The anti-American charges that are flying about now are, of course, part of McCain's and the RNC's desparate attempts to chip away at Obama's lead in the polls. No doubt some will believe it - say the woman at the McCain rally who said that Obama's an Arab.
It is the same thing that happened back in the 60s. Anyone who spoke out against the war in Vietnam or who were active in and/or supported the civil rights movement were branded as "anti-American."
The RNC, McCain and his campaign apparently consider it more important that they win in November at any cost (exactly, BTW, what Dave Nalle stated in a recent comment on another thread) than to promote a less divided nation.
Quite frankly, their tactics could lead to violence. There is, IMO, more heat coming out of this campaign than any in recent memory - probably dating back to the Nixon era.
I have always been angered by anti-American charges like those emerging now. Just as Lisa alludes to above - the right to criticize our government and its policies are at the very heart of our constitution. Yet there are those who claim that to do so is unpatriotic.
How soon people forget. It was "unpatriotic" to dump tea into Boston harbor. It ultimately was the British Parliament's and King George's unwillingness to respond - except ultimately with violence - to the protestations of the colonists that led to our revolution.
I have to point out that accusations of anti-americanism are hardly the same as accusations of communism. Being anti-american is a pretty vague and subjective accusation. That's why I'd never make it and why none but the very simpleminded ever do. It's much better to level a specific and factually sustainable charge at an enemy. In the case of Obama accusations of being a marxist, communist or socialist are far more effective than calling him anti-american. He's not anti-american, he just thinks America should be a different kind of country than many of us do. Some of us want a nation based on the liberal values of the Declaration of Independence and the founding fathers. Obama prefers one based on the illiberal values of the Communist Manifesto.
Dave
28 -
bliffle
Oct 18, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Dave closes his eyes and fathoms Obamas innermost thoughts:
he just thinks America should be a different kind of country than many of us do. Some of us want a nation based on the liberal values of the Declaration of Independence and the founding fathers. Obama prefers one based on the illiberal values of the Communist Manifesto.
How does he do it? What gives Dave this amazing power to read peoples minds? Is he a mystic? A psychic?
Or is he just full of BS?
29 -
Clavos
Oct 18, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Hell, sometimes I'm anti American.
In most disputes between the US and Mexico, I side with the land of my birth; it is my cultural patria.
30 -
bliffle
Oct 18, 2008 at 1:06 pm
The great thing about the un-american game is that any number can play.
Some, for example, might have serious doubts about Dave Nalles loyalty, patriotism and allegiance to America.
Wasn't Dave born in some foreign country, after all?
Doesn't Dave subscribe to Milton Freidmans notions, and wasn't Freidman a disciple of Strauss, an AUSTRIAN, for crying out loud?
Of course, I personally would never have such doubts about Dave, but the more impressionable among BCs readers might be swayed by such arguments.
So, I have a solution, Dave. Just sign this Loyalty Pledge and send it in:
---------------------clip--------------------
I, Dave Nalle, swear that I am not the agent of any foreign government or ideology, and that I am eternally loyal to the USA.
How does he do it? What gives Dave this amazing power to read peoples minds? Is he a mystic? A psychic?
No, Bliffle. I just actually pay attention to what people like Obama do and say. Take the blinders off and you'll see it too.
As for your loyalty oath, feel free to sign it yourself. I'm loyal to ideas not geography or states unless they earn my loyalty by pursuing the ideals I believe in.
Dave
32 -
J Rae
Oct 18, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Bachmann should be censured for McCarthyism
Michelle Bachmann's interview on "Hardball" Friday night served us all as an expose of both Michelle Bachmann AND the sleazy way in which the McCain/Palin ticket is inciting this kind of venom in the "base" that has hijacked the Republican party.
Please email Nancy Pelosi to call for Bachmann to be censured. Tell all of your friends to do the same.
In the interests of a future for the Republican Party, Republicans should be particularly eager to respond.
33 -
moon
Oct 18, 2008 at 1:45 pm
And I never get tired of quoting Dr. Johnson (who was later recycled by Bob Dylan):
PATRIOTISM IS THE LAST REFUGE OF SCOUNDRELS.
34 -
Cannonshop
Oct 18, 2008 at 2:11 pm
"Please email Nancy Pelosi to call for Bachmann to be censured. Tell all of your friends to do the same."
Way to support that "Freedom of Speech"! Yup. awesome consistency there. Another great demonstration of why, among the Left, Freedom is a reserved thing for only those that agree with them.
How does he do it? What gives Dave this amazing power to read peoples minds? Is he a mystic? A psychic?
No, Bliffle. I just actually pay attention to what people like Obama do and say. Take the blinders off and you'll see it too.
As for your loyalty oath, feel free to sign it yourself. I'm loyal to ideas not geography or states unless they earn my loyalty by pursuing the ideals I believe in.
When I lived in Minnesota, 6th District elections were hard fought. That Rep. Bachmann held a GOP seat in the Democratic sweep of the lower house two years ago indicates that she probably accurately represents the 6th District, and the feelings of lots of its voters.
So unless someone chooses to identify themselves as living in the northern exurbs of the Twin Cities, the comments here read like a lot of ousiders whining.
38 -
Barbara Barnett
Oct 18, 2008 at 3:28 pm
She can have any opinion she wants, Dave. But as a member of the government and a person in power, her calling anyone who doesn't believe as she does "anti-American" is simply unacceptable.
Sorry that I've neglected this conversation (of necessity today) and I'm just getting caught up reading the thread of comments.
Farrakhan?! Really? Ha ha ha. Give me a second to wipe away the tear.
