Will Lebanon's memories of what it once was and could be again be enough to withstand the radicalizing efforts of Hezbollah?
I was born on the 'Arab Riviera', a term you may hear today applied to Dubai, but which was a very real and accurate description of Lebanon in the 1950s and early 1960s. When I was a kid living in Syria and Jordan, we would go to Lebanon to enjoy the beautiful beaches and stay in a nice hotel - older folks went there for the nightclubs and casinos and ski resorts with a view of the ocean. I was born there because Beirut had the best, most modern hospital in the area, and it was a reasonable drive from Damascus.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Howard Dratch
Excellent, Dave. Your memories are more real than mine which were only from magazine articles and stories from our Lebanese neighbors and friends in Tampa. All painted the picture of a rich and peaceful city on the sea. But in those days so was Sarajevo.
Extremism and religious zealots have not brought much good to the world over the past 50 or so years. The innocents suffer.
I wrote another comment but Movable Type kept telling me "Error 32: Banned word". Odd. Perhaps it doesn't like the word extremism. Neither do I.
27 - ss
Dave:
I can't argue that the modernist elements in Lebanon are much better than Hezbollah. But how can anyone know what the ethnic make-up of Lebanon is, since there hasn't been a census done since 1932?
Everyone has a stake in blaming outsiders for the disintegration of Lebanon. You blame the evil socialists, Brodie blames the evil jews... But, in fact, were'nt there calls for a new census in the years immediately prior to the bombings and retaliation, in the form of machine gunning a bus, that actually caused mass desertions from the already weak and sectarian army? Isn't this actually what started a civil war, that all these outsiders then took advantage of?
I know even most of the Lebanese prefer another story these days, but check it out, everything I've described happened, in the order I described it.
Maybe the problem the modernists had in Lebanon, for years, was that instead of making sure the majority in their country felt the positive effects of progress, they were more interested in maintaining an unfair advantage in the sectarian government. And they were always willing to take help from an outside power (France, among others) in order to do this.
When you look at at that way, Maronite neglect and deciet made the Shia easy pickings for the Revolutionary guard. And all of Lebanon still pays the price.
Just something to consider on the odd chance this little rebuilding project leads somewhere other than back to where you started.
28 - Dean
The war in Lebanon is not an island. It has to be considered in light of what has happened in the Middle East since the end of WWII.
It's something the United States doesn't want to address and that is the core problem.
29 - Dave Nalle
SS, the number of Shia in Lebanon prior to the Iranian influx was minuscule. Yes, it's a problem that there has been no census, but we do have historical information on who has left the country and who has entered the country and a pretty good idea who's there right now. Maybe not perfect, but then neither are censuses.
And are you seriously trying to say that all of Lebanon was not better off under a reasonably strong, pro-western secular government than it is now with a weak government and extremists running out of control?
Dave
30 - ss
No, Dave, I'm saying Lebanon got to the point where it has a weak government and extremists running out of control because the 'confessional' system of government was a civil war waiting to happen. I'm also making the arguement that the people under-represented, pre-Taif, weren't enjoying the fruits of the Riveria, and that made them easy prey for extremists with a message of blame and violence.
Espicially if the extremists managed to turn blame and violence into pride and survival, like the successful one's always do.
Not that Taif and the power sharing aren't as big a mess in their own way (a weak, paralyzed government totally reliant on outside help to deal with internal problems, for instance)
And now that extremism has a voice in Lebanon, it's going to be a little harder to remove it than the current justifications for destroying the infrastructure of Lebanon make it sound. (A country that already has problems with debt, by the way.)
But don't take my word for it, wait a year and see who's lobbing bombs into Israel this time (though probably it will still be Hezbollah), and the inevitable Israeli response that will come a few years latter, and the cries of the world, and blah blah blah...
Any change is going to have to come from inside the sects. Hopefully this is what Harari represents. Still, the Shia need to be able to handle their own problem (Hezbollah), or the merry-go-round just keeps spinning. This won't happen overnight, and there probably isn't anything we can do to make happen any faster. Though we may actually be able to slow it down by believing in quick fixes, like Taif, and like disarming Hezbollah (they'll just rearm).
