It may well take water cannons and rubber bullets to end a riot, as the residents of London will see first hand. Fortunately, what it would require to prevent violent unrest in the first place is so much less violent and painful.
If only we would do it.
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Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Dave Nalle
I think we're a couple of years away still. Once Obamacare is fully implemented and further unemployment extensions formalize our dolist underclass then you will have the kind of permanently idle, state-funded younger generation who have never worked and have no interest in working and are basically at leisure on the taxpayer's dime. When that class is well enough established then these "riots for fun" will be what they look to in order to address their feeling of boredom and powerlessness.
Dave
2 - Dr Dreadful
The BBC has a piece up today collating no fewer than ten different theories on why the riots happened.
Except for the ones that are completely stupid, most of them have some merit. They paint a much more complex picture than Dave's usual unhelpful kneejerk mud-flinging would have us believe.
The "idle underclass" theory is a bit undercut by the fact that many of those arrested have turned out to be young professionals and university students.
What can I say? Strange things happen to the individual in a mob.
3 - STM
How cfome I didn't see "no respect for authority" anywhere in here.
The standing notion among many in the age group largely responsible for the London riots is that all authority must be bad even if it seeks to keep the peace and uphold the laws that keep us free, and must be especially gets in the way of stopping "us" from doing whatever the fuck we like, whenever we like.
Britain could spend a few billion restoring its old national service military system. 18 months in the military might teach people some personal responsibility, help them to move forward and out of the welfare trap, and teach some adult-style self discipline.
Provided, of course, no one who enters service this way is packed off to a war zone.
I don't suppose anyone noticed that the rioters were people of all races??
In Britain, this lack of respect for any kind of authority - state or parental - goes far beyond race. It's a mindset that has been created by a system that encourages, as Dave points out, idleness, boredom, petty crime and lack of responsibility beyond "what's right for me".
4 - Dr Dreadful
Stan, how does this episode compare to the '05 riots in your city, from your perspective?
5 - zingzing
dave: "I think we're a couple of years away still."
compare that to the fact that you said obama would have to unleash the tanks in 2009. good to see you've calmed a bit.
6 - Cannonshop
Maybe we'll get rioting, but maybe we won't. There are a couple of factors in the U.S. that argue that if we get riots, they'll be in places that typically host riots, like Los Angeles, Detroit, Chicago, and New York.
Politics is a reflection of culture, and riots like these are an extension of politics. What is unlikely, is that the rioting (if it occurs) is going to be as large in scale relative to the population, or as long-term destructive, as London's riots are.
I suspect the difference is cultural-"rioting for sport" really hasn't happened much in the U.S. since the late 1960's, whereas Britain is rather well known for rioting over such petty things as sports (the term "Soccer Riot" or "Football Riot" originate there, after all...)
7 - zingzing
"hooliganism" is what you're looking for there cannonshop. how's the patriot act? to answer your question, "never!"
8 - STM
Doc, the Cronulla riots or the Macquarie Fields riots?
Cronulla riots were a reaction to racial tensions that had been bubbling ... a clash of cultures, if you like. Aussie girls getting abused at the beach for wearing bikinis, and a lifesaver getting bashed up. So what happens, a group of idiots then goes out and bashes anyone of "middle-eastern" appearance. Fine, be angry about people coming to this country and not accepting our way of life - why come in the first place - but be mindful that it's confined to a small group.
The Macquarie Fields rioting was more like this, although the rioters were mindful not to torch cars, etc, or loot shops, because they knew the effect it would have on their community. Torching someone's car or house when they are struggling just like you is pretty dumb. Torching the local supermarket is pretty dumb too. They confined their attacks to the police, mostly. It did go for five days, though, and had the same spark factor - anger at how police had treated one of their own. All the same criteria applies: welfare, crime, hopelessness, public housing ghettos, the cycle of poverty, etc.
But this, what we've seen in England, I believe is the end result of an overly liberal attitude to bringing up kids ... the result being total lack of consideration for anyone but themselves.
I understand how things work in the UK and there's a thin line between looking after people to the point where they no longer care and looking after people so that they might better - for want of a better word - themselves by getting jobs and getting out of their current situations. It's always on a knife edge, in my opinion.
In this case, it took nothing to tip it over. That young people from all levels of society became involved says a lot about necessary liberal values that have become a tad too liberal.
9 - STM
Here's some great quotes on the UK riots in today's news reports (you'll probably get 'em in the US tomorrow, my time):
In Manchester, ransacked by a mob on Wednesday, judge Alan Berg spoke for millions of law-abiding Britons when two looters were brought before him.
``You have all the benefits in this country which individuals in other countries would pray for and you bring shame and disgrace upon this country as a whole and upon yourselves and your families,'' he said.
``You do nothing constructive. Everything you do is destructive. This was intolerable lawlessness and no civilised society should be expected to put up with it."
Yep, the man's right.
