Real homeland security comes from giving citizens the ability to defend themselves and others, not from wiretaps and warrantless searches.
On Tuesday evening Sulejman Talovic headed to Trolley Square Mall like many other Salt Lake City teens. But instead of a credit card and iPod, he had a shotgun and .38 caliber pistol hidden under his black trenchcoat - plus a backpack full of ammunition.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Clavos
Clavos you are not white.
Hhmmm. My Swedish father and Irish mother might dispute that, Zedd.
27 - Zedd
I am teasing you Clavos. How would I know what you are?
28 - Dave Nalle
I dunno, Dave. Since the overwhelming majority of violent criminals in the United States are white of Judeo-Christian faith, I think maybe this kid was just making a preemptive strike to make himself feel safer (something I am confident you can related to).
Ok, first off, let me point out to Jeff and all the others who followed his fallacy that Talovic is as 'white' as any 'white' American, as are a great many muslims. Hell, there are plenty of blonde-haired, blue-eyed muslims in the Balkans.
I have no interest in making a 'preemptive strike'. I'm not at the point where I consider myself an enemy of society whose rage can only be expressed through random violence. Plus, suicidal attacks at shopping malls don't make you feel safer, they make you dead.
Dave
29 - Clavos
Well, it's OK, Zedd, 'cause my Swedish father and Irish mother wouldn't dispute it, anyway; they're dead.
30 - Dave Nalle
How dare you make such an issue of one European kid (white boy) who happens to be Muslim and attribute his loosing it to his faith.
I didn't attribute it to his faith. I merely suggested it could be a factor here and is certainly a factor we should be aware of in the future. This is a REAL problem and should be taken seriously, not blown off based on your presumption that all white people are crazy.
There are skin heads all over the globe who are reeking havoc and again
Hardly. Skinheads aren't a problem anywhere but England and Germany, and even in those places they are a tiny group and actual crimes associated with them are few and far between.
They are as much a facet of the same problem as radicalized muslim youths are. Just as a mullah with a website can motivate troubled muslim teens to violence, a white supremacist with a website can do the same thing with troubled white youth. For that matter a charismatic black panther leader could probably appeal to black teens with similar results. This isn't exclusively an issue of any race or religion, though it would be a safe bet to expect more problems with muslims than other groups.
verwhelming numbers of Muslims are attacked and made to feel horrible by Christians all of the time in Western countries. Somehow their protests are a sign of something to be feared.
Shooting people at a mall or planning to throw grenades into crowds is a hell of a lot more than just a 'sign of protest'.
And where, in America, is this terrible plague of Muslims being attacked by Christians or anyone else? Aside from a few incidents right after 9/11 there are no history of that kind of violence.
You have gone and lost your mind.
Along with the CIA and the FBI and the CSIS, all of whom are taking this potential problem very seriously. The truth is that domestic terrorism is a much more meaningful threat than terrorist attacks from outside the country, and this story is just a glimpse of part of the picture.
Dave
31 - Dave Nalle
And you don't think its a bit facetious to cite this as a "terror" example without any evidence that Muslim extremism has any ties to it? Why don't you tie in Columbine, The Matrix or video games (after all he wore a trench coat)? or post-traumatic stress disorder (after all he was from Srebenica) or his disaffected youth?
Deano, I did tie in most of those things. I have one reference to each of them except the video games and the Matrix. I had another Columbine reference, but it got edited out by an overzealous editor.
There are plenty of demonstrated examples for you to draw on if you wanted to support your post on radicalization of muslim youth. Pulling out this example and citing it seems to be deliberatively exploitative rather than informed.
I did mention multiple other examples in the article. This case was just an entry point to the larger topic.
Dave
32 - Dave Nalle
To follow your reasoning, we should then allow children to go to school with guns just in case another Christian white young man looses it and decides to shoot everyone up.
Sounds good to me. But seriously, two points on this.
First, two generations ago people I know in our town took their guns to school and put them in the gun rack in the classroom and there were no school shootings.
Second, what I and others would actually recommend, is encouraging teachers to be armed and trained. Read up on the school shooting in Pearl Alabama sometime.
Dave
33 - Zedd
Dave
First, two generations ago people I know in our town took their guns to school and put them in the gun rack in the classroom and there were no school shootings.
You are just silly. Why don't we have kids come to your kids school with guns.
Also, what if a teacher is Muslim? Now have you seen some of those teachers? Are you serious. I wouldn't trust anyone with a gun with my daughters in the room. Also, what would stop a student from stealing the guns. Come on Dave.
I mean whats with the gun thing. Were you picked on as a kid or something?
