Many of the attackers hit their targets and escaped before local police could respond, but attackers at the Oberoi-Trident and Taj Mahal hotels and at the Chabad Lubevitch center took hostages and held out for more than a day before they were rooted out. After the recapture of the two hotels and other locations where hostages were being held, the death toll had risen to 119 with another 300 wounded. The final holdouts were at the Chabad Lubevitch Jewish Center, which was liberated early Friday morning. Also on Friday morning, Indian naval authorities seized two Pakistani ships which are believed to have delivered the terrorists to Mumbai.
Although these attacks differ greatly in technique from the large-scale truck bombings which have rocked Mumbai in the past, they are still likely to be the work of al Qaeda and associated groups, which are known to change strategies periodically so as to take local defenders off guard. The assault on Mumbai has all of the earmarks that are coming to identify 21st century terrorism. The scope was ambitious, the participants were part of the international terror community rather than just locals, and there was a clear connection to Pakistan, which has become the nexus for terrorism worldwide.
Here in Fortress America we may be able to sit back and dismiss the ongoing worldwide threat which these attacks represent. Much of the rest of the world doesn't have that luxury, however. Too many nations have porous borders and substantial Muslim populations ripe for radicalization. They can't ignore the growing threat, and we do so at our peril. These foreign attacks already threaten American citizens and business interests in countries like India where we are very heavily involved commercially. Despite our geographic, demographic and security advantages, it is inevitable that terrorists as resourceful and determined as those who launched this attack will find a way to bring their cause to our shores. How well prepared will we be when most of us aren't paying attention?
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Glenn Contrarian
In the other topic, Dave, you said reports claimed the attackers were 'fair-skinned and fair-HAIRED'. I'll assume that was a typo on your part.
Videos showed at least some of the attackers were dark-skinned and dark-haired. But what may be of more interest is, this from Newsweek:
"Around 8:30 p.m. on Wednesday, a band of 10 young armed militants zoomed up to a fishermen's colony in Colaba, on the Mumbai waterfront, in inflatable Zodiac speedboats. Locals confronted them: unlike the dark-skinned Mumbai fishermen, who speak only Marathi, the regional dialect, the intruders were young, tall and fair-skinned and spoke Urdu with a northern accent."
And this from the Wikipedia:
"Urdu is the national language of Pakistan and an officially recognized regional language of India. It is also an official language in the Indian states of Andhra Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, National Capital Territory of Delhi, and Uttar Pradesh."
In other words, while al-Qaeda DOES operate from northern Pakistan and probably from Kashmir, there is as yet NO EVIDENCE that they are in any way connected to al-Qaeda...yet you - like so many others - have no problem in making that ASSUMPTION.
Dave, maybe they ARE affiliated with al-Qaeda...but if there is no proof, and if such is NOT the case, then our response (and the responses of those we influence) may be completely wrong.
It could just as easily be an attack planned by the Pakistani military and/or intelligence service in order to harm their longtime enemy India...and al-Qaeda provides an easy target to lay the blame upon.
IN OTHER WORDS, Dave, assumptions are dangerous things to make...just like certain assumptions that a certain president made about the supposed presence of WMDs inside Iraq.
2 - Dave Nalle
In the other topic, Dave, you said reports claimed the attackers were 'fair-skinned and fair-HAIRED'. I'll assume that was a typo on your part.
Or a typo on the part of the BBC which was reporting the eyewitness accounts, including one linked to in the article where an Iraqi tourist identifies one of the gunmen as 'blonde'. And just for the record, there ARE fair-haired Afghans and northern Pakistanis, not to mention Chechens and various other Muslim groups who have light skin and relatively fair hair.
In other words, while al-Qaeda DOES operate from northern Pakistan and probably from Kashmir, there is as yet NO EVIDENCE that they are in any way connected to al-Qaeda...yet you - like so many others - have no problem in making that ASSUMPTION.
You mean like when I wrote "There is as yet no absolute indication that al Qaeda was involved?" Which I'd say makes it awfully damned clear that I didn't assume al Qaeda was involved. Or perhaps later in the article when I talk about widespread terror networks which aren't necessarily part of al Qaeda?
Perhaps you should read the actual article before going off on me like an ass.