Sorry, I didn't know you were casting your net that wide. Could you find no videos of drunken homeless? Can't believe a preacher would say something like that, and of course, they never use metaphors.
Is that the genesis of this silliness everyone is referring to because I have never seen nor heard it attributed before now. That video looks to have been added last week, but this Messiah talk has been going on for a while. Got anything older?
something is running over all right: the bullshit meter. Lisa's opinion of Dan's attempted and failed satire is no suppression of his First Amendment right. Not wanting to hear something is not the same as laws enacted by Congress. I guess the Bill of Rights wasn't on the Asst. Politics Editor test.
43 -
bliffle
Oct 18, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Dave confesses:
I'm loyal to ideas not geography or states unless they earn my loyalty by pursuing the ideals I believe in.
Gasp!
Dave confesses that he's NOT loyal to "geography or states". Including the USA I presume!
Shocking!
Light the torches!
Get out the lynching rope!
Looks like we've found an unpatriotic disloyal fake American!
Well Clav, you have a perspective that many don't. You can see how the U.S. may be wrong in its positions and its actions better than some.
I am curious about just what sources Dave has regarding his take on Obama? I haven't read everything he's written. I've not read or heard every speech he's given, but nothing I've read or heard would lead me to believe that Obama is a communist waiting to spring. Certainly, Obama has socialist leanings, he is certainly a leftist in some regards.
However, the feeling and fear of some is that if elected Obama will in fact govern from a more centrist position similar to Clinton's. I guess we won't know unless and until he takes office.
When supposed "super-patriots" start spouting things like "my country, right or wrong," as they often did in the 60s and 70s, it just reinforces the notion that people in other countries have about our collective stupidity and arrogance.
Most citizens of other countries rightly maintain a sense of national pride, but many also are aware of the fact that we live, moreso now than at any time in history, in a world community. That there must be give and take and that other people have interests that may or may not be in concert with their own. I ain't saying it's all sweetness and light. The world is still rampant with ignorance and greed - with religious and cultural bias, but given the much greater possibility of total annihilation owing to the number and proliferation of WMDs, we must give up some of our jingoistic tendencies and work more with the rest of the world's nations than against them. Even if they "don't like us very much." To believe that is neither unpatriotic nor anti-American.
B
45 -
Pablo
Oct 18, 2008 at 6:09 pm
Dave Re post 15 you said:
"Last I checked it was legal to be anti-american in america, so I don't see what there is to investigate."
She can have any opinion she wants, Dave. But as a member of the government and a person in power, her calling anyone who doesn't believe as she does "anti-American" is simply unacceptable.
You've missed my point entirely, here (along with the rest of the crowd), and the fact that you know little about Minnesota politics is woefully obvious from your comments.
To repeat: When I lived in Minnesota, 6th District elections were hard fought. That Rep. Bachmann held a GOP seat in the Democratic sweep of the lower house two years ago indicates that she probably accurately represents the 6th District, and the feelings of lots of its voters.
Michele Bachmann was elected to represent the voters in her district. That is the sole issue here. What outsiders like you think is acceptable behavior is just plain irrelevant. If the voters in the Minnesota 6th toss her out in November, then it will have been proof that what she said or did in representing her constituents was unacceptable.
Lisa's opinion of Dan's attempted and failed satire is no suppression of his First Amendment right.
Perhaps you missed this little gem:
The fact that we support him is nothing to be made fun of.
This is not simply an opinion of his scintillating satire; she's calling for him to stop making fun of Obama's supporters. To me, that's an attempt to deny Dan(Miller) his right to free speech, though admittedly, she has neither the authority nor power to enforce her silly demand.
And yet, ironically, she proceeds to whine that being called an epithet because of her political opinion is an infringement of her right to free speech, even though no one has suggested she stop expressing her opinion, as she did to Dan(Miller).
Of course, I could be wrong; English, after all, is not my first language; I guess I could have misread her self righteousness. Quizás estoy equivocado, pero lo dudo.
Your bullshit meter is running over from your own BS, EB, not mine.
"she's calling for him to stop making fun of Obama's supporters."
Yes, she is, but since when did a request by an individual not to be made fun of become equal to a law enacted by Congress?
And no where in that comment did she state Dan was infringing on her rights. If you are going to start making stuff up, it's obviously time to move on.
51 -
Clavos
Oct 18, 2008 at 7:43 pm
"Of course, I could be wrong"
at least you got that part right.
This from a guy who chose a moniker that means "the penis."
...since when did a request by an individual not to be made fun ofbecome equal to a law enacted by Congress?
Where did I equate her demand with a law? Here's what I actually said:
Wherein she is ready, even eager to suppress Dan(Miller)'s First Amendment rights
Then you say:
And no where in that comment did she state Dan was infringing on her rights
But, she did. Right here:
Why, in a country founded on free speech, is it no okay to speak out against a government that is taking away our rights to privacy and free speech?
Thanks. However, I have pretty much given up on logical discourse for a while -- although it occasionally slips through, inadvertently -- and have decided that since it doesn't work, irritating the Hell out of some people is more fun. Every now and then, I succeed.
Satan, and Joe the Plumber, his other name, makes me do it.
Rather than give the comment editors work and act as childish as you, I will just deal with the matters at hand instead of pointing out what you are acting like in reference to the name.
"Where did I equate her demand with a law?"
Did you forgot writing this?:
"that's an attempt to deny Dan(Miller) his right to free speech."
Please explain how other than a law someone can have their free speech denied. Lisa doesn't grant anyone that right so she can't take it away. It was a request, plain and simple. She, and others, should get thicker skin. Dan can and most likely will ignore it. No reason to call the ACLU or to get on the Supreme Court docket.
