Why we should re-think our biases about immigrants.
The idea that the United States is a nation of immigrants has been repeated so often that today it is a cliché.…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
Myth-Busting Florida Report Sheds New Light On Latino Immigration - Comments Page 2
Article comments
26 - Zedd
Nancy,
Although I think it is premature, I think that once a good bill is passed that holds everyone accountable, citizens also should play a part like those of Farmers Branch. Those citizens voted that any landlord who houses illegal aliens will be prosecuted and fined heavily. Those fines should be stiff and certain.
What was interesting to me is that some illegals actually protested in Farmers Branch. Is it me???
27 - Nancy
Someone ought to have been out there with pellet guns peppering the bastards in their nether parts. Illegals have NO rights. Period.
28 - Zedd
Nancy
I know many professionals with expired SS cards, they do pay taxes.
You are probably right about cash paid workers.
I fully agree with you that the focus should be on finding a solution. This has to be fixed. I don't understand the energy being waisted and faining offense when none is required.
The same thing happened with African Americans. A lot of time was waisted denying the truth instead of fixing the problems. While they had every reason to be defensive, it was detrimental to their own people. Lesson learned. Now the younger generation is saying lets just fix things and stop deflecting.
29 - Nancy
Zedd, Ma'am, that won't happen until & unless we first execute or deport all of congress & the white house to boot. Maybe the Pentagon for good measure.
30 - Clavos
Zedd,
One more time:
I'm not trying to present solutions, I am trying to dispel myths about Latino immigrants (legal AND Illegal) which are rooted in racism, and I think I've done that quite successfully.
You say:
The problem is that Hispanic illegal immigrant's kids have the highest drop out rates. Have some of the highest crime rates; have the most rapidly increasing crime statistics; have high teen pregnancy rates.
The fact is, as the FIU report notes:
"A much smaller percentage of the immigrant population is under 16 years of
age (6.3 percent) than is true of non-immigrants (23.8 percent)."
So, the data about their children (where are you getting this data, anyway? You link nothing, so I can only consider it anecdotal) is not even significant, given how few children they have on a per capita basis.
None of that can be quantified by looking at Medicare, Medicaid or any other form of welfare. Your report dealt with none of that and that makes your report null and void.
Medicare is linked to Social Security eligibility. Unless you consider SS as welfare, Medicare is NOT welfare. Medicaid, which is for people below the poverty level, is. My ARTICLE PROVED that immigrants are NOT the burden on taxpayers that you say they are. YOU have NOT proven your point.
Give me a report that looks at Texas or California, the health care costs, school burdens, costs to the criminal justice system (administrative et al) and then tell me how they are contributing more to this country than its own citizens even though they send a great deal of the money back home.
Since Florida actually has a higher percentage of immigrants than Texas, I'm sure Texas' numbers will come out even better for the taxpayers than Florida's, but I have a better idea:
Why don't you write your own annotated and source-linked article for all of us to review and discuss? Put your money where your mouth is Zedd.
31 - Dave Nalle
Illegals have NO rights. Period.
So wrong, and typically over the top, Nancy. Illegals still have basic human rights. Their minor transgression of border law doesn't take those away.
Dave
32 - Nancy
It's doubtful the figures even exist, given the 'invisibility' of illegals anyway, Clavvie. They don't like to own up to being illegal for fear of deportation, so I have my own suspicions where such "statistics" are quoted.
33 - Zedd
Clavos
Are you alright?
Illegal immigration. STAY focused.
Its you who mentioned Medicaid and Medicare. What that has to do will illegal immigration is strange. Why did you bring it up if it had nothing to do with illegals? You were deflecting.
Their cost to us comes in other ways. Ways which I have metioned a billion times and you never addressed. GET IT NOW?
BTW California has the most ILLEGAL aliens then Texas. Not sure what you are talking about re: Florida.
34 - STM
Could all this nonsense be solved through the simple expedient of legislating for English to be used in all official and business transactions, etc, except of course when they are conductied solely among Spanish-speaking people - you can't outlaw anyone's right to speak the language they want between themselves.
Australia, which also has a very large immigrant population, does this mostly, but provides written translations in about 10 different languages, and translator services for all government services and departments, State and federal.
