The idea that the United States is a nation of immigrants has been repeated so often that today it is a cliché.
Though it is uncertain when the Americas were first populated (estimates range from 35,000 years ago to 14,000, according to Jared Diamond in his Pulitzer Prize-winning book, Guns, Germs, and Steel), archaeologists and anthropologists agree that North and South America were the last continents to be inhabited. Thus, it can be safely said that we Americans are all immigrants.
The first of today’s United States to host permanent immigrants was the peninsula now known as Florida. Following Ponce De Leon’s first exploration in April, 1513, of the wild land he named Pascua Florida, meaning Feast of Flowers (Easter) in Spanish, the Spaniards first established a colony at Pensacola, which quickly failed.
The first permanent European settlement, San Agustín (later Saint Augustine) did not appear until 1565. The city was founded by the Spanish admiral Pedro Menéndez de Aviles on September 8, 1565. Menéndez first sighted land on August 28, the feast day of Augustine of Hippo, and consequently named the settlement San Agustín; 20 years before the first English settlement at Roanoke Island, in the Virginia Colony (today’s North Carolina). Thus, it can be said that the first immigrant state is Florida.
This early tradition of immigration continues today. Florida is one of the top-ranking states in its rate of immigration and in the assimilation of its immigrant population, offering us an early glimpse into the impact and effects of immigration today, both legal and illegal, on the United States as a whole.
According to a report released this week by Florida International University (FIU) in Miami, and published in The Miami Herald, foreign born residents make up nearly a quarter of Florida’s workforce, and “also receive less public assistance and government healthcare benefits than their native-born neighbors…”
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Doug Hunter
Statistics can say anything you want them to. Was the age of immigrants vs. native born citizens taken into account? Disproportionate numbers of illegals are healthy, working age people who obviously aren't going to consume as many benefits immediately upon arrival.
Also, legal and illegal immigrants were lumped together. It takes money, persistence, and connections for law abiding immigrants to get here and I wouldn't be surprised if those traits don't translate into better education and other indicators of success. Seperate out the illegals and I'd imagine you have quite a different picture.
2 - Arch Conservative
Ummmm ok.
I think that comparing the influx of illegals now with that of the early twentieth century is absolutely ludicrous and I suspect most reasonable people would agree.
There are a lot fo pretty numbers int he article to support a pro illegal immigration standpoint but what the article fails to mention and I think should be a focal point of any discussion on the AMerican immigration situation is the "character" of today's illegal immigrant.
I am sure there are many immigrating here illegally from south of the border who have noble intentions of finding a job, paying taxes, respecting the laws and citizens, and learning to speak English. However there are far, far, far too many who come here only to skirt the law, evade taxes, display nothing but sheer disdain for our LEGAL citizens and our culture and other wise disrespect this nation while sucking off of it's teat.
History doesn't show us the Irish, Italian, German etc..... immigrants in the early 19th century behaving int he way that the current crop does. They did not March in the street and demand to be catered to in their own tongue. They did not routinely engage in disrespectful behavior such as desecrating the American flag while hoisting their own. Instead they made every attempt possible to, while still maintaining their native culture in their own homes, assimiliate into the American society in every possible way once they left the confines of their personal abodes. This really cannot be said of today's ILLEGAL immigrants.
So I see a major part of the debate as a chracter issue. Basically too many of the ILLEGALS coming here now are, for a lack of better wording, worthless scumbags. Maybe the government should devise some kind of test to be applied by the border patrol that singles out the worthless scumbags. "What's that you say? you want to come live in America? OK we're gonna give you a little test here. Oh sorry you didn't pass it.....our results point to the conclusion that you are in fact a worthless scumbag. We're full...please turn around and go back to where you came from."
3 - Maurice
Thanks for a great article, Clavos.
4 - Dave Nalle
I think that comparing the influx of illegals now with that of the early twentieth century is absolutely ludicrous and I suspect most reasonable people would agree.
Then most 'reasonable' people would in fact not be reasonable at all. As Clavos points out in the article, the level of illegal immigration and legal immigration combined is lower today than it has been at most times in our history. There is no 'flood' of illegals, and those who claim that there is are the ones being irrational.
The fact is that the current mania against immigration is entirely the result of a kind of passive racism. Because our current crop of immigrants come from poor backgrounds and have dark colored skin and speak an unpopular language they're seen as more of a threat than other immigrant groups. This is exactly the same reaction which nativists had to immigrant groups from eastern Europe in the early part of this century. They were fine by that point with the Irish and the Gemrans who their grandparents had hated and reviled, but they described the current crop of immigrants as:
Now let me ask you. Do you feel that way about Poles or Italians or Russians today now that it's 3 generations later?