That last part you quoted had nothing to do with what Dan said to her. If you read what she said, she took umbrage with his mocking her support of Obama. That's why she wrote "The fact that we support [Obama] is nothing to be made fun of." That isn't the same thing as "speak[ing] out against a government." Dan's "satire" didn't deal with speaking against the government and is probably why she set it off in a different paragraph, but I am only going off the words written in this thread.
Well Ruvy, it's not really that simple. The capacity in which Congresswoman Bachmann appeared on "Hardball" was as a representative of the RNC, and by extension, the McCain campaign. She was not speaking only as a representative of the Minnesota 6th District. She may have been speaking her own mind, but she did so on behalf of her party.
I'm with Ruvy, it IS that simple. If more people at the grassroots level took real stock of their respective member of Congress, they would throw the bums out.
56 -
Lisa Solod Warren
Oct 18, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Good Grief, you guys...... I am so glad I have better things to do than hang around and watch you argue over a sentence of mine.
It is pretty clear, Clav, that you have such a... well, whatever the hell it is, for me, that you can't even read anything I write anymore without taking me to task. Like I was calling for Dan's free speech rights to be taken away.
The point I was making was about his absolutely absurd Second Coming of Christ bullshit and the unfunny satire. And that being the reason Obama's supporters support him, which seems to be what so many of your Repubs want to think, even though you know it simply isn't true.
Wasn't clear? Oh well.
Have fun, guys. NO ONE on this list or anywhere else could possibly imagine I wish to take anyone's free speech away. If you have read one single word I have written you wouldn't even begin to imagine anything so ridiculous. Clav, you are either drunk or merely being your clever little (tiny) self again.
Obviously, as usual, you didn't even bother to read or digest my post... just decided to glom onto one sentence, for your own amusement.
Why don't you go pick on someone your own size. Ie, someone much much smaller than I am?
Some of us want a nation based on the liberal values of the Declaration of Independence and the founding fathers. Obama prefers one based on the illiberal values of the Communist Manifesto.
HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DAVE!!! Your Killing me!!!!!! LOL
60 -
Cindy D
Oct 18, 2008 at 11:22 pm
I have pretty much given up on logical discourse...
it's not really that simple. The capacity in which Congresswoman Bachmann appeared on "Hardball" was as a representative of the RNC, and by extension, the McCain campaign. She was not speaking only as a representative of the Minnesota 6th District. She may have been speaking her own mind, but she did so on behalf of her party.
Bottom line, Baritone. Representative Bachmann is playing hardball with the opposite aisle and it is ugly - but the opposite aisle has ben playing hardball with her aisle and it is equally ugly. She may "represent" the RNC in calling Obama unpatriotic, and that may bother you. But in the end, it is the voters in Anoka, Stearns, and the surrounding counties in the Minnesota Congressional 6th District who must decide her fate next month. She is accountable to them - not you or Nancy Pelosi, or even the RNC. And if they re-elect her, then it is evidence, among other things, that the majority of voting residents in the northern exurbs of the Twin Cities feel as she does about the Democratic messiah strutting around seeking the presidency in your country.
AND IT IS THAT SIMPLE. If that bothers you, it is too bad.
If only it were that simple here. We could throw out scads of traitors in our own parliament - scum who only look at he next bribe or the orders out of the American State Department (or the pigs at "J-Street") instead of actually representing us, the people of Israel.
64 -
Ms. Know
Oct 19, 2008 at 1:23 pm
She can not speak for her entire party. However, those questions are worthy for a liberal illuminati that has association or ties to a man who feels sourly about our country. Country is supposed to be first, so how can you associate with socialist who don't value America?
You miss the point. Yes, she is answerable to her constituency in Minnesota, but in that moment on "Hardball" she was acting as a surrogate for George W. McCain and the RNC. If that's not the message they want out there, the onus is on the campaign and/or the party to stifle that crap or own it.
You and others keep making the "Messiah" reference. It's crap. Few Obama backers look upon him as a deliverer. We look upon him as a much better choice than McBooger. If you watch any of the McCrud rallies, you'll see that his "fans" are no less rabid than the craziest Obama devotees. At least Obama's crowd hasn't voiced the desire to kill McCainiac.
Ms. Know,
Being a socialist is not inherently anti-American.
Right wing nut jobs keep beating this dead horse. Apparently, unless Obama comes out openly recounting any and every second of every encounter he ever had with Ayers, including video and bathroom breaks, you'll assume that Obama was in a constant Vulcan mind meld with Ayers being fed a constant barrage of the Communist Manifesto and bomb construction plans.
If you want to consider that intense and prolonged contact with avowed communists is suspect, it is McBrainwashed who was in that very situation for over 5 years. As I suggested on another thread, McComrade just might be the real Manchurian candidate. What evil commie plots might be stored in the recesses of McBaldy's mind that will come to life when he first hears "Good morning, Mr. President?
If that's not the message they want out there, the onus is on the campaign and/or the party to stifle that crap or own it.
Then that is what this article should be about - the failure of the party to either stifle or own up to Michele Bachmann's remarks.
Being a socialist is not inherently anti-American. We are in volent agreement here. In addition, it is both parties that are espousing selected elements of state socialism in this campaign. The GOP (represented by the sitting administration) is on the verge of partially nationaizing the banking industry. And unless somebody does something, the banking industry will fall apart in America, and estimating the value of houses will become, for you, a matter of how many pelts or cars or something else that will be given for trade, rather than money.
Yesterday, on another thread I posted comment #45, with a link to Bill Ayers' website and to an address he delivered two years ago about the educational reforms instituted by President Chavez in Venezuela. I encouraged
people to read the address and decide whether Mr. Ayers' philosophy is relevant to Senator Obama's candidacy and, if so, whether this is the sort of educational reform which is desired in the United States.
