The wind is starting to blow in Ma'aleh Levona and the wind of change is coming over the land. The issue is what is the change, and how is it being brought about?
Before we explore this all it is necessary to do two things: one is to note when the serious fighting with HizbAllah began; the second is to return to a seemingly stale story out of Samaria from early July.
The fighting in the north began exactly three weeks before the fast of Tish'a B'Av. This is also a fast day, Yud Zayin Tammuz (17th of Tammuz) albeit a "half fast," the kind of fast the Moslems modelled the Ramadan fast on. This fast day remembers when the Babylonians broke into the city walls 2,500 years ago before destroying the Temple on the 9th of Av. This period marks the beginning of what is known as "the three weeks" of mourning the loss of Jerusalem and various restrictions on behavior are imposed progressively during it, all leading to the full fast on 9 Av.
In addition, one is supposed to remember and seek forgiveness for errors committed in the past. An example of this would have been for government leaders to admit openly that the expulsion of Jews from Gush Qatif a year ago was wrong, along with the withdrawal from southern Lebanon six years ago. We are, after all, paying for those acts in blood now, and were paying for them then in July.
This did not occur. Indeed the opposite happened. Mr. Olmert, who holds the title prime minister here, insisted several times that the actions of expelling Jews from Gush Qatif was the right thing to do. Indeed, in speaking with several expellees from Gush Qatif, Mr. Olmert was quoted saying, "I just came from speaking with the parents of the pilot who was killed in the Israel Air Force helicopter crash a few days ago. Their son we sent not [on a mission of] settlement, and neither did he come back with compensation; he came back in a coffin!" The other Ehud, Ehud Barak, who oversaw the withdrawal (or sudden flight) of Israeli troops from southern Lebanon six years ago also insisted that he had been right. So much for sackcloth and ashes.
The second item WorldNet Daily's "Rocket War in the West Bank" deals with the efforts of the Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigades to fire rockets all over Israel, particularly after Olmert's planned withdrawal from towns like Ma'aleh Levona and expulsion of its residents. Let's remind you all that the Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade is associated with good old Uncle Mahmoud Abbas, the Arab who so many western leaders would have us cut a deal with.
Now, we can move to the next stage of covering what just what is going on here. Friendly Uncle Mahmoud endorsed the efforts of HizbAllah a couple of days ago.
BREAKING STORY- ABBAS ENDORSES HEZBULLAHI don't have a URL link to this, but I'll limit myself to the main facts. The anchor of the brodacast, which originated out of San'a, Yemen, stated that "The Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has noted that members of the Palestinian government are either being arrested or pursued by the Israelis. His declarations came in a press conference that was held in Sana'a, as he was carrying out an official visit."
Byline: David Bedein, Special to the Evening Bulletin
EXCERPTS OF REMARKS BY MAHMOUD ABBAS, PALESTINIAN PRESIDENT, (AL ARABIYA TV, 17:45 (GMT+3) AUGUST 06, 2006)
"We definitely perceive the resistance in Lebanon as noble Arab resistance".
Note - The following was translated from Arabic by the Middle East News
Line (MENL)
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Mark Schannon
Ruvy, it's hard to know even what to say. What a horrible irony that both our countries are being led by people who haven't a clue...and yet, that seems too trite. How could they not know? How could your PM & our President not understand the folly they've created?
It's enough to make one a conspiracy theorist. Where's Oliver stone when you need him.
Great post.
In Decaf Veritas
2 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Thanks for the kind words, Mark. You don't need Ollie Stone around when you have Barry Chamish...
3 - Dean
Why is it so important to occupy land in violation of UN Resolutions and international law?
4 - Christopher Rose
Ruvy, why don't you consider campaigning for a secure Palestine with agreed borders? That would completely remove any possible argument, motivation or excuse for hostility towards Israel and make any subsequent actions starkly apparent.
It would also make it impossible for any other nation or organization to plausibly characterise Israel as the bad guy, a charge to which it is completely vulnerable as things currently stand.
5 - gazelle
I think ruvy's stuck at the wrong spot on the planet with the wrong story. what luck !
n o t h i n g can make this r i g h t !
best
6 - Victor Plenty
Nobody has an ironclad claim to the land called Israel by some and Palestine by others.
