I have been a supporter of President Bush since he was nominated by the party over seven years ago. He was certainly a better choice than either of the Democrats running, and I have generally agreed with his policies.
I support the war on terror and the war in Iraq, and I believe that we need to wipe out what people call Islamic extremism but what is really mainstream Islam. I have, however, disagreed with him on several issues, and the most important one is illegal immigration.
The President of the United States does not have a clue when it comes to immigration and securing our borders against an invasion from the south. President Bush, along with several Republicans, has sided with Ted Kennedy in supporting an amnesty bill that will ruin this country. I would have thought that these people in DC would have learned from the last two Kennedy-sponsored amnesty bills that were touted as the end to illegal immigration but ended up giving us more illegals than before. They can deny that it is amnesty and point to sanctions, but those sanctions will soon disappear, and we will be left with millions of freeloaders who suck up resources and bring us down. One only needs to look at what they did to Mexico and what they have done to the towns they have taken over in the US to know that things will get worse, not better.
President Bush is out on the trail trumping up this bill and trying to tell people why they should support it. I believe that President Bush has always wanted a way to grant millions of illegals amnesty and to allow them to live here and sponge off the taxpayers in this country, and now that the Democrats are the majority he has the forum in which to do it. He has been beaten up so badly over the past six years that I believe he is willing to do anything to pass this so that he will have some sort of legacy. Believe me when I tell you that the legacy will be of a failed presidency and the ruination of America if he has his way. The problem with those in DC is that they do not listen to the majority of people in this country who do not support this bill. They just feel that we do not understand. Here is what the President had to say: "Those determined to find fault with this bill will always be able to look at a narrow slice of it and find something they don't like," the president said. "If you want to kill the bill, if you don't want to do what's right for America, you can pick one little aspect out of it.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - zingzing
sigh... i don't want to get into it. yeah, yeah, i know. why bother, eh? indeed.
2 - Jared Wright
Big Dog, meet Practicality. You two have some catching up to do.
So, pray tell, how do you exactly plan to fairly and at least somewhat efficiently locate and deport 12,000,000 illegal immigrants? Without creating economic fallout and using only the limited resources you have? Get back with me on that, and we'll talk about this heroic stand you're taking on behalf of our borders.
3 - Big Dog
Jared, meet English. Closing the border is the right thing and no other solution will work until we do this. What part of that involves deporting 12 million people? We need to secure the border.
THEN, as we catch ILLEGALS we deport them or jail them if they have committed another crime (which quite a few do). We change the law so local police can check and detain those who are ILLEGAL and we can deport or jail them.
You see, they did not all come here in one swift act miraculously appearing. They came here over time and we can get rid of them over time but without a secure border, it is wasted effort.
I hear people like you tell me all the time that there is an economic impact blah, blah. There are no jobs Americans will not do, they just will not do them for meager wages. Americans will work for appropriate wages. As for the impact, I don't mind paying a little more for my lettuce.
The economic burden of these people far outweighs any perceived benefit. They consume more than they produce. You might get cheap oranges but you pay higher health care costs and taxes for schools because they consume these items and do not pay for them.
Since employers hire ILLEGALS because they save money for the boss, we should mandate a $10,000 fine per ILLEGAL to any employer who hires one. This will stop the practice of hiring ILLEGALS real quick...
4 - Christopher Rose
I'm not convinced by the argument that Americans are prepared to work but only at a certain level of pay.
In a report on the BBC's website today, their Washington correspondent mentioned in passing
5 - Big Dog
Sorry, I don't believe in absolutes such as the ONLY solution is a political one that accomodates law breakers.
Why do we have laws? Amnesty encourages more and more people to break the law to come here as seen the lst two times that the government granted amnesty.
How about we round up all the illegals and send them to Iraq to fight. That is a job that few Americans are willing to do. If they live we can make them a citizen and if they die we will make them one posthumously. If they can not go to Iraq we can put them on chain gangs and make them work off their debt to society for their criminal behavior. Or better yet, let's make our own criminals work those fields for free to work off what it costs to keep them in jail.
In reality, they do not want to be citizens so signing the bill will make them legal and that is what they want. They will still take things that they did not pay for and increase costs. Once that bill is signed all the criminals like the gang members of MS13 will be legal.
I guess you folks feel it is OK to break the law if there is a good reason. How about we release those folks in prison who broke the law, they stole/murdered/fill in the blank to make their lives better...
