If the media, in the coming days, provides PROOF that it's a piece of paper of some sort, you will promise not to vote for Kerry.
And if the media, in the coming days, provides PROOF that Bush was wearing an earpiece that fed him lines from Karl Rove, I will promise not to vote for Bush.
Oh, please send me these TIVO pics via e-mail. I wanna see what you are seeing...
28 -
Elembis
Oct 04, 2004 at 1:58 am
I've seen the hi-res shot several times now, and it appears that Kerry took out a piece of paper with a pen clipped onto it. He held the cap steady with his left as he pulled the pen and paper away firmly with his right. (The accompanying jerking motion is obvious in the shots from the main cameras.) After continuing to nod and smile, he laid the cap and paper down.
This is puzzling to me, simply because I can't think of a more idiotic way to cheat. If it was a cheat sheet, why didn't he lay it down immediately? He could've had a pen at the podium already, so the pen-uncapping motion was a horrible idea if he had cheating in mind.
My guess is that Kerry clips his pens onto rigid 3x5" cards rather than onto his pocket. If the effort he puts into his looks is extended toward his clothes, this would make a lot of sense. It's not something that I've heard of before, but I think wearing down the edge of a 3x5" card is a better idea than wearing down the edge of your coat pocket.
(BTW: I don't like either candidate much, but I prefer Kerry, and am glad he won the debate.)
Honey, I don't believe the crap about Bush and the earpiece. [but it would explain a lot!]
My vote is my own and I don't barter it away on web sites. And neither should you.
I wish I could send the TiVo recording. I don't think I can get it to my PC, though. I'd have to do it the old fashioned way -- videotape. And who has any of those or a working VCR?
What you see on a 27-inch TV is much different from what you see on the PC, even at full-screen. The resolution is sharper at full-size, for one. I've watched it in slow-motion and regular speed. Slow motion doesn't actually help you see what's in his hand. When you watch it at regular speed, you just see him reach into his pocket, take something smallish out, move his hands a little [to uncap the pen], then make the move to put the cap of the pen on the back end of it, and finally start writing as the camera switches to the front view. That's it. No paper/note card looking items in his hand at all. No time to do something with some papers and then start with the pen. Nothing sneaky or subversive.
In fact, if Jim Lehrer had been looking at Kerry instead of Bush at that moment, he would have seen most of the motion of Kerry's reach into or out of his pocket. As it was, the cameras saw it, as did the people in the audience as Kerry turned to face forward.
Here's more conspiracy theorizing in the comments at LGF. Quoting Kerry's response to the opening question:
All of these, and especially homeland security, which we'll talk about a little bit later.
How does he know what is coming up later in the debate unless he had a list of questions prior to the event????!!!
Uh, dumbass, because the subjects of the debate were foreign policy and HOMELAND SECURITY.
I'm telling ya, that Kerry is a crafty one, predicting that he will face questions about homeland security in a debate on ... homeland security. Hey, he must have had Jim Lehrer's questions ahead of time!
31 -
Eric Olsen
Oct 04, 2004 at 8:44 am
commenters: when providing a URL for a link, please make the URL an actual HTML link so that the page doesn't get, to put it politely, all fucked up. Thanks
32 -
Eric Olsen
Oct 04, 2004 at 8:45 am
I cheated when I was watching - I stuck post-its up on the TV to remind me which candidate was which
Gosh I wonder what issue the campaign should turn on?
I've been avoiding commenting on most of the political blather thus far, having watched the Dem's scream about how Bush evaded service and the GOP villify Kerry as a SwiftBoat commander. All I can say is, for God's sake GROW UP ALREADY.
Are you kindergartners? The level of content and context in this election are about close to pure vapour as can ever be imagined. The media coverage is horrifically bad, the attention to issues, nuance and historical context almost completely lacking, and the partisan bellowing over trivia is overshadowing any type of useful commentary.
You want to hand Kerry his head? - fine, DO IT, but pick something of substance or importance.