7 - JustOneMan
Chris...you are missing the point...zealots from Ruvy's cult and HizbAllah DO NOT WANT PEACE. Both are convinced that this is the "end of times". These acts will fullfill their prophecies...so both sides of the extreme are heading full steam ahead praying for armageddon
8 - gazelle
#7
when will this show end ?
best
9 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Dean, you got a great question - for Ehud Olmert. He's the guy ordering the invasion of Lebanon.
Chris, there is already a secure territory that is the eastern half of the opriginal Palestine mandate called JORDAN.A great iea would be to grant Jordaniasn citizenship to all the Arab residents of this country and gradually move them - making sure that they have a decent living and opportunities to improve their economic situation - to the eastern bank of the Jordan River. That would provide peace.
Gazelle, what can I say? In a different timeline, I might be in a different part of the world with a different story. But right now I have to cope with this one.
10 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Victor, if you do not believe in either the Bible or the Qur'an, what you say is true. But for those of us who are believers, there is a divine destiny assigned this land.
And Chris, you still haven't figured it out? Our leaders for sixty years were willing to compromise our aims and goals, always accepting half a piece of pita in place of a whole one. Our neighbors have not. We're tired of holding our hands out offering peace, only to get them chopped off at the wrist by some maniac screaming "Allah is great!"
11 - Christopher Rose
Ruvy, I don't recall any time when Palestine had secure borders so your "response" is meaningless. Care to try again to address my point or are you blinded by your rancid, aged dogma?
12 - Dean
At the end of the 1967 Israeli-Arab war, Ariel Sharon said, "We have peace - a piece of Egypt, a piece of Jordan, a piece of Syria, a piece of Lebanon." Asked what he would do with the Palestinians on the West Bank which was occupied by 1.2 million Palestinians, Sharon said, "We will make a pastrami sandwich out of them - we will put settlements through them so that in 25 years they will be no more."
There is no indication that this objective has really changed. There is no reason to believe it will change.
For no rational reason, the United States has made this objective, its objective.
Therein lies the problem.
13 - Victor Plenty
Ruvy, I'm aware of Biblical arguments in favor of Zionism. To whom does the Qur'an grant the land of Israel, in your opinion? That could be an interesting line of reasoning.
When I say nobody has an ironclad claim, I'm simply stating the fact that there is not yet any claim everyone can agree upon.
14 - Victor Plenty
Chris, it seems you're confused by the term "Palestine" as are so many others.
When radical Islamists talk about Palestine, they usually mean everything currently under Israeli control: the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights, and the entire territory of the modern state of Israel. They want all the Jews dead or gone from all of that land, and will accept no compromise short of that goal.
When moderates on both sides talk about Palestine, these days they often mean only the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, and possibly some narrow corridor of land to connect them. Thus there is some overlap between their definition of Palestine, and the radical Islamist definition of Palestine. Not that this overlap will make it any easier to persuade the radicals to compromise.
On the rare occasions when hard-line Zionists like Ruvy are willing to allow that something called "Palestine" could exist at all, they are not talking about any of the land mentioned above. They are instead talking about the territory currently held by the modern state called Jordan. This is a state with secure borders, just as Ruvy said. If ideology could be laid aside, and international assistance channeled into the project, it would be quite practical for all the Palestinian refugees to find a home and a future in that land.
Sadly, nobody in the Arab world seems willing to lay aside their ideology just to find a home and a future for the Palestinians. It is far easier to keep the Palestinians in misery and manipulate world opinion so all the blame gets placed on Israel.
Of course the Israelis are not entirely blameless, but neither are the Arabs who happen to be bent on Israel's destruction. Both share equally in the guilt for the plight of the Palestinians.
15 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Dean @ Comment #12;
I was with you most of the way in your comment. Sharon did indeed express the sentiments he did, and "fathered" many yishuvím, which is the appropriate name for the Jewish towns and villages that dot the hillsides of Yehudá and Shomrón.
For many years the policy he expressed was the policy or the government of Israel, at least officially.
In 1992, "secret" negotiations began in Oslo which were carefully monitored from Washington (they said the precise opposite and made a big stink about not knowing hat had happened in Oslo). The resulting "Oslo Accords" set down as policy the evacuation of ALL yishuvim in Gaza, Yehudá and Shomrón.
Those policies represented in large part the policy initiatives of the State Deparetment since 1967, iniatives that had been laid down in policy papers of the Council of Foreign Relations.
Budging the Israeli government from following "Oslo" like a lemming committing suicide by jumping over a fjord, has been nigh impossible. This is why there will have to be régime change in this country, a coup d'état that eliminates the secular élite that is ruining the nation.
