The year was 1992, and Pat Buchanan made "culture war" a household word. The battle was on with socialism.
The term "culture war" blasted upon the American consciousness in 1992 at the Republican National Convention. Pat Buchanan made an address to the GOP that year, and defined this relatively new phrase as a "war for the nation's soul." That year marked the time our nation recognized it was fighting something from within — a pervasive secularism that threatened to create a government of socialism.…
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— go to most recent comments26 - Cindy
Cook? Cooke? is that the noble savage guy?
27 - Roger Nowosielski
I don't know about that - I thought it was good boy Friday. But yes - that's how thought progresses in time. Some would argue that all thought is historically-bound - e.g., Collingwood, "The Idea of History."
28 - Cindy
So, well I am wrong he did have an imagination. It's just not where I would start. Although I can see it is enjoyable for some people to.
I will have my best friend over. He's much like you in his interest in philosophy. He has also studied religion and psychology and Chomsky, et al.
He can give me an overview having understood all that.
29 - Cindy
He's a scholarly person and retains enormous amounts of information. I don't retain detailed information and have to use references all the time.
30 - Roger Nowosielski
Didn't Newton said: We all stand on the shoulders of giants. Anyway, it doesn't mean they're easy reading. I could never get through Hobbes - archaic style and old. But there are some great secondary sources. William Connelly, e.g., Modern Political Theory. You should pick it up if you can.
31 - Cindy
I'd rather use my friend John. He makes a great talking reference.
I've already taken 3 philosophy classes in my life, Intro and Ethics and Logic. That is quite enough for me. I also took ancient Greek and Latin.
He remembers Greek (we took it together). I don't.
They bore me.
32 - Roger Nowosielski
I'm not scholarly - just interested in certain topics - political philosophy, ethics, philosophy of language, literature.
I didn't even understand the Hobbesian system until two days ago - as I'm preparing for the next paper.
33 - Cindy
What is it on? I forgot.
34 - Roger Nowosielski
An encyclopedia of knowledge.
35 - Roger Nowosielski
Moral argument vs. privatization of prisons.
But the other thing is - knowledge is less important than understanding; and since you have an active mind, just let it guide you. And once you understand something, you don't forget. Ever!
36 - Cindy
Ah yes! I'll like that.
37 - Cindy
Okay time for bed. Book on tape waiting. Goodnight. :-)
38 - Roger Nowosielski
OK!
39 - Al Barger
Lono sez:
That's nitpicking and overly sensitive. We do not have religious tests for office - though many voters my look askance at an avowed atheist. But that's well within their rights as voters. We don't have state sponsored churches or sharia law. This is princess and the pea sensitivity.
Yes, you're absolutely right - but so what. Your statement there does not vindicate Obama from charges of socialism, it simply (and correctly) indicts George Bush as well. They're both guilty.
The really sad thing is that you're probably more or less right there. A lot of people clearly were not thinking much about Obama's policies. They were more interested in him being black and cool, as black people of course inherently are. Still he put up plenty of policy proposals of the Marxist college professor variety - cause that's what he is. But anybody who cared about actual issues knew that they were voting for the most leftwing member of the US Senate.
This is not a very good argument. For starters, we've got something to show for the Iraq investment. They've gone from being among the ugliest players in the region to our new ally and beacon of hope in the reason. That would be as opposed to just flushing money through every Democrat glory hole in the land.
And at that, liberating 25 million people and eliminating a major regional threat has not cost what this stimulus package is blowing on pleasing unknown patrons (Chinese,Saudis?) sticking their weenies in for US to please from the other side of the glory holes in our eagerness to get their big hot loads of loans.
40 - Glenn Contrarian
Cindy -
Is it possible that Arch-Con thought it applied to him...because maybe it did?
41 - Baritone
"For starters, we've got something to show for the Iraq investment. They've gone from being among the ugliest players in the region to our new ally and beacon of hope in the reason (sic)."
Now THAT'S a bogus argument. If the US military maintains a presence in Iraq for 50 years or even John McCain's 100 years, the moment we walk away, the country will revert to civil unrest - conflicts between Sunnis and Shias and probably the Kurds as well - that will eventually blow up into civil war.
Look what happened in the Balkins after 50+ years of Soviet control. Within months of the dissolution of the USSR, ancient conflicts between various factions in the region exploded into violent conflict.
