Real homeland security comes from giving citizens the ability to defend themselves and others, not from wiretaps and warrantless searches.
On Tuesday evening Sulejman Talovic headed to Trolley Square Mall like many other Salt Lake City teens. But instead of a credit card and iPod, he had a shotgun and .38 caliber pistol hidden under his black trenchcoat - plus a backpack full of ammunition.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments176 - Christopher Rose
oh and Dave, you don't half spout a lot of socio-political nonsense but this paranoid pearl is one of your worst.
"We should establish a system where we're massively prepared for national defense, but don't have the mechanisms for military aggression."
Why the fuck would you want to turn the USA into an even more warlike industrial-military complex than it already is?
Maybe you should write some more articles for the Arts side of BC and take a breather from all this giddy political nonsense?
177 - Clavos
Chris,
If you "don't want to start another argument," then don't be a hypocrite and post statements you know full well will start another argument...
178 - Aku
"the American obsession with guns is another example of exactly the kind of behaviour that we see in teenagers and therefore supports my other contention that the USA is an adolescent nation."
Would the Swiss obsession with guns show them to be an adolescent nation? You should try looking into swiss Gun culture. They do it quite a bit better than we do IMHO.
179 - Paul2
"there are more gun homicides per capita in many countries, with Honduras and Colombia leading the way with enormlously more than the US."
Dave with all due respect,l as STM has mentioned, these figures cannot be compared, I listed the offical numbers before and you ignored them, simply because they don't fit into your picture. Why, if not for gun proliferation, do these numbers vary so much ?
HOMICIDES 1999-2001 per 100,000 people
USA 5,6
New Zealand 2,5
Australia 1,9
Canada 1,8
European Union 1,6
Barclay, G. and Tavares C.: International Comparisons of Criminal Justice Statistics 2000, Home Office Statistical Bulletin 05, London 2002.
Killias, M.: European Sourcebook of Crime Criminal Justice Statistics, The Hague, 2003.
180 - Deano
Aku,
The Swiss aren't obsessed with guns - they are obsessed with neutrality. Part and parcel of maintaining their neutrality is to have a large, available and trained militia to draw on in the event of a war. That is hugely different in both intent and in action than the US policy around domestic gun ownership.
I think the Swiss model works quite well - for the Swiss. I do not think it is applicable to the US, partially for cultural reasons and partially for sheer size and scale. 600,000 is controllable, 300-million is not.
One story I heard summed up the Swiss attitude towards invasion - when told the potential invader had more twice as many men and asked what they would do then, the Swiss officer shrugged and said laconically, "I guess we'll each have to shoot twice..."
181 - MCH
"Chris,
If you "don't want to start another argument," then don't be a hypocrite and post statements you know full well will start another argument..."
- Clavos
There you go again with your "selective judgment" Clavvy, eg, Nalle's hypocrisy has never seemed to phase you, even when he attempted to deceive BC participants, and then lied about it, during the Vox Populi scam...
182 - Christopher Rose
Clavos: You have this wonderfully delicious way of looking at things all back to front. It would be hypocritical if I said one thing but meant another, which I obviously didn't do.
I feared it would start another argument because folk like you and Mr Nalle have over-reacted to the idea before. Just because you don't seem to be able to get past the idea that it is somehow demeaning doresn't mean it shouldn't be said or that it is wrong. So far you just keep providing more evidence to support my view rather than actually talking.
Kids!
183 - STM
BTW, Talovic was a Bosnian teenager who came to the US with his parents after the siege of Sbrenica. During the shelling of the town by Bosnian Serb forces, his grandfather was killed.
In the same action, thousands of Bosnian muslim men and boys were massacred by Bosnian Serb forces. Talovic managed to survive, was rescued by UN troops and given refugee status, but you'd have to think he'd be pretty scarred by what he saw and experienced as a boy. His juvenile crime record, BTW, was quite minor - not much worse than plenty of others.
