Barack Obama gave a stirring speech in Berlin today, what did he accomplish?
There is much tongue clucking amongst the mainstream media gurus in the aftermath of Barack Obama’s speech in Berlin. Was it hubris? Arrogance? Too much from a United States senator, who is a presidential candidate, but not yet (or perhaps never) President of the United States? I say no. …
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— go to most recent comments26 - bliffle
If Obama is elected then we will see if peoples dreams and hopes can make him the president they hoped he would be.
27 - Baritone
No "smug elitist liberals" believe that Europeans should pick our president. It is however, the smug elitist conservatives who tend to believe that Americans, simply by virtue of the accident of birth, are inherently superior to everybody else.
Germans are, in fact, an extremely intelligent and informed people - probably more so than the average American.
Again, Americans should get over themselves. We are not god's or anyone else's gift to the world. It is the U.S. which has fucked up royally over the past 6 or 7 years, and then just to reinforce our stupidity, we thumb our noses at the rest of the world and, in effect, tell them to "eat cake."
Tell me. What the fuck is an "elitist" anyhow? Do you consider most Democrats to be elitists? What is elitist about being a poor single mother in the ghetto?
Obama is accused of elitism simply because he attended Ivy League colleges. By that standard both Bushes fulfill the definition. Maybe Junior gets a pass because he was only a "C" student, and, therefore, didn't get much of that "east coast elitism" rubbed into his skin. Conservatives give extra "good old boy" points for ignorance.
B-tone
28 - The Obnoxious American
When Obama speaks, looking at one side, saying a sentence, then looking at the other side and saying a sentence, do people watching on TV perceive this as him speaking to the crowd? Realize, each time he looks from side to side, he is going from one teleprompter to the other. He rarely if ever looks straight ahead at the actual audience, although if you didn't know about teleprompters, from the camera angle you'd think he was giving good eye contact.
I think, sadly, the spectacle will excite many, such as Barbara, into thinking that the election of Obama will mean world peace and general unity among our allies. And maybe it will (although technically speaking, we actually do already have good relations with our allies now, including Germany).
The real question isn't whether Obama can titilate crowds with his fanciful speeches here and abroad. It's how he will deal with the situations where we need Germany to side with us on something that they don't agree with. Being president isn't about being popular (except perhaps during the election). It's about being able to make hard choices, and to be able to get your allies to go along with you even if they don't agree.
Barack's recent foray into conservativeship not withstanding, his views are in line with the liberal eurocentric view on many foreign policy issues, so perhaps he won't be is such a position. But then one must wonder whether the liberal eurocentric view is the right policy for the United States. I don't think it is in many cases.
29 - Baritone
Cindy,
I thought since most of the Obama bashers have elected to take liberties with his name, ie: Osama Obama, Barry Obama, or emphasizing his middle name ala Barack Hussein Obama, etc., that turn about was fair play. To refer to McCain as John "Wayne Gacy" makes no less sense than the Obama name twisters. And the righties always complain about cheap shots. Hell, most of the right wing radio buttheads have made millions from cheap shots for years. Hey, maybe now I can cash in.
B-tone
30 - Clavos
"Germans are, in fact, an extremely intelligent and informed people..."
...If somewhat linear and rigid in their thinking, and with an undue respect for authority...
Disclosure: My wife's entire family on her mother's side are Germans living and working in Germany; I have met most of them, and known some (including my Mother-in-law) for about forty years, over a series of extended visits there during those years.
31 - Barbara Barnett
Clavos #17: I agree with you that its a bit unnerving. We should never allow ourselves to lose that important grain of mistrust and skepticism as well. But I think it's been such a dry, dry desert, people are just simply excited.
Andy #19--Loved that. Thanks for sharing that bit of Brit (satiric) take on Obama.
Clavos also said: "What the fuck is George Bush, if not a puppet of the neocons? What "sustainable change" did Georgie accomplish prior to his presidential candidacy? What did he do to "earn" his place in world politics? Oh, that's right, his daddy was president. Enough said.
What "sustainable change" has John (Wayne Gacy) McCain made during his 20 plus years in public life? Where does John (Wilkes Booth) McCain stand as the presumptive leader of the Republican party? What is his message?