Thus far, no one has commented, on either question. Perhaps there is no relevance, and perhaps that's what many people want. My answers are yes, Mr. Ayers' philosophy is relevant and no, educational reform as carried out in Venezuela would not be good for the U.S. It would be interesting to hear what a few supporters of Senator Obama think.
If and when Obama starts espousing Ayer's positions on education - actually Obama hasn't had a great deal to say thus far regarding education, - then we'll perhaps see just what, if any, influence the likes of Ayers has had on him.
What evidence is there that Obama was subject to any influence of Ayers? Is it assumed that since Obama was the younger, that he would automatically be somehow mesmerized by Ayers and his agenda? Does Obama seem somehow to you to be some kind of puppet? Why is there never a question regarding the possibility that McCain may have been thoroughly brainwashed by the VC commies during what was close and intense contact for over 5 years. More than one American POW succumbed to such pressure. I have suggested this lightly on a couple of threads, but the more I think about it, it does seem to me no less likely than Obama having been effectively "brainwashed" by Ayers, Dohrn, etal.
No doubt that Ayers is at least a serious socialist, perhaps even a communist. Obama is certainly a leftist. But there is absolutely no evidence that he has adopted Ayer's positions. All these accusations come down to desparation on the part of the Reps and the McCain campaign. They have nothing of substance left to offer. McCain can't realistically separate himself from the Bush failures in virtually every aspect of his administration.
McCain could still pull if off. A lot can happen in 15 days. Poll numbers tend to tighten up as the election get closer. It certainly doesn't look hopeful for McCain, but I won't count him out yet.
Fair enough. In view of the claims floating around that Mr. Ayers has had a substantial impact on Senator Obama's philosophy, educational and otherwise, I would very much like to hear either or both of them speak authoritatively on the subject. Unfortunately, that does not seem at all likely.
We dance around in a ring and suppose
While the secret sits in the middle and knows.
Kudos to Robert Frost.
Dan(Miller)
70 -
moon
Oct 19, 2008 at 6:33 pm
I know a fair amount about educational reform in Venezuela.
It is based on the works and pedagogical theories of Paulo Freire--who taught for awhile at Harvard while in exile from a US-backed military dictatorship in Brazil in the 60s.
The Paulo Freire Institute, originally opened in Sao Paulo, has been located at UCLA for several years--in the Graduate School of Education.
Freire consulted on literacy programs around the globe, and is perhaps best known for his book The Pedagogy of the Oppressed.
His famous statement, "All education is political" as well as his debunking of the "Banking information model of education", would be useful to apply in an analysis of the gringo No Child Left Behind Program.
I have used Freire's works in the classroom and in conferences since 2002, and was particularly pleased to see Venezuela's government begin using Freire's approach in the preschools there.
As you suggest, Frost's sentiments are likely to be born out between now and November 4th.
Ayers has opted out of any involvement. Obama doesn't seem inclined to get into any further details regarding Ayers, ACORN or the rest of it.
Unless the numbers start to turn sharply against him demonstrably owing to these issues, it is very unlikely that Obama will respond any further with this stuff. Is he being less than candid? Perhaps. We may never know.
Obama has resisted being reactionary to McCain. He has maintained an arms length distance and has conducted his campaign on his own terms, rather than being jerked around by McCain. Obama is in the driver's seat with McCain sitting in the back trying in vain to get Obama to turn here or there. Obama remains his own man driving straight ahead focussed on his intended destination.
B
72 -
bliffle
Oct 20, 2008 at 12:18 am
Dan(Miller) says:
"In view of the claims floating around that Mr. Ayers has had a substantial impact on Senator Obama's philosophy, educational and otherwise, I would very much like to hear either or both of them speak authoritatively on the subject."
Claim? What a stupid basis for discovery!
If some nut claims that McCain picked Palin because he was plucking her and really enjoyed it, would that justify an investigation?
ST. PAUL, MINN. " After saying on MSNBC's Hardball that Barack Obama "may have anti-American views," Republican U.S. Rep. Michele Bachmann finds herself fending off criticism from former Secretary of State Colin Powell, a Republican, and Democratic House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.
The comments by Bachmann, R-Minn., uncorked a gusher of donations to her opponent.
Democrat Elwyn Tinklenberg said his campaign brought in $810,000 in less than 72 hours " it took the former Minnesota state transportation commissioner a year to raise $1 million before that.
On Sunday, Bachmann told WCCO-TV in Minneapolis that her comments about Obama had been misread.
"I feel his views are concerning, and I'm calling on the media to investigate them," Bachmann told the station. "I'm not saying that his views are anti-American."
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Baritone
The anti-American charges that are flying about now are, of course, part of McCain's and the RNC's desparate attempts to chip away at Obama's lead in the polls. No doubt some will believe it - say the woman at the McCain rally who said that Obama's an Arab.
It is the same thing that happened back in the 60s. Anyone who spoke out against the war in Vietnam or who were active in and/or supported the civil rights movement were branded as "anti-American."
The RNC, McCain and his campaign apparently consider it more important that they win in November at any cost (exactly, BTW, what Dave Nalle stated in a recent comment on another thread) than to promote a less divided nation.
Quite frankly, their tactics could lead to violence. There is, IMO, more heat coming out of this campaign than any in recent memory - probably dating back to the Nixon era.
I have always been angered by anti-American charges like those emerging now. Just as Lisa alludes to above - the right to criticize our government and its policies are at the very heart of our constitution. Yet there are those who claim that to do so is unpatriotic.