It's worth noting here that mass killings or other random acts of violence are often carried out by people suffering from severe depression resulting from PTSD - a condition often caused by exposure to war or some other kind of traumatic experience.
My guess is that had Talovic been angry in England, or Australia, or Canada, et al, a couple of people might have been getting split lips stitched up right now.
This has nothing to do with lone wolf muslim attacks ... it's about a screwed up, angry teenager acting out.
The problem with screwed up, acting out angry teenagers in the US is that they have easy access to guns.
Dave, I hate telling anyone that what they write is bunkum, so I won't.
But it IS piffle ... I just don't see how you can make these sorts of conclusions.
184 - Clavos
Chris, Chris, Chris...
In your own words, you DID say one thing while meaning another; that's the very definition of saying that you don't want to start another argument and then following that with an argumentative observation.
QED
185 - zingzing
what are you here for, clavos? a back rub?
186 - STM
QED
In meliora contende
187 - Dave Nalle
Gifts from Christopher:
the American obsession with guns is another example of exactly the kind of behaviour that we see in teenagers and therefore supports my other contention that the USA is an adolescent nation.
I wish we WERE an adolescent nation, that would offer us a lot mroe hope than we have right now, but as I've demonstrated before, historically as the cycle of nations goes, we're in late middle age, and as most of us should be aware, we're already showing plenty of signs of decadence
oh and Dave, you don't half spout a lot of socio-political nonsense but this paranoid pearl is one of your worst.
"We should establish a system where we're massively prepared for national defense, but don't have the mechanisms for military aggression."
Why the fuck would you want to turn the USA into an even more warlike industrial-military complex than it already is?
You seem to have fundamentally misunderstood this idea. It's the opposite of building up th emilitary-industrial complex. It's the elimination of a standing army and the aparatus it requires and replacing it with citizen soldiers who would have more of a vested interest in the welfare of the people, not the welfare of munitions makers.
dave
188 - Dave Nalle
Dave with all due respect,l as STM has mentioned, these figures cannot be compared, I listed the offical numbers before and you ignored them, simply because they don't fit into your picture. Why, if not for gun proliferation, do these numbers vary so much ?
The fact that I have to answer this same question over and over again is characteristic of the delusional thinking of the left which makes it impossible to even perceive arguments which counter their assumptions.
Of the many possible explanations I've offered, the one which I think is probably the largest contributor is drug prohibition, the massive level of urbanization, and the presence of ethnic/cultural gangs which thrive in that culture and perpetuate violence. As I've already pointed out, if you take drug-related violence out of the picture the figures for US homicides start to look very much like every other nation.
Dave
189 - Dave Nalle
BTW, to update the story for those who suggested that the attack in SLC was not related to Islam, Talovic had recently joined a Mosque with a radical Wahabi Imam, and he attended a service immediately before going to the mall and launching his attack. You do the math.
dave
190 - zingzing
dave: "Of the many possible explanations I've offered, the one which I think is probably the largest contributor is drug prohibition,"
worse in europe.
"the massive level of urbanization,"
worse in europe.
"and the presence of ethnic/cultural gangs which thrive in that culture and perpetuate violence."
worse in europe.
191 - STM
Come on Dave: If America as a nation is in late middle age, then what are the poms? Six foot under and skeletal?
No, Rosie is dead-set right: you are a pack of naughty bloody adolescents, just like us. That is why you are obsessed with long cylindrical things ...
192 - Clavos
Stan,
You have a real talent for bringing controversy down to a level where we can all laugh.
It's a gift; I mean that.
193 - Zedd
#181 DITTO!!!
194 - Dave Nalle
dave: "Of the many possible explanations I've offered, the one which I think is probably the largest contributor is drug prohibition,"
worse in europe.
Wow, I've got to hand you this one. I went and looked up the stats and was shocked. The number of drug related homicides in Europe is insanely high. Only the Netherlands is better than the US, and some of the other countries have 10x the drug related homicide rate we do.
