The world, for the most part, is in mourning for the horrific attacks that took place in London this morning. In case you were sleeping, England's biggest city was rocked by a series of bombings on the mass-transit system that took at least 37 lives and injured upwards of 700 people. An al-Qaeda group is claiming responsibility for the suicide bombings on three Underground stations and one doubledecker bus.
Tooling around the 'Net, I have seen the usual sad commentary from reputedly decent people: Let's strike back with impunity and viciousness. Let's get revenge for Britain's 9/11. And to hell with "political correctness," let's round up Muslims, shut down their businesses and mosques, and ship 'em back to their caves.
Oh my god, just deport Muslims? React viciously?
As the song goes, WHEN WILL THEY EVER LEARN????
Violence begets violence. Hatred begets hatred. Al-Qaeda hit London, the West will hit back, al-Qaeda will strike again, the West will react with retaliation again, lather, rinse, repeat... And Western people and al-Qaeda will hate even more, creating more terrorists from both sides. It's pathological!
For the record, Muslims died today too. One of the bombs went off in the Edgeware Road Underground station — which is in a predominantly Arab neighborhood. And Muslims — OF COURSE! — are condemning this condemnation-worthy outrage.
From the BBC.
From the Financial Times.
From Christianity Today.
This June article from FrontPage Magazine.com addresses the general issue of Muslims and their condemnation of Islamicist terror.
And there is other tragic news today too: Kidnapped Egyptian envoy to Iraq, Ihab al-Sharif, is believed to be dead; a group of al-Qaeda leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi claims responsibility for the reported killing.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Matt
Nonviolence does not, alas, provoke nonviolence. Our failure to react through the 1990's led only to more violence.
But our reaction should not be war, should not be taking out "leaders", it should involve placing time bombs or sending suicide bombers to the next gathering around the Qaaba, it should involve demolition of the Dome of the Rock. It should strike at the very heart of Islam.
2 - Natalie Davis
Your response moves me to tears.
Nonviolence is indeed a reaction. It does indeed plant seeds of peace. Trust me, Mr. Matt, if you take on the tactics of terrorists, you become one. And while seeds of peace may take time to bear fruit, your way -- which obviously does not work -- usually has immediate and long-lasting ramifications, all negative. And what of Islamics who are not terrorists. What is their fate, to be your collateral damage?
3 - Victor Plenty
One needn't advocate pacifism to see Matt's idiocy. If we feel the need for violent justice, we must make sure to strike only those who deserve retaliation.
If we take care to minimize the loss of innocent life, we can show we continue to be different from the terrorists, even as we strike to remove their cancer from the body of humanity. So long as we do this, there will be people who sympathize with us from every cultural and religious background on Earth.
But if we "strike at the very heart of Islam," destroying sacred places and killing people who had nothing to do with any terrorist attack, we would do far more than enter into a horrific moral corruption by doing so.
By any such act we would make ourselves the enemy of civilization.
We would then have absolutely no friends anywhere in the Islamic world.
Where we now have hundreds of millions of friends who believe us when we say we stand up to defend peace and justice for all human beings, we would have over one billion determined enemies, enemies who would bend all their efforts to our destruction.
What Matt has called for is not only evil and immoral. It is also damnably stupid and insane. Hopefully he will recover his senses and forcefully retract his idiotic call for attacks against the holy places of Islam.
4 - Dave Nalle
This attack does at least highlight that it's not Moslems who are the problem, but those specific extremists who are perfectly willing to kill their co-religionists to make their bloody, violent points.
A non-pacific response is entirely appropriate, but it should take the form of finding and punishing those responsible, not arbitrary reprisals or mass roundups or anything extreme like that.
Dave
5 - gracefulboomer
What is 'non-pacific' I am not familiar with the term?
6 - Dave Nalle
non-pacific means 'not peaceful' or warlike.
Dave
7 - gonzo marx
my wife was in London this morning, coming back from Italy...
i just got word that her flight was sent to Ireland, and that she is safe, no news yet on when she will be heading to JFK, all seems to be frozen over there, still...
i've been keeping quiet on all this, since the absolute horror of it all precludes even the faintest glimmer of a bright side
but i do want to lay one Thought out here...
so much for the Iraq conflict keeping the terrorists away from other acts of Horror because they are fighting there
this whole insane Obscenity that London faced today just shows that nothing can "contain" terrorists to any single place, and the folly of thinking so leaves gaping holes in dealing with the real Foe...
fuck these bastards, al Qaeda, bin Laden, all those involved need to be priority #1...and let us not forget Mullah Omar, th espiritual leader fo al Qaeda...
why is he important?..because he is in possesion of a Relic believed by the Muslim world to be the "cloak of Muhammed"...after 9/11 there was footage of him waving it around, inciting Taliban soldiers...
why is that Important?...it is a muslim belief that no army can be defeated when in possesion of the Cloak...similar to european christians believing that they could not be stopped if they had the "spear of Longinus" in their possesion
when dealing with mystical fanatics, it is good to know their Symbolism, and use it against them...sadly, those that are Fighting the terrorists don't seem to understand this, or are unable to do so
another heartbreak for me was the SEALs lost this past week in Afghanistan...i KNOW the Teams will now be ramping their efforts up a notch
and i feel no sympathy for the remnants of the Taliban...the children of Sharkman are coming for you bastards...rest in dirt, i hope they fill your mouths with pork rinds before you die
Excelsior!
