Gay marriage is the defining civil rights issue of our time, and President Obama has put himself on the right side of history.
Endorsing gay marriage unequivocally, President Obama has ceased "evolving" and delivered an important social issue into the masticating jaws of 2012's cutthroat political campaigns. We should recognize two things about this.…
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— go to most recent comments26 - Glenn Contrarian
Now I've gotta stick up for Romney.
I remember doing some bad things when I was a high-school student, and some others (at least as bad as what Romney allegedly did) when I was a young sailor and supposedly an adult. I have learned much since then and I know how wrong I was and do my best to guide young people away from making the same breathtakingly stupid mistakes (willful acts every one) that I made.
So I will NOT judge Romney on what he did in high school, and I admonish the other readers here to also refrain from doing so. Men can learn, men can change, men can grow. If we preach tolerance for LGBTs, we can also preach tolerance for the follies of youth. Whatever I may think of or say about Romney, I will defend him on this issue. Good night, y'all.
27 - Igor
Glenn, you may have repented, but it appears that Romney has not, since he still denies any recollection of doing such a thing, and he appears to once again be embarking on a gay-bashing crusade with his political policies.
I think you've made a bad choice in defending Romney.
Romneys attempts to trivialise his brutality are contemptible and just emphasise his rude nature.
28 - Dr Dreadful
Have to agree with Glenn here: attacking Romney over something he did as an immature 18 year old is petty in the extreme.
Romney's problem is that while he's good at the management and glossy brochure side of politics, he just doesn't have the common touch as Reagan, Clinton and even Dub Jr did. He's a fish out of water when he interacts with the Great Unwashed, as I observed a few weeks ago in my article on "Cookiegate".
29 - troll
glad to hear it doesn't matter...I guess that period when he was 8 or 9 and got into lighting cats on fire doesn't much matter either
well that's what I heard
30 - roger nowosielski
I don't think attacking Romney for what he had done as a teen is at issue. Sobel's characterization of it, though, as normal or perfectly acceptable behavior -- i.e., all children are vicious -- is.
Again, one gets a distinct impression that Mr. Sobel was exposed to some such behavior either on the giving or the receiving end, which is why he considers it "normal." In short, he's universalizing from a rather small sample of particulars.
31 - Igor
Romney has done NOTHING to indictate that he has changed his contempt for people he regards as inferiors.
He is glad to fire people, and he doesn't worry about the poor because they have safety nets.
He's a monster. He'd be glad to push inferiors into the gas chambers.
32 - Jon Sobel
Romney is not a monster, he reflects a normal mindset among a large number of privileged people in this country. As for me personally, yes, I experienced some bullying as a child and witnessed a good deal more. 9 out of 10 of the bullies I knew (or more) grew up to be "normal" people who wouldn't behave that way as adults. That tells me kids ARE by nature vicious, and most grow out of it. I stand by that characterization.
33 - Dr Dreadful
My experiences were similar to Jon's, by the sound of things, and his conclusions seem about right. I personally made very little effort to keep in touch with anybody after leaving high school, so my sample size is smaller, but the few bullies I did later run into at one time or another made no effort to continue the bullying, and seemed to prefer to pretend that nothing had happened and that we'd all been great pals back then.
Then the question is: is Romney the one in ten? I've seen nothing to suggest that he's anything worse than a snob, and since Obama often gets accused of snobbery as well (with some justification), I can't see that as a disqualifier.
34 - roger nowosielski
Got to hold your ground, Jon, the best defense against bullying. But that doesn't make kids "vicious," just part of the process of growing up.
35 - Igor
@28-Dr D: This is absurd! To claim that such brutal violence is normal in some way is to slander every child who doesn't violate others!
Are you all mad? Do you REALLY believe that violence and torture is 'normal'?
Should we now punish children who do NOT do these things?
If violence, torture and personal violation are now 'normal' how about rape?
What about murder?
As for how this reflects on the adult Romney I refer you to Wordsworth:
MY heart leaps up when I behold
A rainbow in the sky:
So was it when my life began,
So is it now I am a man,
So be it when I shall grow old
Or let me die!
The child is father of the man:
And I could wish my days to be
Bound each to each by natural piety.
Indeed, the child IS father to the man, and so that character is the father of Romney and his propensity for brutality still courses through his veins. Especially since, like Judas, he denies it.
It disqualifies Romney from the presidency, IMO.
