Unlike Mitt Romney, the Rev. Huckabee fails the Christian litmus test.
Rev. Mike Huckabee is supposed to be the most adamant, pure Christian candidate in the race for President. But I think Huckabee seems to be the least truly Christian in the Republican field. I might cite several grounds for that, but mostly I'm saying this because of the sleazy and underhanded way he's demagogically using his religion specifically against Mitt Romney.…
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— go to most recent comments126 - Austin
Ty is exactly right. And the only controversial Mormon question left to consider is pertaining to Blacks and the Priesthood.
4. The Priesthood (ie: Power and authorithy to act in God's name) has always been given selectively to God's children. In the old Testament it was only given to the prophet. There was a period of time when among all of the 12 tribes of Israel it was given only to the Levites through Aaron and his sons. When Christ was on the earth he gave it only to his apostles.
We are not about to discuss why God does this because no one knows the mind of God and no one knows why He does what He does. But who are we to question Him?
127 - Jacob
“The bible teaches plainly that God has sanctioned righteous men to take more than one wife at times in history (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and others). So apparently the God of Christians and the God of Mormons is a lot more similar than most people tend to admit.”
“ the God of Christians and the God of Mormons is a lot more similar than most people tend to admit”?
False.
Polygamy is not part of the New Testament Covenant which defines Christians. Polygamy was picked up centuries later by the Muslims. So the Mormons and the Muslims are the ones who are similar in that sense.
128 - El Bicho
Don't change the goal posts, Al. You wrote "the least hint of impropriety in anything Mitt Romney has ever done in life." Not "the worst shit ever."
Besides, I never said Romney lying about his father marching with MLK was the worst shit. I had already pointed that out with his involvement in a racist religion, which you were noticeably silent on.
I am hearing stories that the welcoming of African Americans into their flock was either God finally deciding in 1978 that blacks were equal to whites and informing the Mormon president, or the Mormon church was concerned about losing their tax-exempt status. Hmm, I know which I believe.
It's not bogus shit that Romney is a habitual liar about his resume in order to attract voters whether it be the NRA, being a hunter, and now lying about his father's involvement with MLK. Don't you find "the least hint of impropriety" in those tactics?
The one good thing to come of this is Romney going to the Clinton handbook and claiming it depends on what the definition "saw" is. How laughable. Surely, honest conservatives will call him out like they did Clinton regarding what the definition of "is" is.
129 - Jacob
Mitt Romney's Hypocrisy...
1. China's top refiner Sinopec will nearly triple its imports of Iranian crude next year.
2. The Iranian government and China's biggest offshore oil producer, CNOOC, have signed a $16 billion natural gas deal,
3. LUKoil will sign a contract to give it a role in producing oil from Iran's Azadegan field.
What do Sinopec Corp, CNOOC, and LUKoil have to do with Mitt Romney?
Romney makes a profit on these investments while he calls for others to disinvest...
130 - Al Barger
Bicho, nothing you're showing me so far is looking like anything substantially bad from Romney. But OK, I'll concede in advance that if we go over everything this guy has done in life with a fine tooth comb, you'd likely find one or two times where he's overstated something or done something in business that looks bad. For all have sinned and fell short of the glory of God.
I don't know why you hate this guy so bad, though. What's your problem?
131 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Ruvy- Divinity aside, what would be your beef with Jesus as a role model? You're saying that he wasn't simply not your promised messiah, but actually a bad person of weak character?
Ferget messiah. And ferget divinity!! All Jesus did, assuming he lived, was tell his friends (before he got executed by the Romans) to bring all those who wouldn't follow him (or who would deny him - I forget the exact wording) before him to be slain.
The rest of the writers of your Book left enough anti-Jewish slander in there to insure that all of Jesus' co-religionists would be persecuted. And we have been for at least 1,700 years.
As for miracles - go check out the story of Elisha. For the most part, everything that Elisha did was also credited to Jesus.
Sorry to rain on the big Birthday celebration and all, but I don't admire this babe. You can if you want, though. That's your privilege.
132 - Jacob
“All Jesus did, assuming he lived, was tell his friends (before he got executed by the Romans) to bring all those who wouldn't follow him (or who would deny him - I forget the exact wording) before him to be slain."
