Will the nations of the world stand with Georgia and for freedom, or will Georgia stand and fall alone?
Beset on all sides by hostile nations, surrounded by chaos and terrorism and oppressive regimes, Georgia stands out as a light in a very dark region. It is one of a few young and independent nations in the world which has made a heroic effort to establish representative government and protect the rights of its people at great risk and against overwhelming odds.…
Article comments
26 - Dr Dreadful
Archie, judging by the now-rampant capitalism in Russia, overseen in large part by Putin when he was President, I doubt we'll be seeing the re-raising of Lenin statues there any time soon.
But Russia does dearly wish to be a major world power again. Their history seems, however, to predispose them to attempt this goal through might, rather than (as the wiser Chinese are doing) through economics.
27 - Baronius
Everyone's to blame for this mess, but you have to put most of the blame on Russia, since they're doing most of the escalating. Saakashvili tried to pull a fast one (it seems), moving into South Ossetia. The South Ossetian population are Russian citizens, and he didn't have any right to move in troops. Russia's response was over the top. This was WWI style: look for an excuse to go to war.
Putin reportedly went to the front lines to direct the Russian operation. In what capacity, and with what constitutional authority, is anyone's guess. It probably never occurred to him.
Russia isn't going to try to take on Islam, so the Muslim FSU countries are safe for now. Ukraine and Armenia have got to be nervous. Armenia's a little further away, and has been non-confrontational with Russia. Ukraine's too big. Neither of them is an immediate target. Georgia's just the right size, and they gave Russia an excuse. Russia's just been itching for a fight.
I don't think it's about the hammer and sickle, particularly. Russia has always been expansionist, since the 900's. There's a new book out, I don't know much about, called "The Return of History" or something. Its theme is that Russia, China, and the US are returning to their Cold War rivarly. It's not driven by any particular ideology this time.
28 - Franco
Russia - Same game different year.
The year 1994
One of the main goals of the Russian attack on Chechnya in December of 1994 was to ensure control of the oil pipeline, which runs from Baku, via Grozny, the Chechen capital, to the Russian city of Tikhoretsk. The pipeline ends at the Russian Black Sea port of Novorossiysk, designed by Russia to be the terminal for the proposed Kazakh and Azerbaijani pipelines. Quick Guide: The Chechen conflict
The Year 1996
Another conflict affecting potential oil routes is occurring in the Caucasus republic of Georgia. Russia wants to prevent oil from Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan from going the 'Western' route through Georgia to Turkey.
Moscow's support of civil strife in Georgia is directly connected to its goal of perpetuating conflict in the Caucasus....
Another dangerous conflict is smoldering in Abkhazia, a breakaway region in Georgia. The bitter war in Abkhazia, which began in 1992, has claimed over 35,000 lives. It was precipitated by the Russian military backing the Abkhaz separatist minority against the Georgian government in Tbilisi.
One purpose of the Russian intervention was to weaken Georgia and curb Turkish and Western influence in the region. But more important was the Russian goal of controlling access to oil. By acting as it did, Russia gained de facto control over the long Black Sea coastline in Abkhazia.
Moscow also was protecting the Russian Black Sea ports of Novorossiysk and Tuapse and moving closer to the Georgian oil exporting ports in Poti, Supsa, and Batumi.
In August 1995, Georgia's beleaguered President Shevardnadze agreed to place four Russian military bases on Georgian soil, thus assuring Russia's control of the oil exporting routes via the Black Sea coast.....The conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh is important because of the immense oil reserves controlled by Azerbaijan.
Since the late 19th century, the oil in Azerbaijan has played a key role in the economies of the Russian empire and the Soviet Union, as well as in the global energy market.
The struggle to reestablish a Russian sphere of influence in the Caucasus and Central Asia started in early 1992. While not a full-scale war, this struggle employs a broad spectrum of military, covert, diplomatic, and economic measures. The southern tier of the former Soviet Union is a zone of feverish Russian activity aimed at tightening Moscow's grip in the aftermath of the Soviet collapse.
The entire southern rim of Russia is a turbulent frontier, a highly unstable environment in which metropolitan civilian and military elites, local players, and mid-level officers and bureaucrats drive the process of Russian reintegration.
Control of the Caucasus and Central Asia would allow Russia geographical proximity to, and closer cooperation with, the anti-Western regimes in Tehran and Baghdad. Together, an anti-Western Russia, Iran, and Iraq, if they desired, could pursue a common interest in driving up the price of oil...."