Everyone jumps on Obama for changing his positions yet give good ole "Port-O-Potty John" a pass on all of his shifts to accommodate both the ultra-conservatives and moderates within the party and independents without.
McCain was obviously a good soldier who suffered mightily for his country. But does that earn him a pass now that he is entering his demented years? The man is so out of touch with the world, at times he makes GW look fairly intelligent. Well, that might be a stretch, but still."
All I can say is thanks for that hitting the nail on the head, Clavos.
B-tone--You are so right. There is nothing inherently "better" in our being Americans other than our supposed values (and I mean those stated in the Constitution). The attitude of the Bush Administration has done damage to our soul as the United State both at home and abroad.
McCain won't fix that. And if "elitist" means someone who looks beyond the white picket fence and out into the world, then so be it. The Republicans, who represent the true elitists, the fraction of one percent of the greatest wealth in this country are the ones we should really be afraid of. Want four/eight more years of this? Fine. Vote for McCain. And what has he done?
WhyMe--I'm not sure what happened to your posts. Anyone?????
32 - The Obnoxious American
Cindy,
Fact is affirmative action set race relations back, and wasn't only not necessary, but damaging, even today, and pedantic. It's kind of repelling for a white woman to be suggesting that African Americans need the white establishment to tilt the scales in order to help out the black man.
It should be illegal to discriminate, and any form of workplace discrimination should be prosecuted, perhaps with jail time but definitely with high fines and penalties. But once those laws and enforcements are in place to ensure equal opportunities for all, that's where it should end.
Business is about one thing, being competitive. People should be hired by what their company defines as meritous behavior, and nothing else.
Moreover, opportunities such as in education, should be afforded to those who work for them regardless of race.
Merit based is really the only way. Why would you suggest that people of different skin colors cannot compete on an equal playing ground purely in terms of merit?
33 - Barbara Barnett
"It's how he will deal with the situations where we need Germany to side with us on something that they don't agree with. Being president isn't about being popular (except perhaps during the election). It's about being able to make hard choices, and to be able to get your allies to go along with you even if they don't agree."
OA--Persuasion and strongarming are two different things. The problem with the present administration is the attitude of "fer us or agin' us." This attitude has been applied to domestically as well as internationally. The fact that Obama is reasonable and open as opposed to arrogant and oppositional might go a long way to forge alliances even when they do not completely agree with us. The default response to Bush has been to return the thumbed nose. We have an opportunity to change the default position. That might come in real handy in facing some of those pricklier international issues.
34 - The Obnoxious American
My posts got deleted TOO! Whats up with that????
35 - Andy Marsh
An elitist would be someone like you who thinks their shit doesn't stink. You're right and anybody else who doesn't agree with you is just stupid.
An elitist is someone who thinks that the folks that don't vote like them or act like them or think like them are somehow to stupid to know what's good for them.
An elitist is someone who believes that someone who doesn't give a rats ass about who Europe thinks should be the next president of the US believes those same folks feel they are somehow superior to anyone or that it translates into "we are gods!".
An elitist is someone who thinks the US has "fucked up royally over the past 6 or 7 years".
An elitist is someone who really believes that the dumbest person on the planet got elected president of the united states because to many people weren't as intelligent as he or she was when THEY voted for president.
As to your other question, no, not all democrats are elitists, I know a few who voted for Reagan.
36 - Baritone
So, McCain reading his speeches with his head buried in a piece of paper is better? I don't know what the hell you're talking about.
As noted, this was not Obama's stump speech. It was written specifically for this occasion. Do you really expect Obama, or anyone for that matter, to have memorized such a speech? They all use teleprompters - well, except for McCain who can't quite figure out how they work.
While it's likely true that our interests don't always jibe with those of the European Union, they probably coincide more often than not. I see no sign from Obama that he intends to bend to "Eurocentric" interests in disregard to our own. He does recognize that the U.S. is not the only game in town, and that there is mutual need and mutual benefit to be had in working more closely together in all areas of common interest. He is more likely to reach accords with these countries than Bush & Co. who just gave them ultimatums - our way or no way.
I know we've gotten used to a president who is a "plain talker" - one who rarely uses words having more than 2 syllables. If Obama's "fanciful" speeches are beyond your understanding, perhaps keeping a dictionary and/or a thesaurus at arms length would be helpful - especially if you use them as intended.