It could just as easily be an attack planned by the Pakistani military and/or intelligence service in order to harm their longtime enemy India...and al-Qaeda provides an easy target to lay the blame upon.
You make the amusing assumption that there is a clear line that can be drawn between the Pakistani intelligence service and al Qaeda.
IN OTHER WORDS, Dave, assumptions are dangerous things to make...just like certain assumptions that a certain president made about the supposed presence of MWD's inside Iraq.
And like the assumption that you read certain things in the article which I did not in fact write? Or the assumption that I misquoted or misunderstood the articles I link to?
Dave
3 - Christopher Rose
Dave, I've just looked at all the BBC reports you linked to and none of them are reporting that the attackers were fair-skinned or fair-haired. Apart from you, I've not seen any other claims to that so do you have anything else to substantiate your statement?
4 - Ruvy
Although these attacks differ greatly in technique from the large-scale truck bombings which have rocked Mumbai in the past, they are still likely to be the work of al Qaeda and associated groups, which are known to change strategies periodically so as to take local defenders off guard. The assault on Mumbai has all of the earmarks that are coming to identify 21st century terrorism. The scope was ambitious, the participants were part of the international terror community rather than just locals, and there was a clear connection to Pakistan, which has become the nexus for terrorism worldwide.
Here in Fortress America we may be able to sit back and dismiss the ongoing worldwide threat which these attacks represent. Much of the rest of the world doesn't have that luxury, however. Too many nations have porous borders and substantial Muslim populations ripe for radicalization. They can't ignore the growing threat,...
For understandable reasons, I've been following these events at Mumbai rather closely. Not only the fate of Rabbi and Rebbetzin Holtzberg are of concern; there is the nature of the attack on the city.
This was a well coördinated guerilla attack on a major municipal center which DID NOT have as its goal the mere murder of civilians. And, as anyone watching the live feed from India can see, it has been rather successful in its apparent goal - the seizure of specifically targeted foreigners as hostages for the purpose of having bargaining chips over an internal matter.
The details of the matter, Kashmir, are of little importance to those who do not live in the region of the Indian sub-continent, or who are not Desis themselves; but the concept of the attack, and its apparent success (success is not measured in "victories" here but in tying down the enemy [Indian] forces) means that we can expect to see it copied elsewhere in the world. Israel is most assuredly a possible target of such a well-coördinated attack. So is the United States, particularly an inland port. Seaports are just too obvious as targets.
It is very important to remember that this is not an attack with the intent to murder civilians. Had this been true, thousands of dead would have been already reported, and there would be no issue of a missing rabbi and rebbetzin, for example....
5 - Mark Eden
You fools need to leave Dave alone. This is an opinion piece , and, according to BC standards, he is free to extrapolate from and interpret his gathered facts as he sees fit.
Mark
6 - Aaman
Dave, a writer at Desicritics noted the effect on America from this terrible event,
7 - Glenn Contrarian
Dave -
Did I 'come off on you like an ass'?
You DID say, "There is as yet no absolute indication that al Qaeda was involved"
But you ALSO said "Although these attacks differ greatly in technique from the large-scale truck bombings which have rocked Mumbai in the past, they are still likely to be the work of al Qaeda and associated groups, which are known to change strategies periodically so as to take local defenders off guard."
Looking at the two statements, while you did NOT say that it was certainly al-Qaeda's work, you certainly DID imply that al-Qaeda's the prime suspect.
BUT that doesn't excuse my accusation of you. I did go off half-cocked on you and I should not have. I'm not afraid of being wrong - I'm afraid of not having the courage to admit when I am wrong. I apologize, and I'll try to be more careful next time.
8 - Dave Nalle
Chris, the bbc has an article which includes quotes from two eyewitnesses. Pappu Mishra at the train station identified the attackers as 'fair skinned' and Iraqi national Gaffar Abdul Amir identified the attackers at the Leopold Cafe as 'foreign looking' and one as 'blonde'.
But the skin and hair color of the attackers is hardly the point, except as I noted it in the article to point out that the attackers were likely from a widespread network of professional terrorists, not just Kashmiris. The only people making more of it than that are crazies like Alex Jones who is convinced the US and the Brits attacked Mumbai as a false-flag attack, possibly so that Bush can seize permanent power here in the US, or whatever craziness infests the rat nests they call brains.
