As the dollar sinks is the greenback government striking back against hard-money entrepreneurism?
Early Thursday morning federal agents from the Secret Service and FBI raided the Evansville, Indiana offices of NORFED, makers of the Liberty Dollar and other alternative 'barter' currencies of which they claim to have $20 million dollars in circulation. The business, owned by Bernard von Nothaus, mints copper, gold, silver and platinum coinage and produces paper certificates with fixed values based on their reserve of gold and silver.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments176 - Dave Nalle
Chris, I continue to be amused by the FACT that you think I'm supposed to be embarrassed at not being able to spell affidavit off the top of my head. Frankly, I've never been a great speller and it bothers me not one whit.
As for relative head sizes, I guess it's all a matter of what body parts one uses. We'll change your monicker to MICROCEPH at your request and leave it at that.
Dave
177 - Christopher Rose
Dave, in that case you are amused by a thought that never occurred to me. As throughout this tawdry exchange, you have yet again made something up. However, I think it does bother you rather more than you are letting on. I was just slightly surprised and teased you - and you've been acting like a complete humourless plonker ever since. Get over yourself, mate.
178 - Dave Nalle
Christopher, I'm perfectly happy amusing myself and watching your display of egomaniacal excess. Carry on.
Dave
179 - Dr Dreadful
Chris! Come here, please...
Smack
Dave! Come here, please...
Smack
Now both of you go to your rooms, and don't come out until I tell you to!!!
180 - Christopher Rose
Dave Nalle accusing ANYBODY of egomaniacal excess is like Moonraven accusing ANYBODY of making personal attacks, it's just too funny for words.
Oh, and Dave, you made another spelling mistake in #178, you typed amusing when you clearly meant abusing.
Sorry, Doc, what did you say?
181 - Lumpy
Reading christopher's comments is just a little surreal. Even moreso than all the soccer comments. Reminds me of a magic 8-ball but more verbose.
182 - STM
CR: "Who do you reckon will be the new manager?"
In the absence of any genuine English contenders, the FA should ring up the RFU and ask if they can borrow Sir Clive (OK, I know he doesn't work there any more, but still ...)
He's the only English coach to lift a world championship in 40 years. He's not a great tactician, as England's 2003 Rugby World Cup squad will attest, but he's a very good planner and motivator.
How could it get any worse? He was also a very handy soccer player (and attracted the attention of some old Division 1 clubs as a boy) before turning his hand to top-level rugby (and being snubbed by the dopey Welsh Schoolboys rugby selectors because he was born in England).
183 - Clavos
Grumble...
184 - STM
Grumble?
That's not what the pommies say Clav.
"Musn't grumble" is one of their favourite sayings!
Even so, they do - incessantly.
The poor buggers.
185 - RJ
"RJ, re your #160: As one of THE most heavily subjective people on this site"
Well, that's certainly subjective...
;-)
186 - RJ
"that you would always debate the facts without attacking the commenter personally."
Oh, the irony...
187 - RJ
"And re your #161: If you genuinely believe I have breached the Comments Policy guidelines, why don't you repeat the little trick you're so fond of and complain to Eric Olsen when your fine sense of objective outrage is offended?"
And who did EO side with again? (Should I post the email???)
But, I seem to be making you somewhat...angry...so I suppose I should stop now. It's been fun! ;-)
188 - Dave Nalle
RJ, you forget that in this context 'subjective' actually means 'likely to disagree with christopher rose'.
Dave
189 - Dr Dreadful
Sir Clive actually is (or was, a while back) the Director of Football at Southampton FC. So yes, he does know a fair bit about the round ball game.
He's got experience of major tournaments, winning when it counts and the expectation and pressure that comes with coaching an England side. Not as the head coach, but I can certainly see there being some sort of role for him in the set-up.
190 - STM
Doc, I know it's a few hours' difference on the West Coast for you, so if you're still up, the exit polls are pointing to a big swing against the Liberals and a resounding Labor victory, and even have Prime Minister John Howard at risk of losing his own seat in Sydney.
I will believe it when I see it.
Counting has already begun. Unless it goes down to the wire, we will have a result in a few hours later tonight our time (late Saturday night).
If you are not awake, I'll leave a post on this thread.
Cheers mate ... have to get back to work.
Also looking forward to the free pizza the boss is putting on :)
191 - Dr Dreadful
Still awake... just.
The wife is finally going to bed having been up since 4 a.m. to hit the 'Black Friday' sales - the traditional post-Thanksgiving spend-a-thon.