16 - Dean
Rationally, the only claim on the land has been, and should be, determined by the UN and international law.
There is war because there is no law.
17 - Victor Plenty
Dean, the UN determined borders for Israel and Palestine in 1947. Are those the borders you have in mind? If so, why? If not, why not?
18 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
The folloing essay was written by Aryeh Y. Gallin, President of the Root & Branch Association, Ltd and published today. It represents the claim of our people to this land, not merely according to the Bible, but more importantly also according to the Qur'an.
-------------------------------------------------
VICTORY, VICTORY TO ISRAEL OVER THE ENEMIES OF G-D
MAY THE UNBELIEVERS AHMADINEJAD, ASSAD AND NASRALLAH SOON BE BEHEADED ON THE SLOPES OF MOUNT ARAFAT NEAR MECCA
copyright © 2006 by Mr. Aryeh Yosef Gallin
www.rb.org.il
Victory to Israel over the Enemies of G-d
"and David said to him [the Amalekite], 'How did you not fear to stretch forth your hand to destroy the Lord's anointed? [Saul, King of ISRAEL]'".
[II Samuel 1:14]
"Then said Samuel: 'Bring you here to me Agag, the King of the Amalekites'. And Agag came to him in chains. And Agag said: 'Surely the bitterness of death is at hand'. And Samuel said: As your sword has made women childless, so shall your mother be childless among women'. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord in GILGAL"'.
[I Samuel, 15:32-33]
"when Gog and Magog are let loose and rush headlong down every hill; when the True Promise nears its fulfillment; the Unbelievers shall stare in amazement, crying: 'Woe betide us! Of this we have been heedless. We have assuredly done wrong'".
[Qur'an, The Prophets, 21:95-96]
May the Unbelievers Ahmadinejad, Assad and Nasrallah soon be beheaded on the slopes of Mount Arafat near Mecca
"When you come running from Arafat, remember G-d".
[Qur'an, The Cow, 2:198]
"and David ran and stood over the Philistine [Goliath], and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off his head therewith".
[I Samuel 17:51]
"By G-d's will they [Israelites] routed them [Philistines]. David slew Goliath, and G-d bestowed on him [David] sovereignty [over the Land of ISRAEL] and wisdom and taught him [David] what He pleased".
[Qur'an, The Cow 2:251]
YERUSHALIYIM, Israelite Tribal Territories of Judah and Benjamin, Kingdom of David and Solomon, United Israelite Kingdom of Judah and Joseph, Yom Chamishi, 16 Av, 5766 (Thursday, August 10, 2006), Root & Branch Information Services - www.rb.org.il:
Contents
1. Victory to Israel over the Enemies of G-d
2. May the Unbelievers Ahmadinejad, Assad and Nasrallah soon be beheaded on the slopes of Mount Arafat near Mecca
3. People Covenant -- The Children of Israel are G-d's Chosen People
4. Torah Covenant -- G-d gave the Children of Israel the Torah
5. Land Covenant -- G-d gave the Children of Israel the Land of Israel
6. David Melech Yisrael (David King of Israel)
7. Acharit HaYamim (End of Days)
************
1. Victory to Israel over the Enemies of G-d
"and David said to him [the Amalekite], 'How did you not fear to stretch forth your hand to destroy the Lord's anointed? [Saul, King of ISRAEL]'".
[II Samuel 1:14]
"Then said Samuel: 'Bring you here to me Agag, the King of the Amalekites'. And Agag came to him in chains.
And Agag said: 'Surely the bitterness of death is at hand'. And Samuel said: As your sword has made women childless, so shall your mother be childless among women'. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord in GILGAL"'.
[I Samuel, 15:32-33]
"I have heard the taunt of MOAB, and the revilings of the Children of AMMON, wherewith they have taunted My People, and spoken boastfully concerning their border. Therefore, as I live, says the Lord of hosts, the G-d of Israel: Surely MOAB shall be as SODOM, and the Children of AMMON as GOMORRAH, even the breeding place of nettles, and salt pits, and a desolation, for ever; the residue of My People shall spoil them, and the remnant of My Nation shall inherit them. This shall they have for their pride, because they have taunted and spoken boastfully against the People of the Lord of hosts. The Lord will be terrible to them; for He will famish all the gods of the earth; then shall all the isles of the nations worship Him, every one from its place".
[Zephaniah 2:8-11]
"I will gather all nations against JERUSALEM to battle..."