Dave
5 - Dr Dreadful
Well said, Dave, and kudos for neatly upending Arch's hysterical historical perspective.
But I don't think you can really reach Arch. He is committed to fight to the death against all conservative demons, chiefly:
1. Baby butchers;
2. Worthless immigrant scumbags;
3. Evil liberals;
4. Hillary Clinton;
5. Pretty much everyone on this site.
6 - Jerry
Unfortunately the Balkanization is well underway, unwittingly spearheaded by the immigrants themselves. The article indicates that immigrants are making huge efforts to learn English yet all the while proliferating Spanish signs everywhere...some kind of disconnect there.
It is true that previous waves of ethnic groups like the Chinese and Italians have their sections which resemble respective native countries, but the Mexican influence is very far-reaching in comparison.
Lat-Am immigration is beginning to create a self perpetuating society and economy that doesn't necessarily need or want to assimilate, and that is at least an element of the Balkanization process.
7 - Clavos
Thank you all for your comments.
First, I would like to reiterate that the purpose of this article is NOT to argue the the extremely complicated and very controversial problem of what steps should US take to resolve the immigration (in particular, the illegal immigration) problem.
My intent was/is, as stated in the title, to help dispel the popular myths about immigrants (legal AND illegal) which are so prevalent among the native-born population. Aside from the fact that many of these myths border on being racist, they are (as I have pointed out) baseless, and only serve to complicate and obfuscate the discussion of a situation that affects us all.
That said:
Doug, in regard to your point about relative ages of immigrants in the study VS the native-born population, particularly here in Florida, which every one knows is God's Waiting Room, here are two relevant excerpts directly from the report itself:
"Age
• The state’s immigrant population is more heavily working age than is the native born population. A much smaller percentage of the immigrant population is under 16 years of age (6.3 percent) than is true of non-immigrants (23.8 percent).
• Comparing taxes paid to assistance received shows that immigrants in Florida contribute nearly $1,500 per year more than they receive, while non-immigrants contribute about $1,390 more than they receive.
Arch, I agree with you; the "major part of the debate IS a character issue." Obviously, I disagree with your assessment of the immigrants' character, and I think the report backs me up there. Dave has done a fine job of refuting your factual contentions, so I won't go into them.
Maurice, Thank you. I value your opinion, as you know. Nice to hear from you again, BTW.
Dave, nice comment. As always, you get it.
8 - Jerry
Dave -
Who made you Inquisitor of the thoughts and intents of mankind?
"the current mania against immigration is entirely the result of a kind of passive racism."
Oh really. You deligitimize yourself.
Ok, I will define myself as a Nativist according to the first definition in The American Heritage Dictionary: Nativism - 1) "A 19th century political program favoring the interests of native inhabitants over those of immigrants". (any society that doesn't do this will fail).
2) "The doctrine that the mind produces ideas that are not derived from external sources; the doctrine of innate ideas". (your definition of Nativist's? It's all in their heads).
3) "The re-establishment or perpetuation of native cultural traits, especially in opposition to acculturation". (my definition of illegal immigrants)
9 - Zedd
Clavos
We ARE talking about illegals right? Why are we comparing how much we have to pay for illegal aliens compared to American citizens? Why are we having this dialogue? Is it just me?
You have to have a social security number to get social security.....
You have to have legal status to apply for medicare and medicaid.
Illegal aliens don't qualify for food stamps.
Your numbers don't say anything really Clav sorry.
Texas receives $46million from the federal government to HELP off set the emergency room care for illegal aliens. California $71M, Arizona $45M and so on. Why is that Okay with you when Mexico's GDP is fat because of the money that is being taken away from American citizens.
Clav stop waisting your time being disingenuous. You know full well that the real beef is with ILLEGAL immigration and not just immigration. Why don't you focus on working on a bill that will be sensible for Americans and illegals instead of pretending as if we don't have a SERIOUS problem in our hands. Your deflecting puts into question your allegiance to this country in my eyes. You are more concerned with protecting the image of your illegal people today than the quality of future for America.
Also comparing the burden of non citizens to citizens in our society is just weird. Should non citizens costs the nation more??? What was your point?