I understand the Israelis have a right to defend themselves, but in this case I think the way they went about it bought them higher casualties in the short run, and probably the long run too, if they actaully wind up getting new volunteers, and maybe even new sponsors for Hezbollah when it starts to buy new mortars, rockets, or whatever they decide to use to skirt NATO and the Israelis in a year, or two, or less.
31 - ss
Just re read my original comment. What I meant to convey was I couldn't argue against the modernist element being better for Lebanon, though if you read the comment above, you'll see where I think the idea that you can just make them dominant and everything will naturally solve itself has it's flaws.
32 - Diz
Question of the day:
What would muslims do with themselves if every other religion was wiped off the face of the earth?
Answer:
33 - Dave Nalle
SS, I agree to some extent. The composition of the country has changed enough that the kind of natural western-leaning society you had in the 60s would be much more difficult to establish. It might have to apply to just part of the country or be imposed by a stronger regime. Over time I think that national prosperity would overcome the backwardness of some of the newer elements in the country. The tragedy of Lebanon is that their best and brightest of the previous generation all left the country. Look at a list of prominent Arab-Americans sometime. They're overwhelmingly Lebanese. That talent-drain is part of the problem they face. They lost their natural leaders and intellectuals and gained poor palestinians and fanatical Iranians instead. Not a good trade.
Dave
34 - Martin Lav
Not just that. They need to be removed. The Palestinians need to be sent to Jordan and the Iranians need to be sent back to Iran.
Dave,
Good article, but you don't include Lebanon in the equation of the Palestinian problem. Israel didn't drive them out, they left. Lebanon didn't accept them, they left them on the border as refugee's.
You say of these Palestinians:
many largely poor, unskilled, and angry refugees
and you sound fairly racist in your description. Why did Lebanon welcome them in and give them jobs at the Rivera cleaning pools, landscaping, maid service, bus boys and the like, so Lebanon could have maintained their paradise in fine Western Style? I mean you sanction the same thing in America with the poor displaced immigrants of the world.
35 - Dave Nalle
The Palestinians in Lebanon originally mostly came from Jordan, not Israel. They were forced out when Israel took away land which had been part of Jordan. And while they may have been accepted because of a need for labor in Lebanon, they were taken under durress - basically forced on Lebanon by the UN. When the Lebanese economy went south and then they had a civil war and the Syrian invasion those Palestinians who were on the bottom of the economic ladder ended up the worst off.
And it's not racist to say that people are poor, unskilled and angry refugees when they are. Being poor or unskilled or driven from your home is not YOUR fault, and it isn't a racial characteristic. It's something you can overcome, but it's also something that shouldn't be forced on you.
Dave
36 - Martin Lav
I say defend the same thing in America. You don't have the same position for many largely poor, unskilled Mexicans poring into our country. Why not?
Besides, you make Lebanon sound like such an innocent victim of circumstances and not at all complicit in the conditions surrounding the entire region. Why don't they give the Palestinians land and a home? Citizenship? Grant them Amnesty.....
37 - Dean
Dave says:
"The Palestinians in Lebanon originally mostly came from Jordan, not Israel."
That is only half the story.
The Palestinians driven out of Jordan were first driven out of Israel.
38 - Abdallah
Dean, Remember, Jordan and Egypt occupied Palestine for about 20 years.
you should also look this up. No one can afford to point fingers.
After the war, a few Arab leaders tried to present the Palestinian exodus as a victory by claiming to have planned it. None of them provided any evidence for this claim. An oft-quoted example from the untranslated Arabic memoirs of Khalid al-`Azm , who was prime minister of Syria from December 17, 1949 to March 30, 1949 (a period after most of the exodus was complete), has a different explanation, however. In his memoirs, Al-Azm listed a number of reasons for the Arab defeat in an attack on the Arab leaders, including his own predecessor, Jamil Mardam Bey:
Fifth: the Arab governments' invitation to the people of Palestine to flee from it and seek refuge in adjacent Arab countries, after terror had spread among their ranks in the wake of the Deir Yassin event. This mass flight has benefited the Jews and the situation stablized in their favor without effort.