36 - Igor
@26-Glenn:
This is the most egotistically vain thing you've ever said. You just want to forgive Romney so that others may forgive you. Do you really think that you can layoff your own crime by magnanimously forgiving Romney?
Should the bank robber throw open the prison gates when seeking absolution for his crimes?
So I will NOT judge Romney on what he did in high school, and I admonish the other readers here to also refrain from doing so.
Who do you think you are, Glenn, the Pope? Handing out indulgences?
Vanity, vanity, all is vanity.
37 - Dr Dreadful
For fuck's sake, Igor, of course bullying is not sodding acceptable. But punish the kid for bullying, not the 65-year-old man. What next? Are we going to find out he regularly truanted two days a week and ding him for that as well? That he cheated on his SATs?
It's not like he was a guard at fucking Auschwitz.
And he didn't exactly deny it, he apologized for it but said he couldn't remember doing it.
38 - Dr Dreadful
And Igor, by "the child is father to the man" Wordsworth meant that our experiences as a child are part of our lifelong learning and development, not that the child and the man are the same person.
39 - Jordan Richardson
I think Igor's point is that Mitt the adult doesn't appear to have grown too much from Mitt the younger, so how the younger Mitt behaved did seem to have some bearing on how the older Mitt now behaves.
As for #38, I think that's exactly the point. And that's exactly why Mitt's bullying is relevant.
40 - Igor
@37-Dr D continues the futile and flimsy attempts at defending Romney:
For fuck's sake, Igor, of course bullying is not sodding acceptable.
Then why the fuck are you apologising for it?
But punish the kid for bullying, not the 65-year-old man.
Conveniently impossible, of course. Anyway, I'm not advocating sending him to detention hall, I'm saying that his propensity for unreflecting violent brutality disqualifies him from the vote of any sentient human.
It's not like he was a guard at fucking Auschwitz.
It's worse! He wants to be president of the US fucking A! have you learned NOTHING in the last ten years? Do you yearn for fucking atomic war with fucking Iran?
And he didn't exactly deny it, he apologized for it but said he couldn't remember doing it.
Thus proving what a weasel he is!
How could he forget his biggest achievement in high-school? Driving a fucking fag out of school! And NOT being punished by the fucking school or his fucking family! What green lights this must have given him!
No wonder he is contemptuous of Lower Life forms like mere US citizens. He likes to fire them. He doesn't care about them because they have safety nets.
Why do you defend him? Are you one of the fucking plutocrats that he respects? Do you think he will be favorably inclined to YOUR needs?
Bah! Your arguments are so flimsy I can blow them away with the merest wisp of breath!
41 - Igor
@38-Dr D now poses as an expert on Wordsworth. Perhaps the result of some séance, he arrives at this drivel
...by "the child is father to the man" Wordsworth meant that our experiences as a child are part of our lifelong learning and development, not that the child and the man are the same person.
Which is exactly wrong by Wordsworths own words and thoughts. The child IS father to the man! Not his experiences.
The child that harassed, humiliated and violated that fucking fag IS the man.
Dr. D should go back to his Quiet Place and contemplate Wordsworth. Not some exculpatory crap.
42 - Igor
@26-Glenn offers the most bizarre excuse yet for Romneys aberrant behaviour:
If we preach tolerance for LGBTs, we can also preach tolerance for the follies of youth.
Unbelievable! Now you are saying that being LBGT is a crime on the scale of violent physical aggression and humiliation.
43 - Dr Dreadful
Igor, I take it that you never did anything in your youth of which you are ashamed, in which case I humbly kiss your pixels.
44 - El Bicho
I remember a guy cutting another guy's ponytail off when I was in high school. How someone could do it and forget about seems a little hard to believe.
Now I don't hold it against Romney if he did do it, but please don't try and pass off his apology as anything more than trying to get people to shut up about the topic.
45 - Jordan Richardson
It also pays to remember Romney's reaction to the news now. Not only did he not really apologize, he laughed about it.
Romney demonstrated a lack of integrity with his chuckling and non-apologies, further illuminating his cowardice.
He could well regret his actions from way back when, but he has yet to demonstrate anything close to resembling real remorse.
46 - Dr Dreadful
Why does everything have to be either-this-or-that with these people? I'm no fan of Romney and the best that can be said about him is that the Repubs have managed to pick the least inept of a terrible bunch.
Yet I defend him on one point and suddenly I'm Karl fucking Rove.