10 - Dr Dreadful
Nativism - 1) "A 19th century political program favoring the interests of native inhabitants over those of immigrants". (any society that doesn't do this will fail).
Jerry, Jerry, the US is a nation of immigrants, like it or not. There's this tall bronze chick hangs out in New York Harbor who has some ideas about that - you should really go and have a chat with her.
American society isn't failing, it's evolving - by taking the best of what immigrants bring with them and combining it with what's already here.
You have to strike a balance. A society that refuses to take in new blood and ideas from the outside will fail - through stagnation, corruption and collapse.
11 - Clavos
Jerry, here's a comment from Alec on another thread:
Despite all the hysteria over Hispanic immigration, if you take even a cursory glance at Spanish language television, you will find numerous commercials for English language schools. Advertisers wouldn't waste their time if there were no market for this.
12 - Zedd
Jerry
Do you support Native Americans more than you support yourself or others who have immigrated to this country?
If you were educated or even slighly informed (sorry to say), you would be embarrassed to hold the views about immigrants that you do. Its all been done and said in the previous century and nothing horrible happened (except the mafias).
We have gained our greatest scientific achievements from the input of immigrants. What makes us the greatest country in the world is that we get some of the best from all over the world.
If your issue is with illegal immigration then your frustration is understandable but you don't seem to be articulating that position.
13 - Clavos
Zedd writes:
You have to have a social security number to get social security.....
True. Non-citizens are routinely issued SS accounts. What's your point?
You have to have legal status to apply for medicare and medicaid.
Illegal aliens don't qualify for food stamps.
My point (and the point of the report my article is about) is that Latino immigrants (legal AND illegal) are contributing more than they are receiving from the government, and that point is proved.
What's your point?
14 - Jerry
Zedd -
Sorry that I forgot to put "ILLEGAL" in front of immigrant, on my #6 post. Problem solved.
15 - Jerry
Clav & Doc -
Points well taken, now if you can convince about 160 million more citizens (stupid, nativist, racists) you'll be doing good.
16 - zingzing
jerry, i won't say you're a racist, and i won't say you're COMPLETELY stupid... i'll just say you are a fool. what's the point in trying to stop them? we try now, they still come in anyway, right? as flawed as the bill in congress is, it is a step in the right direction. if these people are legal citizens (or at least have work visas), they pay taxes and are documented. they are more likely to assimilate. they won't feel like criminals just for living their lives.
what's the real problem here? do you not want them reaping the benefits of living in america without paying for it? then let them pay for it. or do you think they are all criminals? they ARE all criminals as things stand... so why not be a criminal if you already are? or do you just not like them as a people? too bad on that one.
17 - Clavos
Jerry #15:
Thanks.
I'm trying; that's why I wrote the article.
"Every journey starts with but a single step."
18 - Zedd
Clavos
Lets clarify, I am only discussion illegal aliens.
My point is that the government through us has to offset the expense through various other sources.
You quote sources on government contribution that don't and CANT contain information about illegal's cost.
What about our local taxes going up? What about the numerous subsidies to various entities such as hospitals by THE GOVERNMENT to help with the burden that illegal aliens have put on them.
Your report is not a report at all. Its like writing an article citing the misunderstanding of shopping expenditures that women make by citing their dismal purchases of jock straps (excuse the crudeness) for personal use. We don't use such items so what point does the article make right?
Illegal aliens don't get governmental assistance. What is YOUR point.
19 - Jerry
Zing, I agree with some of what you're saying. The aliens that are here need to be accepted and assimilated, and of course it is impossible to deport 20 million people.
My issues have been, and always will be that uncontrolled illegal immigration is taking a huge toll on citizens in countless ways: America needs to take care of her own first, starting with border security, however that can be done.
Secondly, the immigrants need to be brought quickly into an understanding that being in America is a privilege, not a right. And yes, the assimilation needs to include such things as learning English and appreciation for American values (Constitutional concepts, not corporate greed). This not some magical process affected by free enterprise.
We should be considering such things as what types of skills and education are going to be the best fit for national needs, not just a free-for-all labor force, which much of the business community is fighting for.
Finally, it isn't unreasonable to deport those who don't get with the program. Do you disagree with any of that? If so why?
20 - Clavos
Zedd,
Re-read the article.
In fact, read the report.
You aren't getting the central point, which is that the Latino immigrants including the ILLEGALS, are paying more money into the system than they are costing. That's the third (or fourth) time I've said that (and proved it with HARD data that absolutely DOES include illegals, because the totals are computed based on the total number of immigrants residing in the USA.
