If you are feeling vengeful over the London attacks, think. More violence will not improve a dire situation.
The world, for the most part, is in mourning for the horrific attacks that took place in London this morning. In case you were sleeping, England's biggest city was rocked by a series of bombings on the mass-transit system that took at least 37 lives and injured upwards of 700 people. An al-Qaeda group is claiming responsibility for the suicide bombings on three Underground stations and one doubledecker bus.…
Article comments
76 - Dave Nalle
>>MCH, does the chickenhawk meme mean only those who have served can have a pro-war opinion? If so, what makes the opinions of those who haven't served speaking against the war any more valid?
<<
Don't expect a response to that, Ski. MCH likes to call names and run. He's not interested in discussing his prejudices.
Dave
77 - Dave Nalle
HW. There are 60,000 immigrants in the military right now. The are invited into the country to serve in the armed forces or join once they are here. If they meet certain fairly simple criteria they can become citizens at the end of their term of service. To take advantage of this you can't join as an illegal - well, you can join as an illegal, but you'd have to get a green card while in the service, which I believe the services will help you do. But what you can do is go back to Mexico, go to the US Embassy, tell them you want to join our military and they'll get you a green card. With that in hand and a knowledge of English you can get into the country, into the military and eventually become a citizen.
So that's the current policy in a nutshell.
Dave
78 - MCH
Andy and Sarge;
Thanks for your viewpoints regarding the "Chickenhawk argument." As a fellow veteran, I respect your positions on the matter. And although I disagree strongly with your defense of phony hypocrites like R.J. (Bobby) Elliott and Dave Nalle, I would defend to the death your right to voice your opinions.
I do have one question, however. What's your opinion concerning Elliott's public mockery of the appearance of a decorated, dismembered combat vet? On July 31, 2004, R.J. (Bobby) Elliott posted on Blog Critics, that Max Cleland resembled "a gigantic thalidamide baby."
Andy - As for your reference that R.J. is "your hero," personally I would choose a genuinely courageous man, like John McCain, (who served 7 1/2 years as a POW, actually turning down freedom at 5 years because they wouldn't let the rest of his men go at the same time; thereby serving an extra 2 1/2 years in solitary); over a Chickenhawk like Bobby Elliott, who calls anyone opposed to the war a "pinko," and prefers typing macho war letters to actually enlisting, while someone else dies in his place over there, face down in the sand.
Sarge - Thanks for the link, I appreciate it. For an opposing point of view on how other veterans feel about Chickenhawks, go to Veterans Against the Iraq War, www.vaiw.org/vet, and click on "Sound Off Board."
79 - Dave Nalle
>>I would defend to the death your right to voice your opinions.<<
Because only veterans are allowed to have opinions, and only military service is of any value in our society, right MCH?
You know, all those veterans who served did so to preserve our way of life, which includes freedom of speech. Trying to deny freedom of speech to anyone who hasn't served in the military is essentially an insult to every veteran who did serve to protect the right of non veterans to have and express opinions.
Dave
80 - RJ
"RJ - You are my hero! I read through those comments and lost it! and RJ, you can fight the good war right here...you're doing fine!"
Andy, I love you, man. In a Budweiser advertisement kinda way... :)
81 - RJ
as for "Starship Troopers"...in the Book...one of the postulates is that you had to Serve..somehow, not just the military, before you could be a Citizen, vote, or hold elected office
would that that was the Law of our Land
Riiight. You'd rather live in an autocratic, militaristic society where different kinds of people are given different rights...
I doubt you REALLY think that, GM...
82 - RJ
Again, just because some people have apparently missed it, or have chosen to ignore it...
I SERIOUSLY CONSIDERED signing up for the Marines after graduating from High School. I was young and relatively healthy, though my eye-sight sucked and probably would have prevented me from enlisting in any event...
But, my father, who served in the Marines, strongly discouraged me from joining. It was the Clinton military back then, and I was only 17.
So. I went to college, got a couple degrees, and now I'm relatively old and still have shitty eye-sight, and now I can't run a mile without needing a Primatene Mist inhaler.
If I could somehow get sent to Iraq or Afghanistan without having to go through a grueling months-long boot camp with 20-mile hikes and all, which I simply could not physically endure, I would do it.
But there is no exemption for things like that, so I shall remain a civilian.
But the larger point is this: We have about 290 MILLION people in this country. About half support the war in Iraq. And there is not enough room for 145 million Americans to join the military.
So, demanding that all Americans who support President Bush and a harsh stance against Muslim terrorism join the military is, frankly, an idiotic statement.
Roughly 1% of those who support the liberation of Iraq are members of the US military. And the other 99% isn't.
I am one of that 99%, and I will not censor myself because a handful of Leftists demand that I serve before I am allowed to speak.
And I find it interesting that the anti-war Left would rather verbally attack their own countrymen than denounce the terrorists...
83 - gonzo marx
as for comment #81...from what you wrote here, RJ..i woudl guess that you saw the awful movie, but did not read the book, i could be wrong..but if so, we have gotten two very different impressions from the written word...your take on the society depicted describes the film, not the novel
if you actually understood the bit you quoted from me, you would have noticed i said "serve" and went on to also say "not just in the military"...what was required was a period of Service to the Nation, via a job working for the government...whatever job you were suited for...this Society was based on the idea that all had Rights, but the Priveledge of exercising your franchise (voting) or holding public Office needed to be earned...R.A.H. had applied the idea of "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch" to the sociological model he was creating ...with the Theory that if it needed to be earned, it would be appreciated more rather than being taken for granted
think about that next time you look at the numbers for voter turn out...might i suggest you read the book itself...you may enjoy it, and i would bet it makes you think a bit
as for comment #82...you seem to be exempt due to asthma...fair enough...
on this entire area of discussion, you started with some points against you by making the statement about a "giant thalidomide baby" pertaining to a triple amputee war veteran...
so, pardon me if i don't give an aerial fornication bisecting a rotating pasty about anything you "seriously considered"....K?
i would also gather than your statement about "attacking" , "anti-war Left" and others is not directed at me..since my own points on this matter have been set out in various places quite cclearly...
but, you have my thanks for helping me gain clarity on something...
it seems i am just wasting my time
Excelsior!
