If you are feeling vengeful over the London attacks, think. More violence will not improve a dire situation.
The world, for the most part, is in mourning for the horrific attacks that took place in London this morning. In case you were sleeping, England's biggest city was rocked by a series of bombings on the mass-transit system that took at least 37 lives and injured upwards of 700 people. An al-Qaeda group is claiming responsibility for the suicide bombings on three Underground stations and one doubledecker bus.…
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— go to most recent comments26 - Natalie Davis
Mr. Marsh, it's a frightening world, in my estimation, one filled with people choosing the easy, mainstream-approved thing -- conforming with the dictates of societies that glorify violence and honor killers -- and calling it "brave."
To your point, if a person happens to be a nationalist, he or she needs not subscribe to or support the ways of violence to serve their country. There are pacifists who consider themselves at least as patriotic as you. People have differing principles and priorities, to which they are all entitled.
I very much appreciate your attempts to be respectful.
27 - gonzo marx
perhpas part of it is due to calling folks "pinko" that disagree with you?
perhaps it's due in part to some veterans not appreciating people talking the talk without being willing to walk to walk?
perhaps it's due to the possibility that to be taken seriously as a "hawk" you should place your own testicles in Harm's Way before you espouse other's to risk their own on (just speaking of Irawq now, NOT Afghanistan, where i think ALL our efforts shoudl be) "pre-emptive" actions which have just been proven to not accomplish half of what was claimed (ie: to keep the terrorists "over there" and not bombing civilians in home countries)
and perhaps it's just to get your blood pressure up, or to think a bit about the consequences and Responsibilities
as for "Starship Troopers"...in the Book...one of the postulates is that you had to Serve..somehow, not just the military, before you could be a Citizen, vote, or hold elected office
would that that was the Law of our Land
Excelsior!
28 - andy marsh
makes me feel old when someone calls me Mr. Marsh...
Ms. Davis, I believe there are millions of people in this country that don't support violence and are still patriotic Americans...you do it your way, I'll do it mine...
you can call me Andy...
29 - Lisa McKay
Thanks for acknowledging that, Andy. Thoughts like that tend to get lost in the rhetoric at times like these, on both sides. It seems that we are all talking at cross-purposes when we most ought to be united.
30 - HW Saxton
Hey RJ and Andy, Y'all want a real good laugh today??? Go and click on the link that is posted in Comment #14.Oh, Gee-zus kee-rist almighty!!! That should stop 'em for sure.LOF'inL Unreal. Since they are attacking us everywhere else in the world besides the Mid-East, Part 2 of that answer in particular just makes no friggin' sense at all. I am open to all non-violent solutions don't get me wrong.Even if it would save only one human life. American,Iraqi or Martian it makes no difference to me. But that is most definitely not the answer. Especially in view of the fact that these cretins have taken their "Jihad" to the world at large. They were attacking us long before we EVER set foot in Iraq.Attacking us at home,in Africa,Europe,Asia as well as in North Africa and the Mid-East. Well,that just about beats all. Why do I even bother to try and see any other point besides the only one these murdering bastards will listen to? And just for the record I despise Bush with a passion.
31 - theco
Grow up, get a clue, and face the facts.
You can choose to fight this evil. Or you can lay down and die. There are no other choices.
32 - Natalie Davis
I do not believe that but accept that that is what you believe.
33 - RJ
WAR DOESN"T SOLVE ANYTHING!
(Except slavery, Nazism, Fascism, Communism, Totalitarianism, and Terrorism...)
34 - andy marsh
that would make a good t-shirt!
35 - HW Saxton
RJ, Nazi-ism and Fascism are basically the same thing aren't they?
36 - gonzo marx
no HW, they are not...for various reasons
Excelsior!
37 - MDE
Hey violent guys - while the bile is still in your throats, perhaps you will be able to empathies with the (thousands of) Iraqis who lost loved ones in the terror attack that was 'Shock and Awe'.
Violence begets violence.
Good post, Natalie Davis.
Mark
38 - MDE
'empathize' that is
Mark
39 - Victor Plenty
Nazism and Fascism are basically the same thing, two different names for systems of government and national economic management that share the same underlying political philosophy.
In recent years there has been a revisionist movement to create artificial distinctions between the two, but their arguments do not hold water and I suspect the motives behind this movement serve ideology more than truth.