I suspect, however, that the real issue here, despite what some people say, is not really about the use of the Spanish language.
Rather, it's the nationality and skin colour of the immigrants that's the problem, and the perception that they are "un-American".
35 - Clavos
Stan sez:
Australia, which also has a very large immigrant population, does this mostly, but provides written translations in about 10 different languages, and translator services for all government services and departments, State and federal.
This is exactly how it works in the USA, too, Stan.
Rather, it's the nationality and skin colour of the immigrants that's the problem, and the perception that they are "un-American".
Quoted for Truth.
36 - zingzing
i kind of like having things in other languages. i like going into the japanese grocery near my place and seeing all sorts of japanese all over the place, with lovely little english translations on it. i like going abroad and seeing english signs and people who can speak english. i like being able to get around in a foreign place. i like living in a city where you frequently see signs written in chinese, spanish, japanese and english. it's cosmopolitan. it's welcoming to visitors and to newcomers. if you want all english all the time, don't bother living in a real city. go out in the country where you can shoot your guns and toss your unwanted babies into the woods and snear at the "faggots" and the "spics" and all those "damn muslims" you never have to see. lalala.
37 - Zedd
Clav and Stan
Rather, it's the nationality and skin colour of the immigrants that's the problem, and the perception that they are "un-American
Not true. First Clav you know that Hispanics come in all races.
Also, unless you live in Texas or Cali, In cities that are inundated and drastically changed in the past 5yrs, you don't know what you are talking about. We know and respect Mexicans, we don't like what illegal immigration is doing to our society.
It is language among other things. Stan if every teller, customer service person, clerk, receptionist or front desk person HAD to be Japanese because the language issue was so significant, you would be startled.
If they were Russian, we'd still say the same thing.
There are some people who are truly racist and would make comments if only two Mexican illegals entered the boarder. They are idiots and powerless individuals. They will be silenced by the majority.
38 - Zedd
Stan
Illegal aliens are "un-American".
Today I watched a wonderful documentary on the arrival of women to Australia. If it weren't for your contributions on OZ I would have probably passed on it. But since you have wet all of our interests, I was compelled to watch. It was extraordinary. They chronicled some of the passengers of the Lady Juliana. I was glued. Good stuff
39 - STM
Zedd: They sent the extra women on the Juliana to "improve the morals of the colony", ie to promote matrimony and to make it more of a colony rather than just a penal colony. That was the theory, anyway. The Juliana, of course, became a floating brothel (the first of many) - and that was only on the trip over.
The big problem was, they filled the Lady Juliana (and all the many subsequent female transports) with prostitutes, thieves, conwomen and women of general ill-repute.
And thank the Good Lord for that!! It's why all the world loves an Aussie woman ... they tell it like it is, no pussyfooting around.
I still believe Britain's greatest ever mistake was to send all the party people to the best place (sunshine, beer, beautiful beaches, beer, fresh air, wide open spaces and let's not forget beer, either, shall we), whilst the rest of the poor buggers stayed on in that grey, miserable rainy place.
They should have done it the other way around.
40 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
When I was a child in Brooklyn, my mother had a huge (to a ten year old) red and white box of salt on the kitchen table. In Yiddish, in BIG Hebrew letters, it said Diamond Kristal Kosher Zaltz - Diamond Crystal kosher salt. It was one of the ways I learned how to read Yiddish.
As a smaller child in Williamsburg, I saw signs in Yiddish and Spanish. Wherever you look in New York, you see signs in foreign languages, with newspapers in at least 15 languages. The same is true today in Jerusalem.
When I lived in the Midwest, I missed a lot of that international flavor. Life gets awful boring if it all vanilla ice-cream, all in English. And while New Yorkers are provincial, the folks in Saint Paul and Minneapolis seemed infinitely more so to me over the two decades I lived there.
In short, if you live in a country of immigrants, get used to the fact that before they entirely assimilate the local culture, a generation or two must pass. Since America has an open border with a large piece of land that has far fewer opportunities, it is no surprise that Spanish is so important there.
41 - Zedd
STM
What I discovered was just how enterprising the women were. I suppose because many of them were already familiar in "economic exchanges". It seems that they played a major role in the establishment of the new colony.