And Ruvy, I don't see that much bargaining has gone on for the hostages, but we're getting conflicting reports right now. Last night reports were saying that both hotels and the Jewish centre had been recaptured, but today there are new reports which have them still in terrorist hands. The BBC is offering periodic updates.
And I think Aaman's Desicritics poster has certainly hit the nail onm the head with his observations. Tagetting westerners is the best way to get attention for your cause wherever you happen to be.
Dave
9 - Dave Nalle
Looking at the two statements, while you did NOT say that it was certainly al-Qaeda's work, you certainly DID imply that al-Qaeda's the prime suspect.
Or specifically "al Qaeda associated groups" which describes many members of the increasingly widespread network of terrorists who associate themselves with and draw on the techniques and resources of al Qaeda. And most observers are pointing the finger at Pakistan and al Qaeda until a more specific suspect is identified.
Dave
10 - Zedd
Your article is important. However I think that our obsession with the notion of "terror" or "terrorism" distorts the reality of how all humanity uses violence as a means of control. The multitudes that we have caused to be killed in Iraq are no less dead. Their relatives are not less bereaved. Their entire society has been terrorized.
It's more important to focus on the causes of "terroristic" behavior, fair skinned, dark skinned, red white and blue or otherwise, then stamp it out.
11 - Deano
Can you bottle up your incessent sniping...?
So far there are several candidates being touted as responsible for the attacks:
Deccan Muhajadeen - This hitherto unknown group has claimed responsibility for the attacks. They claim to be Indian, but there is no tangible information on whether this is a new group, a new name for an existing group or just a false front.
Indian Mujahideen - Believed to be a mostly Indian-based movement though having some Pakistani support. They are believed responsible for serial bombings in Bangalore, Jaipur, Delhi and other locations.
The Students Islamic Movement of India - now believed to be operating as the Indian Mujahideen.
Lashkar-e-Taiba - This is a Pakistani-based Islamic terrorist organziation with an objective to end indian control over Kashmir. Known for well-planned, well-exeucted attacks (often targeting non-Muslim civilians. They have some reported ties to Al Quaeda but are a distinctly different organization and independent of Al Quaeda. They are currently denying any involvement in the current Mumbai attacks but have certainly been highly active in previous terror activities.
Jaish-e-Mohammed - also based in Pakistan, also involved in Kashmir, they are a split of from Harkat-ul-Mujahideen- al-Islami (another similar group). Mainly based in Kashmir activities.
Then there are various factions and splinter groups. There are a multitude of reports claiming that the attackers spoke Urdu and Hindi, and other reports that they spoke Urdu with a distintive Kashmir accent, and that they were in touch via telephone with someone in Karachi, Pakistan.
Most of this is mostly pure speculation thrown out with a lack of evidence. To tie this back to Al Quaeda at this point is probably wrong, high speculative, specious and simplistic.
12 - Clavos
But, I notice all the suspect groups ARE muslims.
13 - Deano
(sigh). Yes Clavos.
152-million people in India are Muslim.
And right next door, there are another 172-million people in Pakistan who are (shocked gasp) also Muslim. And then Afghanistan has another 30-million, Bandladesh has about 125-million as well. It is the demographic.
So bluntly - what's your point? You were expecting Mormans? Typically in India, your terrorist organizations generally fall into two categories - religious, comprising Islamic, Hindu nationalists or Sikh; or political independence/ irredentist movements, which often overlap the religious categories. Why is this a shocking fact of significance to anyone?
14 - Heloise
Dave two things: I've lived in India and made more than one trip there to the north only. Just heard that one of the dead is an American traveling to learn more about meditation out of Virginia. She was with a group. I actually traveled there alone and met up with people.
One point IMO you should not try to analyze the situation based on the skin color of Indians...you have no clue there. And whomever said that has no clue. Indians are as diverse looking as blacks here in America. The only difference is that we are black, but both get called "Nigger" true dat.
Anyway, the north is "white" while the Dravidians of the south are "black" that includes the Tamils as in Tamil separatist.