[Zechariah 14:2]
"Then shall the Lord go forth and fight against those nations..."
[Zechariah 14:3]
"It is ordained that no community We have destroyed shall ever rise again. But when Gog and Magog are let loose and rush headlong down every hill; when the True Promise nears its fulfillment; the Unbelievers shall stare in amazement, crying: 'Woe betide us! Of this we have been heedless. We have assuredly done wrong'".
[Qur'an, The Prophets, 21:95-96]
"G-d has laid his curse on the Unbelievers and prepared for them a blazing Fire. Abiding there forever, they shall find none to protect or help them. On the day when their heads roll about in the Fire, they shall say: 'Would that we had obeyed G-d and obeyed the Apostle [Muhammed]! And they shall say: 'Lord, we obeyed our masters and our great ones, but they led us away from the right path. Lord, mete out to them a double scourge, lay on them a mighty curse'. Believers, do not behave like those who slandered Moses. G-d cleared him [Moses] of their calumny, and he [Moses] was exalted by G-d".
[Qur'an, The Confederate Tribes, 33:64-71]
************
2. May the Unbelievers Ahmadinejad, Assad and Nasrallah soon be beheaded on the slopes of Mount Arafat near Mecca
"It shall be no offence for you to seek the bounty of your Lord. When you come running from Arafat, remember G-d as you approach the sacred monument. Remember Him who gave you guidance when you were in error. Then go out from the place whence the pilgrims will go out and implore the forgiveness of G-d. G-d is forgiving and merciful. And when you have fulfilled your sacred duties, remember G-d as you remember your forefathers or with deeper reverence".
[Qur'an, The Cow, 2:198-199]
"and David ran and stood over the Philistine [Goliath], and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof,
and slew him, and cut off his head therewith".
[I Samuel 17:51]
"when Saul had crossed the river with those [Israelites] who shared his faith, they said: 'We have no power this day against Goliath and his warriors [Philistines]'. But those of them who believed that they would meet G-d replied: 'Many a small band has, by G-d's grace, vanquished a mighty army. G-d is with those who endure with fortitude'. When they met Goliath and his warriors they cried: 'Lord, fill our hearts with steadfastness. Make us firm of foot and help us against the Unbelievers. By G-d's will they [Israelites] routed them [Philistines]. David slew Goliath, and G-d bestowed on him [David] sovereignty [in the Land of ISRAEL] and wisdom and taught him [David] what He pleased. Had God not defeated some by the might of others, the earth would have been utterly corrupted. But G-d is bountiful to mankind".
[Qur'an, The Cow 2:249-252]
************
3. People Covenant -- The Children of Israel are G-d's Chosen People
"Children of ISRAEL, remember the favor that I [Allah] have bestowed upon you, and that I [Allah] exalted you above the nations".
[Qur'an, The Cow, 2:47]
"G-d made a Covenant with those [Children of ISRAEL] to whom the Scriptures [Tanach/Bible] were given".
[Qur'an, The Imrans, 3:187]
"G-d made a Covenant with the Israelites and raised among them twelve chieftains [Twelve Sons of Jacob/ISRAEL]"
[Qur'an, The Table, 5:12]
"We [Allah] revealed Our will to Moses, saying: 'Set forth with My [Allah's] servants [Children of ISRAEL]".
[Qur'an, Taha, 20:76]
************
4. Torah Covenant -- G-d gave the Children of Israel the Torah
"To Moses We [Allah] gave the Torah".
[Qur'an, The Cow, 2:87]
"We [Allah] have revealed the Torah, in which there is guidance and light. By it the prophets who surrendered themselves judged the Jews, and so did the rabbis and the divines, according to G-d's Book [Torah] which had been committed to their keeping and to which they themselves were witnesses [at MOUNT SINAI]"
[Qur'an, The Table, 5:44]"
"We [Allah] gave Moses the Book [Torah] and made it a guide for the Israelites, saying: 'Take no other guardian than Myself. You [Children of ISRAEL] are the descendants of those whom We carried in the ark with Noah. He was a truly thankful servant".
[Qur'an, The Night Journey, 17:2]
"We [Allah] gave Moses the Book [Torah], so that they [Children of ISRAEL] might be rightly guided".
[Qur'an, The Believers, 25:49]
************
5. Land Covenant -- G-d gave the Children of Israel the Land of Israel
"We [Allah] gave Abraham's descendants [Children of ISRAEL] scriptures [Torah] and prophethood and an illustrious kingdom [of David and Solomon in the Land of ISRAEL]".