-- Ruvy
Where did you read that?
BTW, if Jesus didn’t live, what makes you think that Elisha did?
133 - Al Barger
Bicho, Jacob et al: Does this satisfy you as to George Romney's involvement with MLK, or do you still want to keep bleating that his boy's a "liar" -
Romney website
FACT: In The Summer Of 1963, Governor Romney Participated In Martin Luther King Jr.'s "Freedom Marches" In Grosse Pointe, Michigan.
In 1963, George Romney Gave The Keynote Address At The Conference That Sparked The Martin Luther King "Freedom Marches" In Detroit. "The establishment of these human relations groups came in the wake of several major events (besides the embarrassing racist practices of such suburbs as Dearborn), which took place in 1963 and helped galvanize interracial support and cooperation for integrated housing. The first event was the Metropolitan Conference on Open Occupancy held in Detroit in January 1963. The second event was the Martin Luther King 'Freedom' March in June of the same year, the spinoffs of which were several Detroit NAACP-sponsored interracial marches into Detroit suburbs to dramatize the need for black housing. ... Governor George Romney gave the keynote speech at this conference, in which he pledged to use the power of the state to achieve housing equality in Michigan." (Joe T. Darden, Detroit, Race And Uneven Development, 1987, p. 132)
Governor Romney Marched In July 1963 In An NAACP-Sponsored March Through Grosse Pointe. "The next couple of NAACP marches into the suburbs were more pleasant. Both Grosse Pointe and Royal Oak Township welcomed the interracial marchers. Close to 500 black and white marchers, including many Grosse Pointers, marched in 'the Pointes' that July. Governor George Romney made a surprise appearance in his shirt sleeves and joined the parade leaders." (Joe T. Darden, Detroit, Race And Uneven Development, 1987, p. 132)
- Detroit Free Press: "With Gov. Romney a surprise arrival and marching in the front row, more than 500 Negroes and whites staged a peaceful antidiscrimination parade up Grosse Pointe's Kercheval Avenue Saturday. ... 'the elimination of human inequalities and injustices is our urgent and critical domestic problem,' the governor said. ... [Detroit NAACP President Edward M.] Turner told reporters, 'I think it is very significant that Governor Romney is here. We are very surprised.' Romney said, 'If they want me to lead the parade, I'll be glad to.'" ("Romney Joins Protest March Of 500 In Grosse Pointe," Detroit Free Press, 6/29/63)
- In Their 1967 Book, Stephen Hess And David Broder Wrote That George Romney "Marched With Martin Luther King Through The Exclusive Grosse Point Suburb Of Detroit." "He has marched with Martin Luther King through the exclusive Grosse Pointe suburb of Detroit and he is on record in support of full-coverage Federal open-housing legislation." (Stephen Hess And David Broder, The Republican Establishment: The Present And Future Of The G.O.P., 1967, p. 107)
134 - Jacob
“Jacob... Does this satisfy you as to George Romney's involvement with MLK, or do you still want to keep bleating that his boy's a "liar"
-- Al Barger
Why are you asking me? I never wrote a word about iMLK,
Get your facts straight before YOU bleat.
135 - Al Barger
Sorry Jacob, guess you're on the "hypocrisy" and "not a Christian" beats. I get lost amidst all the different strains of Romney hating swirling around.
136 - Jacob
I don't hate Romney. I just dislike hypocrisy. I also dislike fawning over a hypocrite.
137 - handyguy
As I've said before [and as Al conveniently continues to ignore], Romney exploited both sides of gay-rights issues before and after becoming governor. He didn't just "change his mind" - he deliberately staked out politically advantageous positions that are near polar opposites. He's 100% virgin acrylic.
Here are a couple of choice bits from the well-publicized "anti-endorsement" from today's Concord (NH) Monitor:
If you followed only his tenure as governor of Massachusetts, you might imagine Romney as a pragmatic moderate with liberal positions on numerous social issues and an ability to work well with Democrats. If you followed only his campaign for president, you'd swear he was a red-meat conservative, pandering to the religious right, whatever the cost. Pay attention to both, and you're left to wonder if there's anything at all at his core.