40 - gonzo marx
all Nazi's were fascists, but not all fascists are/were Nazi's
the two are NOT the same
Excelsior!
41 - Victor Plenty
Some wore black shirts, some brown. Totally different!
42 - RJ
Spanish and Italian (and VICHY!)fascists were not as evil as the NAZIs.
So. Fascism comes in many varieties. And many were eliminated thanks to WAR...
43 - RJ
Not too many Italians or Spanish were hauling off Jews to the death camps...
Facsism always sucks...but it comes in different forms...
44 - gonzo marx
/sigh...
so, Victor, how many Spanish or Italians tossed jews into the "showers" and subjected them to zyklon-b?
there are other differences...but i think that sums it up decently
what the Nazi's were went far beyond mere fascism, bad as that alone is/was...and rose to an entirely new level
that's the difference i was talking about
but hey, thanks for the pithy "black/brown" comment..it shows a certain depth of Thought and understanding of History
Excelsior!
45 - MDE
And some wear Armani.
46 - MDE
I maintain that the Italian Fascists lost the war but won the peace. Made room for some softer faces of fascism - up to and including 'compassionate conservatism'.
Fascism is in essence government controlled corporatism which is our present system. It should come off of RJ's list.
But back to the subject of the post, I'm relieved to hear that the world has been saved from "slavery, Nazism, Fascism, Communism, Totalitarianism, and Terrorism...". Since we've rid ourselves of these through war, we should be able to lead peaceful lives. Hurrah for War.
Mark
47 - Victor Plenty
Many Jews from Italy and from both occupied and Vichy France were hauled away to die under the tender ministrations of the concentration camps. If Spain did not add many to this exodus, it's most likely because they had already expelled the vast majority of the Jewish population from Spain several centuries earlier.
The fact is, nothing in the Spanish or the Italian variants of Fascism was particularly opposed to the genocide carried out by the German Fascists. Their political philosophers would all agree the totalitarian State is within its rights to exterminate any part of its population thought of as a threat to the whole.
Spanish and Italian Fascists have little claim to moral superiority over their German equivalents, merely because they put less energy into the campaign against the Jews. Maybe if they had actively opposed Hitler's "Final Solution" it might be plausible to consider them significantly different from the Nazis. But they didn't, so I won't.
48 - gonzo marx
never said "superior", just stated they were not equivalent
Excelsior!
49 - Victor Plenty
"Superior" is implied in any effort to extricate the Fascists of Italy, Spain, or anywhere else from their philosophical allies in Germany.
For good or ill, the modern world uses the Nazis as a shorthand for the ultimate evil, in terms of politics.
This means claiming the other Fascists are "not equivalent" has the same function as claiming they are morally more acceptable. Whether you intend this as your goal or not, it is the inevitable and unavoidable result from your line of reasoning.
50 - RJ
Riiight...
Fascism = pro-corporation
So...
The Italy and Spain and Germany and Vichy of the early 1940s was all equivalent with...the present-day USA!
And it's all true! And if you disagree, you're a Facsist too!
And Bush is Hitler!
It's all so simple now!
51 - H.W. Saxton
Yow!!! Didn't know I was opening up a can of worms here. I've just always equated Nazis first and foremost with Fascism and Nationalism. So wrongly, I have always sort of thought of them as one and the same. I know there are huge differences between the fascism of Franco and Mussolini and that of Hitler.I wasn't really taking into consideration the Nazis insane mythology of the Fire & Ice, Aryan Super Beings,etc when I made my statement earlier.
52 - Victor Plenty
RJ, I never compared the United States to Fascist governments, I never compared Bush to Hitler, and I never claimed anyone in this discussion was personally a Fascist.
Maybe you've talked to other people who habitually make such comparisons. I am not one of them. If you wish to be taken seriously, respond to things I have actually said, and not to things you only imagine seeing me say.
53 - gonzo marx
neither unavoidable nor inevitable..anytime one confuses two things that are NOT euqal to each other as the same thing it portray sloppy thinking and shows no understanding of the definition of the terms involved...
example
fascism = A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
nazism = The ideology and practice of the Nazis, especially the policy of racist nationalism, national expansion, and state control of the economy.
now, while the two definately are similar, they are not the same
as i stated, all Nazis were fascists, but not all fascists are Nazis
simple enough?