How soon people forget. It was "unpatriotic" to dump tea into Boston harbor. It ultimately was the British Parliament's and King George's unwillingness to respond - except ultimately with violence - to the protestations of the colonists that led to our revolution.
B
27 - DaveNalle
I have to point out that accusations of anti-americanism are hardly the same as accusations of communism. Being anti-american is a pretty vague and subjective accusation. That's why I'd never make it and why none but the very simpleminded ever do. It's much better to level a specific and factually sustainable charge at an enemy. In the case of Obama accusations of being a marxist, communist or socialist are far more effective than calling him anti-american. He's not anti-american, he just thinks America should be a different kind of country than many of us do. Some of us want a nation based on the liberal values of the Declaration of Independence and the founding fathers. Obama prefers one based on the illiberal values of the Communist Manifesto.
Dave
28 - bliffle
Dave closes his eyes and fathoms Obamas innermost thoughts:
he just thinks America should be a different kind of country than many of us do. Some of us want a nation based on the liberal values of the Declaration of Independence and the founding fathers. Obama prefers one based on the illiberal values of the Communist Manifesto.
How does he do it? What gives Dave this amazing power to read peoples minds? Is he a mystic? A psychic?
Or is he just full of BS?
29 - Clavos
Hell, sometimes I'm anti American.
In most disputes between the US and Mexico, I side with the land of my birth; it is my cultural patria.
30 - bliffle
The great thing about the un-american game is that any number can play.
Some, for example, might have serious doubts about Dave Nalles loyalty, patriotism and allegiance to America.
Wasn't Dave born in some foreign country, after all?
Doesn't Dave subscribe to Milton Freidmans notions, and wasn't Freidman a disciple of Strauss, an AUSTRIAN, for crying out loud?
Of course, I personally would never have such doubts about Dave, but the more impressionable among BCs readers might be swayed by such arguments.
So, I have a solution, Dave. Just sign this Loyalty Pledge and send it in:
---------------------clip--------------------
I, Dave Nalle, swear that I am not the agent of any foreign government or ideology, and that I am eternally loyal to the USA.
(signed)
Dave Nalle
---------------------clip--------------------
There! Just clip it out and send it in.
31 - DaveNalle
How does he do it? What gives Dave this amazing power to read peoples minds? Is he a mystic? A psychic?
No, Bliffle. I just actually pay attention to what people like Obama do and say. Take the blinders off and you'll see it too.
As for your loyalty oath, feel free to sign it yourself. I'm loyal to ideas not geography or states unless they earn my loyalty by pursuing the ideals I believe in.
Dave
32 - J Rae
Bachmann should be censured for McCarthyism
Michelle Bachmann's interview on "Hardball" Friday night served us all as an expose of both Michelle Bachmann AND the sleazy way in which the McCain/Palin ticket is inciting this kind of venom in the "base" that has hijacked the Republican party.
Please email Nancy Pelosi to call for Bachmann to be censured. Tell all of your friends to do the same.
In the interests of a future for the Republican Party, Republicans should be particularly eager to respond.
33 - moon
And I never get tired of quoting Dr. Johnson (who was later recycled by Bob Dylan):
PATRIOTISM IS THE LAST REFUGE OF SCOUNDRELS.
34 - Cannonshop
"Please email Nancy Pelosi to call for Bachmann to be censured. Tell all of your friends to do the same."
Way to support that "Freedom of Speech"! Yup. awesome consistency there. Another great demonstration of why, among the Left, Freedom is a reserved thing for only those that agree with them.
35 - DaveNalle
How does he do it? What gives Dave this amazing power to read peoples minds? Is he a mystic? A psychic?
No, Bliffle. I just actually pay attention to what people like Obama do and say. Take the blinders off and you'll see it too.
As for your loyalty oath, feel free to sign it yourself. I'm loyal to ideas not geography or states unless they earn my loyalty by pursuing the ideals I believe in.
Dave
36 - DaveNalle
Bachmann should be censured for McCarthyism
Thou shalt not have a politically incorrect opinion. - the new 11th commandment
Dave
37 - Ruvy
When I lived in Minnesota, 6th District elections were hard fought. That Rep. Bachmann held a GOP seat in the Democratic sweep of the lower house two years ago indicates that she probably accurately represents the 6th District, and the feelings of lots of its voters.
So unless someone chooses to identify themselves as living in the northern exurbs of the Twin Cities, the comments here read like a lot of ousiders whining.
38 - Barbara Barnett
She can have any opinion she wants, Dave. But as a member of the government and a person in power, her calling anyone who doesn't believe as she does "anti-American" is simply unacceptable.
Sorry that I've neglected this conversation (of necessity today) and I'm just getting caught up reading the thread of comments.
(Chag sameach, Ruvy.)
39 - Baronius
Censured for McCarthyism. Heh.
40 - El Bicho
#21
Farrakhan?! Really? Ha ha ha. Give me a second to wipe away the tear.
Sorry, I didn't know you were casting your net that wide. Could you find no videos of drunken homeless? Can't believe a preacher would say something like that, and of course, they never use metaphors.
Is that the genesis of this silliness everyone is referring to because I have never seen nor heard it attributed before now. That video looks to have been added last week, but this Messiah talk has been going on for a while. Got anything older?
41 - El Bicho
btw, Farrahkan is so far to left he may well be closer to the right, which I identified not Republicans, than the center
42 - El Bicho
Clavos,
something is running over all right: the bullshit meter. Lisa's opinion of Dan's attempted and failed satire is no suppression of his First Amendment right. Not wanting to hear something is not the same as laws enacted by Congress. I guess the Bill of Rights wasn't on the Asst. Politics Editor test.