I refused to go with her because to do so seemed like the equivalent of Steve Irwin sticking his head in a croc's mouth.
Then, when she was done at the sales, she went to work.
Looks like we'll be having a lie in tomorrow, so there will certainly be a result by the time I check the news. It sounds promising.
192 - STM
Actually Doc, the counting has started in earnest and the way it's going I really don't believe Labor can win the 16 seats it needs to win - even though it's still early doors.
There have been some big swings, but they are in seats that aren't marginal, so they don't really count. That's the problem.
I still reckon the Liberals by a whisker. Probably with Howard at the helm again, sadly.
193 - STM
Doc, the Member for Bennelong (John Winston Howard, PM) is way behind in the counting and may lose his own seat, which he's held for three decades as a career politician. That's the latest from the central tally room. Bizarre stuff. Not all booths counted yet, and preferences from the minor parties and independents still to be distributed. Still, it's out there.
194 - STM
Dave: sorry for using your thread as a de facto Aussie federal election thread, but where do us old Labor/Labour blokes go??
195 - Christopher Rose
When the Huey, Dewey and Louie of Blogcritics, aka, Nalle, RJ, and Lumpy agree, you can be sure of this: either the end of the world is nigh or they are talking utter drivel.
In the sane world, it seems the appointment of a new Australian government and a new England manager are almost upon us.
It's clear that Howard is on his way out of office and possibly out of politics too, as he looks likely to lose his seat to a former TV presenter, whilst in the motherland, it looks like we're going to bring in another outsider in the shape of Fabio Capelli.
Interesting times...
196 - STM
Doc, it's an emphatic Labor victory.
One of the highest swings ever against a government in an Australian federal election. It still means, however, that Rudd governs with a small minority as the swing needed was huge and he will have a maximum margin of six or seven seats with the likely final result of 23-24 seats won above the 16 needed.
This is only for the House of Representatives, as the Senate is not a full senate election, so the libs might hold on a bit there but that will be an irritant more than anything.
Even with the votes not counted in Western Australia, where the polls close three hours later, the Liberals can't win enough seats to claw it back even under their best-case scenario.
The people have spoken against a government with no vision for the future, stuck in the Menzies era of the '50s and '60s, and which thought that a country with a strong economy, productivty/wages trade-offs and the western world's best workplace laws and conditions would be happy going back to the early 1900s (when the courts began arguing minimum wages and conditions and awards) with his employer-driven, draconian WorkChoices (no choices) legislation that stripped workers of all their awards, penalty rates, etc.
Now they know they can't keep lying to us and get away with it and it's cost them a humiliating electoral defeat.
'Cause ultimately, WE decide who's in power, not them. Democracy at work is a wonderful thing. That's a lesson for all politicians and governments of similar ilk (like the US, but do they ever learn).
Now they go, with their tales between their legs. And glad I am.
197 - STM
Hello Rosey.
I LOVE democracy.
198 - STM
Howard will be only the second sitting PM to lose his seat in an election. Stanley Melbourne Bruce was the last one - in 1929.
That's a historical victory, by any standards.
Perhaps it's also an indication of what might happen in the US, as the moods of the two countries seem quite similar at the moment.
199 - STM
Dave, I will do a full on-the-ground wrap-up of the election on Monday (Sunday your time) as there have been huge changes, including a big Greens vote. I believe it is an indicator of what is to come in the US in the 2008 presidential election (I could easily be wrong of course, but you'd have to say the mood has been similar in both places). I can't do it tonight as I'm working, and tomorrow (Sunday) I will be looking after my daughter, who is sick.
Cheers mate.
200 - Mark Saleski
"And re your #161: If you genuinely believe I have breached the Comments Policy guidelines, why don't you repeat the little trick you're so fond of and complain to Eric Olsen when your fine sense of objective outrage is offended?"
And who did EO side with again? (Should I post the email???)
this is crackin' me up. here's rj, the guy banned from bc for a month for calling a woman a cunt, wrapping himself in the comments policy banner.
too much.
201 - Dave Nalle
Re. #199. I was going to suggest exactly that, Stan. There seems to be interest, and who better than you to write it up with your on the gound perspective. Looking forward to it.
And BTW, the only thing 'huey, dewey and louie' seem to agree on is that Chris Rose is a snarky git.
Dave
202 - Christopher Rose
"And BTW, the only think 'huey, dewey and louie'.
That's three spelling mistakes in one thread. You really are losing it!
Folks, to avoid confusion, Dave, who doesn't care about spelling, actually went into the comments tool to correct his mistake.
203 - REMF
What's a "git"...?