You can't put a bandaid on this type of thing and expect it all to heal. Iraq hardly stands as a "beacon of hope" for anything. Talk about looking at something through rose colored glasses. The nearly 600 billion dollars spent in Iraq have been a total waste - not to mention the lives of thousands of American and allied troops and the many thousands more lives of Iraqis lost. The war was/is an absolutely stupid waste of humanity, effort and resources.
At least with the stimulus, there is at least some hope that actual Americans may reap some benefit from it. Far better than spending billions to kill Iraqis.
BTW - By and large most atheists are far more moral than most christians and other believers. We don't allow for some imaginary god to "speak" to us about who we should be killing in hisherit's name.
Oh, and I prefer Hobbits to Hobbes. I mean life in "The Shire" is pretty inviting - except perhaps for all that foot hair.
B
42 - The Haze
"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear." --Marcus Tullius Cicero 42B.C. #40 - ...or maybe Cindy cut a wider swath with the brush...because she meant to.
43 - Baronius
Most presidents have sworn their oath with "so help me God" at the end, with their hand on a Bible. Not all. Historical accounts are fuzzy, but some have affirmed (rather than sworn) the oath, some haven't added the reference to God, and at least two didn't make their oaths on the Bible. JQ Adams and Pierce took their oaths with a hand on a book of law.
"By and large most atheists are far more moral than most christians and other believers."
That statement is nonsensical on its face. It depends on the definition of morality, which varies by belief system, but which has a major break between theists and atheists. Jesus said that the first and greatest law is to love God. If you accept that moral code, then obviously atheists aren't better than theists. It's equally obvious that no atheist will accept that moral code.
44 - Baritone
Jesus said, jesus said, jesus said... So what? Neither jesus nor any christian, nor any religious tradition "invented" morality. Believers have proven to be not such hot shit when it comes to morality.
True believers - whether believers in a god or a state, or a "fatherland," are in fact responsible for millions of deaths from early human history up to and including the present day.
B
45 - Glenn Contrarian
Baronius -
Hm. I know that's not your quote, but I think it would be apropos to note that in the grand sweep of history, those who adhere to mainstream 'Christianity' have killed more people in the Name of God than the adherents of any other religion.
But are atheists off the hook? One need only to point at the victims of officially-atheist China's 'Great Leap Forward' (@ 10 million IIRC) and the officially-atheist Soviet Union (upwards of 20 million). Nothing committed by any religion in history compares to these.
But all such cases - religious or not - bear one similarity: the desire to achieve and/or preserve power of the lives of others.
46 - Cindy
True believers - whether believers in a god or a state, or a "fatherland," are in fact responsible for millions of deaths from early human history up to and including the present day.
That is the crux of the problem.
47 - Roger Nowosielski
Does it include the conservatives, too?
48 - Baritone
"But are atheists off the hook? One need only to point at the victims of officially-atheist China's 'Great Leap Forward' (@ 10 million IIRC) and the officially-atheist Soviet Union (upwards of 20 million). Nothing committed by any religion in history compares to these."
Those and the Nazi Holocaust victims were not killed in the name of Atheism. They were killed, as I noted above, in the name of a state which simply was a replacement for a god, or a god by another name. It was still a bunch of true believers who found it acceptable, preferable even, to kill in the name of an ideology. I've yet to see or know of any "atheist" armies sent out with the stated mission to kill believers.
Of course there have always been believers killing other believers. And so it goes.
B
49 - Glenn Contrarian
Baritone -
I did not say that they were killed in the name of atheism - though many were killed because they refused to NOT be religious. If you'll check, the Nazis also executed something like two million Catholics...because they were Catholic. But was this because the Catholics refused to be athiest? No. It was because Hitler and his cronies saw the Catholics as a threat to their power...and decided to do something about it (never mind that the uber-Catholic regime in Croatia at the time was allied with Nazi Germany and exterminated well over a half million non-Catholics simply for not being Catholic...).
What I said is that the atheists killed for much the same reason as the religious zealots: the desire to achieve and/or preserve power over the lives of others.
50 - Cindy
B,
Is it necessary then to continue to believe in a state?