[Qur'an, Women, 4:55]
"Bear in mind the words of Moses to his People [Children of ISRAEL]. He said: 'Remember, my People, the favor which G-d has bestowed upon you. He has raised up prophets among you, made you kings, and given you that [Torah] which He has given to no other nation. Enter, my People, the Holy Land [Land of ISRAEL] which G-d has assigned for you. Do not turn back, and thus lose all'".
[Qur'an, The Table, 5:20-21]
"We [Allah] settled the Israelites in a secure land [Land of ISRAEL] and provided them with good things".
[Qur'an, Jonah, 10:93]
"To Moses We [Allah] gave nine clear signs. Ask the Israelites how he [Moses] first appeared among them. Pharaoh said to him: 'Moses, I can see that you are bewitched'. 'You know full well', he [Moses] replied, 'that none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth has revealed these visible signs. Indeed, Pharaoh, I can see that you are doomed'. He [Pharaoh] sought to scare them [Children of ISRAEL] out of the land [of ISRAEL]: but We drowned him [Pharaoh], together with all who were with him [Egyptians]. Then We said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in the land [Land of ISRAEL]. When the Promise of the Hereafter comes to be fulfilled [at the End of Days], We shall assemble you all together [in the Land of Israel]".
[Qur'an, The Night Journey, 17:101-105]
************
6. David Melech Yisrael (David King of Israel)
"We [Allah] have exalted some prophets above others. To David We [Allah] gave the Psalms".
[Qur'an, The Night Journey, 17:55]
"And tell of David and Solomon, how they passed judgement regarding the cornfield in which strayed lambs had grazed by night. We [Allah] gave Solomon insight into the case and bore witness to their judgement. We [Allah] bestowed on both of them wisdom and knowledge and caused the mountains and the birds to join with David in Our praise. All this We [Allah] did. We taught him [David] the armorer's craft, so that you might have protection in your wars. Will you then give thanks? To Solomon We [Allah] subjected the raging wind: it sped at his bidding to the Land [of ISRAEL] which We [Allah] had blessed. We [Allah] had knowledge of all things".
[Qur'an, The Prophets, 21:76-81]
"We [Allah] bestowed knowledge on David and Solomon. The two said: 'Praise be to G-d who has exalted us above many of His believing servants".
[Qur'an, The Ant, 27:14]
"remember Our [Allah's] servant David, who was both a mighty and a penitent man. We [Allah] made the mountains join with him in praise evening and morning, and the birds, too, in all their flocks; all were obedient to him. We made his [David's] kingdom [in the Land of ISRAEL] strong, and gave him wisdom and discriminating judgement".
[Qur'an, Sad, 38:20]
************
7. Acharit HaYamim (End of Days)
"When the True Promise nears its fulfillment, the Unbelievers shall stare in amazement, crying: 'Woe betide us! Of this we have been heedless. We have assuredly done wrong'".
[Qur'an, The Prophets 21:96]
"The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning JUDAH and JERUSALEM. And it shall come to pass in the End of Days, that the mountain of the Lord's House shall be established as the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it. And many people shall go and say: 'Come you, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the House of the G-d of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths'. For out of ZION shall go forth the Torah, and the word of the Lord from JERUSALEM. And He shall judge between the nations and shall decide for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore. O House of Jacob, come you, and let us walk in the light of the Lord".
[Yeshayahu/Isaiah 2:1-5]
Shabbat Shalom from Yerushaliyim,
19 - JustOneMan
more ranting from a relogious fanatic...Must be suffer through this....
Moe begat Larry, who begat Curly who begat Shemp who begat Curly Joe (should have stopped that begatin at Shemp)!
20 - gazelle
#18
This is the Quran affirming that Moses and David were Allah's prophets and the Bani Israel were guided by them, and then they went astray, and there are lessons for humankind in that, and that there are jews who have stayed on the right path pleasing to Allah ...
_____________________
from 'the cow'
O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and be faithful to (your) covenant with Me, I will fulfill (My) covenant with you; and of Me, Me alone, should you be afraid.
"2.41": And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear.
"2.42": And do not mix up the truth with the falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know (it).
"2.43": And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and bow down with those who bow down.
"2.44": What! do you enjoin men to be good and neglect your own souls while you read the Book; have you then no sense?
