The spectre of terrorism still stalks the world. Are we paying attention here in Fortress America?
In the United States we've now gone for seven years without a significant terror attack within our borders, and even our forces in Iraq are facing fewer and fewer threats as the Sadrists look for a way out and al Qaeda becomes increasingly marginalized. We hardly even see reports on our news about our forces in Iraq, much less about violence in other parts of the world. East Africa and Israel are old news and hardly attract even the most cursory coverage. The sad truth is that unless it's happening right here at home, our media and our complacent population just don't pay a great deal of attention.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Heloise
Dave "Too many nations have porous borders and substantial Muslim populations ripe for radicalization."
Heloise says "and we don't have porous borders?" I rest my case about the vetting and the reading. It is painful to read your article honestly Dave. In fact I once joked that it is a good thing that most Mexicans are Catholic because we too would have a big problem.
France, I guess you've been there too as I, has a huge muslim population and it seems that they too would have more stuff. I know all about the circa 2006 incident because I was writing a chapter at the time when a kid was electricuted and all hell broke loose in the slums where the poor folks live.
I did not visit the area, forgot what's it called, because my friend would not let me travel to areas that were highly muslim, hard thing to do in Paris though.
Heloise
Just me
27 - Deano
Clavos,
You really need to work on your condescending tone - and by that I mean you really need to work harder at it, because you don't do it particularly subtly or well, it reeks of amateurism. At least try to bring your A game...
As for the term progressive or non-progressive, I'm not offended or unoffended - it doesn't mean shit - its just a handy political label to slap on people that you don't agree with. Go ahead, slap away - again it's a shallow, poorly thought-out strategy but if that's all you got, then run with it, I'm unlikely to tear off scream "OMG, someone said something mean 2 me on teh Intertubes".
As for my political view - I don't think that's an issue as you've already got me receipted and filed in your "progressive" drawer. I'm sure somewhere in there is some good company and some bad ones, but again, it doesn't mean shit.
This little pissing match also doesn't do shit to contribute to the discussion thread so my recommendation is that if neither of us have anything further relevant to contribute to the topic at hand, we should both shut-up and let the topical discussion continue unfettered.
28 - Heloise
Yes, I did read that you were born in Yemen or somewhere hence your name Nalle I think the two were connected not sure.
But what kind of nonsense is it to say that a couple of school kids being killed is not related? And Columbine and the other university where the Asian kid killed a bunch of people is NOT terrorism? I really need as Rachel says "some talking down on this one."
The cases have NEVER been one or two people Dave but dozens. And guess what? I said what the Desi people said "Americans and Westerners are used as pawns to make the point because they are value targets but NOT THE target or goal."
What's more: The terrorism stuff there has predated here by decades, decades Dave. I guess you are aware since you are a Middle Eastern expert.
That is why if you read my post my guru took great precautions to protect us. Hell no the gangs there could care less about us but if we suited their purpose to bring attention then it would be on. But my Punjabi folks took no chance. Yes, it is seeable and preventable. The luxury hotels should have already had posted, armed AK 47-types in the lobby.
To do less than that is really the CRIME!!! In fact if I were traveling there I would NOT stay at a hotel that did not have armed guards. Will that scare some folks...you betcha, but who's running scared now? The folks and the government of India, who are our true friends.
Heloise
29 - Dave Nalle
I rest my case about the vetting and the reading. It is painful to read your article honestly Dave.
If you find reading honestly to be painful, you're likely to have a problem with any article you don't agree with. As for the vetting of the article, the facts are still valid and the links are still there in the article.
Yes, I did read that you were born in Yemen or somewhere hence your name Nalle I think the two were connected not sure.
Nalle is likely of Swedish origin. We get our names from our parents, not where we're born. And I was born in Lebanon, which is a far cry from Yemen.
But what kind of nonsense is it to say that a couple of school kids being killed is not related? And Columbine and the other university where the Asian kid killed a bunch of people is NOT terrorism? I really need as Rachel says "some talking down on this one."
Every study of terrorism draws a clear line between mass murder carried out for personal reasons and politically motivated terrorism carried out to achieve a particular political objective. To suggest that such a division does not exist is ridiculous. It makes the term 'terrorism' meaningless by potentially including every violent crime in the category.