What I found most compelling is that without the judgement and barriers of the British class system, these individuals, became industrious, law abiding, respectable contributors to society. Actually I suspect that had the first cargoes been filled with upper class women, we wouldn't have an OZ today, at least not in the form that it exists in.
There are so many lessons to be derived from this story. Made me appreciative of your country even more. Beautiful!!
Talk about an immigration story.....
But they were legal immigrants.
42 - Zedd
Ruvy
You are very right about diversity. My Dad came with dreams of a world where anyone can make it and differences are celebrated. While we need to spread that perspective through the entire country, the fact that we do have it is a blessing.
The dilemma has to do with illegal immigration. Its really hard to become a US citizen as it should be. I am grateful that my parents worked towards that end when I was a child. They had to prove what specific benefit they brought to America. After five years of attempts, they were successful.
Its not fair to the rest of the planets inhabitants who dream of America that those who live next door can just walk in and stake their claim, work, not pay taxes (for the most part) and demand rights.
43 - Clavos
More published myth-busting, this time from a study on Latino immigration by the Urban Institute, relating specifically to Arkansas which, according to the Institute, has the fastest growing Latino immigrant population in the USA:
"Economic and Fiscal Effects of Arkansas Immigrants
Arkansas immigrants had an estimated total after-tax income of $2.7 billion in 2004. About 20 percent was sent home to families abroad, saved, or used for interest payments. The remaining spending reverberated throughout the state's economy for a total impact of $2.9 billion, over half of which was concentrated in Benton, Washington, Sebastian, and Pulaski counties.
Immigrants and their children have a small but positive net fiscal effect on the state budget. Some $237 million in 2004 went to immigrant-related education, health services, and corrections. Those costs were offset by direct and indirect tax payments of $257 million, resulting in a net surplus to the state budget.
Immigrant workers contribute substantially to the economic output of the state and to the cost-competitiveness of key industries, the researchers pointed out. For example, without immigrant labor, manufacturing's output would likely be lowered by about $1.4 billion"about 8 percent of the sector's $16.2 billion contribution to the gross state product in 2004."
If enacted as written, the proposed Kennedy/McCain Bill would inevitably deprive Arkansas (and all other states with significant Latino immigrant populations) of this important, economically valuable human resource.
44 - Carole McDonnell
I also wrote a post on blogcritics about the new immigrants.
Mine was basically a little bit conservative and a little bit liberal. It's the black view of the issue.
Basically, I'm a liberal who doesn't mind immigrants coming into the US but I wish that they shared many ideals of equality. Our town which historically has been a very mixed town is presently becoming very Ecuadorean who for some reason can be very prejudiced. They have bought up many houses and run refuse to rent to black people. Many of the businesses where blacks and whites used to work now employ only hispanics because the hispanic people got control of the hiring. It's also sad to see one half of the town -- the newcomers-- treating the other half of the town (the old-timers) like dirt. But that seems to be what happens in many areas. As a black person who is an immigrant I would like many of the new Immigrants if they weren't prejudiced aagainst me or my people. We blacks have suffered a lot and have finally tasted freedom and equality and to have folks coming in and taking over and treating us like dirt...well it just kinda hurts. As my Jewish friend describes it, it's as if a Holocaust survivor has finally found peace in a town and some islamic terrorists have moved next door. One wants to love one's new neighbor, but what does one do if one's new neighbor treats one like dirt? And trust me.. some of the new neighbors have peed on their black neighbor's yard and seem to think that all black women are whores. What do we do with that?
-C
45 - Nancy
Clavvie - is that one of the boats you own?
46 - Zedd
Clav
Was the Arkansas report about Latino illegal immigrants?
47 - Clavos
"About half of Arkansas immigrants are undocumented; most come to the state for work. Like other southern states with large shares of Mexican immigrants, Arkansas has many undocumented immigrants. In 2004"05, 51 percent of Arkansas immigrants were undocumented, compared with 29 percent nationally. In 2000, the employment rate for undocumented men (81 percent) was higher than that for legal immigrant, naturalized citizen, or U.S.-born men."