I suspect the reason he laughed about it was that he couldn't believe somebody was bringing it up after all this time.
Personally I can't remember 99% of what I did at school, and some of what I do remember cannot, with hindsight, possibly have happened.
There is a plethora of reasons why Romney would make a terrible president, but fixating on something he did half a century ago is a bit like suing your husband for divorce after 50 years of marriage and citing as the principal cause that he was a bully at school.
47 - baritone
I DO think Romney shows signs of not having matured a great deal since his callow days. In his capacity at Bain Capital I would guess that he rarely was questioned or seriously challenged. He doesn't appear to handle being challenged by people during some of his stump appearances. He still has the base nature of a bully, as does Chris Christy.
48 - Jordan Richardson
Why does everything have to be either-this-or-that with these people?
Who are "these people?"
I can't remember 99% of what I did at school
Seriously? How old are you?
fixating on something he did half a century ago is a bit like suing your husband for divorce after 50 years of marriage and citing as the principal cause that he was a bully at school.
No. Romney's past is a "fixation" because it outlines a pattern in his behaviour and therefore proves illuminating.
Using your analogy: If said husband was a bully in high school, a bully in college, a bully in business, and so forth, one would imagine that at least one "cause" as to the dissolving of a relationship could have its roots in what is clearly a history of bullying.
Romney, in his dismissal and his non-apology in a time where bullying is a serious issue, exhibits said history of bullying and domineering behaviour. It is, as baritone stated above, his "base nature."
49 - Jordan Richardson
And really, if you (generally speaking) "can't remember" cruelly tormenting another human being, something might be wrong with you.
As Tom Junod points out, "a bully never forgets."
Junod writes: "...I can only wonder what kind of person I'd be if I tried to beat the rap of conscience on a technicality. I can only wonder what kind of person I'd be if instead of confronting the past I tried to forget it or, worse, tried to say it wasn't really that bad."
50 - zingzing
i'd like to watch romney burn for this... it's a terrible thing he did, especially if his target was chosen because he was gay. but...
say someone was a baseball star in high school, and then expected everyone to hold him in high esteem because of his high school accomplishments throughout the rest of his life... and people actually did. that would be kind of ridiculous. one shouldn't do the opposite either.
jordan's extension of doc's analogy is rather apt, however. romney certainly doesn't seem too interested in helping those he considers inferior to himself in any way. and romney pussed out on apologizing with real sincerity. his dismissive attitude about it suggests he hasn't learned his lesson.
but, it is a political attack. it's like the whole obama/church/david ayers thing. it's not as meaningful as people are making it out to be. and of course, the right has turned around and pointed towards not so sparkly bits of obama's distant past as well. it's mostly bullshit. and it's not going to change that many voter's minds. yes, romney may be a nasty bigot who thinks certain people are fair targets to people like him, but what does it really matter? the right will circle the wagons on this one and the left will look like a bunch of school marms. it's something to put in the back of your mind, and it's something that fair-minded undecided voters should consider, but other than that... it's high school bullshit.
there's a reason why youthful transgressions rarely go on the permanent public record. if they did, we'd all be damned.
i just wish romney actually regretted it. and maybe he will.
51 - Dr Dreadful
Who are "these people?"
Those who can't cope with an individual having a suite of opinions that doesn't align rigidly with one political position. (Americans, mostly. I blames the two party system.) Specifically those who, completely disregarding my entire previous body of commentary on this website, assume I'm a Romney shill because I express scepticism about a single Democratic talking point.
Seriously? How old are you?
45. High school was not a happy time for me.
Romney's past is a "fixation" because it outlines a pattern in his behaviour and therefore proves illuminating.
If Romney has not outgrown his bullying then this should manifest itself in his current behaviour, which is what we ought to be looking at.
Any resolution of the high school incident should be between Romney and the victim, if he's still alive.
At no point have I excused school bullying itself, which is rightly treated nowadays as a serious issue. Sadly, in young Mitt's day (and in mine), it wasn't.
52 - Jordan Richardson
If Romney has not outgrown his bullying then this should manifest itself in his current behaviour, which is what we ought to be looking at.
It does. I see no logical or ethical reason to ignore past behaviour, however, especially considering its relevance to modern issues. If a presidential candidate bullied a homosexual relentlessly in his formative years and subsequently takes on further homophobic stances in his "adult" years, his past is relevant because it speaks to unchanged attitudes.