As a candidate for the U.S. Senate in 1994, he boasted that he would be a stronger advocate of gay rights than his opponent, Ted Kennedy. These days, he makes a point of his opposition to gay marriage and adoption.
138 - Al Barger
Handyguy, it's possible that he has flip-flopped on some gay issues. He's certainly changed the tone of his rhetoric. Just recognizing professional necessity, I'll cut any politician pretty much slack for a difference in tone or style.
But for me to buy the charge of flip-flopping, I'll need you to show me quotes or votes from pre-presidential Mitt that are directly in conflict with proposals he supports now. He was pro-gay in a general way and all, but did he ever in fact support gay marriage?
I wouldn't necessarily hold it that badly against him if he in fact changed his position on a couple of marginal governing issues like gay rights or stem cell research just on a basis of political expediency. That's starting to get a little sleazy, and it can be a real slippery slope. But it's not the worst thing in the world. Show me a direct policy contradiction though, and I'll dock him a couple of points.
What would be really bad flip flopping would be really and truly offering policy proposals as a presidential candidate exactly opposite of your record, especially on major issues of taxes and spending. For example, if you were a tax and spend governor who raised taxes and then ran for president claiming that you want to abolish income taxes altogether - THAT would be just saying anything to get elected. You just KNOW that guy is a lying sleazebag.
139 - handyguy
I'll put into simpler terms for clarity's sake:
He posed as a moderate in the 1994 senatorial and 2002 gubernatorial elections. He poses now as the 'real conservative' among the leading contenders [meaning on social issues primarily, but also saying idiotic things such as that he'd like to double the size of Guantanamo].
Was the previous Mitt real or is the current one? If you believe both are real, so be it. I find the notion laughable, and I tend to believe that neither is 'real.'
140 - Al Barger
Handyguy, so far I don't see where Romney's really changed that much in his actual positions on the issues, other than specifically abortion - not that I necessarily agree with any of his positions. But I don't so far see what these big differences are between then and now.
Of course, Romney was trying to make himself broadly sound more moderate to liberal in Massachusetts, but wishes to use more conservative rhetoric to express fairly similar programs when running nationally. How exactly is that bad? Is it illegitimate for a politician to try to make his proposals sound good to his voting constituency?
Ya know, you Romney hatas are driving people to him. You know that don't you? Especially because Romney is so obviously basically clean and above board and tries to play nice. Then y'all come in hatin' on him. Does he represent some unresolved Oedipal dramas you be experiencing, or what?
I didn't really give a rat's ass about Romney when I wrote this. He was mostly meant here to be a point of contrast to help me explain why I so disapprove of Huckabee. But the more you hate on this nice fellow with little legitimate reason, the more sympathetic I become to the idea of an Osmond family president.
I'd definitely rather see their somewhat bland but healthy and wholesome presence every day than four more years of the Clinton marital psychodrama. Is it really that fascinating to merit a sequel? The most likely seeming fall matchup at this point seems to be Clinton vs Romney. Would we vote for the Osmonds or Bill & Hill's trailer park relationship, part 2?
141 - Jacob
"Of course, Romney was trying to make himself broadly sound more moderate to liberal in Massachusetts, but wishes to use more conservative rhetoric to express fairly similar programs when running nationally. How exactly is that bad?"
It's bad because it's hypocritical.
Romney is an opportunist.
142 - El Bicho
"nothing you're showing me so far is looking like anything substantially bad from Romney."
Really? If you don't think being a member of a religion that finds one race not equal to another is bad, then there's not much point in continuing the discussion. I had thought it was either laziness in your research or dishonesty, but apparently you agree with the sentiment.
I will again note that you have mischaracterized my statements, so I am not clear if you are a liar yourself or have poor reading comprehension. I never said George Romney was not involved in civil rights. I said that Mitt lied when he said he saw his father march with MLK.
The only evidence you cite that proves it happened is a book written four years after the fact, but King never marched in Grosse Pointe, according to the Grosse Pointe Historical Society, and had not appeared in the town at all at the time the Broder book was published. “I’m quite certain of that,” says Suzy Berschback, curator of the Grosse Pointe Historical Society. You probably shouldn't trust the website of a liar.