"2.45": And seek assistance through patience and prayer, and most surely it is a hard thing except for the humble ones,
"2.46": Who know that they shall meet their Lord and that they shall return to Him.
"2.47": O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations.
"2.48": And be on your guard against a day when one soul shall not avail another in the least, neither shall intercession on its behalf be accepted, nor shall any compensation be taken from it, nor shall they be helped.
"2.49": And when We delivered you from Firon's people, who subjected you to severe torment, killing your sons and sparing your women, and in this there was a great trial from your Lord.
"2.50": And when We parted the sea for you, so We saved you and drowned the followers of Firon and you watched by.
"2.51": And when We appointed a time of forty nights with Musa, then you took the calf (for a god) after him and you were unjust.
"2.52": Then We pardoned you after that so that you might give thanks.
"2.53": And when We gave Musa the Book and the distinction that you might walk aright.
"2.54": And when Musa said to his people: O my people! you have surely been unjust to yourselves by taking the calf (for a god), therefore turn to your Creator (penitently), so kill your people, that is best for you with your Creator: so He turned to you (mercifully), for surely He is the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
"2.55": And when you said: O Musa! we will not believe in you until we see Allah manifestly, so the punishment overtook you while you looked on.
"2.56": Then We raised you up after your death that you may give thanks.
"2.57": And We made the clouds to give shade over you and We sent to you manna and quails: Eat of the good things that We have given you; and they did not do Us any harm, but they made their own souls suffer the loss.
"2.58": And when We said: Enter this city, then eat from it a plenteous (food) wherever you wish, and enter the gate making obeisance, and say, forgiveness. We will forgive you your wrongs and give more to those who do good (to others).
"2.59": But those who were unjust changed it for a saying other than that which had been spoken to them, so We sent upon those who were unjust a pestilence from heaven, because they transgressed.
"2.60": And when Musa prayed for drink for his people, We said: Strike the rock with your staff So there gushed from it twelve springs; each tribe knew its drinking place: Eat and drink of the provisions of Allah and do not act corruptly in the land, making mischief.
"2.61": And when you said: O Musa! we cannot bear with one food, therefore pray Lord on our behalf to bring forth for us out of what the earth grows, of its herbs and its cucumbers and its garlic and its lentils and its onions. He said: Will you exchange that which is better for that which is worse? Enter a city, so you will have what you ask for. And abasement and humiliation were brought down upon them, and they became deserving of Allah's wrath; this was so because they disbelieved in the communications of Allah and killed the prophets unjustly; this was so because they disobeyed and exceeded the limits.
"2.62": Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the f Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
"2.63": And when We took a promise from you and lifted the mountain over you: Take hold of the law (Tavrat) We have given you with firmness and bear in mind what is in it, so that you may guard (against evil).
"2.64": Then you turned back after that; so were it not for the grace of Allah and His mercy on you, you would certainly have been among the losers.
"2.65": And certainly you have known those among you who exceeded the limits of the Sabbath, so We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated.
"2.66": So We made them an example to those who witnessed it and those who came after it, and an admonition to those who guard (against evil).
"2.67": And when Musa said to his people: Surely Allah commands you that you should sacrifice a cow; they said: Do you ridicule us? He said: I seek the protection of Allah from being one of the ignorant.
"2.68": They said: Call on your Lord for our sake to make it plain to us what she is. Musa said: He says, Surely she is a cow neither advanced in age nor too young, of middle age between that (and this); do therefore what you are commanded.
"2.69": They said: Call on your Lord for our sake to make it plain to us what her color is. Musa said: He says, Surely she is a yellow cow; her color is intensely yellow, giving delight to the beholders.
"2.70": They said: Call on your Lord for our sake to make it plain to us what she is, for surely to us the cows are all alike, and if Allah please we shall surely be guided aright.
"2.71": Musa said: He says, Surely she is a cow not made submissive that she should plough the land, nor does she irrigate the tilth; sound, without a blemish in her. They said: Now you have brought the truth; so they sacrificed her, though they had not the mind to do (it).
"2.72": And when you killed a man, then you disagreed with respect to that, and Allah was to bring forth that which you were going to hide.
"2.73": So We said: Strike the (dead body) with part of the (Sacrificed cow), thus Allah brings the dead to life, and He shows you His signs so that you may understand.
"2.74": Then your hearts hardened after that, so that they were like rocks, rather worse in hardness; and surely there are some rocks from which streams burst forth, and surely there are some of them which split asunder so water issues out of them, and surely there are some of them which fall down for fear of Allah, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.