Bring back caning in schools, too. Makes you think twice before you open your mouth, although given how kids are today, any teacher trying to cane a 16-year-old on the hand would likely be at risk of stabbing or shooting, or at the very least, a pounding.
10 - Cannonshop
#7 "How's the Patriot Act?" Um, a problem, a law without reason, a writ of Imperium, a danger to Civil Liberties, take your pick.
That, and thanks for the term-I was trying to remember it, "Hooliganism".
11 - STM
That's indeed what this was ... hooliganism.
Nothing more than criminal. The pity is, that they can't work out such a simple thing, or if they can, that they don't give a rat's arse.
12 - zingzing
cannonshop: ""How's the Patriot Act?" Um, a problem, a law without reason, a writ of Imperium, a danger to Civil Liberties, take your pick."
and... still waiting for your history on right wing opposition to it in 2002 and 2006.
as far as the riots go, it is hooliganism, but can you blame them? their anger is not heard otherwise. i guess it's stupid, going after their own neighborhood and all... and hitting a record distribution site... oi... that's a blow... if they'd hit their actual targets it would bet better, but that's not the nature of the beast.
13 - Christopher Rose
I think it is more complicated than that, Stan.
Absolutely, attacking people and burning buildings is unacceptable, but let's not forget that the straw that broke this camel's back was the police apparently murdering someone they thought was shooting at them but actually wasn't. That isn't even the first time this year the police have killed someone in dubious circumstances.
Obviously the violence and other criminality is unacceptable and needs to be dealt with under the law but we need to keep sight of the fact that anybody - yes, anybody - can be driven to bad behaviour if put under enough pressure and stressed enough.
14 - STM
Rosey: "the police apparently murdering someone they thought was shooting at them but actually wasn't."
Come on Rosey, that may be the case but the guy was known to carry a firearm, a loaded firearm was reportedly found at the scene, and the task force involved in the death is tasked with investigating the black-on-black gun crime that is a blight on some of London's neighbourhoods.
It's an easy thing to have happen in those circumstances, especially when the cops are a bit jumpy or have had people taking potshots at them in the past. Not saying that Duggan had done that because there's nothing to support that. However, carrying a loaded illegal firearm in the UK is a very serious criminal offence. Had the cops nailed him far that, he might have done some serious porridge. Nothing excuses it (the killing), and the force needs to weed out trigger-happy cops, but essentially, the task force was commissioned to protect black communities in London from the growing scourge of gun crime. Read: gun/gang/drug murders committed by very dangerous individuals. I mean, call me old fashioned, but I actually think that's a good thing. So do most of the people in these communities who are suffering terribly at the hands of these gangs.
I don't agree, however, that there can be even a single excuse for what followed. You live in a free society where flouting the law carries its own inherent dangers. One would hope the coppers would be able to make an arrest or a car stop without killing someone.
Should that not be the case, however, there are other avenues for redress - as Mark Duggan's family have themselves pointed out.
You know as well as I do how transparent Britain's system of justice is, and how these things are addressed in full public view. There is an Independent Police Complaints Commission that is not under the thumb of the police and will independently make its findings.
Yes, be pissed off about a bloke getting shot. It's crap and shouldn't happen, but all the circumstances and the history of what happened afterwards are worth examining.
But don't use it as an excuse to go out and torch buildings and cars and revert to looting.
Even if you can understand the fury in Tottenham, it doesn't excuse the opportunistic jumping on the bandwagon that happened across the rest of the capital and the country.
It is simply criminal. There is no other word to describe, and it's inexcusable in a country like Britain, one of the leading lights of modern liberal democracy.
Like the judge above says, people have things in Britain and freedoms that others can only dream about, and some think it's OK to do this.
I don't care whether there was a spark for it. It's just bollocks to try to offer any excuses at all.
Most of the later rioting and looting, BTW,seemed confined to anywhere selling electrical goods.
Read what you like into that, but last time I checked, burning shops, cars and homes, smashing windows and stealing TVs were still crimes in the UK.
15 - Christopher Rose
Stan, you are really turning into the classic grumpy old man!
You are the one that is making excuses - for the police.
There is a lot of resentment at all levels about many things in this country, which is why we have seen people of a wide range of social backgrounds and situations involved in these events.
That isn't to excuse or condone these occurrences, just as one wouldn't condone an argument in a bar that turned into a brawl, but these things happen and to take your line, that it is all the fault of the rioters, will achieve nothing except to guarantee that it will happen again.
There is a huge difference between believing someone is armed - in this case with some kind of bb gun - when going to arrest somebody and shooting them dead for no reason.
the police are trained professionals so it is simply unacceptable to suggest that they might have been a bit jumpy - and then criticising ordinary people for over-reacting!
Furthermore, I haven't said that what happened to Duggan justified what followed and nor do I believe that.
On the other hand, asking people to be completely rational about things is just absurd and unrealistic. So it is actually your arguments that is bollocks, to use your phrase against you!