By the way, I don't hate Romney for being a racist and a liar. That's as flawed as the rest of your analysis. To quote Mr. T, "I pity the fool."
143 - Jacob
The fact that Mike Huckabee, recently gave the Sunday sermon at a San Antonio mega-church led by the pastor John Hagee, a rabidly pro-war religious leader who has long been advocating a preemptive war against Iran, should be enough to cause anyone with a modicum of brain tissue to take their support of Huckabee elsewhere.
Vote for Huckabee and you might get Secretary of Defense John Hagee.
Then you will yearn for the good old days of George W. Bush.
144 - Al Barger
Jacob- Now you're starting to make Huckabee sound good. I could do without Hagee's Catholic bashing, but the part of him being a superhawk tends to slightly make Huckabee sound better to me by positive association. One of the main policy type differences I would have with Huckabee is his foreign policy.
Besides the fact that he has no experience in international affairs, his general approach seems to be mostly to try to sound like Jimmy Carter. He wants to be a peacemaker with a humble foreign policy and all that other FAG nonsense. But if I started thinking that President Huckabee might act like a proper crazy backwoods apocalyptic preacher ready to go all Old Testament on some deserving Muslim-Arab schmucks, that'd cause me to look at him more favorably. I bet Elmer Gantry could have preached hellfire and brimstone to some mullahs and put the fear of the One True God (Yahweh) into their heathen souls.
145 - Al Barger
Yo, Brother Bicho- What's with all that hostility there brother? And on Christmas Eve at that. You need to get you some fiber right away, or you're not going to get a visit from Mr Hankey.
No, sorry, but I'm not really going to wet my pants in outrage that the church Romney grew up in didn't used to want to play with the black folks. It's not like they were lynching black folks, like a lot of good Southern Baptists were. Not wanting to let the black kids play with them was a less than impressive aspect of early Mormonism, but not the worst abuse ever committed by an American religious group.
And that surely wasn't Mitt Romney's doing. George Romney led civil rights marches supporting MLK, from which I don't think it's that much of a stretch to say that Dad walked with MLK. He certainly did participate in MLK's movement and walked in support of him - whether they managed to actually walk in the same specific march or not - which he might well have.
So apparently the Romney family didn't like that bad racial thing about their church, and worked around it personally, and were obviously glad when God gave their church a revelation, or however exactly that goes.
Also sorta sounds like Romney senior would have been using his clout and influence to convince God to give his church better guidance. Something like that. I just know that the Romney family has no reputation for being anything but sympathetic and supportive of black folk, regardless of the personal prejudices of Joseph Smith.
If we're supposed to be SO sensitive about saying anything positive about someone who has a religion that even used to be racist, does that apply across the board? Would a Muslim be out of the question, on account of, you know, wanting to kill Jews and other infidels? Of course the Old Testament had God promoting a whole lot of killing based strictly on race and ethnicity, ie wipe out every man, woman and child in this city, so sayeth Yahweh.
So would Christians and Jews automatically be outside the pale along with Mormons?
Does this lack of outrage prove something bad about me to not be worth talking to? I mean, I must be stupid or a liar to not be mad about whatever you think is so awful.
But I still don't think you and Jacob are so particularly distressed by any supposed offensive action, but by some weird malicious hatred for the guy. What in God's green Earth did Mitt Romney ever do that was bad enough to earn this ridiculous animosity?
146 - Jacob
John Hagee is advocating a preemptive war against Iran which the last time I checked is not Arab.
But it appears that facts don’t interfere with what you write.
147 - Jacob
But I still don't think you and Jacob are so particularly distressed...
Your only phrase that makes any sense here is -- “I still don't think.”
148 - Al Barger
Jacob- Do you really think that you're proving anything with this mindless hostility? Do you think that any of your hatin' constitutes any form of civic discourse, or that it would cause anyone to change their thinking about who to support for president? And absolutely on Christmas morning at that.
149 - Dave Nalle
Civic discourse? You guys are talking about urban issues? Or is it that you're talking about Japanese cars?
