresses, which lead blacks to have to leave college more often than whites, and experiences with racial isolation and hostility on campus, all of which are documented by numerous sources, which I reference in the footnotes. Those who are interested in the facts will read the book...those who aren't will continue to believe what they want to believe.
117 - Cindy D
B,
For shame! "...a "post shucking" ear..."
Obviously you did not go to a Christian school. They would never let an ear of corn run around without its husk on.
118 - Cindy D
What a wonderful thing the internet is. Tim Wise answered Dan's question himself @ #116. Wow! Thank you Mr. Wise!
I was still researching it and will put what I came up with here anyway.
It's Racism Stupid! by Tim Wise
More unequal than others in the US by Dalton Conley (whom Tim Wise cites in the first article)
119 - Baritone
Ah, Mr. Wise,
Great to have you join in here. If you revisit us, could you enlighten us as to what particular Reagan quote with which you intended to close your presentation at the Affirmative Action debate?
Did it involve jelly beans, perhaps?
As to appearing on stage as a "naked" ear of corn, well, I went to a public school in which the devil ran rampant. We had no shame.
Actually, I'm rather an old fart. I went to grade school in the 50s in Indy. About the only "christian" schools in existence here at that time were the catholic schools. For a few years we did trundle across the street to a Presbyterian Church once a week or so for some good olde tyme protestant bible study - the Constitution be damned!
But, otherwise, we went along day to godless day, even learning things like science!
Barbara,
Of course, you are correct regarding the teaching of Science - especially evolution and anything that counters the fundies' belief that the world is only around 6000 years old like geology, archaeology, astronomy, etc.
B-tone
120 - Dave Nalle
I also think that after the convention, with the debates and the heavy hitting ads, etc., Obama will become more well known.
How on earth could Obama become MORE well known? The media gives him wall to wall coverage 24/7.
As for his speech, I think he ought to run for president of Europe. They seem to like him and his progressive/socialist ideology fits in better there.
Dave
121 - Baritone
Whereas here in the good ole US of A we prefer a more stodgy/regressive ideology.
B
122 - Dave Nalle
Some would call it a more fundamentally valid ideology based on individual rights rather than collective rights.
Dave
123 - Baritone
Some would. Some would not. Are we "collectively" doing so much better here than those in western Europe? Overall, I don't think so.
B
124 - Dave Nalle
Yes, we are, Baritone. Especially if you count in some quality of life issues.
Just on a relatively objective comparison like standard of living our mean is far higher than the mean even for just the western part of Europe, though a couple of their nations do score higher.
And regardless, how much are things like the right to be face your accuser or to not be held without bond or to be considered innocent until proven guilty worth? How much is it worth to be tried by a jury of your peers or to be able to own land outright and pass it on to your children and on to their children? Most in Europe don't have these rights, and the rest are imperiled by the growing EU government and its laws.
If I faced even the possibility of trial infront of a tribunal of appointed judges in aother country for crimes like picking protected species of wildflowers, I think I'd be ready for armed revolution. And yes, this is possible under the EU's new Environmental Crimes law.
Dave
125 - Dan
It is indeed a notable event that someone as prominent in race relations literature as author and speaker Tim Wise would do a pop-in here at BC.
And in response to my comment no less!
Unfortunately I can't immediately agree with some of Mr. Wise's conclusions.
The assertion that "Graduation rate gaps actually say nothing about "preferential admissions" because even when you compare only those students with identical high test scores, black graduation rates are lower, far lower", seems to directly contradict some data that show when test scores are comprable, the rates of graduation are as well.
In top tier schools where gifted blacks rely less on preference, dropout rates merged. The more common big name universities where racial preference plays a bigger role is where the rates diverge.
"it is clear that racial differences in SAT scores, for example, are much smaller at Harvard (95 points) than at Duke (184 points) or Rice (271 points)."
In fact, there almost seems to be a linear correlation between test scores and dropout rates, in that dropout rates between races are negligable when test scores are negligable.
"Compare racial preferences in Colorado, for example. At the flagship University of Colorado at Boulder, test score differences between black and white students have been more than 200 points -- and only 39 percent of the black students graduated, compared to 72 percent of white students. Meanwhile, at the University of Colorado at Denver, where the SAT score difference was a negligible 30 points, there was also a negligible difference in graduation rates -- 50 percent for blacks and 48 percent for whites."
Whatever the curve, the explaination for disparity in Mr. Wise's view is a combination of "financial stresses...and experiences with racial isolation and hostility on campus"
Although the incidence of these conditions seem plausable, and the occasional occurence, perhaps assured, any data that would account for the magnitude of the disparity would need to be viewed critically.
It's not extraordinarily uncommon for a plucky college student to push on to their degree on Pell grants and guaranteed student loans nearly exclusively.
And if the University environment, that seems to always be locked down in a perpetual tidalwave of multi-cultural celebration, is a source of "hostility on campus" for significant numbers of blacks, then we're lost.
Fortunately, in this regretably orthodox society there is a model with richly populated data to compare affirmative action with meritocracy.
"When racial preferences were ended in California, there was much hysteria in the media, with dire predictions that blacks would be kept out of higher education. Just recently, with much less publicity, the fact has come out that there are now more black students in the University of California system than there were when racial preferences and quotas were in effect. The same is true in the University of Texas system.
What has happened is that black students have redistributed themselves within both these state university systems. There are no longer as many blacks attending the respective flagship universities in these systems, but they are attending other institutions whose normal standards they meet, instead of being overmatched and flunking out of more prestigious institutions."
So that doesn't sound like an unhappy ending to a tragic (for some) societal mistake.
source
Dan