Another issue is whether this was a prank/isolated incident or a pattern of behaviour. Some high school douche bugging a guy or smoking a joint or whatever is par for the course, but a pattern of behaviour that is couched in this sort of prep school bullying is something else altogether. It proves revelatory to the building blocks of Romney's ideology and therefore shouldn't just be swept into the "boys will be boys" dustbin. After all, this is the cad that essentially said "I like to fire people." This is the guy that strapped his dog to the roof of the car. Empathy, based on his past AND present, does not appear to be his strong suit. In tough economic times, that's a problem - and it damn well should be a problem.
It's a problem because his policy decisions intersect with his behaviour patterns. When Romney trots out a "gay voice" to select a dreaded pink tie, it reveals something. No, the incident - like the high school bullshit - shouldn't be isolated and picked over. But it shouldn't be ignored; it should be filed away and used as evidence to illuminate what is an obvious pattern.
Because of this pattern of behaviour, I don't "absolve" Romney's abusive high school behaviour. It set the bar that he's been living up to ever since and shouldn't be ignored by reasonable people.
53 - Cindy
Given the right circumstances children will be cannibals, nazis, rapists, and/or murderers. That we are capable of socially adapting to a toxic culture does not make any particular toxicity 'human nature'. There are humans whose children do not bully--and within whom bullying and violence is absent.
We seem to have been taught to equate 'normal' with something positive. Why do people believe that normality is a good thing? There is something very wrong with the idea of 'normality' as an excuse for behavior in a culture so chock full pathology as this one is.
It seems when people say this or that behavior is 'normal', they are saying it is 'natural'. That mistake may be the result of examining the normative behavior that exists within the dominating so-called 'civilized' cultures and seeing what the inhabitants do as 'natural'.
Raise your children in a snake pit and you will discover the 'natural' behavior of children is to act like snakes.
54 - roger nowosielski
I surely remember all the misdeeds I've done when younger. How could I forget?
55 - Cindy
I am with you, Roger. It goes along with having a conscience. I remember things I did that were mean when I was in 2nd grade. To imagine Romney can't remember holding down a boy at 18? It's absurd.
As the excellent article in the New Yorker stated, everyone else involved, who is known, has never been able to forget the incident "The one person who says he has not thought about it a lot is Mitt Romney."
Aside from excusing his behavior, I think there is a second issue. How are people seemingly able to shrug off and fail to hold him accountable for lying to benefit himself? Where is the outcry against that?
56 - zingzing
"To imagine Romney can't remember holding down a boy at 18? It's absurd."
i suppose that if it was a common occurrence for him, he might have forgotten that particular incident. of course, that's far more disturbing. according to the new yorker article cindy linked, it wasn't the only noted homophobic episode for romney during high school.
the money quote from new yorker: "1965 was different; but memory and empathy are not qualities that have only been invented since then."
he needs to deal with this in a more direct and sincere manner (as much as he can, given that his victim is dead). such is the nature of modern politics that contrition might do him more harm than good, and the more he's harped on for this, the more good it will do him.
57 - Jet Gardner
Which brings us back to how spineless Romney is on the issue of Gays.
He enthusiastically hired Richard Grenell, a respected and well-qualified gay friend and welcomed him onto his staff as his national security spokesman... then MItt's religious rightwing teabaggers had a fit and Grennel was forced to resign after his support for gay marriage drew intense criticism from conservatives.
Grenell also served as spokesman for then-U.N. Ambassador John Bolton under the Bush administration.
58 - Glenn Contrarian
Igor -
This is the most egotistically vain thing you've ever said. You just want to forgive Romney so that others may forgive you. Do you really think that you can layoff your own crime by magnanimously forgiving Romney?
(I would have replied earlier, but the train just pulled into Chicago)
'SCUSE YOU, Igor. I ask for no one's forgiveness this side of Heaven, for I am my own worst critic. I know what I've done wrong, and I've got to live with that - no amount of so-called "forgiveness" will ever erase the things I've done wrong. What I said is not vanity, nor is it reaching out for sympathy or empathy or forgiveness or anything else having to do with one's emotional foibles.
What it IS, sir, is a simple freaking fact. I think I'm a pretty decent individual these days, and when I compare what Romney did to what I did, it would be foolish of me to assume that he isn't at least as decent as I try to be since we've both (and you, IIRC) put several decades of not-so-easy maturing between what we are now and what we were then.