From: The Heritage Foundation. 25 January 1996
29 - Clavos
Together, an anti-Western Russia, Iran, and Iraq, if they desired, could pursue a common interest in driving up the price of oil...."
The thought of the Ivans controlling the Strait of Hormuz (even indirectly, through Iran) is not a pleasant one...
30 - Franco
No, it is not a pleasant one.
So seeing that this analisys is from 1996, 12 years ago (as the artical refers to Iraq when Saddam was in power) surly this had to one of the factors in going into the 2003 invation.
31 - Les Slater
Georgia AND the U.S. miscalculated. The U.S. will bear more pain and discredit than Russia in the aftermath of these events.
32 - Dave Nalle
The US involvement in the Georgia situation was very limited and we said and did the right things afterwards. The European nations actually did step up and do a pretty good job too.
If the truth is allowed to get out and be presented in the media - which seems very unlikely - then Russia will be deservedly painted as the villain. They were the aggressors. They instigated the entire situation and then prosecuted unprovoked war against the Georgians far beyond the point where they should have listened to world outcry and stopped. The Georgians were trying to negotiate a cease fire and settlement from the moment the Russians violated their territory and the Russians just ignored them until France and Germany got directly involved.
We're all at fault if we let Russia come out of this looking like anything but the wosts of villains.
Dave
33 - Les Slater
Dave,
“If the truth is allowed to get out and be presented in the media - which seems very unlikely - then Russia will be deservedly painted as the villain.”
As I read, and parse, the above, I see implied that you don’t really think that the version of ‘truth’ you ascribe to is likely to be dominant and Russia will not be successfully ‘painted as the villain’. Of course it will be, and has already been, in some circles. Not that I’m a fan of Russia or its leadership, but what Russia did in this case was, for the most part, within its rights.
People will remember, and/or will be reminded, that the U.S. championed Georgia becoming a member of NATO. What do you suppose would happen if Georgia WERE a member of NATO when they tried to reincorporate South Ossetia by force? Germany and others precisely saw this danger and helped defeat Georgia’s application. Similarly for the Ukraine.
Don’t think it was the intention of Georgia to reincorporate by force? Georgia reincorporated Ajaria in 2004 and the upper Kodori Gorge 2006. These were both weak and offered little resistance. Even with increasing warnings from Russia, Mikhail Saakashvili’s National Movement " Democrats party kept reintegration as a central plank.
The Ajaria and the upper Kodori Gorge experiences encouraged Saakashvili and the U.S. aid, second in per capita only to Israel, and the NATO sponsorship embolded him. A statement from the Georgian government explained last Thursday’s incursion as an operation to protect Georgian enclaves and to expel illegal troops. To expel illegal troops! What was he thinking?
What do you think Mikhail Saakashvili’s credibility is now in Georgia? He may get some sympathy for a while, but it will wear off. He not only did not deliver but got bloodied up in the process. Reincorporation is off the agenda.
Les
34 - STM
Dave writes: "The European nations have dramatically failed to live up to their responsibilities in the War on Terror."
With one notable exception Dave: the Poms. They have put a very considerable portion of their military resources into it and their security services have also led the way in the international tracking of terror groups.
Back to Georgia: Part of the problem here is that the Russians are paranoid about US meddling in the region, and in particular they are bummed off at the US over its plans for a missile defence shield operation based in Poland and the Cezech Republic and ostensibly aimed at rogue states - in other words, Iran.
The Russians, however, think the shield is really aimed at them (although given the size of the Russian missile force, it'd be like trying to catch smoke in a net).
They are mighty paranoid right now under Putin, and to be honest, sending Georgian troops into South Ossetia was about the stupidest thing the Georgians could have done under the current circumstances, especially in view of Georgia's noises about joining NATO.
You wouldn't have to be a rocket scientist to work out that the Russians would respond by swatting a fly with a sledgehammer.
So the invasion serves two purposes ... the other one being a slap in the face for an otherwise occupied US. Putin's no fool ... he knew Bush would be powerless to act.
And believe me, the Russians are intent on standing up to the imaginary threat of the US.
This is where the real danger to world peace lies right now, not in the middle-east.
35 - STM
Arch writes: "Is there anyone who doubts Putin's burning desire to once again raise the hammer and sickle?"
Yes, I do, and anyone who knows what's really going on in Russia will doubt it too ... plus, he's a former KGB man and as such, has no interest in a real socialist state.
What you are getting in Russia right now is rabid nationalism not that far removed from the internal right-wing foment that led to the rise of Nazi Germany, and it's being condoned and encouraged by the state.