Dave
30 - Clavos
You really need to work on your condescending tone - and by that I mean you really need to work harder at it, because you don't do it particularly subtly or well, it reeks of amateurism. At least try to bring your A game...
I know, Deano. It IS amateurism, I don't get paid to comment on these threads.
What's an "A game?" It sounds like one of those sort of "in" slang phrases only the coolest people use, which would explain my unfamiliarity with it.
Shallow is my middle name; I revel in it, particularly when the label comes from someone of demonstrably superior intelligence.
This little pissing match also doesn't do shit to contribute to the discussion thread so my recommendation is that if neither of us have anything further relevant to contribute to the topic at hand, we should both shut-up and let the topical discussion continue unfettered.
Move in whatever direction you fancy -- I always have; by design, usually the opposite of what the majority endorses.
31 - Zedd
Dan(Miller)
Westerners, Americans in particular have a tendency to make broad strokes when in comes to non Western societies. This is not a matter of good vs evil. Quit rewinding that tape. It is dangerous and dumb. You really believe that day to day life was worse under Saddam than war? Is it because it's a Western induced war so the pain of death and destruction isn't as potent?
Yes in the end things will be better in Iraq. But Saddam was going to die and things would have changed. All societies evolve. Our actions have had a hand in over a million people loosing their lives. Sober up man. This is not an MGM production or a cowboys and Indians movie where no one cares about what happened to those "savages
Dan, we know what causes terrorism. What angers most people? Frustration, hopelessness and powerlessness is what has ignited most uprisings throughout human history. However, one would have to see the people that are causing the upheaval as human. That is the problem now isn't it. They know it and feel even more frustration. The west's simplistic view of everyone else is disrespectful and frustrating. Let's grow up, face it and do something about it. Digging your heals in, wanting everyone to believe themselves to be the way you want them to and threatening to use your powerful weaponry against them is causing terror. Its what we the west do. And we forbid anyone who says anything about it.
32 - Deano
Comment # 25 who thinks that shoot-em ups against children and folks shopping is NOT terrorism? I would really freakin like to know who does not think that is domestic terrorism.
Heloise,
It depends on whether the attack on folks shopping is motivated by ideology and not purely by other motives like revenge, greed etc.
By definition the purpose of terrorism is the use of violence or threats for political or ideological purposes. So if someone shoots up a mall for the thrill of it - that's just psychosis. It might be terrifying, but it isn't terrorism. If they shoot it up for a political motivation - to win freedom for a country, government, ethnic group, religious dogma, belief etc....then it can be called terrorism.
Doesn't make it right, just or moral but terrorism is by its nature asymetric warfare - it is not generally aimed at where a country is strong, but rather where it is weak and vulnerable, where political pressure can be placed upon it to help reach a specific goal.
The incidents in Mumbai probably have a number of driving factors which we won't really understand until more information on who is involved comes in. You can probably draw some initial conclusions - such as:
- Mumbai is the financial capital of India, so hitting it hard and abruptly impacts the economy and foreign investment, it forces the Indian government to react in specific ways,
- it increases the potential tension between Pakistan and India,
- it draws world media attention to the issues and,
- by involving the international community, increases political pressure and essentially "adds another set of seats" to the negotiating table.
- builds credibility for the terrorist group - making more funding and recruitment available
- demonstrates their power by striking at the west and its encroaching secularism that is seen as a threat to Islam
33 - Deano
Clavos,
Bring your "A game" means your best game, as in played to the best of your capabilities. Sorry, I guess its not a common enough idiom (it is, for future reference neither a cool phrase nor a particularly contempory one, so my apologies for the confusion).
when the label comes from someone of demonstrably superior intelligence.
Now see, that's a good example of not bringing your A game. I did like the part about amatuerism - that's a solid shot out of the ballpark. Aim for more of that.
34 - Glenn Contrarian
Dan -
"This is not a matter of good vs evil."
AMEN!
You are spot on, but be careful - people will start calling you a liberal for daring not only to think, but to actually PUBLISH anything implying that America's efforts to tell everyone else what they should do is anything BUT the Will of God Himself....