Excelsior!
54 - Dave Nalle
>>Why is it that nearly every time I write to support harsh action against murderous terrorists, I am met with, not a logical response, but a DEMAND that I either sign up or shut up?<<
This happens because certain people have a very limited worldview and don't like to see it challenged. When you say something that threatens them they bring out the demand that you either join the military or shut up as a way to make you stop talking about things which they aren't prepared to deal with intelligently.
Dave
55 - Victor Plenty
Stating the same ideas in a different order does not make two different ideologies, Gonzo.
56 - MDE
RJ - there is more to fascism than the bogyman emotion that you appeal to. It's, like a whole economic and political theory and all developed around the turn of the twentieth century.
And no - Bush is Bush; Hitler was Hitler.
Mark
57 - gonzo marx
again with the broad brush, Mr Nalle?
how, again ,is my own worldview "limited"??
since i am one of those that made the statement to RJ...let me assure you, that i am in no way "threatened" nor "limited" by his viewpoint
i made that statement, in order for him to hopefully re-examine some of his rhetoric, if nothing else
if each and every person screaming for "war" in many circumstances, had to go and serve in said war, can you honestly say that we would have so many?
that being said..i again state that we need to complete the Task in Afghanistan(which i have always been for, more so than this Administration), and that since we "broke" Iraq, we need to deal with it...
i also stand with my position that Iraq was a mistake to go into when we did, a criminal disaster to go in unprepared as we did...and will cost more "blood and treasure" than anticipated...
i also now postulate that in one of it's goals, to keep the terrorists there, it has failed abysmally
today's bombings in London prove that while we squander resources in Iraq, al Qaeda and other terrorists can go about their horrible way, killing innocents anywhere they choose
my point in the statement to RJ was to get him to think for a moment...if he truly feels the way he does so deeply, why not sign up and add his own effort towards the goal?
i have no patience with those that yell loudly, but won't back it up with their own personal Responsibility, by their actions
we will cite WW2 for example...if you believed the germans and japanese were evil and a threat to the country, what did any and almost every, healthy man do (and even many that were NOT healthy, or were too old , etc..)
i'll tell you, they at least TRIED to sign up, and were rejected, then went on to help in any way they could
but you can be satisfied with less today?
i ask both of you, how?
Excelsior!
58 - Dave Nalle
It saddens me to see you making the 'chickenhawk' argument, Gonzo. I thought you were better than that.
Dave
59 - gonzo marx
Mr Nalle, i think you misunderstand...
on one hand, i do want people to stand up for what they believe in, war is very serious..but not the only example
on the other, i was very clear in that if one is going to call some folks "pinkos" for disagreeing, then they should be damn ready to go out and fight for what they beleive in, otherwise , they are hypocritical, or cowards
as to your view or me, Mr Nalle...i could give a rat's ass...i HAVE stood up for what i believe in, and continue to do so, in every way
i also have the scar tissue to show for it, much of it, after i left the Service
standing up for those under my care or protection
i carry the courage and resolve of my convictions, and shall do so until my Ending...this encourages me to Respect those that hold fast to their own convictions, whether i believe in them or not
it also generates nothing but contempt for those not willing to do the same
so spare me the "chickenhawk" bullshit, Mr Nalle..if there is nothing you find worth fighting, or dying, for...then more's the Pity
i would have hoped you could understand that
apparently not
Excelsior!
60 - Dave Nalle
Of course I find things worth fighting and dying for, and if I could think of a way that I might actually be useful to the military at my age and with my skills I'd volunteer. When I was younger and more viable for military service there was no compelling reason to serve, and though there is reason now, all indications are that the military is better off without me and I can do more good serving here in different ways than I could do in Iraq or anywhere else.
If it does come to the point where need becomes great enough then I'd be out there fighting, but if it ever comes to me needing to fight it's more likely to be against our own government than against a foreign enemy, and that's still a fairly remote possibility.
In the more general sense I'm all for people standing up for what they believe in, but I don't think there are special qualifications which have to be met before you can hold an opinion and stand up for it.
Dave
61 - Natalie Davis
I would agree with that last graf in principle, but still, it makes sense on some level to question how or why a person could ask someone to do something he or she would not or does not do (unless the reason for refusal or nonparticipation was legitimate, naturally).