43 - bliffle
Dave confesses:
I'm loyal to ideas not geography or states unless they earn my loyalty by pursuing the ideals I believe in.
Gasp!
Dave confesses that he's NOT loyal to "geography or states". Including the USA I presume!
Shocking!
Light the torches!
Get out the lynching rope!
Looks like we've found an unpatriotic disloyal fake American!
44 - Baritone
Well Clav, you have a perspective that many don't. You can see how the U.S. may be wrong in its positions and its actions better than some.
I am curious about just what sources Dave has regarding his take on Obama? I haven't read everything he's written. I've not read or heard every speech he's given, but nothing I've read or heard would lead me to believe that Obama is a communist waiting to spring. Certainly, Obama has socialist leanings, he is certainly a leftist in some regards.
However, the feeling and fear of some is that if elected Obama will in fact govern from a more centrist position similar to Clinton's. I guess we won't know unless and until he takes office.
When supposed "super-patriots" start spouting things like "my country, right or wrong," as they often did in the 60s and 70s, it just reinforces the notion that people in other countries have about our collective stupidity and arrogance.
Most citizens of other countries rightly maintain a sense of national pride, but many also are aware of the fact that we live, moreso now than at any time in history, in a world community. That there must be give and take and that other people have interests that may or may not be in concert with their own. I ain't saying it's all sweetness and light. The world is still rampant with ignorance and greed - with religious and cultural bias, but given the much greater possibility of total annihilation owing to the number and proliferation of WMDs, we must give up some of our jingoistic tendencies and work more with the rest of the world's nations than against them. Even if they "don't like us very much." To believe that is neither unpatriotic nor anti-American.
B
45 - Pablo
Dave Re post 15 you said:
"Last I checked it was legal to be anti-american in america, so I don't see what there is to investigate."
You oughta know bubba. :)
46 - Baritone
Boy, I hope Dave knows a quick way out of Dodge - er - Austin. The NSA's listeners (and readers) are probably dispatching a rendition team as I write.
"Welcome to Bulgaria Mr. Nalle."
blif,
Dave should have just signed and kept his own council with that "loyal[ty] to ideas" stuff.
B
47 - Ruvy
Barbara,
She can have any opinion she wants, Dave. But as a member of the government and a person in power, her calling anyone who doesn't believe as she does "anti-American" is simply unacceptable.
You've missed my point entirely, here (along with the rest of the crowd), and the fact that you know little about Minnesota politics is woefully obvious from your comments.
To repeat: When I lived in Minnesota, 6th District elections were hard fought. That Rep. Bachmann held a GOP seat in the Democratic sweep of the lower house two years ago indicates that she probably accurately represents the 6th District, and the feelings of lots of its voters.
Michele Bachmann was elected to represent the voters in her district. That is the sole issue here. What outsiders like you think is acceptable behavior is just plain irrelevant. If the voters in the Minnesota 6th toss her out in November, then it will have been proof that what she said or did in representing her constituents was unacceptable.
It's really that simple.
48 - Ruvy
Oh yes, Barb...
moadím l'simHá
49 - Clavos
El Bicho, @#42 sez:
Lisa's opinion of Dan's attempted and failed satire is no suppression of his First Amendment right.
Perhaps you missed this little gem:
The fact that we support him is nothing to be made fun of.
This is not simply an opinion of his scintillating satire; she's calling for him to stop making fun of Obama's supporters. To me, that's an attempt to deny Dan(Miller) his right to free speech, though admittedly, she has neither the authority nor power to enforce her silly demand.
And yet, ironically, she proceeds to whine that being called an epithet because of her political opinion is an infringement of her right to free speech, even though no one has suggested she stop expressing her opinion, as she did to Dan(Miller).
Of course, I could be wrong; English, after all, is not my first language; I guess I could have misread her self righteousness. Quizás estoy equivocado, pero lo dudo.
Your bullshit meter is running over from your own BS, EB, not mine.
50 - El Bicho
"Of course, I could be wrong"
at least you got that part right.
"she's calling for him to stop making fun of Obama's supporters."
Yes, she is, but since when did a request by an individual not to be made fun of become equal to a law enacted by Congress?
And no where in that comment did she state Dan was infringing on her rights. If you are going to start making stuff up, it's obviously time to move on.
51 - Clavos
"Of course, I could be wrong"
at least you got that part right.
This from a guy who chose a moniker that means "the penis."
...since when did a request by an individual not to be made fun ofbecome equal to a law enacted by Congress?
Where did I equate her demand with a law? Here's what I actually said:
Wherein she is ready, even eager to suppress Dan(Miller)'s First Amendment rights
Then you say:
And no where in that comment did she state Dan was infringing on her rights
But, she did. Right here:
Why, in a country founded on free speech, is it no okay to speak out against a government that is taking away our rights to privacy and free speech?
52 - Dan(Miller)
Clav,
Thanks. However, I have pretty much given up on logical discourse for a while -- although it occasionally slips through, inadvertently -- and have decided that since it doesn't work, irritating the Hell out of some people is more fun. Every now and then, I succeed.
Satan, and Joe the Plumber, his other name, makes me do it.
Dan(Miller)
53 - El Bicho
Rather than give the comment editors work and act as childish as you, I will just deal with the matters at hand instead of pointing out what you are acting like in reference to the name.
"Where did I equate her demand with a law?"
Did you forgot writing this?:
"that's an attempt to deny Dan(Miller) his right to free speech."
Please explain how other than a law someone can have their free speech denied. Lisa doesn't grant anyone that right so she can't take it away. It was a request, plain and simple. She, and others, should get thicker skin. Dan can and most likely will ignore it. No reason to call the ACLU or to get on the Supreme Court docket.