They come here to work, Zedd. You think they're going to pay the coyotes the kind of money you yourself point out they pay to draw welfare and free medical care?
Did you look at the data? Most of them are of working age, a demographic that uses very little medical service.
Sigh.
You just don't get it.
21 - zingzing
jerry--well, you are quite a bit more reasonable than i assumed. my fault.
you say: "Finally, it isn't unreasonable to deport those who don't get with the program. Do you disagree with any of that? If so why?"
of course it's not unreasonable to deport those who make no effort to follow the rules, once we actually have some rules in place, and those rules are working. (that could be never.) most of what you have to say (in #19) is perfectly reasonable and i wouldn't argue against it.
22 - Nancy
Actually, Arch, in the 19th & even early 20th centuries, the Irish & Jews were looked on with horror & loathing by the Yankee natives because they DID regularly riot, demonstrate, & demand rights, jobs, housing, decent wages, and/or just plain respect. These barbarians actually proceeded to form PACS that got their own elected to public office. The outrage of it all! In fact the politics of immigrant Irish was so notorious, it even spawned several novels, including O'Connor's immortal "The Last Hurrah". If you saw "Gangs of New York", that was another historically-based reflection of the very NON-passive role now-assimilated immigrants from Ireland & elsewhere played in earlier US history, altho you'd never know it from the way the current discourses are going. I guess it's being conveniently overlooked, but it certainly demonstrates the truism that those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it. Or at least, not to realize that it's all happened before, somewhere else.
That said, I agree that statistics can be twisted in any way you want. A good statsplayer can make those illegals wind up being the main support of the US economy, or it's biggest drain; it all depends on how you twist the numbers. So stats impress me not at all. I once sat thru a demo where a master statsman 'proved' that inflation was caused by blue-eyed blondes. That sort of ruined the numbers game for me from then on.
We DO have to get a handle on the borders. And yes, it's pitiful what some people have to suffer & why they come, but that's just tough: we are no longer a nation of wide open spaces & unlimited resources. Time to close the gates & melt down Lady Liberty, I think, or at least tighten the standards considerably & be ruthless & draconian about booting &/or punishing those discovered sneaking in from now on. Something to the effect of, you come in legally via a work permit, you have a chance of citizenship, provided you're clean; we catch you here w/out papers, you're not only out, you are forever barred of any chance of citizenship, we're confiscating your assets, & the next time we catch you, we're cutting off your legs ... or something like that maybe not so extreme. It goes without saying, anyone w/criminal records here or back home is an automatic no-no. Perhaps we could just drop them off the side of a boat out at the legal sea limit & see if they can swim home? I'm sure their native land wouldn't cry much about their inability to backstroke, either.
Immigrants who are here need to get greater access to English language classes. As I pointed out in another thread, in this area, the few existing classes are jammed, with huge waiting lists, of people willing to get up before dawn & work til long after dark laboring at a language which, frankly, is NOT easy, even for native-born speakers, to learn properly. I have to give a lot of these people credit: they can at least manage basic English, even if it is heavily accented & hard to understand. I can't manage a simple sentence in Spanish/Spanglish, or any other language for that matter, except 'yo quiero Taco Bell', so they have one up on me in that regard. Additionally, the process for naturalization is deeply flawed & still working with 19th century (not even 20th century) techniques, thereby creating huge backlogs of applications for people who DO want to come in legally. It shouldn't take 5- 10- or even 20 years to get citizenship. That's ridiculous & obscene. If Bush & those halfwit maggots in congress would spend half as much time & money to fixing the INS/Naturalization Services as they do to posturing & preening themselves, we'd have no further problems. In this regard, the primary root of the problem is TAX-CHEATING EMPLOYERS, who are basically unpatriotic, greedy, dishonest, & selfish enough to be more than ready to cheat their fellow citizens & the government (not to mention their employees) of their rightful withholding taxes by employing illegals. Alas, this aspect of the problem is unlikely to get fixed, because the biggest tax cheats of all employing massive numbers of illegals are the same corporate slimebags who have the congressmaggots & Presidental maggot firmly in their wallets. Why should these scum have to pay taxes when congress & BushCo are more than willing to let The Public (that's you & me, Bub) foot the bill so they can have fatter profits?
The obvious solution is stringent (& fast) jail time/enforcement/fines against CEOs & management, as well as individual employers or anybody else who gives an illegal a job. And extremely tough penalties for those who import, smuggle, or provide false IDs for illegals. I do think the death penalty isn't too harsh for those scum.