You want to rip Bush a new one? Be my guest but frame a real position on an issue of importance (it's not like there is a lack of issues in this election!).
Please, try to delve a little bit below the superficial bulls**t.
I think what everyone should be aware of is the fact that the candidates were not allowed to have any personal writing utensils or notes during the debate. They were supposed to use the pens and note paper provided ONLY.
So, even if it is a pen that Kerry pulls out, it shows his lack of concern over following the debate rules that HE agreed to.
I guess you could say that he voted FOR the no pens and notes rule before he voted AGAINST it. ;-)
David
39 -
Eric Olsen
Oct 04, 2004 at 11:28 am
I also heard that the cameras (even CSPAN!) conspiratorially excluded the hoses trailing behind each candidate, obscuring the fact that each was receiving an inspirational enema
RJ, you're making the Pyrenees out of an anthill. You sound like Nixon. The first thing he said after he lost to Kennedy was "The bastard used notes!" Nixon lost, of course, because of Nixon. The same goes for Bush. Dry up already.
I also heard that the cameras (even CSPAN!) conspiratorially excluded the hoses trailing behind each candidate, obscuring the fact that each was receiving an inspirational enema
kerry kicked that pussy lipped bush ass all over the place. bush moaned and groaned like a four year old girl getting a tooth pulled. that is because he has no brains, no balls, no penis. he is richard simmons in a suit. he is the lowest form of scum on the planet earth.
my urine could beat george w. pussy bush in a debate.
jack e. jett
recent graduate of the
right wing school for
punditry
I just thought of something. Isn't "pussy lipped" redundant?
45 -
Eric Olsen
Oct 04, 2004 at 6:46 pm
what's worse, pussy lipped or pussy whipped?
46 -
boomcrashbaby
Oct 04, 2004 at 7:04 pm
I would have to say lipped.
Pussy whipped makes me think of Julie Newmar or 'When Ann-Margaret Attacks' (the all new Fox show hosted by Sheriff John Bunnell).
Pussy lipped makes me think of a pretty frightening botox explosion.
47 -
Eric Olsen
Oct 04, 2004 at 7:18 pm
you know, back in the days before travel and stuff, the sailors would come back from the mysterious orient saying the Asian women were horizontal as opposed to vertical - I am not making this up
The rampant cheating in this debate shows he is a communist and probably worships the devil. Thank god, you convinced me. If a man should use his own pen during a debate where he was asked to use a different pen, the next thing he will be doing is making statements like "the Taliban is no longer in existence" and other kinds of dishonesty.
I would be so ashamed if the candidate I was supporting started lying like that. Good bye Mr. Kerry!!
I'm voting for a man who "stays the course" when it comes to debate rules about pens. Thats the man I want to be starting wars that my son will be drafted to clean up 5 years from now...
51 -
Eric Olsen
Oct 05, 2004 at 8:09 am
yes, but more importantly, any thoughts on Asian women?
52 -
Shark
Oct 05, 2004 at 8:52 am
RJ,
Your boy lost fair and square.
...AND YOU ARE A G.O.P GIRLIE MAN!!!
Buck up.
Quit Whining.
Here's a Kleenex.
53 -
Dawn
Oct 05, 2004 at 10:43 am
yes, but more importantly, any thoughts on Asian women?
Yes, it seems as though men are inordinantly attracted to them regardless of their individual attractiveness.
Kerry pulled out his favorite pin for crying out loud. Is this all the Bushies have? Also, if you watch Bush during this same clip, he is unfolding a piece of paper. Although it is not clear where he took this paper from, it is doubtful that it came from his podium unless the debate moderators folded it up for him, which really doesn't make sense.
Bush has lied about Iraq by leading us to believe that Iraq had ties to 9/11, which has been disproven by the 9/11 bipartisan commission. Bush also misled us about Iraq by presenting the minority view about Iraq's WMD capabilities and presenting it as though it was the consensus view.