That last part you quoted had nothing to do with what Dan said to her. If you read what she said, she took umbrage with his mocking her support of Obama. That's why she wrote "The fact that we support [Obama] is nothing to be made fun of." That isn't the same thing as "speak[ing] out against a government." Dan's "satire" didn't deal with speaking against the government and is probably why she set it off in a different paragraph, but I am only going off the words written in this thread.
54 - Baritone
Well Ruvy, it's not really that simple. The capacity in which Congresswoman Bachmann appeared on "Hardball" was as a representative of the RNC, and by extension, the McCain campaign. She was not speaking only as a representative of the Minnesota 6th District. She may have been speaking her own mind, but she did so on behalf of her party.
So, again, no, it's not that simple.
B
55 - Silas Kain
I'm with Ruvy, it IS that simple. If more people at the grassroots level took real stock of their respective member of Congress, they would throw the bums out.
56 - Lisa Solod Warren
Good Grief, you guys...... I am so glad I have better things to do than hang around and watch you argue over a sentence of mine.
It is pretty clear, Clav, that you have such a... well, whatever the hell it is, for me, that you can't even read anything I write anymore without taking me to task. Like I was calling for Dan's free speech rights to be taken away.
The point I was making was about his absolutely absurd Second Coming of Christ bullshit and the unfunny satire. And that being the reason Obama's supporters support him, which seems to be what so many of your Repubs want to think, even though you know it simply isn't true.
Wasn't clear? Oh well.
Have fun, guys. NO ONE on this list or anywhere else could possibly imagine I wish to take anyone's free speech away. If you have read one single word I have written you wouldn't even begin to imagine anything so ridiculous. Clav, you are either drunk or merely being your clever little (tiny) self again.
Obviously, as usual, you didn't even bother to read or digest my post... just decided to glom onto one sentence, for your own amusement.
Why don't you go pick on someone your own size. Ie, someone much much smaller than I am?
57 - El Bicho
game, set, match.
58 - Clavos
OK, Lisa. I will no longer pick on you.
59 - Cindy D
Some of us want a nation based on the liberal values of the Declaration of Independence and the founding fathers. Obama prefers one based on the illiberal values of the Communist Manifesto.
HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DAVE!!! Your Killing me!!!!!! LOL
60 - Cindy D
I have pretty much given up on logical discourse...
Dan! Oh my word!!! This is thread is hilarious!
61 - DaveNalle
This from a guy who chose a moniker that means "the penis."
Hey, some of my favorite bands are named after penises...
Dave
62 - bliffle
Cindy D is right - again.
63 - Ruvy
it's not really that simple. The capacity in which Congresswoman Bachmann appeared on "Hardball" was as a representative of the RNC, and by extension, the McCain campaign. She was not speaking only as a representative of the Minnesota 6th District. She may have been speaking her own mind, but she did so on behalf of her party.
Bottom line, Baritone. Representative Bachmann is playing hardball with the opposite aisle and it is ugly - but the opposite aisle has ben playing hardball with her aisle and it is equally ugly. She may "represent" the RNC in calling Obama unpatriotic, and that may bother you. But in the end, it is the voters in Anoka, Stearns, and the surrounding counties in the Minnesota Congressional 6th District who must decide her fate next month. She is accountable to them - not you or Nancy Pelosi, or even the RNC. And if they re-elect her, then it is evidence, among other things, that the majority of voting residents in the northern exurbs of the Twin Cities feel as she does about the Democratic messiah strutting around seeking the presidency in your country.
AND IT IS THAT SIMPLE. If that bothers you, it is too bad.
If only it were that simple here. We could throw out scads of traitors in our own parliament - scum who only look at he next bribe or the orders out of the American State Department (or the pigs at "J-Street") instead of actually representing us, the people of Israel.
64 - Ms. Know
She can not speak for her entire party. However, those questions are worthy for a liberal illuminati that has association or ties to a man who feels sourly about our country. Country is supposed to be first, so how can you associate with socialist who don't value America?
65 - Baritone
Ruvy,
You miss the point. Yes, she is answerable to her constituency in Minnesota, but in that moment on "Hardball" she was acting as a surrogate for George W. McCain and the RNC. If that's not the message they want out there, the onus is on the campaign and/or the party to stifle that crap or own it.
You and others keep making the "Messiah" reference. It's crap. Few Obama backers look upon him as a deliverer. We look upon him as a much better choice than McBooger. If you watch any of the McCrud rallies, you'll see that his "fans" are no less rabid than the craziest Obama devotees. At least Obama's crowd hasn't voiced the desire to kill McCainiac.
Ms. Know,
Being a socialist is not inherently anti-American.
Right wing nut jobs keep beating this dead horse. Apparently, unless Obama comes out openly recounting any and every second of every encounter he ever had with Ayers, including video and bathroom breaks, you'll assume that Obama was in a constant Vulcan mind meld with Ayers being fed a constant barrage of the Communist Manifesto and bomb construction plans.
If you want to consider that intense and prolonged contact with avowed communists is suspect, it is McBrainwashed who was in that very situation for over 5 years. As I suggested on another thread, McComrade just might be the real Manchurian candidate. What evil commie plots might be stored in the recesses of McBaldy's mind that will come to life when he first hears "Good morning, Mr. President?
B
66 - Ruvy
If that's not the message they want out there, the onus is on the campaign and/or the party to stifle that crap or own it.
Then that is what this article should be about - the failure of the party to either stifle or own up to Michele Bachmann's remarks.
