Life was so much easier when stereotypes would pass for fact, and winning meant never having to say you're sorry.
Contained in the notes of Dr. James McHenry, one of Maryland’s delegates to the Constitutional Convention and the namesake of Fort McHenry, there is a report of a famous anecdotal conversation between a "Mrs. Powel" of Philadelphia and Benjamin Franklin. In response to Mrs. Powel's question as to the nature of the government produced by the Convention, Franklin is alleged to have replied, "A Republic - if you can keep it."…
Article comments
76 - roger nowosielski
Why don't you just admit it that you love me and get it over with?
77 - Realist
Dave: Your tea party sounds more like a frat pledge rush than a gathering of the politically angry. Maybe you should have gone to one of these rallies, where the REEL PAY TREE YACHTS (spelling courtesy of Texas' No Child Left Edjimikated program) gathered.
Roger: sorry I interrupted your train of thought. Please resume - it keeps Dave amused.
78 - roger nowosielski
That's OK, Realist. I'm quite good at multitasking.
It's up to Cindy to answer now, so I'm just biding my time and enjoy my Johnny Walker Black. I hope she's having a good time, too.
79 - Cindy
But Dave! Fred Koch, founder of Koch Industries, co-founded JBS. You said the Kochs were..."Then as now, the Kochs were primarily interested in promoting freedom..."
???
Promoting freedom by founding the JBS? That seems awfully unlikely Dave.
In fact they sound more like greedy power-hungry wackos. I wonder how much influence father Fred had on his two boys. Oh wait...look what CBS says..you know CBS? Is that owned by George Sorros too?
Apparently the two upstanding fighters for liberty have spent their lives trying to kill each other to take power of the fortunes Fred left them.
Imagine Dave, being so absolutely depraved by greed and power that even with multiple billions of bucks, you'd spend your life trying to destroy your only brother to get ahead of him in the power game.
Bill Koch says Koch Industries has made millions by stealing oil from the government.
Koch says that Koch Industries engaged in "(o)rganized crime. And management driven from the top down."
"It was " was my family company. I was out of it," he says. "But that’s what appalled me so much... I did not want my family, my legacy, my father’s legacy to be based upon organized crime."
So, CBS queries, is Bill telling the truth or is he lying to ruin his brother?
Dave nice people you admire. You should read this: Blood and Oil
80 - roger nowosielski
I have that book, BTW. It is a good read.
81 - Irene Wagner
I sew what I rip.
82 - roger nowosielski
The Lent is over, and so is Easter.
Welcome.
83 - Irene Wagner
Clavos: I was scubbing his shower. Scrubbin' the White Man's shower. I don't mind being oppressed, though, because he's, well, MIWASP...talkin' 'bout MI..I..WASP (*background singers*: miwasp)
Cindy, my least favorite part of the acronym was the "W." I'm not going to put up with being called "white" anymore. Dead people are white. A white woman is someone who is too ashamed of her pastiness to show up at the beach. The MIandASP left me kind of cold, too.
What did YOU like about it?
84 - roger nowosielski
Rabid feminism and hatred of life, that's what.
85 - Irene Wagner
Roger, I believe the traditional exclamation at the end of Lent isn't "Lent is over."
It's "Alleluia, He is risen, indeed."
Oh my. How White [sic] Anglo Saxon Protestant of me.
86 - Irene Wagner
Now, now, Roger. Be nice.
Cindy can answer for herself, is she'd like to.
87 - Ruvy
So stay well. I really can't relate to you any longer.
Oh well. Poor Roger lost his sense of humor.
Roger, Obama is still just a piece of shit. That's not a matter of my soul talking. That is just simple truth. You guys are stuck with second-raters all around, starting with Obama and working one's way down. I honestly feel sorry for you Americans - you deserve better.
But history is happening to you. And history is not nice.
88 - zingzing
you should know.
(was that too honest?)
(it was about homelessness.)
(ask god.)
(i have to go to bed.)
(there's no limit to how long this will go on.)