204 - Dave Nalle
I care about spelling, I'm just not going to obsess over a mistake, and it is convenient to be able to fix one.
I type 'think' for 'thing' all the time. It's a mental aberration. Once I start typing a word motor memory sometimes takes over and finishes a different word instead.
Clinically intriguing, but ultimately trivial, like most of the things you seem so bizarrely concerned with.
Dave
205 - Christopher Rose
There's more to it than that; I care about the truth, regardless of who is right, whilst you care about proving yourself right whilst claiming to want the truth.
If that's trivial, well, trivial it is.
However, it's interesting to learn about this "motor memory" condition of yours, particularly as it seems to affect your perception too. Perhaps what you first learned about a subject is your "motor memory" of it, regardless of any later updated information?
206 - Dr Dreadful
Just woke up and saw the outcome on the BBC website, Stan. You're feeling quite pleased, it appears!
What probably hammered the final nail into Howard's
thick headcoffin was those fake "Labor Loves the Bali Bombers" leaflets that some Liberal genius thought would be a good idea to distribute right before election day.Stanley Melbourne Bruce, eh? Wonder what the story was with him. I mean, you can't get a much more Australian name than that. (Bruce Dickinson, the lead singer of Iron Maiden, used to go by the stage name Bruce Bruce, but he's a Brit and proud of it: he once went onstage for a concert in Australia wearing a t-shirt with "Pommie Bastard" written on it in large letters.)
Will look forward to your analysis on Monday, or whenever you get around to it.
How was the pizza, and are there any leftovers? I just had breakfast but I've still got room.
207 - Dr Dreadful
REMF, I don't know where "gound" came from, but "git" is a very enjoyable and ancient British slang word denoting a foolish, often older male, person. In American terms, it probably fits somewhere between "idiot" and "asshole" in terms of insult strength.
Not to be confused with "git", a word used by agricultural workers in the state of Texas to coax livestock into moving.
208 - Clavos
Or, in Georgia, Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi and other Deep South states, git means to acquire, as in "Ahm gonna git me a good woman who can cook and clean and who knows her place."
209 - Dave Nalle
There's more to it than that; I care about the truth, regardless of who is right,
Actually, the evidence would suggest that all you really care about is childish one-upsmanship.
whilst you care about proving yourself right whilst claiming to want the truth.
The truth can take care of itself, Christopher. It certainly doesn't dance to your tune.
Dave
210 - gonzo marx
Chris sez - "Folks, to avoid confusion, Dave, who doesn't care about spelling, actually went into the comments tool to correct his mistake."
waitafuckingminnit!!!
i thought one of the conditions on the entire Vox scandal was that NO ONE, except the Comment Editor could now adjust/edit comments?
if such is NOT the case, and Vox has access to the Record, then ALL semblance of Credibility has just gone completely down the shitter
either post the Reply here, or e-mail me..imo, this is fucking crucial
Excelsi.....ah, fuck it?
211 - Silver Surfer
While we're on strange words, it's my humble opinion that the real reason Mr Howard lost the Australian election, the prime ministership AND probably his own seat in parliament that he'd held for 33 years is that (while I can't speak for how he is personally), as a politician, the man came across as a POLTROON and a DASTARD and the majority saw through it all..
He told too many lies and thought people would fall for the pea and thimble tricks. Why don't pollies ever learn?
Poltroonery! Let's hope the new bloke doesn't fall into the same trap.
212 - Christopher Rose
Dave, that's not remotely what the evidence suggests, it's just what you'd like it to be. It's presumably yet another demonstration of this motor memory problem you have.
It seems to go like this:- I state I want the truth, regardless of the source. Your motor memory takes over and you ignore my words in favour of your imprinted response.
Or, I say I prefer the truth and you reply that the truth can look after itself, which is both untrue and irrelevant.
The fact is that we are deceived many times in life; by our governments, by businesses, by politicians and so on. My view is that any time this occurs, we the people are being manipulated into doing or supporting things that we would otherwise not endorse.
I have always preferred an ugly truth to a beautiful lie, except possibly sometimes to spare someone some undeserved or unnecessary pain. Maybe that is part of why I instinctively prefer science and reason to religion and faith. Love, understanding and compassion are truly the most radical of qualities and easy to differentiate from their cruel opposites.
With all that in mind, it is axiomatic that none of us can ever be right all the time, which is why I have no problem at all with the concepts of shared experience, such as the internet in general, sites like this in particular (where dogma is limited to individual voices rather than a matter of policy), collective action and the entire practice and approach of the scientific community.