35 - pablo
Nalle said: "You make the amusing assumption that there is a clear line that can be drawn between the Pakistani intelligence service and al Qaeda."
There sure is, it is called the CIA, and anyone who has done any serious investigation of the attacks of 9/11 would know that the Pakistani Intelligence Service known as the Inter-Services Intelligence or ISI has been completely infiltrated by the CIA for decades, as well as creating and funding the Taliban.
Fact is that Al-Ciada is a creating of Zbignew Brezenski CFR, and nothing more than the new Bogeyman to replace the now defunct Soviet Union for the military industrial complex.
As to this current attack in India I have no clue yet who was behind it, indeed if they were targeting British and American nationals they certainly did a piss poor job of it.
Nalle is nothing more than an alarmist. As to fortress America thats a complete joke. Give me 50 grand and I can guarantee you that I could get in to this country 100 people illegally in a fucking heartbeat. The reason that there has not been anymore attacks on our soil is because the perpetrators inside our secret government have decided not to stage anymore false flag terrorism for the moment. Fortress Amerika my ass,the borders are wide open.
36 - pablo
Not to mention that Mahmud Ahmed former HEAD of the ISI wired Mohamed Atta a hundred grand right before the 9/11 attacks, and on the morning of 9/11 was meeting with Porter Goss, and the former slimeball senator from Florida Bob Graham (who incidentally is one of the primary people responsible for the fox in the henhouse looting of the US Treasury.
It was just a cozy lil breakfast among friends folks.
So yeah there is quite the link between Al-Ciada, and the ISI, only trouble is that Nalle will only give you half the story, thats cause he is one of their stooges.
37 - Clavos
sigh...
38 - Dr Dreadful
Heloise @ #14:
Tamils are, as you observed, from Dravidian stock and look very different from Caucasian Indians. If the Tigers were responsible, there would for sure be numerous eyewitness reports identifying the attackers as Tamil. So far, there aren't.
When all is (eventually) said and done, this will probably turn out to have been about Kashmir: and Westerners were likely singled out because targeting them guarantees a lot of international publicity.
That said, it's worth bearing in mind that the vast majority of casualties so far have been Indian.
39 - Baronius
Dave - Maybe I'm still in a thanksgiving mood, but I've got to say: really solid article.
Yes, India has a lot of Muslims, but they've got a lot more Hindus. It's definitely worth noting that the terrorists who attacked Mumbai are Muslim, at least for those of us who aren't in the subcontinent. In South Asia, interreligious butchery isn't a rarity. In that sense, as tragic as this attack is, there isn't much that's ever succeeded in quelling the violence. That's something that the people have got to figure out how to do on their own. But for the rest of us, any time the words "terrorist" and "Islamic" show up in the same sentence, we've got to take notice.
40 - Clavos
Duck, Bar...
41 - Baronius
That's funny - I looked at Pablo's comment #36, and noticed that he didn't mention the CFR. I was shocked. That's probably the first time that's ever happened. Then I paged up....
42 - Dave Nalle
Dr. D., the problem with India is that there are so many Indians that to get to the westerners you have to kill your way through the locals.
B-tone, the irony is that if the Indian government gave Kashmir its freedom, all that would do is create yet another hostile muslim government on its borders. It's a no win situation.
Dave
43 - Dan(Miller)
Zedd, re your Comment #31. I disagree, respectfully of course.
Glen, "This is not a matter of good vs evil." Hie thee to a sink and cleanse thy mouth with lye soap. Instanter! Those weren't my words. They were Zedd's, in a comment directed to me. I hereby disassociate myself from them. Never, never I say, would such blasphemies pass my lips. Even on the day after Thanksgiving.
Dan(Miller)
44 - Zedd
Dan(M)
Just to be clear, what is it that you respectfully disagree with?
I enjoy being respected and would like to know what I am being respected with regards to.
Is it your view that:
1. Frustration, hopelessness and powerlessness has not played a role igniting most uprisings throughout human history?
2. Americans don't make generalizations about people from non-Western societies?
3. Saddam would never have died and his reign would have lasted till the end of time?
I want to be smarter. Perhaps my perspective is skewed. Please expound. What do you disagree with? Its easy to point at the bad guys but to actually contemplate the causes of a difficult situation is not as fun and we tend to abandon the discussion where we need to begin it.