Oh, no, I forgot. Real Americans don't need no stinkin dictionaries or thessar, theesa - oh, hell - those other damn thingys.
B-tone
37 - Clavos
Barbara,
Much as I respect Baritone's opinions and enjoy debating him on these threads, I often do not agree with him, nor he with me.
The lengthy quote you ascribe to me in your #33 is actually Baritone's and in fact does not reflect my opinion.
38 - The Obnoxious American
"Persuasion and strongarming are two different things. "
Perhaps, although rarely in foreign policy. Ever heard the phrase speak softly and carry a big stick?
Besides, show me any strongarming by the bush administration of it's allies. Haven't our traditional allies pretty much done what they pleased in terms of their support of our war in Iraq?
Perhaps Bush isn't persuasive, I'll give you that one. But is Obama saying "America has made it's mistakes" to 200,000 cheering germans persuading them to do anything they don't want, or is it merely an adoption of their view against our own interests? Moreover, who is to say McCain wouldn't be more persuasive given his proven bi-partisan background and foreign policy credentials?
"The problem with the present administration is the attitude of "fer us or agin' us." "
I think you are vastly oversimplfying things Barbara. That's one of the issues I have with the left's platform, it charicatures the GOP views, rather than honestly debate them.
We have relations now, in some cases really good relations, with Russia, China, the Sauds, Turkey, Pakistan and many many other countries, who are sort of in that middle ground of being sort of for us and at the same time against us.
The argument you should be making is that Obama would be better at the diplomacy that already exists with these countries. Of course, then I'd ask you to back that up with something, and enthusiam alone just isn't enough.
39 - Baritone
So, according to Andy, anyone who did NOT vote for Bush, who is NOT a political conservative - is by definition an elitist. Good to have that settled.
YES, ANDY! THE U.S. HAS FUCKED UP PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING IT'S TOUCHED SINCE BUSH FIRST PLACED HIS PAMPERED LITTLE ASS IN THE OVAL OFFICE CHAIR!
Tell me. What's better today than the day before Bush took the oath back in 2001? Our security? Our economy? Our reputation? Eight years of the Bush Administration has been a cluster fuck for both the nation and the world in general. McCain offers more of the same.
B-tone
40 - Clavos
There's an interesting comment from a spokesman for German Chancellor Angela Merkel, made before Obama's arrival, when Merkel was informed that he was coming, and would be making an appearance before the public. It is quoted in Duetsche Welle:
"A spokesman for conservative German Chancellor Angela Merkel said that she had "limited understanding" for the presumptive Democratic presidential candidate's interest in holding a major policy speech in front of Berlin's landmark Brandenburg Gate during his visit at the end of the month.
"It is unusual to hold election rallies abroad," he said. "No German candidate for high office would even think of using the National Mall (in Washington) or Red Square in Moscow for a rally because it would not be seen as appropriate."
I think the comment is dead on.
John Cullinan notes, in National Review Online:
"Obama’s speech itself is an unusually restrained and cautious piece of work, crafted for delivery in Berlin and for its impact Stateside. Its aim was to skirt the Scylla of unabashed Europhilia (a la John Kerry) and the Charybdis of American exceptionalism (the Founding Fathers). The result is an intellectual shipwreck."
Cullinan adds:
"Even some American reporters, heretofore Obama’s biggest boosters, raised the same concerns about a premature victory lap, as this little colloquy in Politico shows:
'It is not going to be a political speech,' said a senior foreign policy adviser, who spoke to reporters on background. 'When the president of the United States goes and gives a speech, it is not a political speech or a political rally.'
'But he is not president of the United States,' a reporter reminded the adviser.
Indeed."
41 - The Obnoxious American
b-tone,
Really not sure what you are talking about. And have I ever said John McCain is a great speaker? In fact it's been universally agreed by the media that he is good in town hall formats, as opposed to reading from a teleprompter, the opposite of Obama who is better in front of a prompter than in a town hall.
As far as being able to remember the speech, Clinton did that time the teleprompters showed the wrong speech. He gave his speech from memory while the prompters were showing a totally differnt speech. Impressive!
But no, I don't expect him to memorize his speeches, I don't have much in terms of expectations for Barack Obama at all. However, given how much gushing seems to be going on about his speech giving abilities by nearly everyone in the entire world, I thought it was worth pointing out some of what I saw when I watched the speech (i didn't watch the whole thing yet).