84 - Dave Nalle
Good stuff, RJ. Well said.
>>I am one of that 99%, and I will not censor myself because a handful of Leftists demand that I serve before I am allowed to speak.<<
And the irony is that the leftists who think military service is mandatory in order to hold an opinion, would just as soon there was no military and that nobody served. How does that work again, exactly?
Dave
85 - andy marsh
"aerial fornication bisecting a rotating pastry" now that's funny...I don't care who you are!
for what it's worth...I never served my country because I felt there was something I needed to earn...I was born here...my family fought here in the NJ Militia in the Revolutionary War...
it sounds corny..but I was fortunate enough to meet a Czech defector when I was a kid...and listening to him talk about what a great country this is....just made me feel like that's what I wanted to do...I also bought into those commercials...you know...join the navy...see the world...I saw it...and found out even more how much I love the place I was born!
that's the deal too...this is America...if you live here...as a LEGAL citizen...you get to have your cake and eat it too...and the one percent of half the people that support the war that RJ was talking about will continue to defend your right to it all!
86 - RJ
"i said "serve" and went on to also say "not just in the military"...what was required was a period of Service to the Nation, via a job working for the government..."
Well, that's a relief, since I will probably be a federal law enforcement officer in a few years...does that count as "service" in your world, GM?
87 - V Krishna
Pacifism is often a cover for
cowards or fools. Non violence does
not mean non violence from your enemy,
just as violence will not necessarily
lead to an endless cycle of violence
(otherwise in the UK were democracy was born from war would still be in a
state of civil war).
It should be noted that Gandhi only
took on the British (a relatively
civillised people) he never faced a
jihadi mob or went to Stalingrad to
halt the violence.
Gandhi is indeed a false prophet,
I do not wish to be unkind but this
is the truth.
The following practical steps will
reduce the chance of another suicide
attack (1) monitor mosques and deport/incarserate any imman that preaches (1) suicide bombings (2) jihad
against the non-believer. New immigrants should be questions as to
their belief on jihad, if they beleive
a suicide bomber goes to heaven to have
sez with many virgins, then there is
legal recource to not allow the person.
The time to wobble is not now.
We must conduct the war by minimising
civillian casualties. We must help
Iraqi to fight terrorist so that they
can control their own destiny.
This is what offends the terrorists
so much, they know that ultimately
they (the terrorist) will rejected by
their own people (the muslims) who
prefer sane government.
88 - Natalie Davis
Well, with all due respect, what you call the truth is merely your opinion, one to which you are certainly entitled.
89 - SFC Ski
MCH, I did read some of the post on the board you cited, and though I found them to be heartfelt, all I can say is that I don't agree with the sentiments.
As for RJ's comment re Max Cleland, it was flat-out wrong.
90 - SFC Ski
There are reports that the attacks were the results of human bombs; this is even more disturbing.
91 - MCH
Sarge -
I appreciate the discourse, we're going to have to agree to disagree. My problem is, I am diametrically opposed to "words without action." To me, the bellicose macho war-speak of people like Nalle and Bobby (RJ) Elliott will never be more than empty, meaningless rhetoric.
I am in agreement with Natalie Davis in comment #61; "...it makes sense on some level to question how or why a person could ask someone to do something he or she would not do themselves..."
And thanks for your service.
- MCH, USN '70-74
92 - RJ
I have already apologized for my campaign-mode attacks on Max Cleland. He served his nation honorably, and my comments were crude and tasteless.
93 - Punchinello
oh yeah RJ, so that makes it ok? just like some cowardly elephant, scream and yell and make shit up, do whatever it takes, no matter how wrong, no matter how immoral. then you just apologize later for anythign you are stone cold busted for, and it makes everything ok
you will make a great cop, you going DEA? your moral compass and sheer compassion makes you perfect for snitch work.
94 - MCH
Re comment #82;
"...and now I'm relatively old and still have shitty eye-sight, and now I can't run a mile without needing a Primatene Mist inhaler."
- Bobby (R.J.) Elliott
Look, Bobby, first of all, I'm not buying your excuses for not attempting to serve in the invasion you so adamantly promote. In other words, I think you're faking it.
25 years of age is hardly "relatively old," considering there have been at least 75 U.S. soldiers of 40 years or older killed in Iraq to date.
Just the fact that you have NOT EVEN TRIED to enlist tells me that your lack of character is a must bigger issue than any minor physical "problems" you alledge.
And your so-called near sightedness and asthma remind me of the now infamous "pimple on his ass" deferment that Rush Limbagh used to dodge the draft during the Vietnam War...
95 - Dave Nalle
MCH, do you have any other thoughts in your head? Do you have anything productive to add to any discussion?
Dave
96 - Ray Ramos
Throw the animals in the water and let all the sharkmen in the world take a bite out of terrorism.Ive just about had enough of this pacifist bbullshit that i can stand.