Full report
48 - Clavos
Nancy,
I'm a broker, I don't own the boats I sell; I provide a service for sellers and buyers, just like a real estate agent, except it's more difficult (and thus pays better), because nobody needs a boat.
I do own one boat of my own that my wife and I lived on for several years until she became wheelchair-bound, but I'm selling it because of that.
We now live in a rental apartment.
49 - STM
"But they were legal immigrants."
Yep, "legal" would be the right word. 30 years' legal. It's very funny when English people rib us about our convict past. We think it's great, and to to be able to trace ancestry back to one of the convict transports is a badge of honour.
My youngest daughter (12) was very upset when she learned there was direct convict line in our family, just marriages to others that have branched off.
Even our current PM and his wife have direct convict lineage - in his case, highly appropriate as he is a robbing, lying bugger.
50 - Howard Dratch
Great article, Clavos. I came in late and am too overwhelmed by some of the responses. A national debate really brings out the worst in some people. Someone actually threatened to "execute" the Congress and, worse, called you "Clavvie". That is really below the belt.
This morning I had a discussion with my velador (guard, bodyguard, gardener and friend) and an albanile (mason). They had heard that men could make $10-15 an hour in the US. I had to agree that was true -- and even more! One chided me for bothering to learn Spanish when I could be speaking Mayan. Language preferences are based on who you speak to.
My grandfather came to Tampa after WWI (legally). He spoke 7 languages -- English being the hardest and his worst. He still contributed to America. And he, too, was harassed by the 110% Americans.
51 - Howard Dratch
Ps. You recall that Pres. Roosevelt once started a speech to the DAR with the line, "My fellow immigrants".
52 - Nancy
I presume to call him "Clavvie" because we are old buds on this website...or at least, I think so. BTW, what does "clavos" mean in Spanish, Clavos?
I'm sorry about the wife needing a wheelchair. If I had access to boats, I think I'd live on a nice, big houseboat, if I could find a good, safe anchorage, altho I suppose in Florida/the hurrican belt that's near impossible to do. That way you never need to mow the [eel]grass. Once I re-learn to balance, I'll be out on the water so fast .... whitewater rafting, too.
As for throwing everyone out, I have no trouble with legal immigrants from ANYWHERE. I like the people from everywhere; it makes life so much more interesting & rich. I love being able to celebrate anything from Eid to Cinco de Maya to St. Patricks Day to Holi (& in this area, w/so many different people, we do!). I love the incredible variety of restaurants, from Afghani to Zimbabwean. I can shop for everything from saris to lutefisk, & it's great.
I DON'T like illegals from ANYWHERE - including England, Canada, or any other northern European source - any more than I dislike them from elsewhere. I don't care if they're black, brown, gold, or white. In fact, the first illegal I ever met was a white Canadian woman, & if I could have I would have sent her home so fast her head would still be spinning. I tried, but the INS ignored me, per Dubya's instructions/policies. NO ONE should be here illegally, for any reason, nor should we be granting amnesty to anyone here illegally, or granting automatic citizenship to their kids born here.
As for First Nations peoples, they're immigrants, too, albeit more established ones. Frankly I always thought it was a shame they didn't just up & massacre every European they encountered, but hindsight is 20-20. However, modern Mexican/Latinos have no more right to be considered FNs than I do, since their geopolitical citizenship is with Mexico, not the US, unless they can somehow demonstrate they stem from locals who have been in the area since before the US Civil War, which I'd pick as about the latest cutoff date as far as immigration status is concerned, since after that point it became more codified, while before it was fairly open, without significant laws.
This is the crux of it: at some point, the laws WERE laid down as to immigration, & the gates WERE closed, & definite parameters as to who was an American & who was not WERE made. Once that point was reached, then things changed. I'm not saying for better or worse, but at that point, it did become a matter of law how one enters this country & stays. As a citizen, I try not to violate the laws, even when I think they're not right. If I don't like them, I should try to get them changed. Laws are NOT for "selective enforcement", as BushCo seems to think. In no case should anyone wanting to settle here do so by violating immigration law, and subsequently other laws involving benefits, taxes, etc.