When you want to stop throwing around generalizations about your fellow Americans on the right, I'll be happy to debate the issues with you.
42 - Andy Marsh
See B-tone, right there, I don't agree with you, so some how that gets turned into, "So, according to Andy, anyone who did NOT vote for Bush, who is NOT a political conservative - is by definition an elitist. Good to have that settled." I don't agree with you, so somehow that equates to the bullshit you put up. Find one line in my defintions of an elitist that refers to party of any kind...come on...just one.
That would be one more definition of an elitist, someone who can't figure out that a line like, no, not all democrats are elitists, I know a few who voted for Reagan, was an attempt at humor, would be an elitist. Same group that got their feelings hurt by the New Yorker cover.
I didn't say anything about political affiliation, I said, if I don't believe what you believe than I must be wrong, because your elite ass could never be wrong.
And of course, 9/11 was bush's fault, everything is bush's fault. Because all us non-elitists aren't as smart as you and we just don't know what's good for us. We even re-elected him! We must really be fucked up! I say we even though I voted third party...
We'll all just sit home and let your royal ass vote for us. We'll be home clinging to whatever if you need us...
43 - Baritone
It was not a typical campaign speech, nor was it delivered in front of the Brandenburg gate. And, it would seem that Pres. Merkel and Obama did in fact have some substantive discussion.
The speech was hardly a "shipwreck." It laid out some broad perspectives of how Obama is likely to proceed with foreign policy if elected.
That a "senior foreign policy advisor" made a verbal gaff is perhaps embarrassing, but is of little importance. Look at all of the gaffs McCain seems to spout almost daily, with little more than a ripple running through the media. Perhaps McCain should give a speech in Czechoslovakia.
Also, it's interesting how McCain and his people chided Obama for not having gone abroad, then chiding him for having done so. What a crock!
By the way, McCain also hit Obama for not visiting wounded American soldiers in German hospitals. Obama intended to do so, but was asked not to by the Pentagon owing to their perception of Obama's trip being political. Obama acceded to their request.
I did like a description of the two candidates' stops yesterday: "Obama appears before huge crowds in Berlin; McCain appears before two in the dairy section." How truly humble Sen. McCain is.
B-tone
44 - Andy Marsh
But no, I don't expect him to memorize his speeches, I don't have much in terms of expectations for Barack Obama at all.
Quoted for truth???
I liked it anyway!
45 - The Obnoxious American
Clavos, Nice stuff. I think it's a be presumptuous, but he is the presumptive candidate so I guess that makes sense. Anyways, it's not going to hurt him one bit. This man will be elected president, and as per my article "President Obama" the timing of his election will coincide with a better Iraq, a recovering economy and Afghanistan? Please.
8 years of Obama followed by a legacy that Bill Clinton could only wish for. JFK may even be jealous.
46 - Christopher Rose
Folks, Why Me/Jamal + various other aliases is a person who is banned from Blogcritics. No political censorship is occurring.
ObAm, I don't think any of your posts were deleted.
47 - Andy Marsh
The way I read it was, the Pentagon told Obama not to make it political and he opted out, I guess it's just where you get your source from. They're side by side on Drudge, one saying one thing, one saying the other, but I'm more inclined to believe the Pentagon side of the story...then again, they're just cronies for the bush administration, right B-tone?
48 - Andy Marsh
It was that conservative font that gave him away wasn't it CR???
49 - The Obnoxious American
B-Tone,
Finally we agree on something. McCain's campaign this week was idiotic. First off, why wasn't McCain down in texas in a blue collared shirt (no tie) helping families hurt in the storm. What a contrast that would have been to Obama's europetting. But no, he instead goes to a german restaurant (???)?
I don't get it. I won't be happy about a president Obama but with the media so in love with this guy, you are about to get what you wished for.
50 - Christopher Rose
Andy, I can think of other four letter words than font that might apply... ;-)
51 - The Obnoxious American
Chris, you're right, nothing of mine was deleted, it was me. Call it Friday Giddyness.
52 - The Obnoxious American
WhyMe, I've been a BlogCritic for perhaps a year now, and they've never unduly censored me, and I am on your side on this. I think Obama is one of the worst candidates the Democratic party has foisted upon the American people, albeit a great speaker. This comment won't be deleted.