Since everythiing is about guns, maybe guns are actually preventin drug related homicides in the US.
"and the presence of ethnic/cultural gangs which thrive in that culture and perpetuate violence."
worse in europe.
On this one I'm afraid I do have the right point, and the stats bear me out. The European Journal of Criminology just published a report on the subject. The conclusion: "European gangs in over a dozen countries reveal a wide pattern of violent behaviour and levels of violence that are far greater than among non-gang youth, but largely less serious than in the USA."
Dave
195 - Christopher Rose
It's a constant source of amazement to me how folk like Dave and Clavos are stuck in such huge mental ruts they can't even notice anymore. Maybe they could merge and we can call them Davos? lol
Dave, just for the sake of indulging your fantasies, tell us more about this idea of yours of the "citizen soldier" that has a "vested interest in the welfare of the people". It sounds just like another of these falsely noble fantasies of yours where every citizen is some kind of social vigilante. Others might consider it a type of latent or pseudo fascism that has a lot of potential for abuse.
Personally, I consider it yet another example of classic US juvenilia.
I notice that you even managed to work in one of your habitual smears against the left side of politics, even though nothing at all was said about this. Hmm, total presumption and making up false enemies to confirm your own sense of rightness. How very adolescent! Do you have acne too?
As just one example of the poli-babble Dave offers us, look at this classic Nalleism:
"Of the many possible explanations I've offered, the one which I think is probably the largest contributor is drug prohibition, the massive level of urbanization, and the presence of ethnic/cultural gangs which thrive in that culture and perpetuate violence."
Dave, that's THREE things not one...
The fact is, with 60% more people in Europe than there are in the USA, people who are crammed into less than half the space the US occupies, it would be reasonable to expect all social indicators to be far, far worse in Europe than the USA but they're not. Again, that tells me the USA is a juvenile country, which is still NOT a put down of the place at all.
196 - Dave Nalle
Christopher, I've been thinking about it, and now that I've had some time, I'm convinced that I hope you're correct that the US is a juvenile country, because the alternative would be to be a 'mature' country, which is presumably what we see in Europe these days, and if embracing socialism, cultural decay and institutionalized corription is maturity, I'd just as soon the US stay juvenile.
Dave
197 - Christopher Rose
dave, that's just lovely; ignore your own errors, twist the meaning of what I said and turn it into another baseless attack on Europe. How predictable, inaccurate and just plain prejudiced a load of drivel you've just written.
No wonder people feel the need to argue with you all the time when you seem to lack any sense of personal responsibility at all whilst emptily pontificating.
And how amusing it is that after months of belittling my opinion on this topic, you simultaneously agree with it and provide further evidence of its penetrating accuracy. Kids!
198 - Dave Nalle
Christopher, you just can't be satisfied, can you. Here I am embracing your hopelessly unsupportable and simplistic position and you get all huffy about it.
This whole idea of mature and juvenile nations is a pile of crap, and you should know better. Nations today are too complex and diverse to be classified that way. The people who make up even a relatively young nation like the US are part of an international intellectual community and come from diverse backgrounds, and it's impossible to separate them from an awareness of what's going on in the rest of the world just because they are living in America.
That said, every nation has a certain core belief set or tradition or set of values which people who live there try to preserve or adopt because those values are part of the reason why they came to that nation. In fact, immigrants are often the strongest believers in those values.
The values of America are different from those of most of the European nations. We have different priorities. We value individual liberty much higher than most other countries and we value collective welfare and even human life just a little bit less. As a nation we've made a conscious choice to accept an armed citizenry as part of our national character, even if it costs us a few hundred more lives per year. We believe that it brings corresponding benefits which make it worthwhile, even if those benefits may only be the illusion of being able to defend yourself against criminals and abusive government. Gun ownership is, as much as anything else, a statement of principles.