45 - Heloise
Dave frankly I don't care where you were born and YES LOCALE influences the names first and surname FYI, ask any good anthropologist. Because the names are drawn usually from the Old form. Many English names such as my own come from old English. So you are absolutely wrongo in your statement that the father gives the name.
Dave "Every study of terrorism draws a clear line between mass murder carried out for personal reasons and politically motivated terrorism carried out to achieve a particular political objective. To suggest that such a division does not exist is ridiculous. It makes the term 'terrorism' meaningless by potentially including every violent crime in the category."
Tell that to the Palin crowd. All politics is local. Then so be it. The term terrorist is a catch-all in my universe and no I am not making the fine distinction of politcal motivation as per the definition. If one person kills a whole damn bunch of people at one time it is terrorism. If it were not then people would not be running for cover for their lives if they did not think they were in danger...hello.
The purpose is to strike terror and in the bargain people lose rights. But never the right to bear a bunch of arms.
What the diff between politics and the psychotic really? They are both about zealotry in my book. I call it terrorism and you can call me wrong for so doing.
Heloise
46 - Dan(Miller)
Zedd,
big problem brewing, likely to make what we have seen thus far resemble a pleasant day at the beach by comparison (no, I am not channeling Ruvy, although perhaps I should be). Whatever may be the answer, and I do not know what it is if there is one, making nice is probably neither viable nor the solution of choice.
Let me think about it overnight. My first reaction is to say "just about everything in the comment," but that would be neither respectful nor accurate.
While I am pondering these things, you might be interested in pondering these two articles, which I found quite interesting. Here is one and here is another. They suggest, at least to me, that Pakistan is on the way down the toilet, that terrorism is a hydra with many heads, each one chopped off resulting in at least two more, and that there is a
Dan(Miller)
47 - Heloise
(amendment to last post) Oh, but since you were a misplaced Swede or whatever, then your Swedish name or whatever came from the locale that you would have been born in had you not been born in where ever your were born.
I am still right locale by way of local language(s)DAMN sure does influence names.
Heloise
48 - Clavos
I am still right locale by way of local language(s)DAMN sure does influence names.
I don't know, Heloise. I have a German surname, yet have never even set foot in Germany, and no one in my ancestral family has been born there since early in the 16th century. In other words, there is no connection whatever, going back more than 400 years.
And to top it off, my first name is purely Swedish, very rarely found here in the US, and not at all in Mexico, where I was born, and of which I am a citizen.
49 - bliffle
The article starts off with a favorite distraction of the GWB administration:
"In the United States we've now gone for seven years without a significant terror attack within our borders,..."
The attacks ceased because we withdrew US troops from Saudi holy lands immediately after 9/11/2001. That was what OBL had repeatedly stated that he wanted, and GWB did it.
That is why OBL turned his attention elsewhere, not the terrorism counter attack tat GWB launched against Afghanistan and Iraq.
There was no need to attack Iraq, etc. It was wasted warfare.
50 - Dave Nalle
I'm with Clavos. The Nalle name likely came over to the US in the mid-17th century. Whatever connection we had to Sweden was lost long, long ago.
Historically, American Nalles originate in the area of Culpepper Virginia, going back to before the Revolution. But my immediate ancestors left there around the time of the civil war.
So as Clavos points out, the name can far outlast any actual association with the region of origin.
Dave
51 - Zedd
Dan(M)
You don't disappoint. Thanks.
52 - Irene wagner
OK I give up! What's the banned word [12] du jour?
I've not said anything about socialyzm in the comment I've been trying to post.
53 - Cindy D
Iraq Approves US Withdrawal Deal
2:18pm UK, Thursday November 27, 2008
A security pact which would see US forces withdraw from Iraq by the end of 2011 has been approved by the Iraqi parliament.
54 - Irene wagner
The gist of it was "three cheers for the Indian Commandos without whose bravery there would be two hundred more victims. And India did it all by herself."
I'm glad your comment ended up being posted first, Cindy_D.