(just ask me.)
(what?)
(i don't know.)
89 - roger nowosielski
Heck of a soliloquy or internal dialogue, zing.
Some lines remind me of "Waiting for Godot."
You are a minimalist.
90 - roger nowosielski
Ruvy,
I don't want to be dumping on you and adding on to other people's comments, but I don't find anything humorous about statements such as "Obama is a piece of shit." And it has nothing to do with Obama, or anybody else for that matter, but indicates (to me) a quality of thinking.
So yes, I cannot relate to statements of that nature. You do understand that by saying such things you do foreclose the possibility of any discussion on the subject - there being only two choices for the respondent, either to agree with you or to walk away.
Roger
91 - Clavos
Perhaps he's just making a statement and is not interested in having a "discussion."
92 - Cindy
Hi Irene,
What did YOU like about it?
I think it pretty accurately describes the historical dominant group that everyone else in the world has been having to struggle with for basic human rights and even survival of the very world. I think of it more loosely though, more like a culture than actual people. Which means that to me not all WASPs are MIWASPS. I also don't think that other people are above causing trouble for their fellow humans. Just that this particular group seems to have dominated the entire planet and caused trouble for every lifeform on it.
For me--not to acknowledge that the dominant purveyors of misery on the planet have been MIWASPS would be to ignore the specific qualities of the culture they created. That means we couldn't know what not to do when trying to repair all their damage. (not sure this is very clear)
That said, I love and support men. Men are some of the very best people I have met. (even white ones :-) Men who are egalitarian and loving, I mean.
93 - Irene Wagner
Cindy, not all IWASPS are MIWASPS. Some who share your (entirely appropriate) concern for human rights would put Madeleine Albrecht and Hilary Clinton in the IWASP category. (WIWASP's? or WIWASA?)
The women from Albrecht and Clinton's grandmas' generation were "suffragettes"--or whatever the politically correct term for them is now. Point being, once representatives from a marginalized group becomes unmarginalized, even well below the "Secretary of State" level, their members are just as likely to continue their climb to the top on the backs of the rest of humanity as their former oppressors were.
..to ignore the specific qualities of the culture they created. That means we couldn't know what not to do when trying to repair all their damage.
No Cindy, it isn't clear. To "repair all the damage" do we 1)Emasculate everyone? 2)or inject them with uberdoses of Melanin? 3)Or make them stop speaking English? or...ooooh, I think I'm getting warmer...4)Make it to be illegal to be Protestant, or Catholic, or Buddhist for that matter? (You'll want to consult a few MIAA's--Kim Jong-il, for example--if you want expertise in THAT area.)
Cindy, I would contend that one way to promote human rights would be to stop pigeon-holing people-- ANY people-- into "bad" categories on the basis of race, gender, religion, or irreligion, if you'd like.
On the other hand, for me to insist that there hasn't been any problem at all from my slice of the cultural pie would be to WAY off the mark, too. You might be heartened to learn, Cindy, that there are significant in that regard.
PS I love men, too. It's impossible to get them to admit they've lost an argument though, isn't it? ;)
94 - Irene Wagner
Must...get...link to post properly before church...
..."significant advances toward self-correction being made in that regard."
95 - Cindy
Irene,
I think FIWASPS would work.
Point being, once representatives from a marginalized group becomes unmarginalized, even well below the "Secretary of State" level, their members are just as likely to continue their climb to the top on the backs of the rest of humanity as their former oppressors were.
Yes! And in this case their model is the MIWASP model. It's that very reason I liked it.
It's where women, once the more peaceful sex, are seen doing a thumbs up next to a corpse in a prison.
This is sort of why I tried to think of it as a culture rather than actual people, but maybe it's more a model. The MIWASPMethod for getting ahead in the world.
96 - Cindy
Irene,
No Cindy, it isn't clear. To "repair all the damage" do we 1)Emasculate everyone? 2)or inject them with uberdoses of Melanin? 3)Or make them stop speaking English? or...ooooh, I think I'm getting warmer...4)Make it to be illegal to be Protestant, or Catholic, or Buddhist for that matter?
