Unlike Mitt Romney, the Rev. Huckabee fails the Christian litmus test.
Rev. Mike Huckabee is supposed to be the most adamant, pure Christian candidate in the race for President. But I think Huckabee seems to be the least truly Christian in the Republican field. I might cite several grounds for that, but mostly I'm saying this because of the sleazy and underhanded way he's demagogically using his religion specifically against Mitt Romney.…
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— go to most recent comments76 - Mormons ARE Christian
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused by Evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion. This article helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity's comprehension of baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement.
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) adheres more closely to First Century Christianity and the New Testament than any other denomination. For example, Harper's Bible Dictionary entry on the Trinity says "the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament."
I agree with your reasoning that Evangelical pastors denigrate the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) to protect their flock (and their livelihood).
77 - Dave Nalle
Mathew, it's only not hypocrisy if you BELIEVE Romney's statements that he's changed his views for any reason other than getting elected. I don't.
As for the issue of whether Mormons are Christians or not, from the point of view of the more extreme evangelical sects episcopalians, lutherans, orthodoxl, catholic and a variety of other Christian sects aren't actually Christian as they define it.
Dave
78 - Al Barger
Dave, perhaps you could write us up an article explaining exactly what these Romney flip-flops are, cause I'm mostly not seeing them. Other than that he flat changed his mind on abortion, I'm not seeing where he's dramatically changed his policy positions. I watched Russert work on him for an hour (and I would LOVE to watch he peel the bark off the Huckster), and even Tim Russert couldn't get too much on him.
That's not to say that I support Romney, or necessarily AGREE with any of his positions - but I just don't see where he's been that egregious with the flippin and the floppin.
79 - bethtopaz
I would love to see Russert interview Huckabee again, too, but he's too chicken to go on.
He is so soft on immigration that Gilchrist is now thinking of withdrawing his support.
He comes out with this ultra-strong plan on immigration in the last week or so (which came straight out of the pages of a two year old National Review magazine, according to Rich Lowry).
The real flipper is the Huckster.
80 - Irene Wagner
Rod Johnson - I suppose that other than Jesus and the person who claims to know Him, there's no other being born of woman who knows for sure the authenticity of a man's relationship with God. King David, presumed upon his position as "a man after God's own heart" and became an adulterer, a murderer, and a liar...and then experienced forgiveness, and was used by God to give us *Psalm 51.
I haven't found anything in the Nicene Creed to which you linked that "ain't Bible," and yet many people who recite it every Sunday aren't even sure they believe in God.
Jesus said "ye must be born again," but right after that: "the wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and wither it goeth: so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." So, being "born again" seems to be a rather mysterious experience, differing from person to person, doesn't it?
It's a huge paradigm shift to switch from a worldview that doesn't include God (the worldview of professing atheists and even some who still claim membership in one religious organization or another) to a worldview founded upon the belief, growing over the years like a plant (including winters of doubt) that God is real and active in the world and in one's life. The religious organization that served as "midwife" for that paradigm shift tends to be the one whose theology one accepts as Truth, at least at first. That's only natural.
The Bible* says there is no one, NO ONE, who comes to God with a contrite heart who is turned away. I can't find any qualifications as to the level of doctrinal purity required. Quite the opposite: the one to be forgiven and embraced by God must come to Him as a little child.
In a lifetime no one can comprehend the height, breadth, width of the love that drove Jesus to the Cross. I know it extends much farther than any Christian alive today can imagine. That doesn't mean we don't warn people that there is a Day of Reckoning coming, and tell people, gently and respectfully, what we believe about Jesus.
The Judgment Day is going to be scary, but I rejoice that I get to stand in line waiting my turn rather than having to sit as Judge. That's Jesus' job, and he knows the secrets of men's hearts better than I ever could.
That is a very good question by the way, Rod Johnson--and Al Barger, you have a thought-provoking web-page about faith that I wish I'd looked at before before I made the snarky remark about mud-wrestling (#52).
Merry Christmas one and all, and don't forget that RON PAUL BUMPER STICKERS make terrific stocking stuffers!