53 - The Obnoxious American
WhyMe,
I don't agree that the Europeans hate Bush. Central to most Dems arguments is that our stature has fallen in the world, but as noted in today's Wall Street Journal edit page, this idea is "past it's sell by date."
France's Sarkozy is pro US, Germany's Merkel is pro US, UK's Brown is pro US as was of course Blair. The list goes on and on. Are we really trying to win over the hearts and minds of the leaders of the Kremlin or Beijing? Please. The idea that we have some repairing to do across the pond is poppy cock. We need to continue to look after our own interests over anything else, just like the rest of the world.
And more over, this idea of going to Germany and proclaiming that "America isn't perfect" in concilliatory tones makes me cringe. I don't remember for the life of me when any other country's candidate for leader came here and did that, Germany included. What kind of crapola is that?
54 - zingzing
ob: "And more over, this idea of going to Germany and proclaiming that "America isn't perfect" in concilliatory tones makes me cringe. I don't remember for the life of me when any other country's candidate for leader came here and did that, Germany included. What kind of crapola is that?"
the truth? and not even a hard truth. it's pretty vague.
i'd love to see a chinese leader come over here and say, "we sold you crap, lead-laden crap."
or an indian leader say, "yeah, we're stealing your phone center jobs."
or the canadian president say, "yes, our comedians once made you laugh, but that was in a time called the late 80s-early 90s. they suck now."
or the english p.m. say, "our teeth are so bad because we drink so much tea with milk and sugar and our understanding of dentistry is stuck in the early years of the FIRST queen elizabeth."
55 - Dr Dreadful
Just wanted to go all the way back to Baritone's comment # 1...
The other day someone (can't remember who, probably the Clavster) finally corrected you on the spelling of the expression 'bated breath'.
Got another one for you, I'm afraid.
The expression is 'shoo-in', not 'shoe-in'.
Gracias.
[This has been a Public Disservice Announcement.]
56 - Clavos
Guilty as charged, yer honor...
57 - Barbara Barnett
Bully for John McCain for his constant harping: "I would rather lose an election than lose a war." while suggesting (hell, saying) that Obama would sacrifice this country for his own political gain. The Obama campaign ain't taking the bait. McCain thinks he's onto something. All he's onto is shaming himself by accusing a sitting senator of what essentially amounts to treason. McCain forgets that this was an unnecessary war, a voluntary war, one that he supported beyond all reason while allowing our commitment in Afghanistan to be distracted.
I am so happy that the democrats have a candidate who is (while being a perfectly capable intelligent policy wonk) able to passionately espouse progressive American values, unlike his two predessors, Kerry and Gore, both capable men who allowed themselves to be boxed into a policy wonk stereotype. It ain't gonna happen this time.
58 - The Obnoxious American
Zing,
Not sure if you are trying to make light here, but how about starting with Germany for the atrocities of WWII? Russia for years of the cold war? Or even better, where is the desire for Hugo Chavez or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to apologize for their behavior? Strangely the euro centric community seems content to allow these guys to do what they may, come what may. Yet somehow the big bad US should come grovelling with hat in hand full of apologies.
I don't think so.
59 - Barbara Barnett
"Barbara,
Much as I respect Baritone's opinions and enjoy debating him on these threads, I often do not agree with him, nor he with me.
The lengthy quote you ascribe to me in your #33 is actually Baritone's and in fact does not reflect my opinion."
Apologies, Clavos.
60 - Dr Dreadful
zing2:
or the english p.m. say, "our teeth are so bad because we drink so much tea with milk and sugar and our understanding of dentistry is stuck in the early years of the FIRST queen elizabeth."
I don't think Mr Brown will be saying something like that any time soon. Especially not on the strength of this fascinating survey of tooth decay trends among 12-year-olds in 16 developed countries (and one Swiss city).
It shows that British 12-year-olds have the 6th best teeth, with an average of only 0.9 decayed, missing or filled teeth.
And whaddaya know? Languishing in 13th place, with an average 1.28 dodgy teeth per kid, is...
...oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.
61 - The Obnoxious American
Barbara,
I think Obama has proven that he will make the politically expedient point over the correct point. Just look at his recent support, of all things, the 2nd amendment ruling by the supreme court. If that's not pure pandering then perhaps I need to learn to use my eyes again. How you can claim this belies a policy wonk under the covers or anywhere else is beyond me.