55 - sanjay
one thing is for sure ... the terrorists are all muslims as they always are all over the world
56 - Brunelleschi
I am trying to figure out what Dave's article contributed besides "Gee, there are bad people out there doing bad things and we better not forget about it....I don't know for sure who they are, but I just wanted you all to know something bad still happens...."
The one who makes the most sense is Zedd.
The discussion on terror in America almost always lacks balance. When a nation hates Osama bin Laden and makes a hero out of Ollie North and can't see that they are the same people, it's no wonder.
Cindy-Six + years ago I wrote on another site that the war in Iraq was about getting private, Western control of a nationalized oil ministry, and the troops can only come home when the oil is secure in private, Western hands. Look up the Iraqi Oil Law if you want to know when the troops can come back and what controls that. All the rest is propaganda.
57 - Clavos
When a nation...makes a hero out of Ollie North...
Say what?
What nation would that be?
58 - Glenn Contrarian
The statement by Sanjay #55: "one thing is for sure ... the terrorists are all muslims as they always are all over the world"
A perfect example of someone who hasn't paid attention!
I guess you don't remember Timothy McVeigh, the Red Faction, the Weather Underground, the Ku Klux Klan; the assassins of Archduke Ferdinand, JFK, MLK (and almost Reagan); the ongoing terrorist attacks in Nepal, Sri Lanka; the death squads in Argentina (and now Mexico); the incessant terrorist acts between Hindu and Muslim in northern India for generations; the Earth Liberation Front...
...and in the very same breath that you condemn the 1% or so of Muslims who actively support terrorism, you'd BETTER be ready to also condemn mainstream 'Christianity' - because mainstream 'Christianity' has killed more people in the name of God than any other religion in human history (and if you don't like that statement, then prove it wrong!).
So take your apparent prejudice against Muslims and look at it in the cold, hard light of reality, of human history...and you'll find their history is not much different - and perhaps even more peaceful - than your own.
59 - Georgio
Dave thanks for a very informative article..I sometimes wonder how you have the courage to write anything with all the attacks thrown at you..
Most of the ppl on this site are very smart but are more interested in padding their own egos than contributing to the article but in a strange way I learn a lot from all of them..
I like Heloise but she has to learn not to put others down to show how smart she is but then I don't know if I would enjoy her comments as much..I also liked Zedds comments .
I would have liked to see more follow up on what Bliffle said because it relates to what bothers me ..and that is ..Why have we not had attacks by suicide bombers on our trains Malls etc. I don't buy Heloise comments that it is already going on..I think Dave's comment that there is a difference is more accurate but I have always thought they are already here and are just waiting for orders ..If they wait until Obama is in office I can just hear Clavos saying "I TOLD YOU SO"..so can anyone comment on this ..
60 - Dave Nalle
Yep, you can tell we made a hero of Ollie North by the fact that we sent him to jail. We do that as a kind of badge of honor, right?
As for terrorists and Obama, they don't see Obama as any different from Bush. Their hostility is not towards any individual leader, but towards the US as the symbol of western depravity and oppression - or at least the most prominent target that represents those beliefs.
I'm also surpsised at all the opportunities terrorists have not taken advantage of here in the US. I can see points of vulnerability every day. Got to wonder what's stopping them.
Dave
61 - bliffle
Georgio asks: "...Why have we not had attacks by suicide bombers on our trains Malls etc...."
the answer is that what OBL wanted all along was that the USA withdraw it's troops from Saudi Holy land, and GWB did exactly that soon after 9/11/2001. As I explained in #49, above.
Now, to OBL (and Zawihiri, apparently the brains behind these things) the USA is no longer a primary target. Yeah, sure, OBL recites the usual anti-USA rhetoric, but he has little reason to attack the USA itself.
All the posturing by the far right about the Iraq war stalling attacks on the USA are BS, plain and simple. It just doesn't interest OBL/Zawihiri that much at this time. he's content to have us bogged down in the Iraq quagmire so we don't pop into some other war. OBL must be thrilled that stupid ass Bush has now managed to get us bogged down in Afghanistan as well.
What a curse it is to have a Commander in Chief as dumb and ignorant of strategy as GWB is. How easy he is to tie in knots so that he is no longer important. What fools we are to support the futile Bush war policies.
Not the least of GWBs ignorant blunders is allowing OBL/Zawihiri to run loose.