...
Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homeland, while it is we who constrained them to leave it. Between the invitation extended to the refugees and the request to the United Nations to decide upon their return, there elapsed only a few months.
-Al-`Azm, Mudhakarat (al-Dar al Muttahida lil-Nashr, Beirut, 1972), Volume I, pp 386-7.
39 - Martin Lav
The point being is that nobody wanted the Palestinians. No one. And now all of a sudden they're held up as oppressed and displaced people by the Jews. Not all true by any means, but every country seems to have it's smoking guns.
40 - Dean
The exodus of Palestinians from their homes in Palestine during the late 1940's is not unlike the exodus of the Jews from their homes in Europe during the late 1930's.
41 - Dave Nalle
Excellent historical input, Abdallah. Puts the situation in perspective even if it doesn't do much to solve the problems which exist today.
Dave
42 - Dave Nalle
I say defend the same thing in America. You don't have the same position for many largely poor, unskilled Mexicans poring into our country. Why not?
Because they are not displaced persons, they mostly come here for the short term, and there are jobs available for them. They work, obey the law and go back to Mexico. They certainly don't live in refugee camps and suck up international aid money.
Besides, you make Lebanon sound like such an innocent victim of circumstances and not at all complicit in the conditions surrounding the entire region. Why don't they give the Palestinians land and a home? Citizenship? Grant them Amnesty.....
Are you not even a little bit familiar with Lebanon? What land? The country's smaller than Vermont. And what would they do with the land they got? The soil was farmed out 3,000 years ago. And there's nothing to grant them amnesty for. They're not criminals. They just need a decent place to live where they can support themselves. The truth is that most of the Palestinians would probably be best off under Israeli rule if they could get rid of Hamas and help create a situation where they could be integrated into Israeli society. Some of them have done it, you know. There have been Arabs in the Knesset since it was formed, and there is a population of Arabs who live within Israel as citizens - some of them of Palestinian extraction. Many of them are Christian, but by no means all. Israel would have extended those same rights to a lot of the Palestinians had they been more cooperative and less eager to be used as pawns by hostile Arab states.
Dave
43 - troll
for more info on the period of Arab flight that Abdallah refers to in #38 see here
44 - gazelle
dave:
nice article. I have heard of what beirut used to be. and i am sad to see it destroyed again by none other than israel. Thanks for "sympathizing" with the lebanese while israel budgeons it to oblivion once again. Ironicaly this is positively affecting hezbollah!
Some points :
* the shia a have been in there for a while:
Lebanon's Shia"
they are no newcomers from iran. iran sent people to fight israel in the early eighties to fight against israel, but the numbers are insignificant. there's an interesting point about tolerance and hezbollah's independant approach, as can be expected in multi-religious states like lebanon and syria.
* the christians mostly maronites are the wealthy of lebanon. they left lebanon because they could, leaving behind the poor, especially the shia, to rot. the emergence of hezbollah, in the shadow of israel, was to be expected.
I support freedom/s for lebanon, and I also support hezbollah against israel.
best
45 - gazelle
#38, 39, 41
I think abdallahs overall point is that the palestinians are also oppressed by israel as they were mistreated by the arab states (or worse?)
theres a reality on the ground and there is the reality of the state actors (arab or jew) colored by their respective agendas.
i would optimistically expect many heads to roll still. With dave though i agree there is no solution in this particlar discussio. but I also see hamas and hezbollah as genuine voices of the majority of the displaced and affected people, some opposition nothwithstanding, for whom no one is willing to stand up selflessly.
best
46 - Martin Lav
Because they are not displaced persons, they mostly come here for the short term, and there are jobs available for them. They work, obey the law and go back to Mexico. They certainly don't live in refugee camps and suck up international aid money.
The Palestinians are not displaced either, they could freely live in Israel couldn't they? And BS they come here for the short term, that is just not correct.
A tiny piece of land that's bigger than Israel as well. My point is have them hire, house and aid the Palestinians as you want America to do for the Mexicans.
Double standard.....