Dave
150 - bliffle
Are we now imposing a religious test on candidates for office? Isn't that forbidden someplace?
151 - Al Barger
Bliffle, a couple of these cats seem to be bent on beating up Romney for being a Mormon. Still, I find it hard to believe that they're quite that crazed over the Osmond religion. They generally seem to be one of the top American religious communities that tends to work and play well with others. Seems like there's got to be some other reason why they're so hateful with Romney.
They might's well get over it, cause I suspect that Romney's in fact going to be the next president. I suspect that the editors of the Concord Monitor are thinking the same thing.
152 - bliffle
It's also been my personal experience that mormons are fine members of society, honest and trustworthy.
But didn't Romney say "...you have to have religion to have freedom"?
153 - Jacob
There is nothing religious about the choice between Romney and Huckabee.
Romney is a hypocrite and an opportunist. He will say anything to get elected,
Huckabee associates with a demagogue like Hagee who wants to start a preemptive war with Iran.
Anyone who wants either one as president can take their pick.
Just stop whining.
154 - Al Barger
Bliffle, Romney traveled in the basic bromide that's been on a lot of lips since the founding of the republic about needing general godliness in our government- and went out of his way to individually praise most all of the main faiths. Some crybaby atheists got all huffy because he didn't specifically say anything affirming their merits, or something like that.
But Romney also said very clearly when asked about it by Tim Russert that OF COURSE there are plenty of atheists who are good, moral people, and that religious belief or lack of it was not a job consideration.
In short, neither Mitt Romney nor his father before him have ever been known to engage in bigotry or traffic in hatefulness to get elected. These Romney's look like some of the cleanest and nicest players in the big leagues, so far as I've seen.
Now, how much I might agree with his policies might be a very different question, but he seems squeaky clean and thoroughly vetted on a personal level. From the point of view of frustrating the Clinton attack machine in the fall, surely Mitt would be about the toughest Republican to dirty up. This guy's just not going to give them much sleaze to work with.
155 - Winghunter
Well, Al sure got the Hucksters number down pat BUT, he doesn't have the first clue who Romney is at all. The build-up of Willard Romney he gave made the skin on my back crawl.
After you read these, yours will also. Candidate Research - Take The Search Out of Research.
156 - Al Barger
Winghunter, your allergic reactions sound rough. Perhaps you could get some kind of skin cream. However, they do not constitute evidence of wrongdoing from Romney.
Perhaps you could break it down more specifically. Give us one specific disreputable thing that he's done - not some vague generality about supposedly being willing to say anything. Here's a bill that he supported in the legislature, here's where he ripped off a pension fund - something specific.
You don't need to get everything at once. Just show me some specific significantly disreputable thing that he's done, and I'll start marking him down some.
Again, I don't necessarily support his policies and have no particular intention of voting for him. But he surely looks like one of the most scrupulous and unassailable people you could ask for on a personal level. Show me where I'm wrong.
157 - R.C.
Well, truly, Huckabee is unethical, sleazy, a bit dim, and a bit of a demagogue. Well, that's Arkansas politics for you.
Nevertheless, Romney's not quite my candidate either. His tale of conversion to the conservative view on various conservative issues rings false to me, and a Johnny-Come-Lately, while better than an economic liberal like Huckabee, is nevertheless less than ideal.
I'm voting for Fred Thompson. Not that I think he'll get the nomination. He came in too casually, and he doesn't lust for the power of the presidency with that fervent half-crazed ambition which marks Huckabee or McCain, or the kind of shrewd calculation which marks Romney. (To me, the fact that he lacks THAT kind of "fire in the belly" is a plus...but the Mainstream Media disagrees, and as we all know, it's easier to recover from BAD coverage than NO coverage!)
But I prefer Fred over Mitt or Rudy or John or Mike or Ron because he's a long-time conservative; his only variation from conservative principles has to do with his non-support for a pro-life amendment, but his reason for not supporting it is...federalism, which is ANOTHER conservative principle. I prefer a guy who wanders off the reservation because of allegiance to another part of the reservation, over guys who only wandered on to the reservation when it became politically expedient.