"2.75": Do you then hope that they would believe in you, and a party from among them indeed used to hear the Word of Allah, then altered it after they had understood it, and they know (this).
"2.76": And when they meet those who believe they say: We believe, and when they are alone one with another they say: Do you talk to them of what Allah has disclosed to you that they may contend with you by this before your Lord? Do you not then understand?
"2.77": Do they not know that Allah knows what they keep secret and what they make known?
"2.78": And there arc among them illiterates who know not the Book but only lies, and they do but conjecture.
"2.79": Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
"2.80": And they say: Fire shall not touch us but for a few days. Say: Have you received a promise from Allah, then Allah will not fail to perform His promise, or do you speak against Allah what you do not know?
"2.81": Yeal whoever earns evil and his sins beset him on every side, these are the inmates of the fire; in it they shall abide.
"2.82": And (as for) those who believe and do good deeds, these are the dwellers of the garden; in it they shall abide.
"2.83": And when We made a covenant with the children of Israel: You shall not serve any but Allah and (you shall do) good to (your) parents, and to the near of kin and to the orphans and the needy, and you shall speak to men good words and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate. Then you turned back except a few of you and (now too) you turn aside.
"2.84": And when We made a covenant with you: You shall not shed your blood and you shall not turn your people out of your cities; then you gave a promise while you witnessed.
"2.85": Yet you it is who slay your people and turn a party from among you out of their homes, backing each other up against them unlawfully and exceeding the limits; and if they should come to you, as captives you would ransom them -- while their very turning out was unlawful for you. Do you then believe in a part of the Book and disbelieve in the other? What then is the re ward of such among you as do this but disgrace in the life of this world, and on the day of resurrection they shall be sent back to the most grievous chastisement, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.
"2.86": These are they who buy the life of this world for the hereafter, so their chastisement shall not be lightened nor shall they be helped.
"2.87": And most certainly We gave Musa the Book and We sent apostles after him one after another; and We gave Isa, the son of Marium, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit, What! whenever then an apostle came to you with that which your souls did not desire, you were insolent so you called some liars and some you slew.
"2.88": And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief; so little it is that they believe.
"2.89": And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah's curse is on the unbelievers.
"2.90": Evil is that for which they have sold their souls -- that they should deny what Allah has revealed, out of envy that Allah should send down of His grace on whomsoever of His servants He pleases; so they have made themselves deserving of wrath upon wrath, and there is a disgraceful punishment for the unbelievers.
"2.91": And when it is said to them, Believe in what Allah has revealed, they say: We believe in that which was revealed to us; and they deny what is besides that, while it is the truth verifying that which they have. Say: Why then did you kill Allah's Prophets before if you were indeed believers?
"2.92": And most certainly Musa came to you with clear arguments, then you took the calf (for a god) in his absence and you were unjust.
"2.93": And when We made a covenant with you and raised the mountain over you: Take hold of what We have given you with firmness and be obedient. They said: We hear and disobey. And they were made to imbibe (the love of) the calf into their hearts on account of their unbelief Say: Evil is that which your belief bids you if you are believers.
"2.94": Say: If the future abode with Allah is specially for you to the exclusion of the people, then invoke death if you are truthful.
"2.95": And they will never invoke it on account of what their hands have sent before, and Allah knows the unjust.
. . . .
21 - Victor Plenty
Gazelle, I'm just curious. Which verse says Israel has been taken away from the Jews, and that now it has to be called Palestine instead?
It seems both the Torah and the Qur'an agree on the part about God giving Israel to the Jews.
Is there anything in the Qur'an that directly and clearly says God took Israel away from the Jews later on? If so, please help me to understand it.
22 - Dean
And God gave America to the Indians.
23 - Victor Plenty
Are you saying all the palefaces in America should go back to Europe, Dean?
24 - Les Slater
The writers of these documents, were trying to justify historical observations, making up stories, and making predictions (prophecies), to further their side's desires for developmet to proceed as they wished.
They made up their God as they went along.
Arguing that a a particular fictitious entity said that you have a right to a particular piece of real estate should wind one up in the looney bin.
This is about as serious as a Monty Python skit.
25 - Victor Plenty
Brilliant, Les. I'm sure you'll achieve a historic compromise by insulting and dismissing the most deeply held beliefs of both sides in the dispute.
Why didn't anybody think of that before?