The Kashmiris are more likely to be fair than dark, but due to the intermarriage in India the people I saw there, I kid you not, I actually took pictures of some and brought them home to family members and it was a "jaw-dropping moment" they could not believe how identical they looked like members of my family and friends in Chicago and people in India. But of course we are black (only in America) and they are white.
So, no one has mentioned the Tamil separatist but they are a group who speak Tamil, not an Indo-European language, they are not white and they want their own land. They could be one of the culprits too, they would probably NOT be light skinned though IMHO.
The second point I'd like you to address...home-grown terrorism. A perfect example of elements before my first trip to India there was the massacre at a Jewish school in California and the stuff going on in the Punjab at the time a la killing and bombings.
So, the question to me was why are you going to India aren't you scared? I said what? No one is safe anywhere anytime if kids playing in a school yard can be shot down dead by some American idiot with a big "legal" gun. That shut up my detractors ASAP.
And my arrival in India was met with, again not kidding, a truck of armed guards who drove behind the bus and secreted and secured us to our destination in Beas (punjab means 5 and is the origin of the word "punch" according to McWhorter's book OMBT). Our Sikh guru was taking no chances with Western lives. Why? Because they know that we were prized targets. Thus again, people can see some of this stuff coming. But what you can't see coming Dave is the stuff you don't even mention--local terrorists who could reek anykind of havoc with their freakin guns at any time.
Now for a second let's put the shoe on the other foot, some American terrrorists go to a place with a lot of foreigners visiting, say in Florida and target the Brits there or any other group who may not be white but are NOT Americans...can we predict or prevent that? Not sure that it has happened. What has happened here is far far more unpredictable than what happened in India.
So Dave your argument falls apart if there has been no spate of gun violence or killings here in America in the last seven years. I don't even have to look up the mass killings we've had here...too many to count. This is terrorism. Remember the right "putting on Ayers" for trial as an unrepentent terrorist? Geez why are you ignoring the parallels I ask?
The man who wanted to kill Obama and then 80 black people randomly. You don't breathe a word about this. So much for balanced and fair reporting from Dave. I respect your knowledge even though you seem not to respect my vision and very well educated opinions.
Heloise
15 - Clavos
Thank you for your patience with me, Deano.
As a non-progressive, I'm obviously not as intelligent as you, for, if I were, I would, of course, be a progressive, and therefore not make those kinds of egregious errors.
I appreciate your generous and kindly attempt to enlighten me, but unfortunately, it falls on not only stupid, but deaf ears.
I find the distinction between muslim group a and muslim group b, to be irrelevant -- they're superficial at least.
You say (condescendingly) "your terrorist organizations generally fall into two categories - religious, comprising Islamic, Hindu nationalists or Sikh; or political independence/ irredentist movements, which often overlap the religious.
I point out that all of the suspect groups are muslim, thus none of the suspects are Hindu or Sikh or any other of the groups you mention, but (sigh) it turns out that's irrelevant.
You're probably right, but it seems to me that if you have an enemy, before you can destroy him, you have you know who he is. Perhaps you don't think we need to destroy that particular enemy.
I do.
But then, I'm not a "we're all humans," love thy enemy, progressive.
I'm an "eye for an eye" neanderthal.
16 - Dan(Miller)
Zedd,
It's probably not worth mentioning, but things were pretty terrible before the U.S., for good reasons or bad, invaded Iraq. I think that, on balance, things are better now -- not great, but better. Perhaps that's not very important.You say,
Your comment, is very interesting, but I am puzzled. What do you think are the causes of terrorism, and how do you suggest that those causes, and terrorism along with them, be stamped out?
Dan(Miller)
17 - Deano
Clavos,
I don't know what a "progressive" or a non-progressive" is but you made what was bluntly an asinine and obvious observation with no particular purpose behind it, beyond trying to be stereotypical.
That you feel an urgent need to state the obvious is not my problem but I will call it stupid when it happens in a public forum and you don't make a freaking point about why you consider it highly relevant.
And the distinction between the various groups, factions and motivations involved is highly important to know. Knowing about it helps you understand the motivations, targets, logistics, staging routes, support systems etc. that you can later intredict or trace back. It helps you define where you can apply pressure.
It also keeps you from doing foolish and short-sighted strategies such as wasting huge resources on the wrong enemy in the wrong place.