Given all that, I would hope the truthfulness of my statement that I don't have a problem with WHO is right, as compared with WHAT is true, be apparent to all but the most wilful or cynical of minds.
gonzo, not THAT big a deal really. Despite this current petty spat between Nalle and myself, I continue to believe that the Vox Populi incident was more cockup than conspiracy. All he did in this instance was give in to his need to be right and correct a spelling mistake. Unfortunately for him I was online at the time and caught him in the act. You can see exactly what he did by comparing #201 and #202 above.
Yeah, maybe he shouldn't have done it, the drives of ego are so strong in him, but he still deserves some understanding, just as does his "arch nemesis", our little moonraven. That's why I continue to edit out her excesses rather than simply block her from the site, which would be so much easier. She just can't help herself.
Actually, all the editorial folk have access to the comments tool and it is possible that any of them could be fucking around with the comments space. To the best of my knowledge, that never happens and I'm pretty sure it would soon come out if someone did, so I don't consider it a thing to be concerned about.
I hope you, and anybody else for that matter, will accept my assurance that the comments space is what it appears to be. I would certainly let the cat out of the bag if it were not so for, as I have said on more than one occasion, my commitment is to this site and its collective community rather than the interests of anybody, editor or owner.
As the Silver Surfer reminds us, trickery, deception and lies always get caught out in the end. That's one of the reasons I don't bother with them. I am actually quite skilled at the art of lying but choose not to do it. The time and effort involved in maintaining lies expand exponentially and the short term gains almost never outweigh the long term costs.
Of course, that might be a lie, mwuahahahahahahahahah!
213 - troll
*She just can't help herself.*
...of course she can
214 - troll
and Chris - thanks for your job of censoring of late - it has allowed me to engage in a 'conversation' with Marthe that I would otherwise have avoided and which (for your info and peace of mind) I'm done with
215 - Christopher Rose
troll, I thought you were one of the people that stood up for her before she turned on you too? That's why I don't think she can help herself. She's another that has already decided what the answers are in advance. Personally I wake up every morning with a delightfully empty head - although that is possibly the product of my earlier more dissolute lifestyle ;-)
216 - troll
that would be her story - however she never turned on me until I got fed up with her constant abuse of others
217 - Dave Nalle
Dave, that's not remotely what the evidence suggests, it's just what you'd like it to be. It's presumably yet another demonstration of this motor memory problem you have.
It seems to go like this:- I state I want the truth, regardless of the source. Your motor memory takes over and you ignore my words in favour of your imprinted response.
Chris, why don't you just drop this line of utter self-righteous bullshit, since it's both untrue and I find it deeply offensive. Maybe you should display a minimal amount of respect for me and consider that I find your constant veiled accusations that I'm a chronic liar offensive. You've got no justification for it, your arguments to support it consist of nothing but repeated assertions, and it drags out idiotic exchanges where you make no effort to understand or even pay attention to anything I say.
Regardless of whether you AGREE with my characterization of these exchanges, this is my honest perception of them - that your mind is totally closed and you make zero effort to understand anything I'm saying. That you disagree with my perception doesn't change the perception.
Or, I say I prefer the truth and you reply that the truth can look after itself, which is both untrue and irrelevant.
No, it's a statement that I don't believe we're discussing the truth. We're arguing over personal perspectives and it's an argument which clearly goes nowhere.
The fact is that we are deceived many times in life; by our governments, by businesses, by politicians and so on. My view is that any time this occurs, we the people are being manipulated into doing or supporting things that we would otherwise not endorse.
Well sure. Who'd argue with that? I guess we might argue over whether that deception is a good or a bad thing. I see it as essentially marketing and that there are degrees of deception. There's a huge difference between outright lying and shaping an argument to make a case or 'sell' an idea or a thing. Do you object to advertising in print and on TV? Do you object to politicians making campaign promises and presenting themselves in a particular way to attract votes?
I get the impression that you think of all of these things as deceptive, and they may be on a very low level, but they're still below the level of unacceptability or straight out lying.
I have always preferred an ugly truth to a beautiful lie, except possibly sometimes to spare someone some undeserved or unnecessary pain. Maybe that is part of why I instinctively prefer science and reason to religion and faith. Love, understanding and compassion are truly the most radical of qualities and easy to differentiate from their cruel opposites.
Sounds nice, but I think you're expressing an incredibly simplistic and immature worldview. This is the same kind of self-righteous black and white perspective which gonzo often exhibits. It sounds great and probably makes you feel good, but it's not sufficient to address events in the real world.