And, unlike Al Gore and Hillary, you get the sense that if Fred were to win the nomination, but NOT win the presidency, he wouldn't go slightly insane. It's not a part of how he defines himself; it's not his lifelong ambition. I think Huck and McCain lean that direction. Al Gore certainly went 'round the bend after he lost. Remember the beard and hot-tub thing? (Shudder!)
So in short, Fred's a craggy old guy who'd make a better candidate if he had some of Romney's looks and some of McCain's fire. But those are the best downsides to be found in a GOP field full of imperfect candidates. If we could play Mr. Potato Head with the candidates, I'd say it's Fred who lacks the most parts. So he gets my (probably pointless) vote.
158 - R.C.
I meant to say, at the end of my note, "...lacks the LEAST parts."
Yeesh. You type an otherwise decent post, and blow it in the next-to-last sentence. Argh.
Anyway, I think you folks probably knew what I was trying to say.
159 - Al Barger
RC- On policy substance, I'm inclined to favor Thompson the most - though that vote for McCain-Feingold is a significant black mark, and a direct contradiction of his FREDeralism. But almost as important as policy, I double-plus agree with your positive take on Fred Thompson's lack of burning personal need to be president. He definitely seems like the major contender (other than Ron Paul) distinctly least anxious to boss people around.
160 - Irene Wagner
Ruvy in #131: Reading something from "the devil's advocate" position might make for a more robust presentation of the Jewish Understanding of Messiah. I stop into BC from time to time to see if you've written that article yet!
I haven't forgotten about what happened to your family during the Holocaust. I would've quit being a Christian long ago if I didn't understand the distinction between Christ and Christians. One is Perfection. The others are at best works in progress. At worst they are malicious imposters, the "Christian" moral equivalent of the "Jews" I've heard you describe in other posts as "kikes."
Even during this Christmas season, I feel soured about American Christianity--but not about Jesus. Ron Paul recently repeated a prophecy, attributed to Sinclair Lewis: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." American Christians have a right and duty to participate in the political process. As soon as the motivation for that participation shifts from "service" to "will to power," however, they've stopped following Christ and have, perhaps unwittingly, through the deception from "wolves in sheep's clothing" become disciples of Nietzsche.
161 - Jacob
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross."
Fascism has come to America in the form of the neoconservatives.
But I don't see Norman Podhoretz carrying a cross.
162 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Irene,
Messianic Redemption has nothing to do with "individual salvation" which is the hallmark of Christianity. In addition, it has little to do with the Book of Revelation. Messianic Redemption is simply when the messiah shows up, fights the necessary wars to get us Children of Israel out of the shit-sling we've stuck ourselves in, and sets up a confrontation between G-d and the armies of the nations.
And the battle is not fought at Mt. Megiddo, it is fought south of the Walled City of Jerusalem, in the Valley of G-d's Judgment 'Émeq Yehoshafát.
How fast all these events occur is not clear from the prophetic text, but from some of the things I've seen, they occur relatively quickly.
After this occurs, the messiah (or maybe G-d) puts the yétzer har'á "the evil inclination", beyond the reach of humans. This is when the process of judgment begins, and when the process of repairing the world also begins.
If you are indeed a good person, you will merit seeing Redemption happen in front of you. The events of the next little while will be as scary as all hell, and only an open mind expecting the unexpected, and your own love of G-d, will keep you sane. As I may have mentioned to you, at some point you will doubt Christianity. Just hold on to the Seven Commandments of Noah, and you'll be alright.
163 - Jacob
"How fast all these events occur is not clear from the prophetic text..."
What also is not clear is -- why have there been no prophets since Hanani?
164 - Al Barger
No prophets since Hanani other than Joseph Smith, you mean?
165 - Jacob
Joseph Smith... the guy who liked teen-age girls?
166 - Clavos
"Joseph Smith... the guy who liked teen-age girls?"
Cute, but ignores the fact that Joseph Smith lived in the 19th century, an era when adolescence was the age when most girls got married, often as young as thirteen and fourteen.
It was the standard of the day, so Joseph Smith was conventional in the context of his era.