51 - Cindy
RE # 42
I have often thought that if a rational Fascist dictatorship were to exist, then it would choose the American system.--Noam Chomsky
52 - Roger Nowosielski
I don't know what he's trying to say via #42.
53 - Roger Nowosielski
These are the people who destroy America:
Standord.
54 - Cindy
Roger,
Here is my interpretation: The best way to set up a "rational Fascist dictatorship" is not to create a blatant totalitarian state, but to create the "impression" of a free state.
Beyond that, I would add (and this is in agreement with other things Chomsky has said), make the state function in such a way that through the embedded propaganda system, the citizens endorse and promote it.
And I would say that the citizens will actually fight to keep it in place.
55 - Roger Nowosielski
So do you think it's happening here?
56 - Roger Nowosielski
Give me some references, anyway, where he's talking about that. OK?
57 - Roger Nowosielski
This time I'm gone.
58 - Cindy
Holy smokes! NYU was just occupied hours ago. Someone just gave me link for streaming video and comments coming from the college.
59 - Cindy
University of Tennessee just ousted their president.
60 - STM
Gnome Chompsky is a plaster garden gnome. It lives down the end of my garden, near the shed, has a stupid-looking hat and large teeth.
And since our Gnome can't think or speak, his political discourse is roughly equal to that available much of the time on the BC threads, especially those relating to the misguided, red-neck interpretation of what constitutes "socialism" in modern America (as opposed to the "community" practised by many of the other great modern liberal democracies who put the US to shame in that regard).
Just remember, it was the "personal responsibility" advocates who shouted longest and loudest about unregulated and unfettetered lending, bizarre finance-sector products like CDOs and CDSs, and the corporate sector that bought into the pea-and-thimble trick so all those involved could get rich at our expense, that should now be carrying the can for our current situation and the global financial crisis. The problem with "personal responsibility", small government and lack of regulation in America today is that often comes with another label attached: "greed", and that at the expense of others who are already getting shafted.
Or, to put it another way, it's been: "I'm alright Jack, who cares about you?" If the 80s was the deacde of greed, the noughties have been the decade of greed and irresponsibility.
And let's not forget the CEOs who drove their own companies into the ground, in the process costing thousands their jobs, not just in the US but around the world, but who've still walked away with millions in golden parachutes.
My bet would be that if the Founding Fathers could see the "me-first" culture that has overtaken modern America, the big corporations and their major shareholders who act like the kind of old feudal lords against which America first rebelled, and the damage it's wrought, they'd be turning in their graves and thoroughly sickened.
Real change in America is now inevitable, driven by a seriously dangerous economic downturn damaged by that outmoded me-first current thinking 'til now - no matter how ridiculous Obama's "hope and change" rhetoric sounds.
Every man for himself-style greed, trickle-down or supply-side economics and the neo-conservative ideology that promotes such deluded thinking will be out; community and social democracy will be gradually introduced to mainstream US politics, lobby groups and corporations will lose much of their bizarre power to influence decisions of a government that is meant to be of the people, and that old and non-existent red-herring of "socialism" will best left to discussions about places like Cuba.
So if this is where America's headed, and is putting power back in the hands of the people where it belongs, is that such a bad thing?
Otherwise, America can't be regarded as a liberal democracy (yes, that's democracy in the modern sense, not the ancient Greek).
Without these changes, it simply remains an imperialist-style oligarchy that has removed the average American from much of the political process, a process whereby certain groups in the US are making a mockery of everything America is meant to stand for.
That includes truth and justice. The other important one that gets forgotten about is "community".
61 - Glenn Contrarian
STM -
I just posted this in a different topic (and please forgive my over-the-top patriotism - I know that Australia's in many ways freer than America), but after reading the crystal-clear common sense in your post above, I think it belongs here, too:
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Give the poor a sincere welcome, more opportunity, and even a leg up, and what do you get? AMERICA!
62 - STM
What did Lou Reed call it? The Statue of Bigotry.
"Give me your hungry, your tired your poor I'll piss on 'em
That's what the Statue of Bigotry says
Your poor huddled masses, let's club 'em to death
and get it over with and just dump 'em on the boulevard ... "
I agree, Glenn ... the America that my mother and father spoke about (and my father was a British Army veteran who spent a lot of time working very closely with Americans), and the America I learned about as a kid at school, is NOT the America of today.