18 - Dave Nalle
Dave two things: I've lived in India and made more than one trip there to the north only.
I've been to India myself, as well as being born in the middle east and having travelled extensively in the mideast and central asia. I'm fully aware of the ethnic varieties of the region.
Just heard that one of the dead is an American traveling to learn more about meditation out of Virginia. She was with a group. I actually traveled there alone and met up with people.
There are actually two dead Americans from what I've read, a 13 year old girl and her father.
One point IMO you should not try to analyze the situation based on the skin color of Indians...you have no clue there.
Actually, I do have a clue. But not having seen the attackers myself, I didn't try to analyze anything based on skin color. I referenced the statements of eyewitnesses
And whomever said that has no clue. Indians are as diverse looking as blacks here in America.
No, they are far more diverse looking and have a much larger source gene pool than African Americans.
Now for a second let's put the shoe on the other foot, some American terrrorists go to a place with a lot of foreigners visiting, say in Florida and target the Brits there or any other group who may not be white but are NOT Americans...can we predict or prevent that? Not sure that it has happened. What has happened here is far far more unpredictable than what happened in India.
The closest thing to this in the US would be the Olympic bombing carried out by Eric Rudolph in Atlanta. But I don't see what the predictability has to do with anything. My point was that terror attacks like this are inevitable, not just in India, but eventually here as well.
So Dave your argument falls apart if there has been no spate of gun violence or killings here in America in the last seven years.
The closest thing we've had to this has been the occasional school shooting. They're not politically motivated and they're not comparable.
The man who wanted to kill Obama and then 80 black people randomly. You don't breathe a word about this. So much for balanced and fair reporting from Dave. I respect your knowledge even though you seem not to respect my vision and very well educated opinions.
Heloise, it's okay to admit you didn't actually read the article before commenting on it. Go ahead. The whole point of my article is that we can't avoid terrorism here and that the attack in Mumbai should be a reminder. You seem to have entirely missed this.
Dave
19 - Lee Richards
RE #16:
And things in the U.S., I think, are not now on balance better than they were "before the U.S., for good reasons or bad, invaded Iraq."
Perhaps that IS very important.
20 - Dave Nalle
Lee, perhaps we should have gotten Iraq to invade us instead of invading them.
As a side note, I have to reiterate how little this particular terrorism has to do with US policy. Despite the claims of the left, the actions of the US are rarely the primary cause of terrorism and we are the target not because of our policies, but because of our prominence.
Dave
21 - Dan(Miller)
Lee,
Of course it is important. When I said that perhaps it is not, my tongue was firmly stuck in cheek.
Dan(Miller)
22 - Clavos
Deano 17,
Once again, I'm so grateful for your willingness to share your vast knowledge of muslim terrorists with me. I see now there are significant differences between the various factions; perhaps differences as vast as those between people who are citizens of the united states and those who are citizens of Miami.
I've never been able to grasp the importance of nuance and subtlety when hunting and killing terrorists; dead is dead.
I do apologize if I offended you with my use of the term progressive, such was not my intention. I frankly don't understand why some people embrace that particular political philosophy, but perhaps I will someday.
If I may be so bold as to inquire, how do you self-describe your political point of view?
23 - Dan(Miller)
According to the Times of India, three of the "militants" who attacked Mumbai confessed to being members of the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba group.
It seems understandable that they were mistaken for students, since most students coming ashore from small boats or rubber dinghies carry AK-47 assault rifles, pistols and grenades. Don't they?
Dan(Miller)
24 - Heloise
Dave I READ YOUR POORLY VETTED article. It stinks and as for gene pool we are all AFRICANS under the skin, or haven't you heard?
Your points are moot. McVey was some time ago, but to pull gun shooters who shoot up malls as a non-terrorist act is well beyond me.
How dare you suggest I did not read this article? I don't like that because it is an attack of my veracity. If and when I don't read something I will be honest enough to say so. Pull your soapbox down please Dave it does not become you.
Heloise
25 - Heloise
Can we do a poll here or something to the effect of who thinks that shoot-em ups against children and folks shopping is NOT terrorism? I would really freakin like to know who does not think that is domestic terrorism.
Heloise