81 - RJ Elliott
"Believing in magic, fairies, juju, moroni, yahweh or any other fantasy ought to disqualify you from the presidency"
Dave, most Americans believe in God and are Christians. Just because you are an atheist/agnostic and view Christianity as a fairy tale doesn't change the fact that most Americans heartily disagree. And in a democracy, those Americans get to cast votes that count just as much as yours. And some of these voters will likely cast their votes based upon this issue (for better or for worse). Denying this fact is to deny an important political reality. So this is certainly a topic worthy of discussion, especially with elections right around the corner.
(BTW, I'm agnostic, and I'm pretty sure Al is as well.)
82 - RJ Elliott
re: #54
Ruvy,
Gee, doesn't Israel have religion(Judaism)-based political parties? ;-)
83 - RJ Elliott
"you'd be hard pressed to find the least hint of impropriety in anything Mitt Romney has ever done in life."
You mean other than being a member of a religion that discriminated against blacks until 1978?
From Barack Hussein Obama's church:
Sounds very diverse!
84 - RJ Elliott
"He is so soft on immigration that Gilchrist is now thinking of withdrawing his support."
I was unaware of this, so I looked it up. Thanks.
Here's the story.
85 - Irene Wagner
RJ: I've always felt welcome in the Black Churches I've visited. One of them even had an organ riff played before the name of each visitor as it was announced, including mine. The Black Worship experience has certain distinctives that would be lost--there is no other music like Black Gospel--if it were just absorbed into another (also worth preserving) expression of Christianity, such as "Smells and Bells" High Church Anglicanism, for instance.
86 - El Bicho
The discussion was about Romney not Obama, RJ. Is your reading comprehension that poor?
87 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
At @82:
Gee, doesn't Israel have religion(Judaism)-based political parties? ;-)
Of course we do. Here, we come right out and say so: there is the National Religious Party, the Flag of the Torah, etc. In addition, we Jews are chock full of atheists, agnostics and just plain G-d haters, in addition to fools who think that shaking and praying is the only solution to bringing about Redemption - if they even understand what Redemption really means.
The national anthem, (haTikvá, The Hope) talks about the soul of the Jew. No Arab Israeli can sing that song and ever mean it. The Zionist State of Israel is meant to be a Jewish State, and there is just no getting around that fact.
So, don't compare us to you. Your country was founded by Deists and Theists who essentially incorporated the Laws of Noah and their spirit into their constitutions and laws. Having wandered from those laws, Americans have lost their way and lost their blessing from G-d, the blessing you sang about in your childhood in America the Beautiful and G-d Bless America. Your nation pretends to be non-religious, and you have oodles of people there (including American Jews) who are invested in the reality of that pretense.
88 - Irene Wagner
El Bicho. #83 wasn't a non sequitur. The flow of this thread has been alternating all along between candidate-bashing and religion-bashing. #83 was a hybrid of these elements, being composed of LDS Church-defense, Romney-defense, and Black-Church-bashing, and only by extension of the Black-Church-bashing, Obama-bashing.
89 - Al Barger
Miss Irene- I thank you for your testimony and thoughtful comments. You're definitely representing better than average for some of the Christians here, and well above the average for a lot of the Ron Paul supporters we've seen in these parts this year.
Brother Elliott might be pushing the point a little bit in comparing the quasi-racialist creed of Obama's church with the openly exclusionary history of the LDS. Still, shoehorning that kind of racial stuff into religion is just not good.
But of course, there are black churches and then there are black churches. I'm glad of the black churches and their music, which music has certainly provided me much spiritual sustenance. I've got the Dunham Jubilee Singers dreaming of the judgment morning right now. I think it's going to be Sister Rosetta for breakfast. There's a world of difference between a Christian church that has mostly black congregants and style vs Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson's political demagoguery dressed up as religion.
Also, if we're going to smack Romney around because the LDS was exclusionary to blacks, then certainly Rev Huckabee among others should get to answer just about as much. White Christians in the South were often not any bit better about their treatment of blacks. I'm pretty sure there were a lot of sincere Baptists under them Klan robes - and probably few if any Mormons.
90 - rather agravated
"Is Mormonism Christian?" is a very important question. The answer is equally important and simple. No. Mormonism is not Christian.