I realize that this seems alien, even incomprehensible to the peaceloving folks of many other parts of the world, because guns play a different role in their society. They don't make gun ownership part of their national culture, and it's probably a good thing, since if they did they'd likely be shooting each other at football matches. They know their limits.
Gun ownership symbolizes the responsibility the individual takes on in our society. By owning a gun you are saying that you can have the power the gun represents and yet not abuse it.
I realize that this entire concept is fundamentally alien to your worldview, but you might want to just learn to accept the fact that your particular cultural values are not universally accepted or inherently better than everyone else's.
Dave
199 - Christopher Rose
dave: How could I be satisfied when you're so remorselessly dim? How the hell can my position be hopelessly unsupportable when you're now supporting it? You just sound sillier with each passing pronouncement, so why don't you just stop now?
I don't think the idea of mature and juvenile nations is remotely a bunch of crap and everything you write here just serves to strengthen my view. As to what you realise or understand, here is a symbolic representation of it:- 0
Oh yeah, should I ever need to gain a deeper understanding of relative cultural values, rest asured that it won't be from such a blusteringly empty ego as belongs to a self-professed elitist pig like you.
200 - zingzing
dave: "As a nation we've made a conscious choice to accept an armed citizenry as part of our national character... We believe that it brings corresponding benefits which make it worthwhile... Gun ownership is, as much as anything else, a statement of principles."
obviously, we "as a nation" have decided no such thing. or else, we "as a nation" wouldn't be arguing about it. "as a nation" (or as free individuals, which is it?) we haven't made "a concious choice" about anything.
201 - Al Barger
Dave Nalle is not just a dirty elitist pig, but hopelessly stupid and unsophisticated, as Chris Rose so brilliantly elucidates. See, big dumb cowboy Nalle thinks that the best likely defense and even deterrent for lone wolf terrorists with guns and grenades is an armed citizenry ready to defend themselves individually on the scene.
Whereas, a truly responsible and thoughtful person like Christopher Rose knows that a mature country would address the problem through talk and persuasion. If HE had been in Utah at this mall, he would have responded with a display of loving sympathy for this understandably aggrieved young man suffering the horror and injustice of being a Muslim in the US, disallowed from the imposition of Sharia law and the proper summary execution of whores running around American streets with their bare faces showing.
After a good sympathetic talk and some compensatory oral favors from Mr Rose to soothe his injured sense of pride, this oppressed young Muslim would no doubt have turned from his justifiable urge to kill to a thoughtful purveyor of peace and wisdom.
When will stupid juvenile Americans ever learn?
202 - zingzing
al, you're putting words in chris' mouth, and into the mouth of a dead man.
was he a hard-line muslim? do you presume to know?
now... if teenagers had a harder time getting ahold of guns in this country, do you think this would have happened at all?
203 - Christopher Rose
You just know an argument is lost when spiky Al Barger turns up to defend it. Just as the idea of 300 million armed Americans, all possessed of the profound insight, tolerance and respect for others as displayed here by Messrs Barger and Nalle would surely cause any lucid person cause for concern.
Al, to treat just the closing part of your remarks with more respect than they deserve, I didn't say or imply that Americans were stupid, I said that the country was young. Somehow you and your paranoid pal manage to construe that as an insult of some kind. I consider myself jolly fortunate not to be in the same space as the pair of you, for you would surely run me out of town at gunpoint! Golly gosh, I'm frightened!
204 - Al Barger
Christopher, you flatter yourself to think yourself significant enough that I would be bothered to run you out of town.
But I would be happy that the thought of armed Nalles and Bargers would cause hopefully very grave concern for those what would have the thought of wanting to show up in an American mall with weapons and ill intent.
I have no interest in fake profound insights, tolerance or respect for such folks. My principle interest there would be in identifying and killing them as quickly as possible before they hurt anyone else.