Moreover, ALL wars are voluntary, all wars even the revolutionary war, was one of choice. Why we are talking about this I don't know, I suppose to hide the fact that Obama lacked the judgement to support the surge. Support of which is not dependent on initial support of the war.
62 - The Obnoxious American
Doc,
Surveys aside, I've been to the UK. I've seen it first hand my friend, might be a stereotype, but it's also true.
63 - Dr Dreadful
Obnox, I think you saw what you expected to see. Such is the power of the stereotype.
Other countries simply aren't as obsessed with straightness and whiteness as you lot are, that's all.
I do remember a few kids with braces at school, but unless there's some serious orthodontic issue, dentists just prefer not to muck about with young teeth if there's nothing wrong with them health-wise. Braces tend to be a stigma, not the badge of honor/rite of passage they are here.
Excellent dental care isn't hard to come by in the UK, either. For the record, my dentist fitted me with a gold crown and several fillings eight years ago and they're still holding fast, despite the best efforts of my current fang carpenter to dislodge them. He's flabbergasted and reckons he may never have to replace them.
The Japanese, on the other hand - now there are some nasty teeth.
64 - zingzing
ob, germany has never heard a peep out of europe, no... and russia is best friends with the e.u.... and chavez and ahmadinejad have never heard any criticism from that part of the earth...
i don't think the europeans asked obama to apologize for the u.s.. and i don't think he so much apologizing as laying the facts down. he was just saying what is clear as day to most anyone: america sometimes fucks up. meh.
and to the doctor dreadful...
please...
y'all got some funky teeth. it's ok! it's ok! it's not children i'm worried about. those teeth are going to fall out anyway. but, JESUS.
65 - zingzing
"The Japanese, on the other hand - now there are some nasty teeth."
they ain't called "the british of asia" for nothing.
actually, that's the only reason.
66 - Baronius
I just read the Berlin speech online. Wow, that's a bad speech.
It starts with race. When will people recognize that Obama is injecting race into the campaign all the time? Next, he gives a history of the Berlin airlift. How's this for a clunker of a line: "Look at Berlin, where the bullet holes in the buildings and the somber stones and pillars near the Brandenburg Gate insist that we never forget our common humanity." What??! That doesn't even make sense. And believe me, it's even worse in context.
Then he goes on to talk about all the walls in the world, all the symbolic walls. It reminds me of the El Guapo speech from The Three Amigos. We all must fight our own personal El Guapos, whatever they may be, although in this case, our El Guapo is the real El Guapo. Don't go to Berlin and talk about symbolic walls, ya moron.
Then to the heart of the speech. No, wait; there is no heart of the speech. Obama just talks about the things we need to do. Fight terrorism, eliminate AIDS, restrain the spread of the "deadly atom". (Seriously. I didn't make that up.) Does Obama think we haven't been doing these things? Is this speech written for those who never realized that Middle East peace should be a goal? Although, to be fair, not all of the points are obvious. Some are outlandish, like preventing storms.
I'd give it a B- if it were a high school paper.
67 - Jordan Richardson
Obama's speech does not start with race. It starts with an explanation of his personal history and how he came to wind up where he is. The only thing that comes close to representing race is when he says that he knows he doesn't look like the other Americans who have previously spoken there. That is simply a true statement.
Also, the "clunker of a line" you highlight makes absolute sense in the context of German history. He starts off that section quoting the German mayor at the time and repeating the whole "look to Berlin" thing. Framed in that context, again, it makes perfect sense. He's not talking to Americans; he's talking to Germans.
Don't go to Berlin and talk about symbolic walls, ya moron.
Because? It seemed to resonate with the people that were there, "ya moron."
The heart of the speech is about needing new hope, Baronius. I know that's a tough concept for people who are part of the "everything's fine" crowd, but the truth is that the rest of the world is VERY unsure about what America's goals are in the Middle East. We get our information from different sources and we have different points of view as to how America is behaving in a global context. This speech was meant to reassure the people of Berlin and, to a larger extent, the people of the world that America is trying to do some good in the world and there are people that want to do better and change things for the better. That's a message most of us living outside your borders don't know and you have to be able to acknowledge that. Obama did that. The America worshippers naturally tremble and piss at the idea that America isn't doing all it can, but the rest of the world sees things in another way. The fact that so many Americans ignore that and simply put their heads down and barrel through comes across as arrogant. You say you want to lead, then you don't lead anywhere but to hell. Bravo.