Being a socialist is not inherently anti-American. We are in volent agreement here. In addition, it is both parties that are espousing selected elements of state socialism in this campaign. The GOP (represented by the sitting administration) is on the verge of partially nationaizing the banking industry. And unless somebody does something, the banking industry will fall apart in America, and estimating the value of houses will become, for you, a matter of how many pelts or cars or something else that will be given for trade, rather than money.
67 - Dan(Miller)
Baritone,
Thus far, no one has commented, on either question. Perhaps there is no relevance, and perhaps that's what many people want. My answers are yes, Mr. Ayers' philosophy is relevant and no, educational reform as carried out in Venezuela would not be good for the U.S. It would be interesting to hear what a few supporters of Senator Obama think.Yesterday, on another thread I posted comment #45, with a link to Bill Ayers' website and to an address he delivered two years ago about the educational reforms instituted by President Chavez in Venezuela. I encouraged
Dan(Miller)
68 - Baritone
Dan,
If and when Obama starts espousing Ayer's positions on education - actually Obama hasn't had a great deal to say thus far regarding education, - then we'll perhaps see just what, if any, influence the likes of Ayers has had on him.
What evidence is there that Obama was subject to any influence of Ayers? Is it assumed that since Obama was the younger, that he would automatically be somehow mesmerized by Ayers and his agenda? Does Obama seem somehow to you to be some kind of puppet? Why is there never a question regarding the possibility that McCain may have been thoroughly brainwashed by the VC commies during what was close and intense contact for over 5 years. More than one American POW succumbed to such pressure. I have suggested this lightly on a couple of threads, but the more I think about it, it does seem to me no less likely than Obama having been effectively "brainwashed" by Ayers, Dohrn, etal.
No doubt that Ayers is at least a serious socialist, perhaps even a communist. Obama is certainly a leftist. But there is absolutely no evidence that he has adopted Ayer's positions. All these accusations come down to desparation on the part of the Reps and the McCain campaign. They have nothing of substance left to offer. McCain can't realistically separate himself from the Bush failures in virtually every aspect of his administration.
McCain could still pull if off. A lot can happen in 15 days. Poll numbers tend to tighten up as the election get closer. It certainly doesn't look hopeful for McCain, but I won't count him out yet.
B
69 - Dan(Miller)
Baritone,
Kudos to Robert Frost.Fair enough. In view of the claims floating around that Mr. Ayers has had a substantial impact on Senator Obama's philosophy, educational and otherwise, I would very much like to hear either or both of them speak authoritatively on the subject. Unfortunately, that does not seem at all likely.
Dan(Miller)
70 - moon
I know a fair amount about educational reform in Venezuela.
It is based on the works and pedagogical theories of Paulo Freire--who taught for awhile at Harvard while in exile from a US-backed military dictatorship in Brazil in the 60s.
The Paulo Freire Institute, originally opened in Sao Paulo, has been located at UCLA for several years--in the Graduate School of Education.
Freire consulted on literacy programs around the globe, and is perhaps best known for his book The Pedagogy of the Oppressed.
His famous statement, "All education is political" as well as his debunking of the "Banking information model of education", would be useful to apply in an analysis of the gringo No Child Left Behind Program.
I have used Freire's works in the classroom and in conferences since 2002, and was particularly pleased to see Venezuela's government begin using Freire's approach in the preschools there.
71 - Baritone
Dan,
As you suggest, Frost's sentiments are likely to be born out between now and November 4th.
Ayers has opted out of any involvement. Obama doesn't seem inclined to get into any further details regarding Ayers, ACORN or the rest of it.
Unless the numbers start to turn sharply against him demonstrably owing to these issues, it is very unlikely that Obama will respond any further with this stuff. Is he being less than candid? Perhaps. We may never know.
Obama has resisted being reactionary to McCain. He has maintained an arms length distance and has conducted his campaign on his own terms, rather than being jerked around by McCain. Obama is in the driver's seat with McCain sitting in the back trying in vain to get Obama to turn here or there. Obama remains his own man driving straight ahead focussed on his intended destination.
B
72 - bliffle
Dan(Miller) says:
"In view of the claims floating around that Mr. Ayers has had a substantial impact on Senator Obama's philosophy, educational and otherwise, I would very much like to hear either or both of them speak authoritatively on the subject."
Claim? What a stupid basis for discovery!
If some nut claims that McCain picked Palin because he was plucking her and really enjoyed it, would that justify an investigation?
How dumb can you be?
73 - Cindy D
Slam on Obama may cost Republican
ST. PAUL, MINN. " After saying on MSNBC's Hardball that Barack Obama "may have anti-American views," Republican U.S. Rep. Michele Bachmann finds herself fending off criticism from former Secretary of State Colin Powell, a Republican, and Democratic House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.
The comments by Bachmann, R-Minn., uncorked a gusher of donations to her opponent.
Democrat Elwyn Tinklenberg said his campaign brought in $810,000 in less than 72 hours " it took the former Minnesota state transportation commissioner a year to raise $1 million before that.
On Sunday, Bachmann told WCCO-TV in Minneapolis that her comments about Obama had been misread.
"I feel his views are concerning, and I'm calling on the media to investigate them," Bachmann told the station. "I'm not saying that his views are anti-American."
Yeah, sure you're not.
74 - Jet
I'm sure Chicago isn't too happy with McCain after his remarks about their politics and Obama
75 - Cindy D
People are tired of this crap. They seem to be taking their power back by funding the opponent of every right wing bastard that comes along.
Plain just said she would like to see a Federal ban on same sex marriage. Good for her. I hope that costs her a lot.
She's hanging with her base now. Doing interviews with the 700 club and other freaks.