Also, Bush had a chance to get Zarqawi in 2002, but he ignored the advice of military experts and failed to do so because he was afraid that it would undermine his case for invading Iraq.
Read this website for more details:
www.restoreamerica.blogspot.com
55 -
Eric Olsen
Oct 05, 2004 at 3:03 pm
And here I wasn't even aware that Kerry had a "favorite pin for crying"
it just shows how badly Bush was beaten (fair & square) that the right is seizing on this. What are they going to do, sue Kerry?
And it shows how Drudge really needs to be monitored. He flaks way too much nonsense like that which unfortunately does get picked up (see all the Kerry orange comments).
RJ, will you be posting a retraction any time soon? Will you take back your words saying that Kerry cheated and has a lack of moral ethics? If you do, will you make it a separate post titled, "Kerry Didn't Cheat!"?
Or maybe you think a pen gave him an unfair advantage over Bush.
It's a pen. Even Brit Hume of Fox News says so. Check out this photo on the Daily Recycler's blog, which was one of the first blogs to bang the gong about the so-called cheat sheet. The image is from Fox News.
"RJ, will you be posting a retraction any time soon? Will you take back your words saying that Kerry cheated and has a lack of moral ethics?"
Why would I do that? He clearly broke the rules of the debate, as you yourself admitted. Breaking the rules = CHEATING. And CHEATING is indicative of a lack of ethics.
"Or maybe you think a pen gave him an unfair advantage over Bush."
For all we know, the pen was engraved with shorthand notes. We'll never know of course, because no one but Kerry (and perhaps his minions) inspected the pen before the debate. Which is exactly why the rules (the ones that Kerry clearly broke, remember) were put in place to begin with.
I will retract my belief that the pen was a piece of folded paper. You were right, and I was wrong. Of course, from all the images I had seen up until now, it DID look a whole helluva lot more like a piece of paper than a pen. But when I'm wrong, I admit it. And I was wrong about that.
Now, MOST LIKELY, Kerry broke the rules (i. e. cheated) simply because he wanted to bring his "lucky pen" or some such to the debate with him. Most likely there was no piece of paper with notes hidden inside the pen cap. Most likely.
But we'll never know for sure, because Kerry broke the debate rules. Which is, you know, cheating.
ME: Of course, from all the images I had seen up until now, it DID look a whole helluva lot more like a piece of paper than a pen.
BHW: That's because you were looking at right-wing sites.
Are you suggesting that the "right-wing sites" I was viewing altered the images? If so, please provide proof...
ME: Most likely there was no piece of paper with notes hidden inside the pen cap. Most likely.
BHW: This is just so sad I don't have words for it.
Prove that there wasn't a Trojan Horse in the pen.
You can't, can you?
That's exactly why Kerry's behavior was prohibited. In other words, he broke the rules. In other words, he CHEATED.
Now, AGAIN, for those who are unable/unwilling to read for context, I already stated that he PROBABLY did not use the illicit pen for the purposes of cheating. But I don't know this, and neither do you.
ALSO, I have said that Kerry likely would have won the debate no matter what, because Bush is a shitty debater, while Kerry is a master-debater.
My point about the right-wing sites was two-fold: a) you saw what they told you to see and what you wanted to believe, and b) they may have altered the images.
Hey, let's take a poll. What's more likely:
a) that the anti-Kerry weblog brigade altered the images from the debate
or
b) Kerry smuggled in an engraved pen or a minute cheat sheet to the debate, which he then proceeded to read and/or unfold without anyone noticing and with his 60-plus-year-old eyes and no reading glasses
"My point about the right-wing sites was two-fold: a) you saw what they told you to see and what you wanted to believe"
"Told me to see"? I saw unedited video feed of the debate from several sites, not all of them "right-wing." I do not report things that I am "told" to see. I report what I DO see.
From the original video footage, it looked a whole lot more like a pen than a piece of paper.
