The causes that The Washington Post traces for the London riots should sound disturbingly familar.
In an editorial published Wednesday, The Washington Post seeks to sketch out the underlying causes behind the riots which have now burned London for days.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Dr Dreadful
zingzing has for some time been challenging Cannonshop to provide support for his claim that the passing of the Patriot Act (which both agree is draconian) was entirely the responsibility of liberals and/or Democrats - apparently without success so far.
27 - Glenn Contrarian
But Doc - isn't that the way it is? We're not supposed to blame the Republicans for anything since two wars, Medicare Part D, and the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy somehow don't count anymore!
But they can blame us for whatever they want, whenever they want, without anything to back up their claims!
C'mon, Doc - get with the program!
28 - Glenn Contrarian
And Doc -
You might like this research paper that shows a strong connection between austerity and anarchy.
29 - Costello
If they attacked objects of their oppression, they might generate some sympathy, but it's just a bunch of impotent goons out for cheap, easy thrills
30 - John Lake
The Patriot Act as we recall came shortly after the 9/11 attacks and was overwhelmingly supported by both political parties in the House and Senate.
31 - zingzing
not according to cannonshop's version of history.
32 - Clavos
@#16:
Good comment, Jordan!
33 - STM
Rosey: "You are the one that is making excuses - for the police."
Well, no, what I'm doing is giving you a bit of my first-hand experience.
The police have a tough job to do. I know very well how tough because I worked for much of my life as a crime reporter, where this sort of thing occasionally happened.
I'm not making excuses ... I'm saying it can happen, even if it shouldn't.
When you're out dealing everyday with drug dealers and people walking around with loaded guns, something like that is bound to happen at some point.
Mark Duggan shouldn't have been shot. There are means of redress that don't involve burning, looting and killing.
Simple as that. I'm really wondering where your head's at on this one, Chris.
I wonder what those blighted communities in London would be doing WITHOUT the police presence that is aimed at keeping 99 per cent of them - the law-abiding proportion - safe from the other 1 per cent who think they can do whatever they like. That also appears to be the view of most of the people I've seen interviewed in these communities.
"Innitt?" And, seriously, don't they teach English in UK schools anymore?
34 - STM
John Lake: "Minorities in Britain are subject to the British cavalier attitude which makes them invisible."
What an absolute load of bollocks John. Minorities in the UK are treated far better than they are in the US.
There are laws applied very seriously against such things as racial vilification.
In many respects, it is a far more tolerant and liberal place than the US when it comes to this stuff. You see far fewer street people in the UK, because the government houses them wherever possible. Far fewer people starve or are forced to beg. That is just one example.
It is, in my experience, a very compassionate society ... far more so than what I've seen in the US.
With respect, you are talking through your arse.
35 - Cannonshop
#26 I never claimed it was entirely Liberals who passed it-but they sure as hell raced to keep it on the books when it should have 'sunset', and THAT's the issue on a partisan level, The Dems helped pass it initially, then, kept it on the books when they KNOW it's a bad idea, that the provisions are a massive power-grab against the citizenry, etc. etc.
It's one of those things that they could dismantle and remain true to their party platform, that they won't, shows them for the same grasping power-addicts that they paint the GOP as being.
36 - zingzing
what you said was that the gop was always against the patriot act, if i'm not mistaken. in 2002 and 2006, they voted for it almost unanimously, which certainly does not sound like any type of opposition. in 2002, the dems were nearly as guilty, but in 2006, they certainly were not.
37 - STM
And as for my comparisons, John, I'm Australian so I don't really give a shit one way or the other.
I'm basing my views on what I know and have seen, having spent a fair bit of time both in the US and the UK, and using that as the benchmark.
This really wasn't about minorities, anyhow, beyond the anger in Tottenham. The rest of it was opportunistic criminality pursued by people of all races, colours and creeds - and from all walks of life.
That's why nothing excuses it. Social networking might have had something to do with it, which is the only way it bears ANY comparison to the so-called Arab Spring.
Roset calling it the English Summer is laughable. I'm surprised at you, Chris, honestly. You probably don't give a rat's, I'm sure, but I never thought I'd see you making that kind of comparison.
Arab Spring = We want to be free of dictators so we can have the kind of lives those in the west have.
English Summer = We want to set a building alight for fun after we've bashed a few people up and knocked off a free Toshiba flat screen.
Fair dinkum ...
38 - STM
As for John's comments, I sometimes wonder whether Americans have a wire loose between their brains and their mouths (or their fingertips, in this case), and just go off half-cocked and spout the first thing that comes into their heads.
Condemnation prior to investigation is the first resort of those with half a clue.
Have you lived there John? Or even been there for any period of time?
Just asking, 'cos it doesn't seem so. If you had, you wouldn't have written that rubbish.
I suspect if we are making comparisons, the truth is closer to the so-called underclass in the US being so broken and downtrodden and so removed from mainstream society, they no longer even feel like an underclass but something completely separate, and no longer even possess the wherewithal to riot.
The crumbling edifice that was Detroit is a classic example. No city in Britain resembles the barren wasteland of Detroit, thank God. Not yet, anyway.