I volunteer in the inner city in the most dangerous part of Dallas. Remember Dallas was among the highest murder rates in the country, I'm sure its still up there. I don't walk around with a gun in my purse. People treat me the way that I treat them. I am not condescending in any way I am just another one of God's people working among them.
You would be "stop, dropping and rolling" and end up shot.
34 - Zedd
Dave
I did tie in most of those things
That is your MO. You will introduce a ridiculous idea and try to absolve yourself by lightly hitting on all of the points that you know people will object on. Your silly and bigoted notions still stand out, clearly, hence the response that you've gotten.
35 - Dave Nalle
So my MO is to be thorough? I can live with that.
As for 'silly and bigoted notions', I don't see where you get that from.
The responses have been fairly wacky, but most of the wackiness has little to do with the actual article.
I started out just to write a news piece about the mall attack in SLC, and on researching the subject I came on all these other cases and the CSIS study and the article about Officer Hammond, and realized it was a good starting off point for soemthing entirely different.
I think that if there was a mistake in the article, it was that I tried to address too many aspects of the subject, perhaps confusing some readers. I suppose I could have written three different articles. One on the fact that the media is totally downplaying or ignoring the fact that he's a muslim (which I did end up cutting), one on the manipulation of muslim teens by jihadist propagandists, and one on the value of an armed citizenry in dealing with this sort of problem.
IMO all of these issues sort of fit together, but clearly it was too much for some readers to take in all at once.
Dave
36 - Deano
This case was just an entry point to the larger topic.
Dave both the content of your post and its title have the predominent implication that the reason for the shootings was the religious background of the shooter - a fact that is manifestly not in evidence. I don't think you can legitimately blame the readers of the post for not agreeing with your leaps.
As for your follow-up comments on arming the teachers and the students - that just too asinine to even touch on.
37 - MCH
"Along with the CIA and the FBI and the CSIS, all of whom are taking this potential problem very seriously. The truth is that domestic terrorism is a much more meaningful threat than terrorist attacks from outside the country, and this story is just a glimpse of part of the picture."
- Dave Nalle
"I've seen figures similar to the ones Dave quotes."
- Vox Populi
38 - Zedd
Dave
Mr thorough, there HAVE been Muslim attacks, physical and emotional, police harassments and mosque bombings. Google it. You seem to forget that we all have the world's information at the tip of our fingers.
Your MO is to BS and hope you can get away with it.
39 - Dave Nalle
Mr thorough, there HAVE been Muslim attacks, physical and emotional, police harassments and mosque bombings. Google it. You seem to forget that we all have the world's information at the tip of our fingers.
You must have a different Google than I do. When I google 'mosque bombing' I get zillions of links to mosques being bombed in the middle east by one sect of Islam or another but nothing about Mosque bombings here in the US. I do remember hearing of one case right after 9/11, but there's certainly no pattern or real history of mosque bombings or attacks in the US or anywhere else in the west. You get similar results with any other form of persecution in the US. Occasional incidents, mostly right after 9/11, but generally minor and not much recently. In Europe there's more ongoing hostility, but that's not surprising because it's coming from both sides.
Look, this idea that there's a risk from young muslims of one kind or another in western nations isn't some weird thing I made up. It's well documented and has been the subject of serious research, and there are enough incidents out there to more than support concern. If you disagree with the idea, that's fine - but a hell of a lot of experts agree.
I direct you to the testimony of Claude Moniquet to the ESISC - the EU's inteligence think tank.
Or perhaps the concerns of the head of MI5 in England would be more to the point?
And I suppose you'll also blow off the concerns of the FBI, CIA and DHS about similar problems here in the US.
Please try to interface with the real world just a tiny bit, Zedd.
Dave
40 - Maria Gonzalez-Sanchez
Liberals and CAIR have complained that United States profiles Muslims, yet many of the attacks are of Muslims killing or assaulting Americans IN the United States.
A Muslims kills several people outside of FBI headquarters.
John Muhammad killed over 30 people.
An Iranian student tried to run over and kill students at a university in his SUV.
Now a Bosnian Muslim killed 5 innocent people at a mall in Utah.
Now, who do you think is doing all the attacks on innocent people?
It seems Muslims in America are the ones doing all the hate crimes in the United States.
Yet the Liberal media and CAIR want you believe it's the other way around. It seems that it is the many Muslims who are doing some of these hate crimes in the United States and not the other way around and no one has the courage to admit it.
41 - Maria Gonzalez-Sanchez
...it seems that the 5th Column and the "Enemy within" is true and CAIR is not addressing this, intead they are looking for the hate-crime boogeyman.
42 - Maria Gonzalez-Sanchez
...and the Columbine killers were not Christians, but were atheists.
So don't even try that B.S.
43 - Amrita
#42 " Maria Gonzalez-Sanchez
...and the Columbine killers were not Christians, but were atheists.