47 - ss
If the guys fixing our air conditioner at work don't get their shit together soon the Palestinians can have my cubicle.
Just doin' my part.
48 - Dave Nalle
Wow, Gazelle. That's a pretty twisted and biased source you cite there. The fact is that the Shia were always a small minority in Iraq and they chose to side with the bad guys in the civil war and have suffered as a result. And the numbers of Iranians who have moved in there to help out is in the thousands, so it's not insignificant. They also brought weapons and money with them.
How you can support the freedom of Lebanon and support Hezbollah at the same time is a mystery to me, since as long as Hezbollah exists Lebanon will be under constant threat from both Hezbollah and Israel.
Dave
49 - Dean
Dave says:
"Wow, Gazelle... How you can support the freedom of Lebanon and support Hezbollah at the same time is a mystery to me..."
Gazelle is simply reiterating what the Lebanese PM is saying.
Lebanon's Prime Minister Fouad Siniora has publicly thanked, and praised, Hezbollah for its stance on Israel.
50 - Dave Nalle
Yes, we've already established the Siniora is an idiot and an appeaser.
Dave
51 - Dean
Who is "we"?
52 - troll
Gazelle -
HizbAllah advocates the destruction of Israel...you 'support HizbAllah against Israel'...you advocate the desruction of Israel
or did I miss something - ?
where should the camps for the 'tranfered' Israelis by built - ?
troll
53 - Dave Nalle
Ooh, let's bring all the displaced Israelis to America when Israel falls. We need more Jews.
And can you imagine what a mess the new 'palestinian' state would be that replaces Israel? How much will the UN and the US have to spend to keep it peaceful and the people fed?
Dave
54 - Dean
"How much will the UN and the US have to spend to keep it peaceful and the people fed?"
A helluva lot less than Iraq.
55 - Dave Nalle
I wouln't bet on it, Dean. Religious and ethnic based civil war would likely break out in the new palestine as well.
Dave
56 - Dean
If we expect to control 24 million Iraqis who have three divergent religious factions, it would seem to be a simple matter to control two million Palestinians who for decades, have called on the US to enter their land.
57 - Lowell
Dave,
Excellent article, we lived in
Saudi Arabia during the early 60's and vacationed in Lebanon it is a sad day for us to see what is happening today. The U.S. foreign policy over the last 50 odd years is as much to blame for what is happening in the Middle East today as anything. I don't know what the answer is, but as long as we keep supporting the Israel war machine to the tune of 3 billion plus annually I don't see a solution. Back to the positive an excellent article.
58 - Dean
The answer to the Middle East conflict is so simple it is difficult not to see it.
59 - GK
Excellent article Dave...
A couple of comments:
Hizbollah...a resistance group??? Resisting what and who???? I used to live in southern Lebanon and since 2000 I don’t recall Israel messing with Lebanon unless they were provoked by Hizbollah... same as it happened this time... and I do agree that we were a few steps away from making peace (becoming allies) with Israel...Hizbollah's nightmare come true. Hizbollah should never use ISLAM as its cause of war...this doesn’t exist. Religion is our most sensitive subject, and once someone tells us that we are threatened, we will react to it... it never calls us to kill anyone...
As for the Palestinians, we should not forget that many of them were not kicked out of their homes 1948, most of them sold their lands and I know that from many Palestinians in Lebanon.
I thank Israel for what they are doing... they are not destroying Lebanon... they are giving us an opportunity to rebuild the the shanty towns they have destroyed, the beautiful part of Lebanon is intact... after they finish with Hizbollah, we will build l€ebanon again... with better buildings and better roads.
I'm sorry I have to be blunt with my comments, but this is reality and we should accept it as is.
60 - Martin Lav
Build an artificial Island in the middle of the Mediteranian?
61 - Lumpy
Hezbollah is a resistence group in the same sense that a guu who shoots u in the head is a brain surgeon.
62 - RS
From the article by Dave, it appears that Hesbollah radicals,the by-product of the past or the presence, is the pain in the neck of Lebanon. Is Israel doing the right way to get rid of them but,certainly not at the expense and the suffering of the lebanese people.