39 - Christopher Rose
I don't think you are understanding what I am saying, STM, and when I factor in the unusual for you spluttering you are directing to people like JL, you really are sounding like a grumpy old man!
Whilst there are obvious differences between both the UK and the USA and the Arab Spring and the English Summer, if you think that there aren't huge financial, political and social tensions rippling through a lot of countries all around the world, then you are fooling yourself.
People don't always act in rational ways and simply chuffing on about how specific actions were wrong, which they were, is completely missing the point.
40 - Arch Conservative
"There have been US riots, or at least flash riots. I've read about them in Chicago and Philadelphia, and other cities have experienced them."
They are actually called flash mobs and they've been consisting of gangs of blakh youths attacking white and Hispanic people at random.
Of course the mainstream media hasn't bothered to cover it because not politically correct nor part of their agenda to point out when someone who is not a white conservative male has actually done something wrong.
41 - Cindy
2-
Sir Max Hastings, in an article for the Daily Mail, focused on "a perverted social ethos, which elevates personal freedom to an absolute, and denies the underclass the discipline - tough love - which alone might enable some of its members to escape from the swamp of dependency in which they live".
Ah the good ol' swamp of dependency as opposed to the country club of dependency into which Sir fucking Max Hastings (and his class of privileged aristocrats was born) was born.
Really, the fucking gall of these bastards.
42 - Cindy
which elevates personal freedom to an absolute
Maybe the disgruntled poor who need tough love should just ring for the butler like dear old Max.
43 - Cindy
"Bloody hell, things are not going well for us either, Birdie. We've had to sell the summer house in Switzerland."
44 - zingzing
stm: "In many respects, it is a far more tolerant and liberal place than the US when it comes to this stuff."
true.
"You see far fewer street people in the UK, because the government houses them wherever possible."
my experience is 4 or 5 years old at this point (and my extended experience of living there is over a decade ago at this point), but i remember a shitload of homeless. they did have that paper they could sell... real change?... and maybe they hadn't gone to their shelters yet for the night, but there was a massive population of homeless.
"Far fewer people starve or are forced to beg."
it seems to me that most of your experience would then be in more mild-weathered cities in the us. west coast cities seem to have high populations of homeless, but there are shelters as well (not that they are often better than sleeping outdoors).
45 - Clavos
Interestingly, Miami's homeless population fluctuates in tandem with the tourist population: more of both in the winter than in the summer.
46 - Clavos
Also, I wonder if any of you have seen homeless folks with cell phones where you live?
I've seen more than one here...
47 - Christopher Rose
Why not? They are very cheap now...
48 - zingzing
homeless snow birds, clavos?
the homeless that you see in nyc are usually pretty bad-off. apparently, the shelters are well-run (as opposed to the horror stories i heard in seattle), so many of the homeless that live on the streets have mental issues. rare is the day that goes by that i don't see some crazy homeless person (although only in manhattan, never in brooklyn), but it's also rare that i see more than 2 or 3 in my travels. in seattle, i'd see that many in the block and a half to my bus stop. of course, there were several shelters in my neighborhood.
49 - Dr Dreadful
Ah the good ol' swamp of dependency as opposed to the country club of dependency into which Sir fucking Max Hastings (and his class of privileged aristocrats was born) was born.
Max Hastings isn't an aristocrat. He's a career journalist, the son of a career journalist, and was knighted for his services to journalism.
The true aristocracy in the UK is a very tiny community. Even the majority of peers (lords and ladies) aren't aristocrats: they get elevated to the peerage in recognition of public service or lifetime achievement.
Perhaps, Cindy, you should educate yourself a bit about the British honours system before making snap character judgements. As much as he can be a bit of a dickhead sometimes, Hastings isn't speaking from a position of ignorance.
50 - Vinati
What's Going?? First Jasmine movement at China... Lot of street brawls and enthronements of rulers in various countries, now London Riots... Economies are biting the dust.Youth are growing mad... Youth should use their energy constructively... This is the time for the rulers to introspect... the happenings around the world.
51 - cindy
49 -
I stand corrected on the details. Thanks. The same point still stands sans the 'aristocracy' label. He's still belongs to a part of the culture that is not marginalized and benefits from being dominant.
52 - cindy
Also, I think he is speaking from a position of great ignorance.
53 - roger nowosielski
The interesting thing is, the response of those in power whenever they're threatened is always the same, whether we're talking about Libya, Egypt, Syria or the civilized UK. The dissenters, whatever their crimes, are always marginalized, they're criminals, blah blah blah.
54 - zingzing
if the dissenters had picked better targets, it would have been more satisfying. take it straight to the man, if that's what your goal is. but they destroyed their own neighborhoods. and they took out a record distribution warehouse. i mean come on... fucking up independent record labels ain't cool.
55 - Dr Dreadful
zing's right. Idiots who target regular people aren't "sticking it to the man" or whatever the inane expression is.
In the town I grew up in, the rioters were denied access to the main commercial district by a police cordon, so they picked on a furniture business that had been in the same family since the 1840s - and burned it to the ground. I'm sure you've all seen the pictures.