62 - Dave Nalle
It's because we're a society, not a bunch of random individuals. In a society everyone serves in different ways, and the military is made up of people who choose to develop those skills and do that work. When the military is called on to serve the society, they are sent to do that work, not the reporters or the bloggers or the graphic artists.
Everyone has an opinion, but everyone also has a job. Opinions can range widely. Actual jobs are usually much more strictly defined.
Dave
63 - Natalie Davis
As I don't see myself as a part of the society, that doesn't wash with me on some levels. But as said previously, I can certainly see and agree with why the chickenhawk approach isn't a nice one.
64 - gonzo marx
and i understand the resons you are not in this , Mr Nalle...
note, my statement was nto directed at you, but towards RJ...who does fit into those that are eligible to serve
i will defend the Right of every american to hold their own opinion, and speak it as they like
i also reserve the Right for myself as well...and to me, those that show a thirst for blood, but not the guts to spill it or risk their own, deserve a special seat in Hell
my entire Point was to show Respect for other's Opinions...and that if smoeone was going to call another a "pinko" for their View, i would return the Favor in kind
cuz i tend to defend those that can't do so for themselves...
silly of me, i know
Excelsior!
65 - Dave Nalle
Hmmm. Should healthy young RJ sign up for the military? It's a good question.
I think he would earn a lot of respect if he did. At the same time it's still a volunteer military, and that means he isn't under any obligation to volunteer and doesn't get any blame for not serving. It's his choice and there are many reasons for not wanting to serve, including not wanting to get shot at or knowing you don't have the nerve to stand up under fire or that you just don't like taking orders. Some people just don't have the temperament or personality to be in the military.
Whatever the reason, if RJ doesn't choose to serve, he shouldn't be blamed for it. Frankly, even if his reasons are that he's got better job prospects, that's okay. It doesn't cost him his citizenship or his right to have an opinion.
But we'd still love him just a little bit more if he did volunteer.
Dave
66 - Natalie Davis
Opinions can range widely.
67 - gonzo marx
decent points , Mr Nalle..
and mine is that if you are going to shout for War..you should be prepared to pick up the Sword
if he doesn't, i won't lose any Respect for him...it IS his Choice in a Free Society
and as i have always said..we are Defined by our Choices
Excelsior!
68 - carmine
Kubayah, Oiy Gevalt
69 - H.W. Saxton
Dave,Since you mentioned "Citizenship.I'd be all for granting Green Cards to all those, male and female,in the country illegally if they were to: A)Join a branch of the U.S Military B)Serve Honorably and C)Complete their full term of service up to and including their reserve duty.After doing this they would receive full citizenship .
They would get out as legal citizens, be eligible for a G.I loan on a house, be eligible for a Govt. job (or they could stay in the military) and be eligible for loans,grants and other financial assistance to go to college on.Not to mention of course, the ranks of the various branches of the services would swell and grow with new recruits. This would benefit everyone all the way around. It would also be a good way to seperate the wheat from the chaff so to speak. Those who really want to be citizens and insure a decent life for themselves and their families would be able to do so and it would separate them from those that just want to live off the fat of the land and make a bankroll to go back to Mexico,Central America,Haiti or wherever and retire. So when the INS starts doing sweeps of illegals they'd have legit cause to let some stay that really deseve and want to. It's an idea,fraught with problems and not perfect by any means but I don't think it's the worst idea in the world either.
70 - Dave Nalle
Don't we already do that, HW?
Dave
71 - MCH
"Whatever the reason, if RJ doesn't choose to serve, he shouldn't be blamed for it. Frankly, even if his reasons are that he's got better job prospects, that's OK. It doesn't cost him his citizenship or his right to have an opinion."
- Dave Nalle
Chickenhawks of a feather, stick together...
72 - andy marsh
guess that means I can spout all the war rhetoric I want!!! Nuke 'em all let my God sort 'em out!!!
73 - SFC Ski
MCH, does the chickenhawk meme mean only those who have served can have a pro-war opinion? If so, what makes the opinions of those who haven't served speaking against the war any more valid?
74 - SFC Ski
In addition, Donald Sensing puts in a much better position paper on chikenhawks, Submitted for your approval.
75 - H.W. Saxton
Dave N.,I've nevr heard of any programs like that.Where did you?