There won't be a return to Soviet-style socialism - but fascism is a huge chance, which is probably even more of a worry given its ideology of race hatred and its desire for "revenge" over the perceived slights by the west against the new Russian state.
36 - Dave Nalle
People will remember, and/or will be reminded, that the U.S. championed Georgia becoming a member of NATO. What do you suppose would happen if Georgia WERE a member of NATO when they tried to reincorporate South Ossetia by force?
I wouldn't know, since all of the evidence suggests that this is not what happened.
Germany and others precisely saw this danger and helped defeat Georgia's application. Similarly for the Ukraine.
So Germany caved to Russian pressure? The fact that Germany is weak and stupid does not make Russia's behavior acceptable.
Don't think it was the intention of Georgia to reincorporate by force? Georgia reincorporated Ajaria in 2004 and the upper Kodori Gorge 2006. These were both weak and offered little resistance. Even with increasing warnings from Russia, Mikhail Saakashvili's National Movement - Democrats party kept reintegration as a central plank.
You do understand that these are areas which are and have been legally part of Georgia, right? And your 'reincorporation' in the cases you mention amounted to a joint occupation agreement with Russia which left those areas autonomous and self-governing.
The Ajaria and the upper Kodori Gorge experiences encouraged Saakashvili and the U.S. aid, second in per capita only to Israel, and the NATO sponsorship embolded him. A statement from the Georgian government explained last Thursday's incursion as an operation to protect Georgian enclaves and to expel illegal troops. To expel illegal troops! What was he thinking?
As confirmed by local observers he was thinking that Russia was trying to seize South Ossetia by force by moving in large numbers of troops, which is what he responded to. Russia violated the joint peacekeeping agreement, not Georgia.
What do you think Mikhail Saakashvili's credibility is now in Georgia?
Where do you get this from? Last I heard he had phenomenal approval from the public.
He may get some sympathy for a while, but it will wear off. He not only did not deliver but got bloodied up in the process. Reincorporation is off the agenda.
You don't seem to be in touch with reality here. Russia didn't defend S. Ossetia. It launched a two-pronged invasion of Georgia and seized almost half the country while Georgia was merely trying to protect its citizens in areas where local authorities had previously engaged in ethnic cleansing against Georgians.
Dave
37 - Les Slater
I said, "He not only did not deliver but got bloodied up in the process. Reincorporation is off the agenda."
Dave says, "You don't seem to be in touch with reality here. Russia didn't defend S. Ossetia. It launched a two-pronged invasion of Georgia and seized almost half the country while Georgia was merely trying to protect its citizens in areas where local authorities had previously engaged in ethnic cleansing against Georgians."
The majority of South Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia. The incursion with U.S. and Israeli advisors was DEFEATED. There will be NO FURTHER attempts.
38 - Dave Nalle
By the 'incursion' you mean the attempt to evacuate Georgian nationals in the face of a Russian invasion, right?
Dave
39 - Les Slater
"By the 'incursion' you mean the attempt to evacuate Georgian nationals in the face of a Russian invasion, right?"
You seem to suffer from a temporal dyslexia. On Thursday there were Russian 'peacekeepers', in any case they were not crack soldiers, as was admitted today by the Georgian government. They had been there for years. It was no invasion. It was the Georgian government troops that went blazing in with U.S. and Israeli advisors. It was AFTER that incursion by Georgia that Russia sent in their troops.
40 - Dave Nalle
No Les. Read something other than CNN's reports. Georgians went in AFTER additional Russian troops entered S. Ossetia, troops which had been massing on the border for days and who were also accompanied by paratroopers. By the time Georgian troops got into S. Ossetia local militias had already destroyed two Georgian villages with Russian support.
Dave
41 - STM
Bollocks. The Russians responded with a full-scale invasion. They've also been bombing the shit out of other towns in Georgia, including Poti, the Black Sea oil and gas port that serves as a hub for energy sources from the Caspian Sea.
South Ossetia is part of Georgia anyway, so you can hardly blame the Georgians for wanting it back from the insurgents there who are supplied and armed by the Russians.
42 - Dave Nalle
And let's not forget that Ossetians only made up a bit more than half of the population of S. Ossetia 20 years ago before they started persecuting other ethnic groups and driving them out of the area. Something like 20,000 ethnic Georgians have relocated out of Ossetia during this period.
dave
43 - Hail to the cheese
My neighbor is a Georgian and last month a mob of his relatives from that euroshithole stayed with him for two long, loud annoying weeks. I just hope this move by Russian defense forces doesn't have those jerks scurrying back next door. If that happens I'll send a strongly worded letter to Putin that he'll never forget.