62 - Cindy D
Brunelleschi,
I don't think you'd find I disagree with you about the war. I was simply neutrally posting an important news article that I hadn't seen discussed yet.
63 - Brunelleschi
Dave, you and I both know (I would hope) that far too many people held North up as some kind of hero-and still do. He was nothing more than an American OBL.
We don't knew if Al Qaeda's base views Obama as different from Bush. It's not that simple. The leaders of course will be singing the same tune, but actions do matter.
I doubt if Obama will have enough power as president to roll back some of the western mistakes/behavior that Al Qaeda is playing up to use against us.
64 - Ruvy
I don't see that much bargaining has gone on for the hostages, but we're getting conflicting reports right now. Last night reports were saying that both hotels and the Jewish centre had been recaptured, but today there are new reports which have them still in terrorist hands.
There was one phone call from the Haba"d House that might have indicated an intention to negotiate. But, to my knowledge, that was the only indication of an intent to negotiate on the part of the terrorists. From what I am aware, the Indians treated this as it should have been treated, a hostile assault to be put down by murdering the perpetrators. It is not possible to know if the attackers ever intended to negotiate - they were kept too busy fighting for their lives.
And fortunately, they have been killed.
It would be nice to see Israel show the same determination in crushing Arab terror in Israel. There is no room for it, and terrorists should be killed, not jailed. There should be NO Arab terrorists in Israeli jails. They should have been executed already. It should be clear to every kid listening to a Hamas preacher that attacking Jews means losing his life.
65 - Clavos
It would be nice to see Israel show the same determination in crushing Arab terror in Israel. There is no room for it, and terrorists should be killed, not jailed.
It IS surprising that the Israelis aren't more hardassed.
It may have something to do with their close ties to the land of the feckless and home of the fey.
66 - Heloise
Clavos you may need to read about slavery and its aftermath. Then there is the geneology wherein one can trace names.
Both my names are anglo irish due to white slave ancestors. They may have come from England don't know, not me. But I've had many past-life associations with both England and Russia naturally.
Many many people including my own Cuban relatives changed the surname and had to flee Cuba way back when. Now we don't know what the heck the name was before it was changed...it is now Berea.
Someone in your family may have seen a German word and decided to use it and there was a name change in your family. You nor I can say for sure unless you have done family histories.
Have you done that?
When people got to Ellis Island they would often Anglocize their names. Many people dropped the "Mc" other not.
Again, I stick to my POV. Name origins is a fascinating area of study for me. I've been doing it as a hobby only for the past 30 years, that's all.
I use the letters of names in what I call "name pattern recognition" wherein a person has many letters in common with their name of a past life. Especially the aspects of that life they are reliving. It sounds like you were probably German in a recent past life.
It is actually very complex. In the future people will study my work and then study their own past lives along the lines I've laid out.
Heloise
67 - Heloise
Thanks Georgio, but sometimes I get paranoid and kill a fly with a hammer because I've been online for a decade fighting with folks who have beat me every which way with words!
My argument is that people here, especially Dave, immediately point out that I'm wrong, no matter what I say I am NEVER making a real COGENT or correct point. So, I do get in a huff. That's par for the Blavatsky course you might say.
That's just me.
Heloise
But glad youd said you enjoy because I make myself LOL all the time.
68 - Clavos
Heloise,
Someone in your family may have seen a German word and decided to use it and there was a name change in your family. You nor I can say for sure unless you have done family histories.
Have you done that?
All the way back to the early 1500s.
In my direct line, the name is unchanged since then, and those with my surname actually were Catholics in southern Germany. Much later, one of my ancestors, who fought with Napoleon, wound up moving to Sweden in the early nineteenth century, where the family has resided ever since, except for my paternal grandfather (now deceased), who came to America as a young man in the early twentieth century, married an American-born girl whose father (my great-grandfather) was also German--his surname is my middle name. My father was the only person who carried my surname from birth to be born in America (New York), as my siblings and I were all born in Mexico, where my parents moved shortly after marrying.
Still working on the genealogy prior to the 16th century, but the records are much fewer and more difficult to find.
I know the names, birth and death dates and locations of every one of my ancestors, direct and indirect, back to the early 1500s.
