The causes that The Washington Post traces for the London riots should sound disturbingly familar.
In an editorial published Wednesday, The Washington Post seeks to sketch out the underlying causes behind the riots which have now burned London for days.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments126 - roger nowosielski
Don't worry about mixed metaphors or misleading analogies, Cindy. Jordan's sophistry is made of such things.
127 - roger nowosielski
That makes you, shall I say ... an outcast?
(No offense intended.)
128 - Dr Dreadful
Now we're beginning to see a return to a mode of engagement and confrontation.
Well, Roger, why don't you whizz on over to the UK and talk to the rioters about engagement and confrontation, and see how far you get.
129 - roger nowosielski
You're not suggesting, I hope, your countrymen are that dumb? And thousands and thousands of them?
130 - Dr Dreadful
I find Doc's point about the nature of politicians equally misleading. Firstly, there is a huge gulf between a working class and a middle class family. Secondly because whilst every Prime Minister since the 60s might not have come from the upper classes, they certainly had an upper class education and bought into the system, which is effectively the same thing.
I don't really see what's wrong with that. Everybody except for the impractically rich, the suicidal and the completely dysfunctional wants a better life, and if "buying into the system" is what gets you one, why blame the purchasers?
I don't know about you, but I'd find a PM without a good quality education a bit suspect. (As far as "upper class" educations are concerned, whereas it's indeed been de rigeur for Tory prime ministers to have attended Oxford or Cambridge, the same isn't true of Labour PMs, so I'm not convinced by that one either.)
With the exception of Cameron, who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth (though he nonetheless seems a very able fellow), our recent PMs have "bought into the system" through their own hard work and, in some cases, through their parents'.
Now if these gentlemen and lady had got where they were by stepping on the heads of others and pushing them down the social ladder to replace them, or if it could be shown that this underclass has increased as a percentage of the population in recent times, your point might be valid.
131 - Dr Dreadful
You're not suggesting, I hope, your countrymen are that dumb? And thousands and thousands of them?
[sigh] Roger, I've seldom come across anyone who's as much a stranger to reality as you.
Even Dave makes more sense.
132 - Dr Dreadful
If you could furnish a photo of even one rioter holding a protest sign, that would be something...
133 - troll
I imagine that there is a fair amount of afterglow organizing around ideas of engagement and confrontation going on without Rog investing in plane fare -- it's a basic rule for radicals to use crises as 'teachable moments' right?
...maybe with luck some decent mutual aid groups will be strengthened as a side effect
134 - troll
dreadful - that's a good slogan for the campaign trail:
Dave Makes More Sense
...I like it
135 - iball
Why are these youths looting and destroying shops and homes in the UK and getting themselves in trouble with the authorities, when they could head over to Libya, join the rebels, "legally" loot and destroy homes and businesses, even kill people, and then return to the UK to a hero's welcome?
Don't they want to better themselves?
136 - roger nowosielski
@131
Dreadful, you're just throwing hands up in the air rather than deal with what I said? Weren't you implying that your countrymen don't know their asses from their elbows when you suggested I talk to them? And if not, then what exactly was the purport of your communication?
As to Dave, yes, he does make more sense than the many of you who just can't tolerate any kind of disagreement - in his own kind of way. At least Dave will go to great lengths to explain his political philosophy when you treat him with respect. You can discuss things with Dave. This hasn't been my experience with this site's liberals (and mind you, I'm not accusing you of being one).
137 - Dr Dreadful
Weren't you implying that your countrymen don't know their asses from their elbows when you suggested I talk to them?
No, I was suggesting that you don't know yours from yours.
138 - Christopher Rose
Doc, wanting a better life and buying into a system that is clearly dysfunctional are poles apart.
I don't think a good education is necessary to be a good politician. What a good politician needs to be is an effective manager, honest and non partisan.
As to Labour PMs, Tony Blair WAS educated at Oxford and Gordon Brown at Edinburgh University, both firmly part of the establishment and about as far from working class as you can get.
I've no idea what you're on about with your reference to people becoming successful by stepping on others, nor do I see its relevance.
Finally, the size of the underclass HAS been growing steadily for the last 30 years.
139 - Dr Dreadful
Me: If you could furnish a photo of even one rioter holding a protest sign, that would be something...
Roger: [crickets]
No? Then allow me to be of service...
140 - roger nowosielski
@137, then you're just being rude.
141 - Dr Dreadful
Doc, wanting a better life and buying into a system that is clearly dysfunctional are poles apart.