So don't even try that B.S.
If having Muslim parents automatically makes you a Muslim then having Christian parents makes you a Christian.
Why don't you try that B.S.?
44 - Apollo
In December, Chicago police arrested Derrick Shareef for plotting to carry out a hand grenade attack at a local mall. Fortunately, the person he approached for buying grenades turned out to be an FBI informant, and Shareef was arrested before he could do any harm.
One can understand handgun sales and hunting rifle sales too. but why on Earth sell assault rifles and Grenades to the general public? Do u guys even sell tanks and fighter planes across the counter??
bah! silly americans!
45 - Dave Nalle
Apollo, sales of grenades and assault rifles aren't legal in the US. That's how Shareef got caught - he was looking for an illegal connection to get them from and that alerted the FBI.
Dave
46 - Arch Conservative
Zedd.............You're the one claiming there have been uncountable attacks on muslims.
We don't have to google it.
The burden of proof is on you.
Instead of saying the same thing over and over can you either please provide some evidence or shut the fuck up?
47 - Zedd
Maria
How many killings are caused by Hispanics in the United States. The nerve.
The fact that you can count the incidents in a country of 300M people, says it is not an epidemic.
Now what is happening in the cities in Texas by Mexican youth is something to be concerned about. There are kidnappings, assassinations, robberies, Santa Maria murders, gang related killings. The incidences are multiplying by the day.
Should we be letting more in? Should we ALL be afraid of THEM?
Human beings have a tendancy to do harm to one another. It is ridiculous for anyone to wave a finger.
48 - Maurice
Dave - I get what you are saying and agree. When we go camping we are always heavily armed. I don't fear the 4 legged beasts so much as the 2 legged ones. Luckily my crazy white wife is a great shot and can cover my black ass.
I have never understood why law abiding citizens wouldn't want to be armed.
49 - Clavos
I have never understood why law abiding citizens wouldn't want to be armed.
Amen.
50 - Michael J. West
I have a number of reasons why I don't want to be armed. But then again, last night I drove my wife's car without insurance, then left the car standing in a hydrant zone while I ran inside for 90 seconds. So I'm not sure I qualify as a "law-abiding citizen."
51 - Christopher Rose
I've never understood why so many Americans want to be armed in the first place. If the USA is such a great place, why are so many people so afraid of their compatriots as to feel they need a gun? That isn't a country, it's the badlands...
52 - Maurice
CR #51
I worked in Switzerland for a while and was impressed with how peaceful and crime free it is. All citizens have guns. All airports have military walking the halls with automatic weapons. When I landed in Zurich a half track escorted our plane.
I've never felt so safe.
53 - Christopher Rose
Maurice: You must have missed all the many heroin addicts and homeless people and the violent crime they of necessity bring with them that is one of the less appealing things that Switzerland is well known for throughout Europe.
Do you actually have an answer to my question?
54 - Maurice
I worked for Motorola at the time. I was there for 2 months and had lots of time on my hands. I walked the streets every night and enjoyed the beauty and safety that Geneva offers. Your description of addicts and homeless people and violent crime does not fit what I saw everyday. If you were describing Italy (the armpit of Europe!) I would agree.
Ronald Reagan answered your question best when he said "..trust but verify". In other words yes there are many wonderful people in our nation but there are also people like Sulejman.
55 - Deano
Maurice, in Switzerland all able-bodied Swiss males aged between 18 and 30 (in some cases longer) must serve. So yes, virtually every home in Switzerland has a weapon (the FASS 90) at hand however.....everyone has proper weapons training. Everyone has been vetted and checked (about 1/3 or all males are excluded from military service for various reasons including pyschological stability). Usage of the weapons is strictly controlled by the local "canton" (the "neighborhood milita / military unit) and the inventory of ammunition is also checked.
So yes, everybody has access to weapons, but they don't a). wander about with their assault rifles at port arms while shopping and b). don't give the guns to every crazy yahoo that walks by.
Subsequently I'm not sure any comparision to the US free-wheeling attitude towards guns applies....
56 - Christopher Rose
But what I said is true of Switzerland, Maurice. Just because you didn't see it doesn't make it untrue. I suspect it's even more true of Italy, but it is a MUCH larger country, so it's no surprise.
So your argument now is that yes there are many wonderful people in the USA but because of the occasional rogue citizen everybody should carry weapons and not trust anyone until "verified"? That still sounds like a mighty fractious society to me.
57 - Maurice
Deano #55
you make good points and I agree. I think all who carry guns should have the proper trainning. Just like my wife and I.
58 - Maurice
CR #56
Which city did you see this?
59 - Christopher Rose
Maurice: I believe we're discussing the USA not Switzerland and I still await your answer...