I even remember my mother standing in front of the TV crying when John F.Kennedy was killed - and the enormity of that display of emotion is shown in the fact that we're not even Americans because to her, even though she was moved by the human aspect of the tragedy, there also seemed to be an element of the death of hope in a divided world then facing off and still recovering from a dreadful conflagration.
America represented a big part of everyone's hope for a better world (and if you don't realise it, guys, it still does).
And don't worry about being patriotic. You'd have to be patriotic and a flag-bearer for the real America and the obvious true intent of that beaut little document in the face of some of the nonsense people are punting up about this subject.
What, the greatest American value is now: "I only care about me, let's all make a buck at other people's expense, as long as I've got my stack, the rest of you can get f.cked?"
Please, spare me the bollocks. How is that a real country? It's just a stack of indivduals all set against each other in their search for the biggest slice of the pie. The solution to that mindset and the deluded ideology that goes with it, and which has put America where it is right now, has nothing to do with "socialism".
The inability to tell the difference between "community" and opening your arms to all and caring for your own, and the bogeyman of "socialism", is quite frightening to outsiders who can only act as interested observers.
It's not the America they told me about, nor is it I suspect the America of the vast majority of her people, and it's certainly not the America I respect.
Also, my own country went down the same path recently, so none of this isn't criticism I wouldn't level at my own joint. Thank God they've gone, though, the perpetrators of that so that we can all move on.
63 - Jordan Richardson
Interesting to note that at the same time America was celebrating the Statue of Liberty, thousands of Chinese immigrants were being shut away at Angel Island.
64 - Glenn Contrarian
STM -
You're absolutely right - I've seen it myself in nearly every country I visited. That's why I do try to play the part of the sincere, generous and courteous-to-a-fault American wherever I go, and in third-world countries if I get ripped off a little bit, no big deal - they need it more than I.
That's also why I'm so deeply offended when I see an American - and particularly an American serviceman - do something rude, dishonorable, or criminal in another country. It shames us all, and makes life much more difficult for the other Americans there.
I fly no flag on my porch and post no flags on my cars (and I grimace inwardly at the ones who really overdo it like their English counterpart, the proverbial Brit with the Union Jack tattooed on his bum), but I am quite patriotic...even though we just today put down earnest money on a property in a third-world country where we hope to retire (not too far (in travel time) from Down Under, thankfully). But you know what? Even though I may not grow old in America, wherever I am, there America is.
65 - Cannonshop
Get out while your money still has some Value, Glenn, and best of luck to you because when the dollar plunges, whatever you've got saved is going to equalize with the local currency, and that's probably not going to be good for you. (better than for those of us who're staying, though.)
66 - Roger Nowosielski
About time, STM. The few of us here can't fight this fight alone. Welcome back.
67 - Roger Nowosielski
PS: Also, give my "The New World Order, Part I" a quick read. It raised the exact same points you bring up in #60.
68 - Roger Nowosielski
In perfect agreement with all comments from #60 on - including Jordan's. The question is - what to do with m ...........ers like Sanford who abscond with their fraud money to Switzerland or the Caymans?
69 - Cindy
Stan,
You are indeed the man! Great posts!
70 - STM
Cannon: "Get out while your money still has some Value, Glenn, and best of luck to you because when the dollar plunges"
Mate, the dollar's not going to plunge.
The simple truth is, guys, everywhere is fucked as well because of this crisis. It's all relative.
We're doing better than almost anywhere in this global crisis so far because of the regulations on our banking sector and the two stimulus packages the federal government has pushed through, but our dollar's fallen in the past six months or so from near parity with the US dollar to about 65 cents - because the Chinese and Japanese are screwed and aren't buying our raw materials.
Pop goes the huge cash cow of the Australian mining boom, in one fell swoop.
My tip, try to buy American ... support your own people, keep your own economy going. Even buying your lunch or you sandwiches or even just a coffee or two at the local diner helps. That saves another half dozen jobs, and that's another half dozen pay packets NOT taken out of the equation and whose money is still circulating.
That's the trick ... just keeping all that money going around, including YOUR taxes, which actually doesn't belong to the US government but to the American people.
Don't buy foreign cars (unless they're from Australia, like GM Holden's Pontiac G8, 'cause apart from the Poms and possibly your northern neighbours, we're your only real mates:), buy locally grown and produced foods, everything in season so you know it's not from elsewhere, etc etc.