If you are a Mormon, please realize that CARM is not trying to attack you, your character, or the sincerity of your belief. If you are a non-Mormon looking into Mormonism, or if you are a Christian who is simply researching Mormonism, then this paper should be of help to you.
The reason Mormonism is not Christian is because it denies one or more of the essential doctrines of Christianity. Of the essential doctrines (that there is only one God, Jesus is God in flesh, forgiveness of sins is by grace alone, and Jesus rose from the dead physically, the gospel being the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus), Mormonism denies three of them: how many gods there are, the person of Jesus, and His work of salvation.
Mormonism teaches that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones (D. & C. 130:22) and that Jesus is a creation. It teaches that he was begotten in heaven as one of God's spirit children (See the Book, Jesus the Christ, by James Talmage, p. 8). This is in strict contrast to the biblical teaching that he is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14), eternal (John 1:1, 2, 15), uncreated, yet born on earth (Col. 1:15), and the creator all (John 1:3; Col. 1;16-17). Jesus cannot be both created and not created at the same time. Though Mormonism teaches that Jesus is god in flesh, it teaches that he is "a" god in flesh, one of three gods that comprise the office of the Trinity (Articles of Faith, by Talmage, pp. 35-40). These three gods are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. This is in direct contradiction of the biblical doctrine that there is only one God (Isaiah 44:6,8; 45:5). See Trinity for a correct discussion of what the Trinity is.
Because Mormonism denies the biblical truth of who God is, who Jesus is, how forgiveness of sins is attained, and what the gospel is, the Mormon is not Christian -- in spite of all his claims that he is.
this is a direct quote
91 - Irene Wagner
And thank YOU for your kind words Al Barger. In BC sometimes it's (apologies to Meredith Willson): "Bash a little. Snark a little. Bash a little. Snark a little. Bash. Bash. Bash. Snark a little. Bash a lot." And I'm the worst because it's so much dang fun!
Have a good day, Al, and how can any day not be good if it starts with the Dunham Jubilee Sisters?
92 - El Bicho
Irene, it is no defense of Romney to point out what happens in Obama's church, just a tactic to distract from the original point when the commentor has no answer.
93 - handyguy
There are plenty of reasons to oppose Romney and Huckabee that have little or nothing to do with religion. For those looking for a change from Bush, these two are not likely to provide it.
I love the fact that Fred Thompson is now calling Huckabee a "liberal." I guess that puts moderate Dems like me on the left side of Mars or something.
94 - Dave Nalle
Dave, most Americans believe in God and are Christians. Just because you are an atheist/agnostic and view Christianity as a fairy tale doesn't change the fact that most Americans heartily disagree. And in a democracy, those Americans get to cast votes that count just as much as yours. And some of these voters will likely cast their votes based upon this issue (for better or for worse). Denying this fact is to deny an important political reality. So this is certainly a topic worthy of discussion, especially with elections right around the corner.
RJ, I don't deny the fact that this will happen. I just disagree with the concept that it's in anyway desirable to put a candidate's religious beliefs high on the list of considerations in determining who to vote for. I'd rather have an honest Jew or Muslim than a dishonest atheist. I generally have great respect for quakers, but the only one we ever elected president was about as bent as you can get despite his religion.
That said, I do think that openly accepting ANY form of extremist belief be it religion or something else is a serious negative for a presidential candidate. I wouldn't want a racist, and for the same reasons I'd be inclined to reject a lot of fundamentalists who have extreme beliefs which are millenialist or exclusionary.
Believing in god is just fine with me. Basing government policy on that belief in god is not.
Dave
95 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Brother Al,
The whole thing seems to be a matter of drawing lines, and one can compare the two Romney and Huckabee as "Christians" only if the line is drawn defining Mormons as Christians.
Not to be opening Pandora's box here, but if comment #89 is correct, the real answer to the whole question posed by your article is that it does not matter whether Huckabee is a scumbag or not. By definition, he is the better Christian simply because Mitt Romney, the Mormon, is not a Christian.
Mind you, I'm not saying anything against Mormons or their beliefs. They are irrelevant to me. And I assume that a number of Mormons will get up on their hind legs and scream that I am anti-Mormon. I'm not. I could care less. I should point out to you here that the phrase "good Christian" - the key to your article - is to me an oxymoron, much like "military music". But then again, I guess that comes of the mohel having his taken his tip when I was a little babe, giving me the name Reuven.