60 - Nancy
My 2 cents worth: since the common hominin ancestor of us all was African, we are ALL of us "black", technically, to a greater or lesser degree depending on phenotype, which is notoriously aberrant. "Race" seems to matter less, actually, than economic/social status & cultural commonality: i.e. middle-income conservative persons will be comfortable with fellow m-icps regardless of color, uppers w/fellow uppers, etc. etc. Part of the problem may be that not only is this kid a traumatized refugee, but he was culturally traumatized as well, living in an environment far different from his 'native' status & background & he just couldn't adjust. However, there is the aspect that currently muslim culture seems to focus a great deal on terrorism, & has always traditionally upheld violence as a quick resort to adverse situations, despite PC claims to the contrary.
61 - Paul2
#21 very well said.
62 - Dave Nalle
I've never understood why so many Americans want to be armed in the first place. If the USA is such a great place, why are so many people so afraid of their compatriots as to feel they need a gun?
It's not because we're afraid that we want guns. We want guns because we have the right and because we know that an armed citizenry is the best way of making sure that society is peaceful and orderly. Each of us who has a gun is doing their part towards creating an environment which discourages crime. It's not fear or a desire to do violence which motivates us, but a desire to create a certain sort of society which is characterized by mutual respect and decency. The legal, licensed gun in the hands of a trained citizen is like a membership card in that society.
Dave
63 - Deano
a desire to create a certain sort of society which is characterized by mutual respect and decency
...and shoot-outs....lets not fergit shoot-outs! Yee-haw!
64 - Paul2
"society which is characterized by mutual respect and decency"
The United States is one of the most violent societies in the world and the one with the most liberal gun laws.
So much for decency and respect going around.
65 - Nancy
How do other countries 'control' gun sales successfully, that we don't? What are the differences? Do they require tighter licensing, or more training, or what?
66 - Clavos
Most of them just ban privately owned guns outright, Nancy.
67 - Paul2
In Europe guns are generally illegal and can't be sold or bought. Its as simple as that. And you dont have to be afraid that anyone else has a gun.
68 - Clavos
And you dont have to be afraid that anyone else has a gun.
Apparently you do. BBC News, published today
69 - zingzing
It's not because we're afraid that we want guns. "We want guns because we have the right and because we know that an armed citizenry is the best way of making sure that society is peaceful and orderly."
i have the right to eat my own toes. certainly don't want to. an armed citizenry does not equal peace and order. it represents a lot of people with guns.
"Each of us who has a gun is doing their part towards creating an environment which discourages crime."
except the thousands every day who use guns to commit crime, right?
"It's not fear or a desire to do violence which motivates us, but a desire to create a certain sort of society which is characterized by mutual respect and decency."
yeah. let's try that without guns to protect us from the "mutual respect and decency" we see every day.
"The legal, licensed gun in the hands of a trained citizen is like a membership card in that society."
heh. "can i see your membership card? ...please point your membership card the other way, sir."
you're a nut, dave.
70 - Paul2
Clavos, I didn't mean to imply that it means that there was no crime. But the figures in Europe are a tiny fraction compared to the US. You know that.
71 - Clavos
except the thousands every day who use guns to commit crime, right?
Come on, zing. If I'm bent on murdering my wife, will I do it with a tire iron because guns are illegal and I don't want to break the law?
And even where they're illegal, they're available.
72 - Paul2
Murder Rates
USA 6 per 100.000 people
EU 1,4 per 100.000 people
73 - Paul2
Of course, but the harder it is to obtain a gun, the more unlike it is that you can actually use one.
74 - Clavos
But, you can still get 'em in any relatively free society. Only the totalitarians are really successful at banning guns.
75 - Dave Nalle
The United States is one of the most violent societies in the world and the one with the most liberal gun laws.
Paul, I realize you hate and fear what you don't understand, but just making shit up doesn't make it true. The US is actually around the middle as far as rates of violence world wide, and aside from the nations at the very top of the list, the range for those in the middle is pretty close.
Ironically, Scotland where gun control is tight, is currently rated as the most violent counrty overall, and the leader in homicides is currently either Columbia or Honduras depending on which list you look at.
But the real thing to look at is overall crime and property crime. The US may pay a higher price in homicides, but our rate of property crime is MUCH lower than most nations. And because - even here - homicides are relatively rare, a higher homicide rate means only a few more deaths per year, while the corresponding lowering of the rate of property crime which is generally much more common, means many fewer actual property crimes.
So the tradeoff, which our armed society is largely respponsible for, is a few more homicides for lots and lots less property crime. And of course those homicides include a larger number of criminals killed during the commission of a crime than most nations.
I think that's a good thing in many ways.
Dave