These people had no specific target; they weren't rebelling for any noble cause; they were just perpetrating random destruction. Actually they're worse than football hooligans because at least football hooligans have a (perverted) focus to their violence. So yes, they're criminals, plain and simple.
56 - roger nowosielski
A convenient way to dismiss thousands of British citizens and guess what, home-educated and homegrown. Says something about the system, doesn't it? Besides, it completely ignores the phenomenon of mass hypnosis and crowd behavior in general.
The Day of the Locust is a good introduction.
57 - roger nowosielski
As an interesting aside, we no longer ascribe the term "lunatic" to a solitary individual who commits a heinous crime. Now we're at liberty to affix the same label to thousands.
58 - zingzing
roger, i'd guess that many individuals would have liked their dissidence to have been more useful instead of destructive. that's the problem with a lot of riots. you end up destroying your neighbors, not your enemy.
innocent people suffered because of this, not the gov't. the gov't looks bad, but they'll still go to work tomorrow, and things will be more strict than ever. many people have lost their businesses or their jobs because of this.
seriously, if you're going to riot against the british gov't, take the tube to parliament, don't fuck up your neighborhood's businesses. that's just fucking dumb.
and the indie record labels... don't forget about the indie record labels...
59 - zingzing
"As an interesting aside, we no longer ascribe the term "lunatic" to a solitary individual who commits a heinous crime."
what makes you say that?
60 - Dr Dreadful
it completely ignores the phenomenon of mass hypnosis and crowd behavior in general.
A poor excuse, Roger. Crowds assemble every day without rioting. It only takes one or a few criminal acts to trigger others to copy, but "everyone else was doing it" doesn't make the copycat any less criminal.
61 - zingzing
i'd like to have an explanation of "mass hypnosis." unless that's just a silly way of saying something.
62 - Dr Dreadful
He's still belongs to a part of the culture that is not marginalized and benefits from being dominant.
Hmm... "marginalized", eh?
You do realize, Cindy, that by definition marginalized people are a tiny segment of the population, and that by your criterion you're disqualifying the vast majority of people from having an opinion?
But that's the way you and Roger have become of late: dismissing those you disagree with because of who (you think) they are, rather than what they have to say.
63 - troll
1. i'd like to have an explanation of "mass hypnosis." unless that's just a silly way of saying something.
zing - are you asking Rog to explain or would you like links to the century of research?
But that's the way you and Roger have become of late: dismissing those you disagree with because of who (you think) they are, rather than what they have to say.
irony in action - see 1.
dreadful - wouldn't it make sense to speak of a (large) population existing on the margins of political power? And if 'marginalized' doesn't accurately express the notion that Cindy is 'pointing' to then what might be another better word?
64 - zingzing
"zing - are you asking Rog to explain or would you like links to the century of research?"
i want roger to explain what he means by it. (also, i'd think that those doing the hypnotizing, if they were any good at hypnosis, would hypnotize you into not doing any research on this hypnosis, but that's just me.)
65 - troll
I think you're simply goading Rog with your 'silly' remark out of hostility
but I should know better than to get involved
66 - zingzing
i think you're assuming too much. but such is the relationship between roger and i. wasn't always that way, until he decided to make it so.
67 - roger nowosielski
Another interesting aside, a modern-day liberal has turned into a law-and-order guy.
Spiro Agnew would be proud.
68 - zingzing
roger, what part of attacking the gov't by attacking the gov't doesn't make sense to you? what's wrong with that idea? why does burning down a local business make more sense to you?
69 - roger nowosielski
Wrong diagnosis, Dreadful. It's because what some people say has become transparent.
It wasn't always so.
And for the record, if I dismissed what you said, what did you do that's different?
70 - troll
... why does burning down a local business make more sense to you?
why should anyone expect a positive outcome to a conversation with someone so obviously hostile
shit - there I go again
71 - troll
...shout-out to Glenn #28
interesting paper
72 - zingzing
"shit - there I go again"
being hostile? yes...
read those questions again without your assumed hostility.
roger's position, it seems to me, is that anyone who doesn't back the rioters burning down their own neighborhoods is a "law-and-order guy," no matter what their real position. that simplifies things down to "for or against," which does no one any good.
i, for one, don't want to see mass arrests or draconian crackdowns. nor do i want to see the police use this as an excuse to seize more powers (which is exactly what they are doing and the obvious outcome of such unfocused violence). nor do i want the gov't looking into how to better control social media (which is exactly what they are doing).
and if people are going to riot, i'd wish they'd have gone after the target of their contempt: the police and the gov't. instead of hitting back at them, the rioters have done nothing but ruin the lives of some of their neighbors, killed some people, created whole new ways in which the gov't will try to control their lives, and maybe they have a nice new flatscreen in the den.
they managed to embarrass the gov't, but they did it no harm, and they have emboldened the gov't in new ways, as real "law-and-order guys" are popping up all over england in response to the riots.
i am very much for the rioters in what they wanted to achieve. what they ended up achieving through their actions was something not so desirable.
73 - troll
right zing
74 - zingzing
mysterious troll
75 - Clavos
I find it passing strange that zing supports the rioters.