Since it has now become obvious that Kerry broke the rules with a pen, instead of paper, I have ceded the point.
What more do you want? Human sacrifice?
"and b) they may have altered the images."
Boston.com? Are they "right-wing"? Do you have any evidence to back that up? Any?
"Hey, let's take a poll. What's more likely:
a) that the anti-Kerry weblog brigade altered the images from the debate
or
b) Kerry smuggled in an engraved pen or a minute cheat sheet to the debate, which he then proceeded to read and/or unfold without anyone noticing and with his 60-plus-year-old eyes and no reading glasses"
It appears neither happened. Though either is possible.
I have no proof (how c ould I?) of my hypothesis. You have no proof (it would be easy to find) of yours.
We are at an impasse.
Kerry won the debate. He almost certainly would have, cheating or no cheating.
Kerry cheated by bringing a pen into the debate, not a piece of folded paper. Point to you. (I really need to get TIVO sometime...)
RJ, you saw what you wanted to see. And you published a post saying that Kerry **needed to cheat to win**. That's what you said in your post, and I'm just asking you how the pen helped him win, or conversely, how he would have lost if he hadn't had the pen. You directly linked the rules violation with the debate victory. But now I see you acknowledge that there was no link between the two [although you still toss in "almost certainly"].
Most people don't see a mere broken rule as cheating. The breaking of the rule has to give the rule breaker an advantage for it to be considered meaningful and therefore cheating. Sometimes, people just make mistakes. You may be able to point to a dictionary definition that supports your point, but real people aren't going to get worked up about the pen when it had no impact on the debate and when global terrorism is on the radar. If the outcome of the debate would be the same without the pen, who cares?
The right-wing blogs have now rendered utterly pointless the legitimate, but minor, story that Kerry violated the debate agreement by bringing his pen to the podium.
To boot, they made Bush supporters look desperate to find something, ANYthing to discredit Kerry's performance in the debate. That's how badly he beat Bush that night, and that's how a-scared they are Bush will lose in November in Kerry's momentum keeps up.
I should add that some leftie blogs are now giving Bush the cheater treatment by suggesting *he* brought a cheat sheet to the podium.
I think they're idiots, too, for doing exactly what the righty blogs did: parsing only a small portion of the video on their PCs, rather than watching the entire shot on a TV at actual speed.
They're claiming that when Bush walked up to his podium, he reached into his pocket, took out a piece of paper, and unfolded it onto the podium. They're basing this accusation on a brief shot of Bush from behind, after he arrived at his podium.
But I've watched the entire shot from the time Bush and Kerry shake hands to the time Bush gets to his podium, and I never saw him reach into any pockets. And his hands were basically visible the entire time.
In fact, when they say Bush is unfolding a piece of paper, I think he's actually just doing what Kerry was doing: getting his pen ready.
This is the sad state of politics in America, and, honestly, one of the down sides of blogging. Not that our "legitimate" media pals have been all that professional lately, but stuff like this, these unfounded accusations based on junior CSI wannabees sitting at their PCs, will be the undoing of the political blogs.
68 -
Eric Olsen
Oct 06, 2004 at 9:05 am
bhw, "clown side of blogging": I like that, and the more rabidly partisan the blogger, the more clownish. The need to be cutting edge, to forward the story, leads many, including Drudge, to flout the rules and ethics of good journalism. We don't need a new media based upon half-truths and pandering falsehood - we have enough of that in the old media.
Article comments
26 - RJ
Here's the deal:
If the media, in the coming days, provides PROOF that it's a piece of paper of some sort, you will promise not to vote for Kerry.
And if the media, in the coming days, provides PROOF that Bush was wearing an earpiece that fed him lines from Karl Rove, I will promise not to vote for Bush.
Deal? :)
(By the way, pens don't look like that...)
27 - RJ
Oh, please send me these TIVO pics via e-mail. I wanna see what you are seeing...