Which brings me to...
...fake IDs. The point was made above, that you can't get benefits if you don't have an ID/SSN. Wassamattayou? Never heard of the booming multibilliondollar business in underground/stolen, or just plain forged/faked SSNs that allow illegals to get all kinds of bennies they aren't entitled to, including entry to the voting booth? Where the hell do you think those come in? To claim illegals aren't a major drain on legit resources because they don't have legit SSNs is stupid, naive, & just plain obtuse. Of course they are, & they do, courtesy of the ID vendors, who steal my or your SSN, change the data a little, & sell it on the street. A major vendor of same was just caught a few weeks ago here in Virginia, with over 10,000 falsified & stolen SSN/ID cards in his possession. They're easy to get, if you're an illegal. Some coyotes even supply them as part of the smuggling fee, or employers supply them to give their illegal employees a start. One of those big corporations was found to have a stash of them in their HR office. Nice, huh?
The point to that is, we'll never be able to stop illegal immigration if our own citizens are greasy enough to be the ones opening the gates, and that starts at the top. Consider how many of our highest officials in past decades have been caught harboring illegals as nannies & other household help. A wannabe presidential candidate as well as a potential supreme court candidate got shot down for that, if I remember correctly.
All said, tho, I think that in the end, if we want to really get anything done to fix this, we have to work at both ends, making it easier to come in for those qualified, while hardening our bleeding hearts against all the hard luck stories out there & getting militant about enforcing the rules. For everybody, not just the illegals. Let's start at the top.
23 - Zedd
Clavos
I get it. You don't think what is going on with illegal immigration is a big deal.
Clavos the point is they CANT receive welfare. I am very sympathetic to illegal immigrants coming here to work. I would do the same thing. However go into any hospital emergency clinic in a major city in Texas or California, do a survey..... While racking up thousands of dollars of emergency room fees and not paying (its impossible because of our system, its high) we pay for it. You saying that they are not as bad as Americans is mute. They are not Americans though. We like every country can and should deal with our poor. Why you would right an article stating that Another country's poor don't cost us tax payers as much as our own, is strange. They shouldn't. They are not Americans.
Also you mixing in Cuban immigrants is just cheating and you know it. You keep mixing illegal immigration and legal immigration to try and make a point which is not a point at all actually.
You know full well that the contention is not legal immigration. Most children of legally immigrated people go to collage and do well. You keep trying to make this an anti Hispanic thing and it is not. I have had many friends and co workers who are from Mexico, being immigrants we would engage in fascinating topical discussions and political matters. Most of our natural born co workers had no clue what we are talking about. So you don't have to do cartwheels trying to convince one of the fact that Hispanics are not inferior. That is not the point here.
The problem is that Hispanic illegal immigrant's kids have the highest drop out rates. Have some of the highest crime rates; have the most rapidly increasing crime statistics; have high teen pregnancy rates. That is problematic and THAT is topic focused. The problem is that our local taxes are going up (mine went up $300 monthly last year) in order to support the burden to the hospital and school system. None of that can be quantified by looking at Medicare, Medicaid or any other form of welfare. Your report dealt with none of that and that makes your report null and void. You didn't discuss the real contention at all. You made up a contention to divert from the real issue.
Give me a report that looks at Texas or California, the health care costs, school burdens, costs to the criminal justice system (administrative et al) and then tell me how they are contributing more to this country than its own citizens even though they send a great deal of the money back home.
Clavos, you DO get it, you just don't want to acknowledge it. Focus on solutions as opposed to excuses. They are illegal. That is not good for them or us. Figure out a way to solve that. You are waisting time with your justifications. Why do you think its useful to do so anyway. It doesn't make you more caring. It just makes you lazy to come up with solutions for this problem.
24 - Lumpy
On fake IDs. The government ought to be encouraging them. They mean the illegal will pay SS taxes, but since the number is fake they'll never get benefits so the miney just goes into the system to benefit those of us who are legal.
25 - Nancy
Lump, it doesn't work that way: with fake IDs, the illegals are able to access bennies, but they DON'T PAY for them, because their employers don't withhold or PAY them, because these people aren't even on the "official" payroll records. They're paid under the table, cash only. So they don't get the withholding taken out, either - but they present the fake ID, they DO get the bennies: welfare, housing, schooling, food stamps, the whole 9 yards. Comprende?