8 - Natalie Davis
Children of Sharkman?
By the way, violence can come fr om the mind and voice too. All of it is wounding to the soul of the universe itself.
I din't think I could become more depressed. Wrong.
9 - HW Saxton
Natalie I largely agree with your post.Violence does beget violence etc is a well known fact. But are you actually advocating reaching out in peace to fucking terrorists??? At least this is how your post reads to me by the statement:"Today is a day to reach out in love to everyone..." Surely you are not suggesting that we deal with Islamists by reaching out in love to THEM? Other than that I agree with the sentiment expressed here. Violence is useless and mass round ups of those of Middle Eastern descent is pure lunacy.
But obviously a little love and understanding is not going to deter a group of people who are set on world domination. A group of people who if they had their way would give you a clitoral circumcision,dress you from head to toe,not let you leave the house unless escorted by a male relative,would deny you education and reserve the right to beat you should the mood strike them AND get away with it since YOU are THEIR property??? You are not really advocating trying to deal peacefully with these types of people are you? That isn't pacifism that is masochism.
Yes of course, a peaceful solution WOULD be preferrable to a violent one but do you see one? If so how would you propose we go about implementing it? I'm not being snotty, I just really want to know what choice we have and how we can break the cycle of violence THEY are perpetuating on anyone and everyone who does not agree with their wholly flintstone-esque views of the modern world.
10 - gonzo marx
Ms Davis...
the "children of Sharkman" would be SEAL team Six..the anti-terrorist squad founded by Dick "sharkman" Marchinko
and where i can appreciate and applaud the Philosophy of Ghandi, anbd know what it can achieve in the broader, macro-political , sense...i do know what it cannot stop
it cannot stop murderous scum that would attack civilians, women, children , with cowardly attacks like bombs on a subway
there are only 2 ways to deal with those that have committed such atrocities, lock the animals away...or kill them
while that is being accomplished, one woudl hope that peaceful ways to persuade the upcoming generations indoctrinated by wahabi'ist schools to look inside their Faith, and embrace Peace so this senseless killing can end
both Paths need to be pursued to their fullest, i cannot see anything less being successful
Excelsior!
11 - Natalie Davis
I hate to get all religious, Mr. Saxton, but Jesus on the cross asked the creator to forgive those who crucified him. Some of us believe the radical Islamists aren't the only terrorists here. Yes, I believe we have to love everyone, without exception. That doesn't mean not meting out justice or throwing them parties, of course. But engaging anyone in violence is a sin, regardless of the motivation behind it.
Mr.Marx, thanks for the explanation. I can agree with imprisoning the terrorrists (on all sides) for their crimes against humankind, not with killing, never with killing. When society-sanctioned killing occurs, whatever the supposed justification for it, the younger generations learn that killing is OK. That is anathema to me.
12 - gonzo marx
Ms Davis,
i am nothign more than an imperfect animal on this earth..and where i may aspire to the highest Ethic i can conceive, i also know i fall far short of my goal, the striving is the only realistic goal i may hope to achieve...
that being said, i can agree that it is improper to kill humans
i just categorize individuals that can bomb civilians and children as less than human
i would shoot a rabid dog to protect my community, exterminating scum like these , to me, falls into the same category
i know you will not agree with me on this, but i hope it helps you to understand ...
Excelsior!
13 - Natalie Davis
That's true for me too. 'Twas also true for Gandhi. Read him -- it might help you to understand.
14 - Natalie Davis
Great link I found. This is an excellent, if brief, thought on the nonviolent approach to terrorism from someone reluctant to label himself as pacifist.
15 - gonzo marx
Ms Davis, i read Ghandi almost 30 years ago, as well as Sun Tzu, the Vedas, old and new Testaments and a horde of other philosophical texts
i am also ex-military,as well as a former practitioner/teacher of various martial arts
understanding is not my problem here, due to my knowledge of History, including the region and peoples in Question here, i just cannot see any other way to deal with those who would bomb and kill civilians by destroying subways
might i suggest you read
Sun Tzu's "the Art of Way" wherein he states that the best way to win any conflict is to have your foe surrender before the fighting starts
Excelsior!