Is the current system more dysfunctional than 1st century Rome, or feudalism, or the Industrial Revolution which cared so little about its underclass that it sent women and children as young as four down mines and up chimneys with no hope of ever escaping that life, and beggars were as commonplace as on the streets of Indian cities?
While I agree with you that Stan paints too rosy a picture of modern Britain, he's right that few people are starving or forced into that kind of life.
It's fascinating how people tend to perceive that of all the eras in history, the one they personally are living through just happens to represent the zenith of social malaise or the precipice before the fall or the End Times or whatever. I mean, what are the chances?
I don't think a good education is necessary to be a good politician. What a good politician needs to be is an effective manager, honest and non partisan.
Hmm. By those criteria the last one of those we had was Churchill, and then only for five of his various years in office.
As to Labour PMs, Tony Blair WAS educated at Oxford and Gordon Brown at Edinburgh University
And Wilson and Callaghan?
I've no idea what you're on about with your reference to people becoming successful by stepping on others, nor do I see its relevance.
My point is that I'm not convinced "buying into the system" automatically perpetuates an underclass.
Finally, the size of the underclass HAS been growing steadily for the last 30 years.
If by "underclass" we should read "poverty level", then you're correct that it has grown since 1980, although not steadily, at least according to this source.
142 - Christopher Rose
Doc, I've no idea about 1st Century Rome or feudalism but I think that, yes, the current system probably IS more dysfunctional than the Industrial Revolution.
As to starvation, according to the BBC tonight, there are over 1.4 million children in the UK living below the poverty line, so at least double that when you add in their parents, then factor in poor adults and even poorer old age pensioners and we might be talking about 3 to 6 million people or 5 to 10% of the population.
That may not be starvation on a par with what is happening in Eastern Africa right now but it is certainly a lot of people going hungry tonight.
Maybe Churchill WAS our last great PM; clearly, however, the establishment couldn't tolerate him a moment longer than absolutely necessary.
Wilson DID go to Oxford and even lectured there whilst and Callaghan tried but failed and became a leading civil servant before entering politics. Both establishment to the core then, Doc.
I didn't say that buying into the system perpetuates an underclass, so you are arguing with yourself on this point.
I don't think that the underclass and the poor are interchangeable terms, although obviously closely related.
As someone who feels disenfranchised by the system in my country, I identify more with the underclass than the establishment although, as I said earlier, I don't feel wanted by or want to be part of either.
143 - handyguy
Assuming that all or most of the rioters have political motivations is an assertion without evidence.
A significant number of young men in interviews seem to indicate they have been brainwashed by materialism: "I want that stuff, so I'm gonna take it. I'm entitled to a nice big flat screen just because."
But then there were the people who took bottles of water, or handfuls of candy.
And those that burned buildings.
Perhaps there is no principal motivation, beyond "kicks." Some of it reminds me of "A Clockwork Orange" -- which [the original novel] was disturbingly ambiguous about the motivations and "cures" for antisocial violence.
144 - troll
Rog #123 many senses of "dependence" may be at work as well, troll.
true -- thus the need to register dissent against STM's framing
145 - roger nowosielski
Which is precisely what I've done. The rest is predictable though. Whenever a pet liberal formulation is challenged, they all jump to the rescue.
146 - handyguy
If you'd stop using "liberal" as an all-purpose pejorative, applying it to people who have very little in common, you'd have a lot more credibility...and not just with so-called "liberals."
It's bad enough when right-wingers lump everyone to their left together into one convenient target. It is no more accurate, and just as obnoxious, when the fire comes from the left.
147 - roger nowosielski
I'd gladly do so when I'll see less and less evidence of what surely comes across as a nearly-identical, group-like response from yourself, Glenn, Jordan and zingzing.
148 - handyguy
And STM too? Give us a break. In this thread especially, your tendency to over-simplify various shades of meaning in order to pin dumb labels on people is way off base.
149 - cindy
Christopher,
I am sure that I have no idea what is meant by 'dominant' in the uses I am seeing here.
Dominant culture consist of that part of the culture which may exercise the political power, it should not be construed as those who get the most hand outs. It is those who make laws and get elected and those who command markets who are the dominant culture. The rest of the mass culture is very busy either sopping up versions of the latest 'in' in social reality or reacting against it or perhaps doing various other things I haven't considered here.
150 - cindy
135 - ;-)
151 - cindy
As to starvation, according to the BBC tonight, there are over 1.4 million children in the UK living below the poverty line...