Next time, please be more careful with making judgmental statements, for such judgment sometimes says more about the judge than about the individual in question. But in this particular instance I don't think that applies to you, for you've normally shown yourself to be a fairly level-headed individual. I just think that either you assigned the wrong tone to what you saw in my comment, or I did not provide the proper context as I wrote that comment.
Lastly, you should know that I really don't like Romney, that I went through my fair share of bullying (as have my sons, which of course angered me all the more) and that I hate bullies and bullying, particularly since such bullying often works its way into their marriages. But I'm simply not going to judge one middle-aged man for what he did thirty or forty years ago. It's not up to me to forgive him, but it's also not my place to judge him.
Please consider that last sentence.
59 - Clavos
Igor says, in #31 that Romney, [Is] a monster. He'd be glad to push inferiors into the gas chambers.
And of course, that's true. We all know it is because Romney himself brags about that in every one of his campaign speeches.
Igor, you are a detestable, small minded, bitter old man.
60 - Clavos
It disqualifies Romney from the presidency, IMO.
Good thing your opinion counts for nothing, Igor.
You, who are so concerned about America would violate the most basic principles of law and judge and condemn Mr. Romney without benefit of the law.
How unAmerican.
61 - Zingzing
Hey, do you remember when Obama was a fascist who wanted to destroy white America (among many other very frightening things)? It's not just the right that can throw around ridiculous hyperbole, I suppose. I hope you detest them as well, clavos... Igor went well over the top there, but I'm pretty sure you're guilty of just the same from time to time, as are many of us.
62 - Jordan Richardson
I guess Clavos is playing an American today.
63 - El Bicho
"Igor, you are a detestable, small minded, bitter old man."
It's not like there's a limit on how many BC can have. By the way, "small-minded" is missing a hyphen.
64 - Zingzing
Omg, so cumming over clavos' lack of grammatical corr... ectness. Oh damn. Today is the day. Such a splooge....thank you el b. You are eternally blessed for this. Who knew it would be the hyphen that would trip the nazi up? Who knew? It's the small things, I guess, but here we are. It's Capone and the taxes all over again. They set themselves up like they're above it all, but then the most ridiculous little thing, a bit of hubris, knocks them over. Oo-de-lally, golly what a day. Take a round of applause, el b, and clavos, please please let the rest of us alone. You are prone to error as the rest of us are, and we won't call you on totally unnecessary bullshit if you won't. Let us all praise the day the beast was banished from the land. Clavos' nazi bit is done, if he'll just give it up!
65 - Clavos
Clavos' nazi bit is done, if he'll just give it up!
Whistling past the graveyard again...
Now you've challenged me, zing.
66 - Clavos
I guess Clavos is playing an American today.
That's the advantage to having dual citizenship, Jordan.
67 - Clavos
It's not like there's a limit on how many BC can have.
Never said (or even implied) there was, did I, EB?
However, I do think Igor and I are the only two. The difference is that Igor isn't deliberately detestable.
68 - Igor
@60-Clavos: my opinion counts for exactly the same as yours: one voice, one vote.
Romney was excused before: neither school nor parents confronted him. And now you want to forgive him again. I suppose that if he becomes president you will forgive his every action.
How do I join this new class of people for whom ALL is forgiven?
69 - Igor
Here's a hypothetical: suppose that candidate Mitt Romney is attacked by a gang of Gay Bikers and his head shaved bald. Should they be pursued and prosecuted? Or is it just "hi-jinks"?
70 - Dr Dreadful
How do I join this new class of people for whom ALL is forgiven?
There was a fellow who lived in the Middle East about two thousand years ago who had some ideas about that, Igor.
71 - roger nowosielski
He who is free of sin, let him cast the first stone.
72 - Dr Dreadful
Or should that be He who would be free of his gall bladder, let him pass the first stone?
73 - Clavos
Should they be pursued and prosecuted? Or is it just "hi-jinks"?
At most, they should be scolded or have a token fine imposed, and only because they are adults and should know better. The government already prosecutes too many people foolishly for non- "crimes" in this benighted country. Since WWII the US has gone from world leader to a near third world state, culturally.
74 - zingzing
"Since WWII the US has gone from world leader to a near third world state, culturally."
ha! old people...
75 - Dr Dreadful
I haven't heard that scolding and token fines are typical punishments in Third World countries. By most accounts execution, imprisonment without trial, disappearance, blackmail and the chopping off of various bits seem to feature more prominently in the legal systems of those regions.