205 - zingzing
thank you for protecting us, mr. al. of course, someone may want to identify and kill you. maybe the two of you (you and your killer, and of course you being his killer, your victim, you victim) could hunt for each other, like soul mates in a search for the ultimate blood-love bliss out murder fuck fight.
206 - Dave Nalle
Zing. You may have a future as a reality TV programmer.
dave
207 - Al Barger
Zingzing, that's pretty dishonest of you right there- as if you are incapable of making the distinction between advocating killing a shooter in a mall vs just opening fire on anyone you don't like. And your fake Freudian psychological insights are even less intellectually impressive.
208 - zingzing
fake freudian psychological insights? where? i don't even believe in freud!
i was just saying... there's absolutely no reason why that kid should have been able to get ahold of those guns. no reason. in any sane society, it just wouldn't happen (at least not with the frequency it does here).
and i'm not trying to make distinctions. i think if you allow guns in your society like we do in ours, you get what you fucking deserve. the only thing i hope is that it's those that live by the gun that die by it. and for the most part it is.
i ain't happy this thing happened, but that's what you have to expect when you make it so easy for 15 year old kids to get their hands on guns and ammo. thank you, nra.
as for "making the distinction between advocating killing a shooter in a mall vs just opening fire on anyone you don't like," one of those people could be you (maybe you would be killing a shooter) and one of those could be this kid (just opening fire on anyone)... but how the fuck am i supposed to know who is who? do you know? nope, you don't. i don't trust anyone with a gun.
209 - Dave Nalle
Ok, let me clarify something that Zing and perhaps others (Chris) don't seem to understand.
Talovid was IN POSSESSION OF THE GUNS ILLEGALLY. At his age of 18 he is not legally allowed to purchase or own a firearm in the United States. You have to be 21. He's allowed to fire guns under adult supervision, but not own or possess them.
So any wider ban of guns or stronger licensing laws would not have stopped him, because he was already breaking the law. Gun control is really not at issue here at all.
how the fuck am i supposed to know who is who? do you know? nope, you don't.
Exactly. And not knowing you ought to behave as if anyone could be carrying a gun, and therefore be polite and obey the law.
dave
210 - zingzing
or else they'll kill me? that's no way to live.
and yes, gun control is an issue here. if guns were illegal, it would have been MUCH, MUCH harder (note i didn't say impossible) for him to get ahold of one.
the question is, would this have happened in another country with stricter gun control? i think the percentages would most certainly go down, and i don't see how you could argue against that.
211 - Christopher Rose
Dave, if there were effectively policed gun laws in place, it would have been a lot harder for Talovid to get them in the first place.
You don't seem to have much appreciation for the process of enabling that goes on. The slippery slope is another way of putting it. That or the road to hell is paved with good intentions...
212 - Clavos
Dave, if there were effectively policed gun laws in place, it would have been a lot harder for Talovid to get them in the first place.
The key phrase there is "effectively policed."
We don't even come close to controlling the availability of drugs, which is why many want to legalize them.
Rather than outlaw guns, which almost surely will be futile, we should be strictly enforcing (and enacting, where necessary) laws against the commission of crime with a firearm.
The problem with that is we're too "humane" to really throw the book at criminals of any kind these days, so increasingly, those bent on mayhem are no longer deterred...
213 - Dave Nalle
Clavos hit the nail on the head in #212. Punishing gun crime is the right way to approach this issue, rather than banning guns.
And we might be able to put gun criminals in jail longer if we opened up space by letting out non-violent drug offenders.
Dave
214 - STM
Al and Dave running you out of the mall ... thumbs tucked into sagging gunbelts ... cowboy hats twisted at a rakish angle ... a permanent squint ... a slow spit into the dirt without losing eye contact ... that laconic, cowboy drawl: "Boy, I said put down that there ice-cream or I'll fill yer full of holes."
Doesn't bear thinking about.