16 - Jordan Richardson
I'm having a hard time believing that the groups of young men in designer track suits organizing themselves using BlackBerry Messenger on their new smart phones and carrying tall boys really give a shit about Duggan or any sort of social or political causes. I think many, if not most, of the rioters simply wanted to get in on the action and have a chance to break stuff and steal things and, yes, hurt people. There's a mentality within riots where all bets are off. They think melting in to the crowd offers them protection so they can do things they wouldn't ordinarily do. This explains the mentality of young girls who suddenly imagined it okay to steal from The Bay during the Vancouver Stanley Cup riots in June.
It's hard to consider the punks who robbed the Malaysian student in need of help as anything less than crooks. Or the punks who ran down three men trying to protect their neighbourhood. Or the 22-year-old shithead who killed the 68-year-old man trying to put out fires.
What these actions do is take away from any originating cause. It's like when we had "activists" for the homeless come and trash our streets, creating more economic strife in the process and damaging the neighbourhoods, businesses and services that many less fortunate come to depend on for help.
It's sad.
17 - Christopher Rose
I wouldn't say that the rioters cared about Duggan or social/political causes on a personal level but there is a widespread feeling of resentment in many countries about the way the game is organised.
I completely agree with you, Jordan, about the three cases you highlight above.
In many senses, what is happening in the English Summer isn't that different to what happened in the Arab Spring - or indeed in the kind of frustration that the Tea Party seems to act as a lightning conductor for in the USA.
You can also see similar riots or protests happening in a very wide range of countries, including such places as India and China.
It doesn't really require a great deal of insight to see that there is quite a widespread resentment that political and business systems the world over are not serving the needs of people or that the growing chasms between the winners and the losers of the current systems are producing extreme tensions that will explode into "irrational" activity.
It is for these reasons that I don't agree that these actions, terrible as they are, really do "take away from any originating cause", just as equally deplorable excesses in Egypt, Tunisia or Libya didn't negate the situations there.
18 - Baronius
There have been US riots, or at least flash riots. I've read about them in Chicago and Philadelphia, and other cities have experienced them.
19 - John Lake
Minorities in Britain are subject to the British cavalier attitude which makes them invisible. They have we are told no one fighting for their education and employment. They probably have good cause that brings them to the point of rioting, though the rioting takes the form of stealing expensive shoes, and items of greater value.
America is not so snooty, and minorities have no reason to riot. Cuts in entitlement programs are wisely scheduled for some future time.
However the American people, adults, are savvy, and when they see that representatives become smug in doing the work of soulless corporations, with disdain for the will of the people, it is that sort of injustice that will bring them to the streets.
20 - John Lake
As an afterthought I can't imagine anyone rioting over the "patriot act." Honest people are by far the majority and have little to hide. Many are however offended by G.W.Bush era tactics such as enhanced interrogation, and that is just the sort of thing to bring people to their feet.
21 - Dr Dreadful
the police are trained professionals so it is simply unacceptable to suggest that they might have been a bit jumpy
Firearms officers are trained to use restraint but also to shoot without hesitation if they deem that there is an imminent mortal threat.
That training is absolutely sound, because in a situation where guns are involved the moment in which you hesitate to shoot can easily be your last.
Which is also why those officers are trained to shoot to kill, because that is the only guaranteed way to stop a person with a gun.
Since we weren't there, we have no way of knowing what the specific situation was when the officer pulled the trigger on Duggan, but I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt that in that moment he sincerely judged either his or someone else in the immediate vicinity's life to be in danger.
That he later turned out to be wrong is appalling and tragic, but in no way an excuse for the Neanderthal behaviour that followed.
22 - John Lake
The bullet found lodged in the police officers radio turned out to be a police bullet. It is reported that although the killed Duggan was carrying a firearm, the gun was wrapped in a bag and not fired. American police are trained in the use of firearms, and have daily occasions when the training is recalled. In London, phasers and battons can be used effectively to limit the loss of life, in this case, the lives of young people.
23 - zingzing
baronius: "There have been US riots, or at least flash riots. I've read about them in Chicago and Philadelphia, and other cities have experienced them."
those weren't really riots, although i guess the immediate effect, if not the duration, is pretty much the same...
24 - Dr Dreadful
John, even though every American police officer carries a firearm, that doesn't mean every one of them uses his or her weapon every day.
For example, my friend Ted was a cop in a major California urban area for 30 years and never had to fire his gun in the course of duty (although he says there were one or two close calls).
In the UK, despite the gang problem, the incidence of gun crime is far, far lower than in the US. Consequently, the number of police officers authorized to use guns is also very small, and in fact the only officers in most forces who do carry are organized into small, mobile, dedicated quick-response firearms units.
I don't know if there are any stats to support this assumption, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if the average British firearms officer is called upon to fire a gun more often in the course of his or her career than the average American cop.
25 - John Lake
I'm still lost as to the ref to the Patriot Act.