It would be hard to emasculate Hillary Clinton. (I'm just guessing here.)
I think maybe the problem itself has something to do with power and wielding it over others. So, I couldn't really advocate doing any of those things.
My guess is that one person at a time will have to change willingly (estimated arrival at loving, just world: 10,000 years). Meantime those who don't want to be subject to abusive power and dominators will have to keep trying to secede from their version of reality and bring as many people with them as possible. (This is what I think today anyway.)
While you wait, Irene, please enjoy this quote by a very funny woman:
All men are not slimy warthogs. Some men are silly giraffes, some woebegone puppies, some insecure frogs. But if one is not careful, those slimy warthogs can ruin it for all the others. - Cynthia Heimel
97 - Ma ® k
...their members are just as likely to continue their climb to the top on the backs of the rest of humanity as their former oppressors were.
Why is this? Maybe we (even atheists!) can identify causes of this pattern and change. The whole master/slave sadomasochist thing makes people nuts.
Maybe 10,000 years; maybe tomorrow...(or next week)
98 - Cindy
nice... :-)
99 - Dave Nalle
But Dave! Fred Koch, founder of Koch Industries, co-founded JBS. You said the Kochs were..."Then as now, the Kochs were primarily interested in promoting freedom..."
Cindy, Fred Koch has been dead since 1967. All my dealings and experiences with the Kochs have been with his sons, primarily Charles and David, neither of whom has any involvement with the JBS.
Imagine Dave, being so absolutely depraved by greed and power that even with multiple billions of bucks, you'd spend your life trying to destroy your only brother to get ahead of him in the power game.
Cindy, there are FOUR Koch brothers. They had a falling out over how the business was being run and ended up reaching a settlement which let Fred Jr. and Bill go off and sail their yachts and hobnob with other wealthy folks while Charles and David ran the business.
So, CBS queries, is Bill telling the truth or is he lying to ruin his brother?
Bill Koch has sour grapes, in other words. What a shocker.
Dave nice people you admire. You should read this: Blood and Oil
My only direct experience of them has been their philanthropy. From that perspective where the money came from or how it was earned is largely irrelevant.
Dave
100 - Dave Nalle
And Cindy, why do you hate people who are successful? Why do you want to tear down those who have accomplished something in the world?
Dave
101 - Cindy
Cindy, there are FOUR Koch brothers.
So, four times the fun for them!
Dave, If Jack the Ripper were to give all his money to causes you liked, would you be able to say, "I only dealt with him as a philanthropist." ???
102 - Cindy
Dave,
I am going to think about #100 and not be a smart aleck and give you a real answer. (Right after I go for a walk.)
103 - Cindy
Dave,
...why do you hate people who are successful? Why do you want to tear down those who have accomplished something in the world?
I guess it boils down to this:
I don't believe people are innately capable of only self-interest. I think people are capable of cooperation too. I think the potential for either is there.
I don't agree with the free market ideology because it starts with that premise--that self-interested is what we do best and therefore what is best to be. It gives people license to be self-serving at the expense of their fellow humans.
So, when we do things: raise children and educate them, design systems (economic or others) that help people realize their potential for self-interest rather than cooperation, we are destructive to life.
The people you call successful are the ones who perfect this model of self-interest. What they have accomplished is to take the world farther away from cooperation.
I'm sure you can't see what I'm saying unless you remember what you thought when you were in college.
104 - roger nowosielski
Self-interest, if not too narrowly defined, and cooperation are not necessarily mutually exclusive endeavors.
105 - Cindy
Actually, I think they are inseparable.
106 - Ruvy
Perhaps he's just making a statement and is not interested in having a "discussion."
Pay attention to Clavos, Roger. He and I have butted horns before - and have had discussions before. He knows me a lot better than you do.
107 - roger nowosielski
Well, Ruvy. I am well aware you're making a statement. But how does that change anything?