I realize that speeches are speeches. They're designed for PR. I'm not even sure that the precedent for Obama's speech as a candidate was there or that he even should have been there doing it as someone who MAY wind up being president. But I liked what I heard. I liked the idea that Americans (some of them) are interested in being better global citizens.
And when he's talking about the "deadly atom," he's talking about nuclear weapons. No, "you" haven't been doing those things. Not nearly enough. It's all been a whole lot of posturing, threats, and empty words. The world grows weary of war and yet the United States seems to only want war. The world needs to hear a different song from "you."
Interesting, too, that Baronius elected to rate the speech a B- even though he seemed to hate the whole thing and said it was "bad." What were the good points that enabled you to give it such a grade? Why not give it an F altogether?
68 - Baritone
Yes, Bush got re-elected and it's been great ever since.
Elitism is in the eye of the beholder. My view of elitism coincides more or less with that of what I believe was Barbara's above.
I do wonder what happened to some of the comments above. While I certainly didn't agree with them, I did not feel that any of them crossed into personal attacks. Did somebody hit the wrong button?
B-tone
69 - Baronius
B-tone, I got to this thread late, and it's really tough to follow.
70 - Dr Dreadful
zing2:
That photo is either
a) Shane McGowan of the Pogues
b) a meth addict
c) both.
Let me assure you that Mr McGowan's dental hygiene is a cause of great concern in the country of his birth. However, he's barely British since both his parents are Irish and he spent much of his childhood on the Emerald Isle.
71 - Baronius
Jordan, I can understand it if you prefer Obama ideologically, but don't try to defend the rhetoric of that "bullet holes" sentence. First, there's the painful metaphor that bullet holes insist something. Then there's the matter of what they are insisting: that we remember our common humanity. In what way do bullet holes remind us that we're commonly human? That humans don't like to be shot at, or what?
The insertion of race was unnecessary. It wasn't about looking at Berlin; it was about looking at Obama's skin tone. It's always about Obama's skin tone.
I know what the "deadly atom" was supposed to mean. It just sounds stupid, like there is one specific atom, and it's deadly. Maybe it translates into German better, but it sounds silly in English. You'd expect to hear it in a 1950's CD film.
I feel like I'm screaming about the Emporer's clothes. I'm not critiquing Obama's policies, but his awful presentation. Doesn't anyone else notice it? His words are awkward, his delivery is bad, and everyone talks about how articulate he is.
72 - Baritone
Baronius would not have liked Obama's speech had it been the Gettysburg address or the Bard's St. Crispens Day speech of Henry V. He is so predisposed to despise Obama that nothing he could say or do would pass Baronius' muster.
I must once again plead guilty to my "shoe-in" debacle. I can't say whether it's a mind thing or a finger thing. I guess it doesn't matter. It's obvious that I'm coming apart here. My brain is turning to Lorraine Swiss cheese - a bit more refined than just regular Swiss cheese.
B-tone
73 - Jordan Richardson
Oh noes!!!
74 - Dr Dreadful
B-Tone:
The deleted comments were from JOM. His Bannedness has been posting here under yet another alias. We've had to excise all of his comments.
Baronius:
I know. Somehow we got from Obama's Berlin speech to dental hygiene in the UK. This is what happens when zingzing comments in the Politics section, which (perhaps fortunately) doesn't happen all that often! ;-)
75 - Baritone
I don't believe Obama's speech was bad. It wasn't inspirational as some of his previous efforts have been. That could be at least in part due to the fact that he was speaking to a largely German audience. While I'm sure there were a large number of Americans and probably several Brits and Aussies, the majority of the audience probably had no idea what Obama was saying.
Obama is a skillful speaker, but, as with many gospel style orators, a great deal of the "inspiration" comes from the building to an emotional high which is largely dependent upon audience response. It just wasn't there. The few thousand English speakers in the crowd could not muster enough of a clamor for Obama to feed off of.
I just didn't find the metaphors as strained or painful as Baronius apparently did.
B-tone