How does that reconcile with the version of dominant you mean Christopher? I am thinking about what happens when they grow up, potentially angry about the circumstances forced upon them.
Also, that seems quite different from Stan's version of a 3 bedroom house in every 'pot'...
Stan, how did 1.4 million kids get to be below the poverty line in the land of plenty where the are members of the 'dominant' culture?
152 - roger nowosielski
Wasn't trying to oversimplify anything, Handy, only provide a friendly push and shove to make people clarify their meanings. You should be familiar by now with my methods.
And I do thank you, BTW, for identifying me correctly as "being from the left," I mean it. The other day I was called by Glenn a "tea party extremist," or something to that effect.
153 - handyguy
Children in poverty in the UK = 2.5% of the total population.
Children in poverty in the US - 5% of the population.
Not taking a side in the STM/Christopher/Cindy discussion, but:
It does seem that by this measure at least the UK is more egalitarian than the US.
154 - roger nowosielski
Cindy, don't you think Chris was making a somewhat valid point about there being more than one frame of reference? Considering a number of his comments on this thread, shouldn't you view him as an ally?
155 - handyguy
Well, Roger, you do keep praising the Tea Party, even though I suspect you agree with just about none of their "ideas." And you share this with them: sometimes your combativeness is more visible than any rigorous fact-checking in your assertions. You think loudmouth shouters serve a useful purpose. I generally disagree.
156 - Clavos
It's bad enough when right-wingers lump everyone to their left together into one convenient target.
Pot? Kettle?
Didn't you do just that in that sentence?
157 - handyguy
There's plenty of 'lumping together' on all sides in politics, Clavos, it's true. I was making a rhetorical point about Roger, so I spoke in shorthand. But your rhetoric, Nalle's rhetoric, and the Tea Party's rhetoric do seem to be coalescing in ways I wouldn't have thought likely a few years ago. I don't see this as a favorable development in the history of ideas.
158 - roger nowosielski
I recognize the Tea Party as a populous movement, Handy, that's all. And any populous movement, in my political playbook, deserves serious attention.
159 - roger nowosielski
"You think loudmouth shouters serve a useful purpose."
Never even intimated such a thing.
160 - cindy
154
Ally?
What in my comment to Chris did you take as indicating that I was being anything but friendly and cordial to Chris and his pov?
I thought I was embarking on a real conversation with him. Perhaps I just don't know how to act.
161 - Jordan Richardson
Lay off, Jordan. Stan doesn't need an advocate, and I don't need your bullshit.
Still having trouble pointing out the contradiction huh? Maybe you should look before you leap.
Highly ironic that you tell me to "lay off," by the way.
162 - cindy
I was also addressing Stan in my comment to Chris, Roger. Probably wasn't that clear. Perhaps you saw that as relating to Chris' comment rather than Stan's.
163 - Jordan Richardson
Jordan's sophistry is made of such things.
You wish. Kinda weird how you can't actually point out what the problem is, but I guess you're more than comfortable pecking away from your position of relative comfort. Nice housecoat.
164 - Jordan Richardson
You should be familiar by now with my methods.
1. Miss the original point by a mile.
2. Mischaracterize and stereotype the person making the original point.
3. Judge based on the incorrect stereotype.
4. Ignore any subsequent replies or dialogue.
5. Repeat 10x.
6. Leave conversation in a huff.
Yeah, your "methods" are terrific, Roger.
165 - roger nowosielski
I'm aware of that. Still, I'm more than pleasantly surprised by Chris's no-nonsense, levelheaded response. I find it all the more significant that he speaks as his own person, in spite of the fact that some of it challenges the view by the fellow Brits.
166 - roger nowosielski
You know, Jordan, that I'm going to ignore your wrath, so why bother?
Save your energy, bro.
167 - Jordan Richardson
You know, Jordan, that I'm going to ignore your wrath, so why bother?
Because you think you can piss on everyone and not be held accountable, Roger. Because you fancy your "methods" as working when they're nothing but a smokescreen for when you get shit really, really wrong. And because you said "bro." And because your promises to ignore me are about as honest and heartfelt as your repeated exits are.
Talk about sophistry.
168 - handyguy
I guess the KKK could be viewed as a populist [or even "populous"] movement as well.
#165 = wickedly funny and quite accurate.
169 - roger nowosielski
I ignore you, Jordan, because you're acting like a child. Re-read this thread, including troll's comments, and if and when you'll come to your senses, I'll start taking you seriously. Right now, all you display is an emotional reaction.