69 - Dan(Miller)
Zedd, you ask (Comment #44),
Is it your view that:
1. Frustration, hopelessness and powerlessness has not played a role igniting most uprisings throughout human history? I don't know about "most," but they certainly have played significant roles. Japan's motivations for entering World War II seem to have been somewhat different. However, these factors had a lot to do with Hitler's rise to power in Germany, with the rise of Communism in what became the U.S.S.R. and with the empowerment of North Korea's post World War II great leaders. However, the fact that frustration, hopelessness and powerlessness often catalyze such things does not, to me at least, suggest that they should be ignored. The United States and other nations had to defeat Germany and Japan, and the United States, assisted by a token United Nations force, had to defeat North Korea when she invaded South Korea. Much blood was shed, but on balance I think the world is a more pleasant place than it would have been had the U.S. sat on the sidelines. Fortunately, the U.S.S.R. fell of her own weight without military intervention; unfortunately, she appears now to be in a revival mode.
The current terrorist attacks are different from "civilized" war; non-combatants are targeted almost exclusively, and small children are used as suicide bombers. Religious fanaticism, whatever may be its root causes, is a primary factor and a very bad thing. The September 11th terrorist attack on the United States, and the more recent attack in India, probably had a lot to do with religious fanaticism. The desire for riches appears to be a principal factor motivating the Pirates of Somalia. Going back many hundreds of years to find, analyze and ameliorate the root causes does not seem likely to do much good at this point. It would also take a very long time, and I don't think we can wait.
2. Americans don't make generalizations about people from non-Western societies? Of course they do. They also make generalizations about people from Western societies. French people smell bad and eat frogs, everyone south of the border lives on tacos, and Central America in general is pretty much like many border towns. Not true; well, not entirely, anyway. Many people in Central America may well assume that Miami is representative of the United States as a whole and that U.S. television programs and movies represent reality. I don't know what the French think, but it probably is not very nice.
It would be very useful if everyone between the ages of eighteen and twenty-one could spend a couple of years making grand bicycle tours of the world, living among "the people." This might help perceptions to approach reality more closely; unfortunately, it seems unlikely to happen.
3. Saddam would never have died and his reign would have lasted till the end of time? Yes, of course he would have died. His reign might well have outlasted him, however, until long past the end of time for lots of people in Iraq and elsewhere.
I realize that this is not an adequate response, and to make amends I will try to write an article over the next few days delving more deeply into these and other related matters. In the meantime, here, for your amusement, are a few questions for you.
1. Assume that you are a passenger on a freighter two hundred miles off the coast of Somalia, and it is attacked by a bunch of guys in small but fast speed boats. A dozen security guards, armed with rocket launchers and assault rifles, is on board your freighter and want to fire at the attackers, but ask your advice first. What would you suggest?
2. Assume that you are in a small village in Israel, under attack by rockets fired by Palestinian freedom fighters. The house next door is destroyed, and a nearby school is hit with several kids killed and more badly injured. How, if at all, would you suggest that the Israeli Government respond?
3. Assume that you had the power to direct the United Nations to respond to these two scenarios. What would you direct the United Nations to do?
Dan(Miller)
70 - Lumpy
Heloise. there are no past lives. you are delusional. have you sought psychiatric help?
Bruno. you make the common mistake of assuming that because a US policy pisses off some soc!alist goons or a tinhorn dictator or a bunch of psychotic child murderers it is The US which is at fault and needs to change.
So, so wrong. We are known by the enemies we make and being hated by tranzi stooges and theocratic terrorists is a mark of honor and a sign we're doing something right. If we were making them happy then we'd have lost our way.
71 - Zedd
Dan(M)
I'll address your answer to #1 first. The refrigerator calls, dessert beckons and I wont disappoint....
You make an excellent point however, I didn't assert that violence should be ignored. Lets move away from that.
Now, the fact that the upheavals come from frustration is not enough. What must be assessed for "civilized" societies is if their claims are legitimate. If the beefs have legitimacy, than we've go work to do. It is imperative that those who would seek a moral imperative, should be moral. Designing the most elaborate and largest PR campaign does not make one right.