215 - Christopher Rose
Clavos: The arguments for attempting to control the availability of drugs have nothing to do with attempting to control weapons proliferation.
The majority of US citizens have no use for weapons and proposals to extend the already excessive number of weapons in the USA for purposes of amateur crime control are simply absurd.
As for increasing the already high proportion of US citizens in jail, well, the land of the free is already one of the most legalistic and punishment oriented countries in the world and any moves to increase that figure seem unlikely to have the desired result.
As the US prison system is already one of the best ways to become a hard core gang member and seems to return many once young criminals to the streets with a greater level of alienation from society than before, its effectiveness could also be considered dubious.
216 - Zedd
Chris and STM
You make me feel sane!!! I have a reprieve from the Twilight Zone!!! I can just read and enjoy. Its so good to see someone else knocking their heads against what seems to be a rock. Good luck fellows. Now if you could only live on my street and work in my company.
217 - Clavos
The arguments for attempting to control the availability of drugs have nothing to do with attempting to control weapons proliferation.
The majority of US citizens have no use for weapons...
But the majority DO have a use for drugs, eh?
Jesus, Christopher, that was a stupid remark; even for you.
As for increasing the already high proportion of US citizens in jail, well, the land of the free is already one of the most legalistic and punishment oriented countries in the world and any moves to increase that figure seem unlikely to have the desired result.
As the US prison system is already one of the best ways to become a hard core gang member and seems to return many once young criminals to the streets with a greater level of alienation from society than before...
Most of them are hard core gang members or are invoved in the drug budsiness before they go in. In fact, most firearm homicides (which are the majority of homicides in general) are drug and/or gang related. Solution: don't let them back out.
Singapore and most Arab countries have both some of the most draconian crime punishments and among the lowest crime rates in the world; that's not a coincidence. Violent crime should be punished harshly.
218 - Christopher Rose
Clavos: I can't quite follow you as you seem to be spiralling ever deeper into incomprehensibility. Saying that the majority of Americans don't have a use for weapons is NOT to say that they have a use for drugs. You seem to be risking sliding into Nallian "let's just make stuff up" territory with this remark.
It's simplistic to try to write off the US prison gang phenomenon by saying stuff like "don't let them back out". Places like Singapore also have a much higher level of mutual respect and a high regard for good manners than the USA or the UK, not just a strict criminal code.
One of the many reasons I love living in Spain is precisely because of what even I consider as old fashioned courtesy. One of the worst insults in Spain is to call someone "maleducado"; that's fighting talk here!
219 - Zedd
Chris
I can't quite follow you as you seem to be spiralling ever deeper into incomprehensibility.
I love this. Its like watching my own mind at work. First you start out thinking "oh they just misunderstood me, let me clarify" then you realise "Oh my goodness!!". From then on its the frustration and puzzlement, the disbelief and exasperation, the eye rolling and lastly will be the giving up. I know I know.... Ahhh heaven.
Its good to watch it unfolding .
You and STM started out mildly now you've gone rabid. Its hopeless I tell you.
Live here long enough and you learn to just numb yourself. You just walk around pretending like it all makes sense. A few pointers. Just know that emotions rule. If it wasn't a theme in a movie, no one gets it. Actually they'll think its evil and must be destroyed.
220 - Clavos
Chris writes,
Saying that the majority of Americans don't have a use for weapons is NOT to say that they have a use for drugs.
Juxtaposing the sentence "The majority of US citizens have no use for weapons..."
immediately after the statement that:
"The arguments for attempting to control the availability of drugs have nothing to do with attempting to control weapons proliferation."
Implies EXACTLY that, Christopher. Now, I realize that my puerile American command of English is not as sophisticated as yours, but I CAN read the language, and intentionally or not, that's the implicit meaning of what you wrote.
It's simplistic to try to write off the US prison gang phenomenon by saying stuff like "don't let them back out".