Lebanese government and the people should stand firm to tackle the issue by themselves.
63 - Dave Nalle
Martin, perhaps we could relocate all the jews to Sealand.
Dave
64 - Dean
It's time to inject a little humor in all this.
Today, among other funny statements, Shimon Peres was outside the White House saying that all Israel wants is for all Middle East countries to obey international law.
65 - chancelucky
Dave,
I liked this article a lot and you had me all the way to the conclusion. It seems to me that it would still be up to Lebanon to invite another country in to "take care of their problem".
As someone above pointed out, the creation of all the refugees in 1967 is not a small matter and yes it clearly changed Lebanon (I'm no expert) for the worse, but those refugees have some real issues that need to be addressed. Where do they live and where do they have citizenship being one of them.
66 - gazelle
#48 israel came first 1948, hezbollah in 1982 to resist the israeli illegal occupation. it did not exist before but members of amal like nasrullah split from Nabi Berry's Amal party.
you say my source is incorrect. maybe. where is yours which says thousands moved to lebanon ? you need one too.
when the irani revolution 1979 happened they wanted to export it in their revolutionary fervor to the shia in lebanon, and to oppose israel they sent a band of troops (numbers?) with support. But as the revolutionary fervour cooled, they could not do this anymore overtly and had to be more diplomatic, when they opened up to the international community especially with rafsanjani and m.....? with the US selling arms to both iran and iraq durinthe iran-iraq war !
#49 Dean is correct that Siniora has stated his support for hezbollah. i have stated elsewhere too that while i may not be hezbollah they are absolutely justified in defending their lebanese land from foreign attack. This is for the defense and liberation of lebanon from the military and political domination and ambitions of israel, especially given that syria was eased out earlier. defending on sovereign soil is sacred for any patriot.
the same reason why so many normal iraqis and afghans are fighting the foreign invaders.
best
67 - Dave Nalle
You can verify all my facts at Wikipedia, which is a neutral source, Gazelle.
And your exuses for Iran and Hezbollah are just that - excuses for murderers and invaders in Lebanon.
They are not fighting FOR Lebanon, they are fighting AGAINST Israel. To suggest otherwise is pure deception.
Dave
68 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Dave,
I've steered clear of arguing on this piece because you are talking from experience. You've lived in Lebanon, Syria and Jordan and I have not. For the most part, I agree with what you've written here. I honestly feel bad that Lebanon has gotten crapped on by HizbAllah, Syria, Iran and the Arab refugees who fled Israel.
I feel terrible that it is Lebanon and not Syria that is being blasted to bits. Even though HizbAllah is part of the government there, most Lebanese do not deserve having their country being destroyed.
But I will note one point, one that I do not think I saw in your article. Lebanon has made it impossible for an Arab refugee from Israel to obtain Lebanese citizenship, or education or even a job. IMHO, this policy has led to the destruction of the country and finally its takeover by Syria and Iran.
69 - Dave Nalle
ut I will note one point, one that I do not think I saw in your article. Lebanon has made it impossible for an Arab refugee from Israel to obtain Lebanese citizenship, or education or even a job. IMHO, this policy has led to the destruction of the country and finally its takeover by Syria and Iran.
I agree that it's a troublesome policy, but it's entirely understandable. Lebanon is a small country and relatively heavily populated compared to most Arab nations. They don't have the space or the resources to absorb a lot of immigrants, and frankly they probably didn't much like the idea of lowering their standard of living by letting in too many poor Arabs from other nations. Then, with the rise of terrorism, they certainly didn't want to let potential troublemakers in. Their secular values would not sit well with a population of fundamentalist immigrants. By barring immigration they were attempting to cling the past I talked about in the article.
Dave
70 - SFC SKI
Gazelle #66 "hezbollah in 1982 to resist the israeli illegal occupation. " Care to comment on why Israel invaded in 1982?
71 - gazelle
#70 SFC SKI
I fail to see the point of your question, but i'd venture to say that it goes back to human cost of the creation of new israel in '48.
from wikipedia 1982 Invasion of Lebanon
best
+ + + +
Reasons for the war (section)
Starting in 1968, Palestinian groups in southern Lebanon raided northern Israel, and bombarded Israeli towns with katyusha rockets.