96 - Al Barger
Brother Ruvy, I appreciate the drawing of lines thing, but I think I have the truer and more significant line. My line as to who's a better Christian is primarily who does the best job of trying to act in a Christ-like manner on a day to day basis - not who most carefully fills out a man-made doctrinal checklist.
By that light, I'd say that, for example, our famously non-believing Brother Nalle is nonetheless a much better Christian than Fred Phelps.
Sister Irene, you might wish to raid my music stash, particularly the Good News Gospel section. I don't dig much on being hated on, but a small pinch of snark is totally groovy. I certainly got some of it coming to me.
Y'all might be interested in THIS RESPONSE to my column that came in the email.
97 - Austin
Mormons are Christians because the believe in Christ as he is literally presented in the Bible. As the Son of God who performed miracles and died and was ressurected. Belief in those truths makes one Christian. Individual interpretations are encompassed by the basic truths and principles established by the New Testament. If Mormons believe all that is presented and written of Christ in the Bible then they are absolutely Christians.
98 - Quater
This is because he is a Mormon, and regardless of what people think, this makes him not a Christian. Plain fact.
99 - Al Barger
Quater- Don't be an asshole. YOU don't get to decide on whether someone else is a Christian. They worship Jesus Christ and claim the name of Christ - and mostly do a better job of actually living like Christians than many of the basic Baptists and Pentecostals I've known.
If not accepting the right doctrine about the trinity ie the one YOU have chosen as revealed truth means that they're going to hell for not agreeing with you, then seems like that'd be up to Jesus to decide. But I'm sure your mortal human frame will show some basic Christian humility, at least to the extent of not presuming to ex-communicate good sincere Christians because you don't like their brand. Not your job. I mean, who died and left you in charge of deciding who's a real Christian and not?
100 - Ty
I am supporting Ron Paul for President, and am a Mormon. Most of my friends are not members of my church, and I often have attended meetings or vacation bible schools with them and their families. I have the utmost respect for all of these people - how they lead their lives, and their devotion to Jesus Christ. However, one experience I had a few years ago serves to illustrate why Mormons believe we are Christian, and why we have trouble understanding why some people do not believe we are Christian. While attending vacation bible school with some friends in Raleigh, North Carolina, the pastor divided the adults into two classes - the "advanced" bible class, and the "beginner" bible class. My wife and I both served Mormon missions as young adults, and though a little leery decided to attend the "advanced" Bible class. It turned out that of the 40-50 adults, 6 people, including us, went to the advanced class. The class over the course of the week turned out not to be about the bible, but about the creeds of the Christian churches.
The first creed discussed was the Apostle's Creed, which states:
=-=-=-=
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.
Amen.
=-=-==
The teacher, who was not the pastor, then asked each student around the table what they thought of this creed. One expressed some reservation about Jesus "rising from the dead" and the part about "the resurrection of the body", in that it implied that Christ arose with a body and that there will be a physical resurrection. Another did not believe the portion of the creed that indicated that Christ descended into hell. Another questioned how he could sit at the right hand of God if he was God.
My wife and I were the last ones to speak. Both of us answered that we felt the creed reflected the biblical teachings of Christ and the Apostles correctly, and we believed in the creed 100%.
My point is that many people "cling" to the different beliefs of Mormons from other Christian churches, while ignoring the fact that the core Mormons beliefs match the creeds of the early Christian church closer than the beliefs of their particular sect.
Even the controversy about Mormon belief/disbelief in the Trinity is enlightening. Mormons believe in the Trinity, although not in same way as most other Christian sects teach the Trinity. Mormons believe that the three members of the Trinity can be referred to as one God, as they are one in purpose, and never vary from one another in thought. Indeed, Mormons believe that if you have seen Christ you have seen the Father, because they look, act, think, and do exactly alike. The only difference between the beliefs, which is entire exagerrated, is that most other Christian sects believe the three members of the Trinity are three manifestations of the same being. But if the three are separate beings but think, act, and do as One, isn't the net result the same thing?