On the issue of the manner of engaging in warfare.... Are you saying that no one can retaliate or cause warfare unless they have a large army, one that is large enough to engage with the powers that be? Are you saying that when the militaries of the "civilized" cause the deaths of children and the innocent, it is more justifiable or less abhorrent? Are you saying that when declaring war that the civilized don't anticipate innocent casualties? Help me out here.
I'll respond to the rest later. My refrigerator is insisting that I give it some attention. That peach cobbler is such a pest.
72 - Zedd
Dan(M)
I've eaten way too much. Thoughts of Fatso the movie came to mind as I was devouring.
To answer your first question.
1. I think that a system of protection should be initiated. We live and learn. Now we know that the seas are no longer safe so we put practices into place that prevent the crooks from causing havoc.
2.First I would move. Then ask the Israeli government to figure out a way to make peace with its neighbors. Israel is in the Middle East not Europe. They cant piss everyone off around them and expect to live well. So I'd ask my government to sober up, quit digging in because of what happened in Europe a half a century ago or Egypt or wherever. Deal with this situation, give what you HAVE to give and move on. Being mistreated in the past does not give you the right to be the bad guys today.
3. Do a thorough analysis of the causes of the situations. HEAVILY sanction those that propel the situation.
73 - Ruvy
Zedd,
Your answers in comment #72 are what mark you as someone who can't be take seriously.
Your ignorance of history is as encyclpedic as your lack of understanding of the choice that faces the Israeli.
The Arabs have made THEIR position clear. They do not want us to live here; they do not want us to die here. But, if we do not leave, they'll cause us to die here. Their hate is paplpable.
THAT IS THEIR BOTTOM LINE AND ALL THE REST IS BULLSHIT AND MANEUVERING TO GET TO THAT BOTTOM LINE. Even the Moslem pricks in Mumbai targeted innocent Jews and murdered them off! And they are not even Arabs; but they are infected by the same hate the Arabs are!
First I would move.
And where would you move if you were a Jew in Israel? Would you move to Mumbai where some Moslem would kill you off for being a Jew? Maybe you would move to Jo-burg, where the blacks would hate you and the Afrikaners would be bigoted against you? Maybe you could move to Paris, where the Moslems could gang-rape you while the Christians snicker in their sleeves? Or better yet, to Kiev, where the Ukrainians could beat you up after they rape you? Or maybe you can run to America, where if you do not get attacked for being Jewish, you can lose your heritage when your child(ren) marry non-Jews?
THERE IS A REASON FOR A JEWISH STATE. THE REASON IS THAT AFTER 2,000 YEARS OF PERSECUTION, THE JEWISH STATE IS OUR FINAL REFUGE IN OUR LAND.
IF IT IS INDEED G-D'S WILL THAT WE DIE, AT LEAST WE DIE WITH HONOR, DEFENDING OUR HOMES WITH RIFLES FIRING AND GRENADES LAUNCHING - AND IF WE HAVE THE STRENGTH AND GUTS, WE CAN TAKE MILLIONS OF ARABS ANDS OTHER ENEMIES DOWN WITH US WHEN WE DIE AND MAKE THE REST OF THE STINKING LOT OF HUMANITY REMEMBER US FOREVER WHEN WE MAKE NUCLEAR GLASS OUT OF OIL FIELDS AND OF CITIES LIKE ROME, BERLIN, AND KIEV, SO THAT THE JEW-HATERS OF THE WORLD REMEMBER, HOW IN THOSE LAST DAYS HOW WE INDEED DID POISON THE WELLS AND TOOK VENGEANCE ON OUR PERSECUTORS.
That is what free men with spines do, Zedd. Your path is the path of the coward and the slave.
And it is most assuredly NOT my path.
In YOUR stinking world, peace comes in the grave, or when your enemy is dead and rotting on the ground.
Mumbai and the murder of Rabbi and Rebbetzin Holtzberg, z"l, HY"D, is the reminder that all YOUR talk of "peace on earth" is just a pack of shit.
74 - Jordan Richardson
Well, since you put it that way...
75 - Irene Wagner
Ruvy, please read this. It's written by a rabbi from the chabad organization, who is grieving the death of the rabbi and his wife who represented chabad in Mumbai.