Keep a few more auto workers in jobs, keep a few more paypackets floating and contributing.
This crisis will last a few years.
What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.
So let's hope it doesn't bloody kill us.
71 - Roger Nowosielski
I like your suggestions, STM, about supporting local economies. It may be too late for that, I'm afraid.
I realize all is relative here - but I'm not certain about your argument about the dollar not plunging. All currencies will more or less equalize to the level of say, the peso - I think.
I did mean to ask you about Australia. There isn't much news coming from out there concerning this crisis. Are they more immune because of the distance and/or relative isolation? Likewise with Canada - it doesn't seem to be as adversely affected by the meltdown as Europe is for instance.
Your thoughts?
72 - Glenn Contrarian
STM -
I disagree. I think the economy will bottom out in mid-to-late '09, and next year we will begin the long, slow climb back to 'normalcy'.
But that's not based on anything concrete - just my own gut feeling - so if there's a betting pool on which month we'll bottom out, I got September '08! (but I won't bet money)....
73 - STM
Baritone: "I mean life in "The Shire" is pretty inviting".
Baritone, I actually DO live in The Shire ... Hornsby Shire :)
And it IS inviting. I just hope it continues that way over the next few years.
(One of my neighbours has even behaved like Gollum in the past, and has been about as accommodating, especially in the never-ending arguments about the grand old trees and flowering plants in my driveway garden, the position of the colourbond fence, the alleged legal fence line, the cocos palm and the retaining wall. But I say, everyone being nice for the sake of peace can and does work miracles)
Apart from that, it's all good.
74 - STM
Roger, Canada would probably be in a similar position to us. Our banking sector has been pretty heavily regulated.
Its exposure to toxic debt isn't huge. Lenders have largely been responsible (they are required to be under federal laws). The four major banks in this country were named over the past four weeks as being in the top 15 of the world's banks in this current crisis.
What WILL impact us is the fall in sales of raw materials like iron ore, of which this country is literally awash, and finished metals like steel.
Because, as they're not making as much stuff in China, Japan or America (which is also a customer), that means we lose customers and it weakens the very thing that has kept us afloat.
We've had two multi-billion stimulus packages, one before the Christmas, the other just approved.
The Christmas one involved giving most families in this country about $2000 to spend - which led to a huge upsurge in Xmas retail sales (record figures) and very likely saved some jobs and created others.
The governent was already generous, but it doubled the first-home buyers grant to $14,000 (available to anyone buying a house or apartment for the first time), and tripled it to $21,000 for anyone building a brand-new home for the first time, hoping to keep the building industry afloat and encouraging people to borrow. This is a cash grant that can be added to a home deposit.
The number of people now seeking mortgages because of the grant and lower interest rates and falling house prices, has boomed.
Other parts of the stimulus packages are aimed at infrastructure projects and job creation, and only time will tell. The latest one has just been passed by the Senate and will deliver about another $900 in cash to most individual Australians to spend as they see fit - all aimed at keeping the cash flow going around.
Largely, though, in terms of our isolation - we're not really isolated since our close neighbours are the Asian tigers - and feeding ourselves, we're more than self-sufficient (check that World Atlas, Rog!). We feed ourselves easily and what seems like half the world as well, so we won't starve just yet.
I just hope the breweries stay afloat.
People need to keep buying beer - otherwise, we're really stuffed.
75 - STM
Glenn, the banks in America need to start lending again - responsibly, though. That money needs to start moving around once more.
It's not doing much good locked up in the virtual vault.
This is a crisis of confidence as much as anything.
And I can't see the US dollar fluctuating much in relative terms.
If it does fall, though, Americans should rejoice (unless they're going on an overseas holiday :) ... because as we know in this country, it's a great opportunity to open new export marekts.
Which right now is one of the things America needs. Unless you guys keep making and selling stuff, you're in deep doo-do.
This is part of the reason for America's current problem.
Shuffling and selling bits of paper and making up dodgy financial products on Wall Street has been tantamount to a modern-day pyramid-selling scheme and isn't really a great replacement for the falling American manufacturing sector - as we can now see.
Yanks have to get back to what they're good at: making real stuff and using that fast talk to sell it at the best price.