170 - roger nowosielski
Well, I submit it ought to have been taken seriously as well, and it was.
171 - Dr Dreadful
Roger, I bet if you looked up the word ignore in the dictionary, it wouldn't offer the definition "to respond to Jordan within 7 minutes".
172 - cindy
166 - I agree, Roger. I probably should have displayed more of my actual positive feelings regarding reading Chris' pov. I did feel them.
(It's just I am fighting with physical therapists who seem to think their job is to guess what cuts to my husband's treatment the insurance company may want and beat them to the punch in cutting him off. Meanwhile, in a damn weird tern, the insurance company is claiming they have no part in this and it is all on the therapists. They have even referred me to other rehabilitation services. I have no clue who to trust. They consider my husband done and are shoving him out the door, when I casually point out that they have not even begun working with him on full height steps and he might need to have that skill--among other things. It makes me very not inclined to notice positive things. My apologies.)
173 - cindy
tern? a little bird that runs along the shoreline? ha! i meant 'turn'.
174 - cindy
Other viewpoint #1:
The riots happened at a particular moment, a moment when capitalism is in deep crisis. Indeed the riots occurred at the same time as yet another crash in global markets. The two competed with each other to be the lead story on the news. This is not a coincidence; the crash, and the cuts unleashed to impose it’s costs on ordinary people, mean not only rocketing unemployment but also the slashing of public services. And while the focus is on the estimated £200 million of destruction caused by the rioting, this pales into insignificance in comparison with the huge destruction of wealth taking place on the stock exchanges. Likewise, while the media focus has been on the hundreds of workers and small business owners who will face unemployment because of the destruction of their workplaces, the system that bred the riot has refused work to millions - around one million people between the ages of 16 and 24 are unemployed in the UK today.
Now, in the aftermath, it has become clear that those who made the mistake of taking what they had been told to desire are to be brutality punished, to set an example to others that the laws of property are to be respected at all costs - after all, if we could all take what we needed where would be the room for capitalism? There is no other explanation for the sentences handed down, which have included six months for taking bottled water worth £3.50!
And, of course, the bankers that triggered far more destruction and unemployment have been rewarded rather than facing similar punishment. Russell Brand asks, in a blog post on the riots, “How should we describe the actions of the city bankers that brought our economy to its knees in 2010? Altruistic? Mindful? Kind? But then again, they do wear suits, so they deserve to be bailed out, perhaps that’s why not one of them has been imprisoned. And they got away with a lot more than a few fucking pairs of trainers.”
175 - cindy
Other viewpoint #2:
The fury of the estates is what it is, ugly and uncontrolled. But not unpredictable. Britain has hidden away its social problems for decades, corralled them with a brutal picket of armed men. Growing up in the estates often means never leaving them, unless it’s in the back of a police van. In the 1980s, these same problems led to Toxteth. In the ’90s, contributed to the Poll Tax riots. And now we have them again " because the problems are not only still there, they’re getting worse.
Police harassment and brutality are part of everyday life in estates all around the UK. Barely-liveable benefits systems have decayed and been withdrawn. In Hackney, the street-level support workers who came from the estates and knew the kids, could work with them in their troubles have been told they will no longer be paid. Rent is rising and state-sponsored jobs which used to bring money into the area are being cut back in the name of a shift to unpaid “big society” roles. People who always had very little now have nothing. Nothing to lose.
And the media’s own role in all of this should not be discounted. For all the talk of the “peaceful protest” that preceded events in Tottenham, the media wouldn’t have touched the story if all that happened was a vigil outside a police station. Police violence and protests against it happen all the time. It’s only when the other side responds with violence (on legitimate targets or not) that the media feels the need to give it any sort of coverage.
So there should be no shock that people living lives of poverty and violence have at last gone to war. It should be no shock that people are looting plasma screen TVs that will pay for a couple of months’ rent and leaving books they can’t sell on the shelves. For many, this is the only form of economic redistribution they will see in the coming years as they continue a fruitless search for jobs.
Much has been made of the fact that the rioters were attacking “their own communities.” But riots don’t occur within a social vacuum. Riots in the eighties tended to be directed in a more targeted way; avoiding innocents and focusing on targets more representative of class and race oppression: police, police stations, and shops. What’s happened since the eighties? Consecutive governments have gone to great lengths to destroy any sort of notion of working class solidarity and identity. Is it any surprise, then, that these rioters turn on other members of our class?