44 - Dr Dreadful
A bunch of my neighbors also insist on having frequent, loud, drunken get-togethers on their back patio at two in the morning.
The nationality of my neighbors? American.
Perhaps while you've got your word processor up, you'd care to send a strongly-worded letter to President Bush about them too.
Cheese, I do hope your comment was intended to be satirical, because otherwise it's just plain moronic.
45 - Dave Nalle
To be fair, the Georgians are notable for being the only people on earth who drink more than the Finns and the Russians. At least they have a better climate for passing out in the streets. Have you ever seen the figures on how many Russians pass out drunk and freeze to death on the streets?
Dave
46 - Pablo
Another side to the Russia/Georgia conflict that you wont get from Davey boy.
Another Side of the Story
47 - Dave Nalle
Thanks for straightening things out for us, Pablo. Now that you've openly declared your allegiance with the neo-nazis at TBRNews, we can stop taking you even a tiny bit seriously.
Dave
48 - Pablo
Dave,
I never said that I subscribed to said website, only to present another option to your tunnelvision.
49 - Pablo
By the way Davey boy, IF I subscribe to a particular point of view, as you well know, I am the first to advocate it, and say why, the fact that I point out a differing view, is simply that, pointing. I am not now, nor have I ever been a proponent of national socialism, in particular the most virulent form of it nazism.
As I am not well versed in the politics of Russia or Georgia, I have refrained from commenting. I do know however Davey that you are the expert on EVERYTHING of a political nature, not to mention have been everywhere, which makes you even more of an expert (cough), so I have refrained from commenting about it. However I ASSUMED, probably rightfully so, that whatever side of the issue you were on, was the wrong one! hehehe
Yes your are cute Dave.
I was bored the other night, and made the mistake of tuning in your lonely broadast. You not only enjoy thoroughly enjoy reading your own pontifications, but your obviously infatuated with your voice too!
I got a big kick out of you proclaiming what a huge political site that you are an editor of. As you know I check the politics section usually on a daily basis. Given that we are in a political season, and the masses are hungry for politics. I find your reference to blogcritics.org/politics to be such a huge site, to be a joke.
Aside from your minions, and the other regulars on here, there are about 5-10 people who leave comments on a daily basis. Out of a country of over 300 million some odd souls, and the internet being as huge as it is, I find your claim about this sites success as a political forum as being a joke bubba.
Just my two sense worth Davey boy.
50 - Pablo
Dave,
Indulge me if you will bubba. On the subject of Nazis. I have on numerous occasions cited a Mr. Dave Emory, who I have been listening to for the last 25 years, who is an ardent anti-facist, and delves deeply into this subject for those that are interested. You of course with your blinders on, I am quite sure have never checked him out.
I have also cited numerous times the connections between the Muslim Brotherhood and Nazis, again something you obviously are not educated on. I am quite familiar with Operation Paperclip, Reinhard Ghelen, Martin Bormann, and Odessa. Are you Bucko? Sure you are.
Let me state for the record, so that next time that I choose to point to another source of a story, that you do not make the mistake of thinking that I endorse it, to state categorically that I hate Nazis. I believe in human freedom, nazis don't, I believe in being color blind, nazis dont, I believe in liberty, nazis dont, and I believe in the supreme sovereignty of the individual, nazis dont.
You are the one Davey, that has no compunction about installing and maintaining tin pot dictators as long as they subscribe to the current Junta's foreign policy. You are the one that will take a good man like Ron Paul, and do everything in your power to smear him, the same goes with Alex Jones.
In fact you do not want political dialogue at all, what you do want is to denigrate, those that disagree with your political philosophy, instead of engaging in a civilized manner.
I am still waiting for you to call up Jones on the radio show bucko. Show us your stuff Davey. You can smear, as in the dumb video that you linked to, in your Jones piece, to someone that is not connected in any way whatsoever to him, instead of engaging Jones himself. Did you catch the chief of police from Austin on his show yesterday bubba?
So you did the same thing to me, made the assumption that because I pointed so a link, that I endorsed it, perhaps you might ask me in the future, instead of smearing me with the label of nazi lover, dont ya think bucko? I do.
51 - Pablo
What I did find interesting, again I am not well versed enough in the Russia/Georgia conflict, in the url that I pointed to was 3 articles, two from the Guardian, and one from the NY Times. I have never seen the TBR site before, hence I had no knowledge of their leanings. I do find the articles highly interesting however and completely at odd with Davey boy's all knowing opinion on the subject.