There are many beliefs in different sects that outsiders could call "bizarre", but at the core, Christians, including Mormons, believe the same basic things. Some examples of "bizaare things" that are either shared beliefs that Mormons have with other Christians, or are believed and taught by other sects, are:
Transubstantiation - (not a Mormon belief)
Virgin Birth - (a Mormon belief)
Worship of Saints - (not a Mormon belief)
Earth created in 6000 years - (most Mormons don't believe, but no official Church stance)
Infallibility of the Bible - (not a Mormon belief)
Faith Healings - (a Mormon belief)
Prophecy - (a Mormon belief)
Speaking in Tongues - (a Mormon belief)
Jesus casting evil spirits into Pigs - (a Mormon belief)
101 - Jacob
Mitt Romney says he believes in the faith of his fathers. Does he believe this?
From Doctrine and Covenants 132:61-62 (Mormon scripture), which says: If any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else. And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
102 - Al Barger
Jacob- That's an extremely sorry excuse for a "gotcha" attack on Romney. Yes, the LDS used to support polygamy. Not that this is the worst religious tenet ever, but this was of course given up many years ago in any case.
But it's a particularly asinine thing to throw at Romney, as he (like apparently almost all Mormons) is unquestionably a devoted monogamous family man. There are a LOT more Baptists running around and humping everything than what you would find among the famously family oriented Mormons.
In short, your question prima facie looks like a cheap bigoted attack, and not at all like a real question or legitimate argument against candidate Romney.
103 - Martin
Call Mormons "non-traditional christians." Its clear and will avoid pointless arguements.
104 - REMF
Any religion which promotes plural wives (Brigham Young - 76 wives, Joseph Smith - 51 wives) can't be all bad.
Although I do have a problem with the fact that the Mormons didn't permit African-Americans to be preachers until the late 1970s.
And what's the deal with that Mountain Meadows Massacre?
105 - Jacob
"I believe in my Mormon faith, and I endeavor to live by it. ..."
-- Mitt Romney
“And if he have ten virgins given unto him...”
-- Mormon Doctrine and Covenants 132:61-62...
---
Why doesn't Romney say "I don't agree with the Doctrine?
Romney’s record as governor or of Massachusetts shows he is a chameleon and an opportunist.
Romney has a problem with being honest.
106 - REMF
"I mean, who died and left you in charge of deciding who's a real Christian and not?"
Umm, Jerry Falwell.
107 - Al Barger
Jerry Falwell left you in charge? Well, Gene Scott left ME in charge, and my preacher can definitely beat up your preacher.
108 - REMF
"Call Mormons "non-traditional christians." Its clear and will avoid pointless arguements."
Uh, no, it's a cult.
109 - Robert
Jacob, if Romney is a Chameleon and an opportunist why doesn't he abandon or distance himself from his Mormon Faith? It is by far the most conroversial aspect of his candidacy. Clearly he is a man of integrity and deep moral principles. These are two of the most valuable charactaristics we could ask for in a president.
110 - Jacob
"If Romney is a Chameleon and an opportunist why doesn't he abandon or distance himself from his Mormon Faith?
Romney believes voters won't focus on what he did as governor of Massachusetts. That's his gamble and he believes the MSM won't report on it.
If he did distance himself it would raise more questions about what Joseph Smith wrote..
111 - Al Barger
REMF- You're certainly welcome to take a hike with your "cult" nonsense. That's just a smear word to describe millions of hard working, tax paying family people who mow their lawns and make good neighbors and worship at the church of their choice.
I could and would just as easily describe whatever brand of snake oil you like as a "cult." You and Jacob just have no just reason let alone any needful reason to be hating on Romney and Mormons. You're surely not behaving in a very Christ like manner here.
112 - Baronius
See, Al, this is the problem we keep having on this thread. You say that criticizing Mormonism is un-Christian. Christ was loving, but He wasn't always polite. If someone was wrong, Jesus would call him on it. Being Christian is a matter of both belief and behaviour.
You could have written that Romney acts with greater decency and virtue. If you'd said that, we could have argued and been done with it. But by identifying Romney as more Christian, you opened a can of worms.
A lot of agnostics and atheists on these boards complain about the religious beliefs of the people they vote for. Well, sometimes Christians feel that way too. I can vote for Romney for President, but not for priest-king. Don't try to sell him as priest-king.