6 - zingzing
"I guess you folks feel it is OK to break the law if there is a good reason."
yep. 100% absolutely true.
as far as your ideas on sending all the illegal aliens off to iraq or jail go... you know that's stupid. we don't have the space, the planes, the desire nor the general stupidity to try it.
you're offering no solutions except the ones that punish everyone for the failure of our laws. the law needs fixing. something coherant and possible to accomplish. something that makes citizenship more enticing than entering illegally.
once all those illegal aliens are documented and made to pay taxes, what will you have left against them? i'm sure you'll figure something out.
7 - Big Dog
Obviously Zing, there is a bit of sarcasm involved. I guess I don't understand how the only method is to reward people for breaking the law. It cheapens the efforts of those who did it the right way and it makes a sham of our legal system.
So what if the laws are broken, though I don't believe they are. We have a method in place in order to get here and it needs to be followed. How tough is that and how is it broken. It is only broken to people who apologize for the illegal behavior.
What part of ILLEGAL do you have trouble with any way? Besides, many of these folks will pay little if any taxes because they will not make enough. They will surely be on welfare and other social services that we tax paying citizens have to foot the bill for.
It is a plain and simple issue. They came here ILLEGALLY and need to be dealt with.
I will grant you that the law is broken in that it is set up so local law enforcement can not check the status of these people. That is a farce and needs to be corrected. I do not believe in appeasing people who broke the law. Nothing will change that hovwever, if you are so keen on it can we let Scooer Libby go? How about all the ENRON execs? They were just trying to make life better for themselves and all these securities laws are messed up anyway.
8 - zingzing
"I guess I don't understand how the only method is to reward people for breaking the law."
well, it's not the only way. we don't reward them, we put them through what it takes to become a citizen. we don't have the resources, the time or the energy to deal with 12-20 million deportation cases. it's impossible. so get over it.
"[The law] is only broken to people who apologize for the illegal behavior."
nope. it's broken when at least 12 million people decide it is easier and safer just to forget the law. it's broken when american businesses decide that saving a few dollars an hour is a reasonable risk. that's broken. who's apologizing? "sorry for all the illegals?" don't be ridiculous.
"What part of ILLEGAL do you have trouble with any way?"
none. "enforcement" is where the problems come in.
"Besides, many of these folks will pay little if any taxes because they will not make enough."
well... if they are making reasonable wages, they'll make more money, pay more taxes... hrm... i'm sure one of the qualifications for citizenship that everyone can agree on is that you hold a job. of course, you can't do that if there is no guest worker program. but you don't want that... you just want them out, eh?
"It is a plain and simple issue. They came here ILLEGALLY and need to be dealt with."
deal with it then! deportation is a fool's answer. it won't work. this is a real problem, not just some political issue. it needs to be dealt with in reality.
"can we let Scooer Libby go? How about all the ENRON execs?"
nope. but if there were 12 million of them all doing the same thing, i'd say we would be totally fucked anyway, so what would be the point of doing anything? of course, that's not what i'm saying about immigration.
we need a real solution that at least allows people to earn a decent wage and makes immigrants pay their own way. throwing them out of the country won't happen. what will work is making citizenship more attractive than illegal immigration. to do that, we have to make it possible.
9 - zingzing
hey, i just wrote a very nice response to big dog and the damn thing's gone missing. what up?
10 - Big Dog
I didn't do it and wouldn't if I could
11 - zingzing
shit... the main gist of it was this, then:
"rewarding" people is not the aim. putting them through what is necessary to become citizens is.
the law is broken when 12-20 million illegal immigrants and countless american businessmen decide it is worth the risk to break the law to make/pay a few dollars more/hour.
i don't have any problem understanding "illegal." what part of "effective enforcement" troubles you?
enron execs are a few people who duped lots of people out of a lot of money. we can get them. so we get them. illegal immigration may or may not cost us oodles of cash on a national level. what do we do? we tell them they are here illegally and should pay taxes. doesn't stop them. obviously, we need to make them follow the law and become citizens and pay taxes, because they aren't going to stop coming. and yes, they will pay taxes--i'm sure the government will figure that part out. that's what they do best, yeah?
12 - zingzing
"I didn't do it and wouldn't if I could"
of course not. that never crossed my mind. it's the anti-spam program or something. whatever.
13 - Lisa McKay
Caught in the spam filter; I've set it free.
14 - Big Dog
Well I have to agree that if the government can find a way to make them pay taxes they will but most will be under the poverty level and pay little if any.