I've noticed your propensity for ignoring context on other threads, too.
167 - Jacob
Clavos...
It was not considered proper in 1840's America for a foster father to secretly have sex with his teenage foster daughters - and Joseph Smith did that twice with both the Lawrence and Partridge sisters. It was not considered proper for a self-proclaimed religious pastor to secretly have sex with his housemaids. It was not considered proper for anyone, let alone a "prophet" who had publicly banned polygamy in his church charter, to secretly proposition other men's wives, even telling them that unless he could "marry" (have intercourse with) them, that an angel would murder him. It was not considered proper for any man to slander women who rejected his sexual advances, as Joseph did with Nancy Rigdon and Sarah Pratt. It was not considered proper for any 38 year old to secretly have sex with a fourteen year old, and in so doing, consign her to a life of loneliness. The truth is, according to the standards of the time, Joseph's character must be - and was - regarded by most as nothing short of loathsome.
168 - Irene Wagner
Jacob: Podhoretz carrying a cross, no, I can't picture it either.
Gary Bauer, Dan Qualye, William Bennet and Jeb Bush carrying a cross, that I CAN see, and I bet you can, too.
Scroll to the bottom of The Statement of Principle for PNAC (Project for a New American Century) and see who signed on to this manifesto of neoconservatism with Podhoretz.
And don't get Ruvy (a Jew) in Jerusalem started on Podhoretz. I doubt he's much of a fan of him either!
Ruvy-- I've probably broken all Seven of them, in spirit if not in actual letter, and I know myself too well to say it won't happen again. I need a Saviour. :) Thanks for your views on eschatology. It's an interesting topic. Well, later folks.
169 - Jacob
“Gary Bauer, Dan Qualye, William Bennet and Jeb Bush carrying a cross, that I CAN see, and I bet you can, too.”
No, I can’t.
Not unless it’s a cross of gold.... which could be transferred into their personal bank accounts.
170 - Al Barger
Jacob sez: "Joseph Smith... the guy who liked teen-age girls?"
You say that as if that were a BAD thing.
171 - Jacob
The question Al Barger raises is whether he is secretly having sex with his teenage foster daughters.
172 - Irene Wagner
Yes, Jacob, but for a singnificant segment of the voting population, a cross is a cross--the composition isn't even a consideration. It certainly wasn't for uber-Fundy Bob Jones III when he decided to back LDS Mitt Romney, nor is it one for Christians who have blindly swallowed neoconservative idealogy solely because kingpins of the Christian Religious Right e.g. Gary Bauer, were its promoters.
I don't know if by your statement, "I can't see Norman Podhoretz carrying a cross" you meant to suggest that Jews are solely responsible for getting neoconservativism adopted as American foreign policy, and I'm sorry if I misunderstood your intent.
Fact is, too many people really DO believe that about Jews and neoconservativism. Not only is this belief inaccurate, the people who have noised it abroad are playing into the hands of those who would try to silence, through accusations of anti-Semitism, those who would attempt to expose the errors of neoconservatism.
173 - Irene Wagner
Hark, I sense a comment editor approaching. FYI Chris---I got a couple of technical errors when I posted the first one, so, thinking it hadn't taken, I posted it again after taking out the third set of HTML markups. I don't know what caused the third posting. Sorry about that.
174 - Jacob
Irene --
Fact is, about half the signers of the PNAC appear to be Jews. I don’t know if they are -- but why does it bother you?
If the other half of the PNAC neoconservatives are “Christian”, are you saying it is anti-Christian to point that out?
175 - Al Barger
Brother Jacob wishes to accuse me of perverted sexual proclivities. Not that I would necessarily deny such a thing, but there does seem to be something rather more unhealthy in his apparently rather detailed interest in the supposed love life of some dude from 150 years ago.
I don't wish to condemn anyone's academic interests, but perhaps it would be healthier for Jacob to get some rather than worrying himself about the moral lapses of long dead prophets.
By the way, I'll note that a lot of Biblical heroes and prophets had far worse histories. You could start with King David purposely sending a man absolutely to his death so he could do the widow. On that scale, Joseph Smith would not particularly be among the worst of the Christian prophets.