113 - Al Barger
Baronius- How did you get that I'm selling Romney as a priest-king? In the first place, I'm not particularly trying to SELL Romney. I don't intend to vote for him. I don't say anything about looking to Mitt Romney for spiritual guidance - though it would be kinda nice to have a president that you could really recommend as a role model to young people.
But that's not saying that he's particularly holy and certainly isn't saying that he's somehow closer to God than anyone else. But he certainly does look like a model Christian, especially compared to the minister who is running pretty much entirely based on his religious beliefs.
To put it another way, I wouldn't so much say that Romney would be particularly a priest-king, but that the Huckster definitely would not be one.
114 - Baronius
Perhaps that was too much rhetorical flourish. You do seem to be pro-Romney politically. And you're holding him up as not only an example of virtue, but of Christian virtue. That's hard to accept.
Seriously, you're not supporting Romney? I was sure you were.
115 - Jacob
In 2003, Romney as governor of Massachusetts put into effect an “Estate Recovery Act” which enabled the state to recover from the properties of Medicaid recipients outside of probate. This meant that financial planning contracts which had been relied on for many years were no longer valid, and assets outside of probate could be taken by the state. It took a Senate override to restore the validity of the contracts.
What’s honest about abrogating contracts?
116 - Al Barger
Baronius, I would certainly support Romney over Huckabee. We could do worse for a president. He's an upright fellow, obviously has some real business and management skills besides just campaign talking, and he's as sharp a tool as there is in the shed.
I wrote in favor of Fred Thompson, who definitely has some good points. I sort of halfway lean to supporting Giuliani because he's the guy who would likely be the least squeamish about killing our enemies, but I'm leery. But depending on tricks by the time things roll through Indiana, I may well vote for Ron Paul.
I do usually like to vote for preachers when they're on the ballot. I figure they might put in a little word with God for me. I voted for Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and Pat Robertson. But I can't get stoned enough to think that voting for Huckabee would be fun.
117 - Jacob
Romney is a good venture capitalist. A good venture capitalist is good at making the rich richer and the poor poorer.
A typical buyout provides millions, tens of millions, sometimes hundred of millions of dollars to investment bankers and lawyers.
Look at what happened to RJR Nabisco. KKR borrowed billions to buy the company, then they broke it up and sold the pieces. Guess who got it in the neck? Hint: There were thousands of them.
Having dealt with vulture capitalists, I wouldn’t trust any of them with my vote.
Caveat Emptor.
118 - Al Barger
Jacob- I don't know a lot of the particulars about Romney's business dealings, but I'll assume for the sake of argument here that you are telling the basic facts correctly. In which case, your judgment is totally wrong and inappropriate, and Romney was highly commendable.
His job as a businessman was not to provide welfare jobs that aren't making the company money because the little people need them. His job is to return a profit on the investment of stockholders. If piecing out a company and firing unneeded workers is what the market called for to right the RJR ship, then that's exactly what needed to be done. This would make money for the company and investors (Romney's ethical commitment as a steward of other people's money - and free up those downsized workers for more productive work.
That's how a free market economy is SUPPOSED to work, and that fluidity and striving for efficiency is a big part of what makes for a successful economy.
Mitt Romney would have been derelict in his fiduciary responsibility if he didn't do stuff like this.
119 - Dave Nalle
Romney is a good venture capitalist. A good venture capitalist is good at making the rich richer and the poor poorer.
Sorry, i just don't see how venture capitalists make poor people poorer. They don't have anything to do with poor people at all. Like any other businessmen they have a method by which they spend or invest money to make more money. Why is that a bad thing?
You seem to have confused venture capitalists with corporate raiders. Not the same thing.
Dave
120 - RJ Elliott
"Irene, it is no defense of Romney to point out what happens in Obama's church, just a tactic to distract from the original point when the commentor has no answer."
Okay. Roughly 30 years ago, the church of Mitt Romney's parent's choice excluded Blacks from holding high offices. Not good, but they've long since rectified that, and Mitt Romney strongly approves of those reforms (see the Tim Russert interview...also, Romney's dad marched with MLK Jr.).