Secondly, Israel argued it could derail the establishment of a base of operations for the PLO, from which they could mount assaults in the international arena such as the 26 December 1968 attack on an Israeli civilian airliner in Athens.
Another reason given for the invasion was as an intervention in the ongoing Lebanese Civil War to counteract Syrian influences in Lebanon, and possibly enable the establishment of a stable Lebanese leadership from the Christian population, which would strengthen a central Lebanese Army, restore security and agree to diplomatic relations with Israel.
According to former chief of Israeli military intelligence Yehoshafat Harkabi, the 1982 invasion of Lebanon was accompanied by deceit at the highest political levels. Harkarbi cites misleading statements to the cabinet by Ariel Sharon and Begin, inaccurate announcements by Israel's military spokesmen and the Likud government's gross exaggeration of terrorist acts conducted from Lebanon. Defence Minister Rabin admitted in the Knesset[citation needed] that during the eleven-month ceasefire preceding the war, Israel's northern settlements had been attacked only twice and that during this period Israel had suffered a total of two killed and six wounded from terrorist attacks. These attacks had been preceded by Israeli strikes in response to the planting of a bomb on a bus and the attack on Shlomo Argov.
72 - gazelle
Dave :
It is sufficiently clear from the foregoing that you support the rich minority of partying christians, against the poor majority of disciplined muslims. They tolerate each other very well.
i cannot be sympathetic to your calls about propaganda.
now all lebanon is against israel including walid jumblatt (druze), Gen. Aoun (christian) who has been allied with hezbollah, and Amal. they also all agree that palestine should be liberated with jerusalem as its capital. there are also interstring cross alliances, which will only be visible if you look at the nitty gritty.
See Parliamentary Elections & New Government (Lebanon in Wikipedia)
best
73 - gazelle
#67 dave
well you say wikipedia will verify all your 'facts', but lets have a wikipedia url for iranis in lebanon, please. unless you made it up!
best
74 - gazelle
Hezbollah in Opinion Polls
[from wikipedia Introduction para 5]
Throughout most of the Arab and Muslim worlds, Hezbollah is highly regarded as a legitimate resistance movement.[19] According to a poll released by the "Beirut Center for Research and Information" on 26 July during 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, 87 percent of Lebanese support Hezbollah's fight with Israel, a rise of 29 percent on a similar poll conducted in February. More striking, however, is the level of support for Hezbollah's resistance from non-Shiite communities. Eighty percent of Christians polled supported Hezbollah along with 80 percent of Druze and 89 percent of Sunnis.[20], while according to another poll, from July 2005, 74 percent of Christian Lebanese viewed Hezbollah as a resistance organization.[21] The Lebanese government confirmed it as a legitimate resistance against occupation.[22][23]
75 - GK
# 74,
The poll that was conducted by the "Beirut center for Research and Information" is very unreliable for several reasons:
1. It was conducted to 800 people only... In standards of research, “public opinion", should represent more than half the population. If you want the opinion of all 4 religions / sects, you have only considered the opinion of 200 people from each group (considering you selected your people equally...)
2. The research was only conducted in ONE area of displaced people only... Lebanon is composed of 6 districts (Mouhavazat)...
3. The research was done to DISPLACED people only... making it biased. It did not consider the opinion of those who were still at their homes (Mount Lebanon for example)... A person directly affected by an incident immediately biases the results.
4. If you clearly read the question of the questionnaire conducted regarding your point, it asks if you "support the confrontation carried out by the resistance..." and not if you support the resistance group itself. This doesnt really mean that you support Hizbollah themselves, nor their belief, nor their ideas...
N.B. Click on the [20] and access the link: it will take you to a Daily Star article which does not even mention the exact figures you have there. The only time Christians are mentioned is: "Christian support for capture operations rose from 48 percent to 55 percent, due likely to the Free Patriotic Movement's memorandum of understanding signed with Hizbullah".
Regards,
GK