Look, I am not opposed to legal immigration. I see a lot of Mexicans working in this area putting up houses and working on landscapes and I have to say that they are all hard working. I have no problem with their work ethic and for all I know most of them could be legal.
The point is, we capture many of them each year and could capture many more if states were allowed to enforce the law. Couple that with the fact that being here illegally is a civil crime and there are problems. We should have aggressive campaigns that send the illegal ones home when we catch them and we should not make millions legal with the stroke of a pen.
There are many ways to stop the problem and some of it deals with demand, as you pointed out about employers (like Pelosi and Feinstein) so employers should be given a method to determine status and if they do not or ignore it they pay a huge fine for each worker that is illegal.
I also believe that states have rights and should be able to determine if ILLEGALS are allowed there. The feds can talk about the country all they want but each state can decide what to do with illegals and should be allowed to without federal interference.
And yes, they cost a lot of money. There are hospitals closing all over (especially in California) and those in danger (Maryland in the DC suburbs) because of all the immigrants who seek care and do not pay.
Congress has already ruled they are eligible to receive Social Security (another reason it should be privatized) and they will apply for food stamps, welfare and Medicaid. It is costing us a fortune now and will increase with this bill.
Couple this with the fact that they send billions back to Mexico and do not spend it here and the economy takes a double hit.
I knew you were not insinuating I blocked the comment. I did not mean to give that impression...
15 - zingzing
"Well I have to agree that if the government can find a way to make them pay taxes they will but most will be under the poverty level and pay little if any."
have you read the proposed law? go do that. the (proposed) poverty line is 50% higher for immigrants. unless i'm just dreaming.
"We should have aggressive campaigns that send the illegal ones home when we catch them and we should not make millions legal with the stroke of a pen."
again, go read the law. if you are referring to the $5,000 dollar check they have to write... okay.
"I also believe that states have rights and should be able to determine if ILLEGALS are allowed there."
oh my god. no. what would you have? states taking it upon themselves to "deport" illegals across state lines, families split up, states squabbling, different laws in different states making it impossible to come to a national concensus on the problem... you'd have chaos. ignorant, ignorant idea.
"There are hospitals closing all over."
that's true even in areas without large immigrant populations. americans as a whole can't afford insurance. that ain't just a problem brought on by illegal aliens, it's the health insurance business.
"Couple this with the fact that they send billions back to Mexico and do not spend it here and the economy takes a double hit."
wait, wait... so less than one twentieth of the population... that we don't even want... sends money back home, making it a better place... maybe some place they are returning to... so they won't have to stay here forever... fine by me!
"Congress has already ruled they are eligible to receive Social Security"
you know as well as i do that that is a shitty law with major holes in it. it needs to be plugged up. and don't try and say that illegal aliens can get ahold of social security. the problem is that the law makes no provision against immgrants who become citizens claiming ss benefits from the time when they were illegal immigrants. ugh. and again, this isn't the only problem with social security. it's just making an already fucked-up-to-death system worse.
16 - Big Dog
Sorry but a state should be able to decide if an illegal can rent or buy a house. If a state can make itself a sanctuary then a state can deny things to illegals. They would not need to send them to other states. They make a law that if you are ILLEGAL and try to do business you will either go to jail or be deported. The idea of jail time or deportation seems to work if it is enforced.
Health care is expensive for a number of reasons. There are the illegals, there are the lawsuits. About 19 of every 20 dollars spent on health care is spent for litigation. Also, the government mandates what a plan has to offer. It is ridiculous for a person who will never get an abortion to pay for abortion services in a policy (like women who can not have kids). It is ridiculous for people who do not use aroma therapy to have to pay for it because that has to be offered in the package for a particular state.
I am in the health care profession and see alll kinds of abuses and many come from the people who supposedly can not afford it. I can't afford $90 a month for my pills. Quit that 2 pack a day habit and you could. Young people who do not opt in for insurance offered by an employer because it takes money from their pay. Can imagine they are barely getting by with a cell phone, nice car, great clothes, cable, computer, and big screen TV. I have seen the abuses of the health care system and most of it involves the people themselves and government interference.
Social Security should be privatized so my money goes to me and my heirs.
17 - Big Dog
BTW, yes I have read a lot of it. If you believe that the provisions for a fine and poverty line as well as many other items will stay there you are dreaming. Once they get it in they will start rescinding things and screw America real good.