16 - RJ
"Violence begets violence. Hatred begets hatred."
How did WWII turn out in your world, ND?
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"And Western people and al-Qaeda will hate even more, creating more terrorists from both sides."
The West doesn't really have any murderous global terrorists, ND.
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"Your response moves me to tears."
So, words rattle you, but bombs and carnage do not?
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"and let us not forget Mullah Omar, th espiritual leader fo al Qaeda..."
Actually, he's the spiritual leader of the Taliban, whereas Osama bin Laden is the spiritual leader of AQ...
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"and i feel no sympathy for the remnants of the Taliban...the children of Sharkman are coming for you bastards...rest in dirt, i hope they fill your mouths with pork rinds before you die"
Amen, brother...
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"violence can come fr om the mind and voice too. All of it is wounding to the soul of the universe itself."
Oh, go smoke another bowl, pinko...
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"I can agree with imprisoning the terrorrists (on all sides) for their crimes against humankind"
On all sides???
You want to throw US Marines and Soldiers in prison?
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Sun Tzu's "the Art of Way"
That's "The Art Of WAR" which I'm almost certain ND is unfamiliar with...
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Here's a little lesson for pacifists like ND:
If they had their way, these monsters would gang-rape you and your female relatives, kill all your male relatives, and make you convert.
If you refused to convert, you would be beheaded.
If you converted, you would face oppression you cannot imagine. You would be wife number 7 of some brutal killer, and if you ever defied him he would beat you within an inch of your life. No more blogging for you. No more driving your car. No more nothing, except submission.
And I don;t think they would appreciate your thoughts on gay marriage much, either...
But, hey! Let's give them all big hugs anyway!
GEE-ZUZ...
17 - RJ
"and let us not forget Mullah Omar, th espiritual leader fo al Qaeda..."
Actually, he's the spiritual leader of the Taliban, whereas Osama bin Laden is the spiritual leader of AQ...
18 - gonzo marx
ye sit is the Art of War, RJ
forgive this olde dyslexic, eh?
might i advise ya lay off the "pinko" epithets..
it does your Cause no good, keep it sane, keep it clean, and stay away from Insults
just my 2 guilders worth
Excelsior!
19 - MCH
Wow, R.J. (Bobby) Elliott sounds like he's really pissed this time. Maybe he's finally angry enough to actually take some action and ENLIST, instead of just typing macho war-words on his keyboard...but I doubt it.
20 - HW Saxton
Ms Davis, I appreciate that you are a pacifist and believe that all should be forgiven. That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. But, my question to you was "What should we do to the terrorists" if not fight fire with fire so to speak? You don't believe in violence so what do you propose be done to stop the indiscriminate slaughter these vile scumbags are perpetuating on a daily basis? Again, I'm not trying to get a rise out of you. I only would like to hear what we could/should do to stop these madmen. I have my own ideas and would honestly like to hear sensible ways to deal with violent shit heads like these in a nonviolent way. If this is even possible and I do NOT believe that it is,personally speaking. But I am open minded and hopeful enough to accept a good solution which does Not I repeat NOT involve violent measures.
21 - andy marsh
RJ - You are my hero! I read through those comments and lost it! and RJ, you can fight the good war right here...you're doing fine!
22 - gonzo marx
bah..i appreciate RJ's words on some matters..but if he wants to talk macho i hafta agree with another Commenter here
sign up
otherwise it's just rhetoric
now, if you are medically disqualified, that's another story...but to any "hawk" types...sign up, or shut the fuck up when it comes to being rude to those who feel other than you do
have the same Respect for their View as you want them to have for yours
i've stated mine clearly, and yes..i served my time , i am medically disqualified or i would be in Afghanistan right now (NOT Iraq)..despite my being 43 years old
so before spewing vitriol..stop a moment, and think...show the Respect you want for yourself....fine to disagree, never fine to disRespect
your mileage may vary
Excelsior!
23 - Natalie Davis
Mr. Saxton, please check the link I posted above, which excellently summarizes the principal points better than I could on this horrid day.
Mr. Marx, I assume you mean The Art of War. Read it in high school (nearly 30 years ago as well).
24 - andy marsh
I don't think you have to enlist to serve your country...and I can most definately say that because I served...20 years...neither Iraq nor Afghanistan have submarines...they got no use for me...I checked...
I think I agree with gonzo...Afghanistan is the smart fight right now...
but I also agree with everything I read in RJ's comments...I have daughters...I've heard and read what they do to their women in many muslim countries...maybe not the pinko...but I have typed in haste on here before and used words I probably shouldn't have...it's a brave new world out there...
25 - RJ
Why is it that nearly every time I write to support harsh action against murderous terrorists, I am met with, not a logical response, but a DEMAND that I either sign up or shut up?
This ain't STARSHIP TROOPERS, people..