The bigger scandal, to me, is that US citizens are intent on deliberately & maliciously cheating & violating US laws, both immigration & tax, by hiring & encouraging illegal immigration for their own selfish ends. We should be rigorously enforcing our employment tax laws on scofflaw employers of illegals. That alone, IMO, would send most illegals back where they came from, if these tax-cheating employers dried up because the punishment for employment tax evasion became too stiff.
53 - Clavos
Nancy writes:
I presume to call him "Clavvie" because we are old buds on this website...or at least, I think so. BTW, what does "clavos" mean in Spanish, Clavos?
We are indeed, Nancy, although we don't always agree, we've always respected each others' points of view. "Clavos" means "Nails" in English. It's a nickname bestowed on me during my childhood in Mexico City.
The immigration problem:
First: it's huge. I think everyone can agree on that point.
Second: The distinction of "illegal" is largely a semantic one, IMO. While it is true that many (perhaps half of the nationwide Latino population, according to various government and NGO sources) are "illegal" in the sense that they came here clandestinely and without registering with the government, the problem is largely of our own making:
Twelve million did not arrive overnight. They came, seeking "the American Dream," over a period of many years, even decades. We have not enforced (REALLY enforced) immigration laws for decades; American employers, as you've pointed out, have turned a blind eye and hired them without demanding papers. Again, no (or very little) enforcement for decades.
Hundreds of thousands of Mexicans in the US have actually been here since before the US existed as a country. Most of the city of San Antonio, for example, are Mexicans whose families have been here for several generations, some were here before 1836, when Texas declared its independence from Mexico. Those folks are, if anything, MORE entitled to be here than anyone except Native Americans, and many of them ARE, in fact, descendants of indigenous peoples.
But I digress.
Back to the "illegals:" the genie is out of the bottle. Despite what the rabid nativists insist, deporting 12 million people is NOT a practical (nor humane and in keeping with American principles) solution.
I'm actually more conservative than the government in that I DO NOT think the 12 million should EVER be granted citizenship. Guest worker status, yes.
But the Bill currently before congress screws up even that concept. I believe the period they're allowed to stay should be longer, and at the end, if they can show they are gainfully employed and paying taxes (in other words, productive residents), they should be allowed to extend without the necessity of going home first.
I have a Canadian friend (with green card) who has lived in this country for more than thirty years without being required to go home periodically (though he does, frequently); and why should he?
I favor the guest worker program because I DO believe the vast majority of the 12 million have much potential to contribute positively in exchange for their being allowed to stay with legal status. Again, NOT citizenship.
Before we do ANYTHING, however, THE BORDER NEEDS TO BE SEALED (REALLY sealed). If we don't seal the border, then granting legal staus to those already here amounts to an invitation to the entire world to ALSO come here. This is what happened when we granted amnesty a few years ago without sealing the border.
54 - Clavos
Howard, Thanks for your kind words.
As I explained above, I really don't mind being called Clav or Clavvie, etc., and many folks on BC do have a nickname for my nickname. :>) I think the first to shorten it was Stan Denham, whom I admire greatly, even if he IS one of those strange surfer dudes.
"This morning I had a discussion with my velador (guard, bodyguard, gardener and friend) and an albanile (mason). They had heard that men could make $10-15 an hour in the US. I had to agree that was true -- and even more!"
Uh oh. Should have lied to 'em Howard. Now you'll have to find a new velador AND a new albañil. They're probably already halfway to Texas.
Howard, just for the record: if you know, please tell us how much money those two guys make?
55 - Dr Dreadful
Like your Canadian friend, I also plan on staying here long-term on my green card. I won't be applying for citizenship because US law requires that new citizens must renounce their previous nationality (although in practice, many don't) - something I have no desire to do.
My only beef with the situation is that although I live, work in and pay taxes to the United States, I have no say in how it should be run: I am disenfranchized. However, that's my choice, and it does get me out of jury duty!
The arrangement works for me because the law happens to allow me to do what I want to do in the US. But for these millions of illegal immigrants, it doesn't. That's something Bush's guest worker idea tries to address (about the only thing I agree with him on), even though the way Congress now wants to enact it is half-assed to say the least.
But criminalizing everyone left, right and center out of righteous indignation isn't going to solve anything - any more than that approach is solving the drug 'problem'.