18 - zingzing
i can agree with most of 16 and 17. (other than the whole state thing, which will just add to the chaos if implemented.)
immigration is a tough thing. always has been. always will be. nothing's changed for the past 150 years except for the nationalities and skin colors. it won't change overnight.
deportation is not the answer. if we want an answer, we'll have to work for it. taking the hardline, as you seemingly want to do, will just prolong the problem.
19 - jamal
Michael Jackson has more class then you speak of. Michael you the greatest. dem fools know no shit. We luves you Michael.
20 - Big Dog
It has not been a problem for 150 years because we upheld our immigration laws. People came here legally. Immigration is not a tough thing if immigrants follow the law.
21 - zingzing
so immigrants were never a problem in the late 19th and early 20th century? the was never any civil strife?
*cocks eyebrow*
22 - Big Dog
Immigrants or illegals sneaking in?
Immigrants who came here legally caused problems but our country was much better at deporting those we found here illegally. We also refused them entry if they did not have shots or were sick.
I would hate to see the outcry if one of those illegals sneaks in here with XMR TB like the guy on the plane. There might be millions of infections. If you don't control who comes in you can't control what they bring with them.
23 - Clavos
There were no immigration laws before the 1920s, and when they were enacted then, they were aimed at eastern Europeans, because we were afraid we would be overrun by refugees from the chaos in Europe after WW I.
Before the 1920s, and particularly in the 19th century, when my Irish ancestors came over, you were let in if you simply made it here and were "healthy" (determined by a very cursory exam). That's it. No quotas. No proving financial responsibility, education (most immigrants then were ignorant and illiterate penniless European peasants). Nothing. Show up, and you were in. Millions came that way.
I agree with BD. The most urgent priority in the whole mess is securing (really securing) the border.
Once the border is secure, a realistic guest worker program, that allows them to stay for several years should be set up. When they get work, register to pay taxes, and SS, they get accepted into the program.
Deportation probably could be done, but would be expensive, difficult, and, in the end, counterproductive, since these folks could contribute significantly to our society as guest workers.
I do not think they should ever be eligible for citizenship (as BD said upthread, most don't want it anyway); granting them citizenship sends the wrong message to all the rest of the world.
The bottom line is they are coming for the work; let's regulate the eligibility for work and let them.
Just for the record: citizenship is not and never has been a requirement for paying into and later receiving benefits from SS.
I have a Canadian friend who has been a Green card resident for more than thirty years. He worked, paid taxes and SS, and now he's retired and draws SS. He was never required to return to Canada to renew (but does anyway, frequently), and I don't think that should be a requirement for becoming a guest worker; it's a stupid rule that serves no purpose.
Also for the record: (and BD, as a medical worker, you probably know this) hospitals that treat indigent patients that do not (or cannot) pay are reimbursed for much of that expense by the Fed and state governments, that's not why hospitals are closing all over the country.
They're closing because the supply of hospital beds, thanks to overbuilding by private hospital operators such as HCA and Tenet, is much greater than the demand, and the law of supply and demand has caught up with them.
As an example, HCA's global occupancy rate in 2006 was only 52.5%, according to Bloomberg.
My two cents worth.
24 - Big Dog
Clavos,
Agree with a lot of what you said. However, the government does not reimburse for much of any indigent expenses. They pay some of it but many hospitals write off millions upon millions in unpaid bills. We have a fee added to our car registration to help Shock Trauma.
If we secure the border and punish the people some way, make them go home and apply and have some draconian measures for those we catch sneaking in, we will have a start. Like I said, they work hard but so did many people who are in jail.
Paris Hilton will be in jail for minor stuff and she pays a lot in taxes and is a citizen (though I think she got what she deserved I now believe maybe she needs amnesty).
As for hospital beds, all I can say is we never have very many open beds here and hospitals are always overcrowded. Hospitals can not continue to provide their most expensive care (ER) for non emergent people who do not pay. BTW, the law of supply and demand says that if there are more beds than patients the beds will be cheaper. Fewer beds than patients and they will be more expensive...
25 - Clavos
"BTW, the law of supply and demand says that if there are more beds than patients the beds will be cheaper. Fewer beds than patients and they will be more expensive..."
Or, in order not to cheapen the product (which is fairly price inelastic, due to the enormous capital investment, BTW) what you do is reduce the supply, i.e., close hospitals.
I realize that there ARE specific areas where there is not a surplus of beds, which is why I cited HCA's nationwide (I called it "global" above) corporate occupancy rate.
On a national basis, there is a glut of hospital beds.