Today, the church of Barack Hussein Obama's choice (his parents' choice would have presumably been a mosque...) is seemingly proudly Black Nationalist. Nobody in the MSM seems to question this, which is interesting, especially since Barack Hussein Obama is half-White.
Given those two choices, I'd choose Mitt Romney any day of the week. YMMV.
121 - RJ Elliott
"And what's the deal with that Mountain Meadows Massacre?"
150 years ago. Therefore, utterly meaningless as far as the modern Mormon Church or Mitt Romney is concerned.
122 - El Bicho
"Roughly 30 years ago, the church of Mitt Romney's parent's choice..."
Nice try, but Romney was 31 in 1978 when that happened, so he spent plenty of time as an adult in the religion.
"they've long since rectified that, and Mitt Romney strongly approves of those reforms"
So what? He doesn't get bonus points for being against racist policies. And if he really thought they were wrong, why did he accept them before the reforms?
"also, Romney's dad marched with MLK Jr."
Ha! Apparently you haven't been paying attention. That statement has been clarified (aka spun) because it's not true.
On Wednesday, Romney's campaign said his recollections of watching his father, an ardent civil rights supporter, march with King were meant to be figurative.
"He was speaking figuratively, not literally," Eric Fehrnstrom, spokesman for the Romney campaign, said of the candidate.
The campaign was responding to questions raised by the Free Press and other media after a Boston publication challenged the accuracy of Mitt Romney's account.
The only reason I brought up the Mormon church's ugly past was in response to Al's comment "you'd be hard pressed to find the least hint of impropriety in anything Mitt Romney has ever done in life" because you wouldn't be hard pressed if you actually looked. If lying counts as being improper, then another example from Romney's life drop right into our lap.
Whatever goes on with Obama doesn't cancel out Romney's problems.
123 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Romney is a good venture capitalist.
Jacob, your view of venture capitalists sounds like a description of a corporate raider, as Dave points out. There is a distinct difference between the two. And corporate raiders are nothing but vultures, as you point out.
It may be that some venture capitalists act as corporate raiders to make a quick buck, but as I understand it, the standard vanilla venture capitalist provides money to someone without money to promote an idea that may make money - for a hefty share of the profit, if there is one.
If you have a beef against vulture capitalists, I can easily understand. All they do is throw people out of work and lap up the cream. But someone who gives a fellow without money an opportunity to build a business? This is bad?
If you don't like Mitt Romney because you think he is a liar and a cheap opportunist, just come out and say so. If you don't like Huckabee because he has the character of a used scumbag, just come out and say so.
Does it really matter what flavor "Christian" they are? Who gives a rat's ass?
I would suggest that you can have an asshole in any religion - heck, we have Peres, Olmert and Livni dumping shit all over us, and they're Jews. We even have big shot rabbis who have the characters of used scumbags. I'll be charitable and not mention names.
If you have the sense to look beyond a party label, judge a man on his character.
And a note to Al: You may think that Jesus was a model to follow. You are of course entitled to that view. Some of us, reading you Book, beg to differ....
124 - Al Barger
Bicho, puh-lease, making Romney out for a liar over the business with his dad and MLK. It's not entirely certain whether he absolutely was in a march with MLK, but he certainly was active and vocal in the civil rights movement. Indeed, there's apparently a quote somewhere with MLK saying that the senior Romney would be a good president. Perhaps "stood with" rather than "marched with" would have been a more careful turn of phrase, but if some bogus shit like this is the worst you can come up with, then Romney's the squeakiest clean sonofagun to run for president in my lifetime.
Ruvy- Divinity aside, what would be your beef with Jesus as a role model? You're saying that he wasn't simply not your promised messiah, but actually a bad person of weak character?
125 - Ty
1. I don't know of any religion whose followers at some point in their history have not done something stupid in the name of that religion - Mormons included. (ie: the Crusades, Al Qaeda, the Inquisition, Salem Witch Trials, Mountain Meadows Massacre). So I think it is useful to leave those things out of this discussion.
2. The Church Romney belongs to excommunicates any member who takes more than one wife, and has done this for more than 100 years.
3. The bible teaches plainly that God has sanctioned righteous men to take more than one wife at times in history (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and others). So apparently the God of Christians and the God of Mormons is a lot more similar than most people tend to admit.