With all that in mind, it is axiomatic that none of us can ever be right all the time, which is why I have no problem at all with the concepts of shared experience, such as the internet in general, sites like this in particular (where dogma is limited to individual voices rather than a matter of policy), collective action and the entire practice and approach of the scientific community.
I agree. This is why I'd rather be here on BC where there is diversity of perspective rather than on one of the many partisan sights where diversity is suppressed.
Given all that, I would hope the truthfulness of my statement that I don't have a problem with WHO is right, as compared with WHAT is true, be apparent to all but the most wilful or cynical of minds.
Except that IMO you don't grasp the absolutely fundamental fact that truth is subjective. Facts are more or less objective, but the truth of what those facts mean is different to different people.
All he did in this instance was give in to his need to be right and correct a spelling mistake.
It's not my need to be 'right', it's the fact that I have access to the ability to correct a mistake, so why allow the mistake to stand? My ability to type quickly and accurately should never be germane to any discussion and it's a distraction I can sometime dispose of.
Unfortunately for him I was online at the time and caught him in the act. You can see exactly what he did by comparing #201 and #202 above.
The unfortunate thing is that you commented on it, which oversteps your responsibility as comments editor and is inherently divisive. It serves no purpose except to gratify your ego.
Yeah, maybe he shouldn't have done it, the drives of ego are so strong in him, but he still deserves some understanding,
Thanks for the condescension. It has nothing to do with ego, it has to do with wanting to communicate clearly. That you continually sidetrack onto this issue of ego is offensive and mainly shows your own egotistical inability to refrain from being gratuitously judgemental.
You diminish your role as comments editor by behaving the way that you do.
Dave
218 - troll
hey Dave - would you please correct my numerous spelling and grammar errors...and while you're at it you might bring my ideas more into line with then mainstream
nothing like an editor
219 - gonzo marx
Christopher sez - "gonzo, not THAT big a deal really. Despite this current petty spat between Nalle and myself, I continue to believe that the Vox Populi incident was more cockup than conspiracy."
my Response to this Revelation is in the Chavez thread...but i'll paste it here too, for the sake of being thorough
-------------------------------------------------
well Christopher, and all other Readers...
this screams pure bullshit to yer gonzo
the entire resolution of the Vox Affair was predicated on the statements that NO ONE , except the Comments Editor would have access to said editing tool, and thus the Record would be complete, accurate and unchanged with the sole Exception fo deletions, clearly marked, by aforementioned Comments Editor
this revelation that such has NOT occurred, and that Vox STILL has access to the very tool used in the cover up surrounding his breaking of Policy (to wit, "I've seen figures..." breach of Comment policy...posting with another name in the same thread to bolster your own argument)- means that this entire website cannot be trusted for the Record
even if everything is 100% pristine, the mere fact that the same person/editor who knowingly abused the editing tool in a fraudulent manner...(and got a Libby style "pardon" to boot) STILL has the ability to continue abuse just bloggles my Mind
directly to you, Christopher...you said i was one of the *sane* ones...and asked Restraint and good manners(sort of) and reasonableness...
after this Revelation..you have got to be fucking kidding me
this revelation means that to me, this entire website has LESS legitimacy than Baghdad Bob, or Robert Novak, or Pravda
and i find it's a damn fucking shame, it feels like an olde Friend just died
fuck that...
--------------------------------------------
and that's the Way of It...
nuff said?
220 - gonzo marx
Vox sez - "Maybe you should display a minimal amount of respect for me and consider that I find your constant veiled accusations that I'm a chronic liar offensive."
i won't be thinly veiled, and you have squandered ANY right to a "minimal amount of respect"
"I've seen figures similar to..."
fuck that
221 - troll
gonzo - as the whole Record will disappear in a flash given any cosmic emp brain fart I wouldn't mourn its bogus nature too deeply
...in these trying times it pays to keep your perspective
hope that helps as you would say
222 - gonzo marx
thanks for the Thought, troll
but it doesn't
as Dr. Mcoy would say ..."it's dead, Jim"
fuck that
223 - troll
well...don't hurt yourself xxoo (platonic-ally speaking as the Shark would have pointed out)
224 - troll
hmmm...where'd you get the idea that Dave had lost access to the comments tools anyway - ?
I don't remember any such commitment from the powers that be
225 - Franco
I don't know about why an editor making spelling corrections gets everyone so upset. But what is upsetting is watching the comments editor and an editor going at it. I am not going to take sides but the one with more authority should surly be the one trying to set a good example. Still hoping to see it.
gonzo, what is happeniing?