True. Simple and effective. If they don't come back out, they won't be able to prey on law abiding citizens. What they do to each other in prison doesn't concern me.
To reduce the jail population overall, I agree with Dave's idea that we should stop jailing non violent offenders. Caning the worst of those, as Singapore does, would probably be effective, but I know my soft-hearted countrymen (especially the liberal ones) will never go for that.
On the respect issue: That's a phenomenon that has arisen with the general coarsening of daily life in western societies in modern times. Some of it is a parental issue; increasingly, parents' responsibilities, in this country at least, are ceded to the state school system; to the point where, in many areas, schools literally are now in loco parentis.
One of Rudy Giuliani's major successes as NY mayor was his "broken windows" policy for policing the city, wherein he decreed that the police should stop ignoring the small crimes in an effort to prevent and ameliorate major crime. Along with reorganization of the police force and other measures, the policy worked.
I believe a sociological shift in attitudes wherein we stop ignoring the "broken windows" of respect and manners could be effective. I have no idea how that could be accomplished, which is why I'm not running for president. :>)
221 - Christopher Rose
Clavos: Please keep your juxtapositions to yourself. It's a filthy habit! Personally, I always try to avoid implicit meanings as much as possible, as the potential for misunderstanding is so strong, as you've just so wonderfully demonstrated. You can take it for granted that unless I state something directly or clearly signal an inplied meaning, I didn't mean it. Got it? Good!
As for courtesy, it's something that you either take personal responsibility for or you don't. It's that simple... [Implied meaning alert!]
Good day to you Sir! Huzzah!!
222 - Clavos
You can take it for granted that unless I state something directly or clearly signal an inplied meaning, I didn't mean it. Got it? Good!
In that case, a little more precision in your writing is "clearly" in order...
(And, I agree with you about juxtaposition--the good old missionary was good enough for our great grandparents, it should be for us as well)
223 - Dave Nalle
The majority of US citizens have no use for weapons and proposals to extend the already excessive number of weapons in the USA for purposes of amateur crime control are simply absurd.
Just for the record, only about 50 million US citizens own guns. They own an average of 6 each, which gives us the total of 300 million guns. I think even Chris will agree that having 6 guns is no more dangerous than having 2 or 3, so the country isn't as heavily overarmed as it might appear.
And even with only 1/6 of the population owning a gun and an even smaller proportion carrying a concealed firearm, the deterrent effect is very real so long as criminals do not know who is armed and who isn't.
As for increasing the already high proportion of US citizens in jail, well, the land of the free is already one of the most legalistic and punishment oriented countries in the world and any moves to increase that figure seem unlikely to have the desired result.
On this we can agree. We imprison the wrong people and do it in huge numbers. It contributes enormously to the crime problem. Because we have so many non-violent offenders in jail for insanely long terms as a result of things like mandatory sentencing laws and three strikes programs, the system ends up releasing violent criminals far too early because of overcrowding. The priorities are totally screwed up. We ought to have a third of the people in prison we do today, and they ought to be only the most dangerous criminals and they ought to be in there for a long time for the protection of society.
Dave
224 - Christopher Rose
Glad to see we're starting to agree Dave. I would however disagree that "having 6 guns is no more dangerous than having 2 or 3".
The reasoning behind that is that it is obviously harder to look after more kit, it's easier for people other than the registered owner to access the weapons and that having lots of them around helps foster an atmosphere in which it seems more socially acceptable.
225 - STM
I'd just like to ask here who, and Clavos among the pro-gun mob might qualify, have actually seen first-hand the dreadful effect of bullets on the human body (movies and docos don't count)? I know you might have, Chris, given your sqaddie background, which if true might also explain your aversion to firearms.
You know, guys, seriously, it's really, really awful stuff. It's not like copping a smack in the mouth. No one I know who has actually seen it first hand now has any affinity with firearms - and that includes some hardened veteran cops and soldiers. There is no attraction for me, either, I can tell you.