28 - Elembis
I've seen the hi-res shot several times now, and it appears that Kerry took out a piece of paper with a pen clipped onto it. He held the cap steady with his left as he pulled the pen and paper away firmly with his right. (The accompanying jerking motion is obvious in the shots from the main cameras.) After continuing to nod and smile, he laid the cap and paper down.
This is puzzling to me, simply because I can't think of a more idiotic way to cheat. If it was a cheat sheet, why didn't he lay it down immediately? He could've had a pen at the podium already, so the pen-uncapping motion was a horrible idea if he had cheating in mind.
My guess is that Kerry clips his pens onto rigid 3x5" cards rather than onto his pocket. If the effort he puts into his looks is extended toward his clothes, this would make a lot of sense. It's not something that I've heard of before, but I think wearing down the edge of a 3x5" card is a better idea than wearing down the edge of your coat pocket.
(BTW: I don't like either candidate much, but I prefer Kerry, and am glad he won the debate.)
29 - bhw
Honey, I don't believe the crap about Bush and the earpiece. [but it would explain a lot!]
My vote is my own and I don't barter it away on web sites. And neither should you.
I wish I could send the TiVo recording. I don't think I can get it to my PC, though. I'd have to do it the old fashioned way -- videotape. And who has any of those or a working VCR?
What you see on a 27-inch TV is much different from what you see on the PC, even at full-screen. The resolution is sharper at full-size, for one. I've watched it in slow-motion and regular speed. Slow motion doesn't actually help you see what's in his hand. When you watch it at regular speed, you just see him reach into his pocket, take something smallish out, move his hands a little [to uncap the pen], then make the move to put the cap of the pen on the back end of it, and finally start writing as the camera switches to the front view. That's it. No paper/note card looking items in his hand at all. No time to do something with some papers and then start with the pen. Nothing sneaky or subversive.
In fact, if Jim Lehrer had been looking at Kerry instead of Bush at that moment, he would have seen most of the motion of Kerry's reach into or out of his pocket. As it was, the cameras saw it, as did the people in the audience as Kerry turned to face forward.
30 - bhw
Here's more conspiracy theorizing in the comments at LGF. Quoting Kerry's response to the opening question:
All of these, and especially homeland security, which we'll talk about a little bit later.
How does he know what is coming up later in the debate unless he had a list of questions prior to the event????!!!
Uh, dumbass, because the subjects of the debate were foreign policy and HOMELAND SECURITY.
I'm telling ya, that Kerry is a crafty one, predicting that he will face questions about homeland security in a debate on ... homeland security. Hey, he must have had Jim Lehrer's questions ahead of time!
31 - Eric Olsen
commenters: when providing a URL for a link, please make the URL an actual HTML link so that the page doesn't get, to put it politely, all fucked up. Thanks
32 - Eric Olsen
I cheated when I was watching - I stuck post-its up on the TV to remind me which candidate was which
33 - bhw
heh, heh
34 - Eric Olsen
one of them kind of reminded me of Ross Perot
35 - jim
What about Bush's earpiece?
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=3562
http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=321
36 - boomcrashbaby
Here is a comment (first one on the page) that did a freeze frame and enhanced the frame to see what Kerry took out of his pocket.
37 - Dean
Hmmm, let me see...
Bush invades Iraq under the pretense of WMD...
Kerry pulls out a pen in a debate...
Gosh I wonder what issue the campaign should turn on?
I've been avoiding commenting on most of the political blather thus far, having watched the Dem's scream about how Bush evaded service and the GOP villify Kerry as a SwiftBoat commander. All I can say is, for God's sake GROW UP ALREADY.
Are you kindergartners? The level of content and context in this election are about close to pure vapour as can ever be imagined. The media coverage is horrifically bad, the attention to issues, nuance and historical context almost completely lacking, and the partisan bellowing over trivia is overshadowing any type of useful commentary.
You want to hand Kerry his head? - fine, DO IT, but pick something of substance or importance.
You want to rip Bush a new one? Be my guest but frame a real position on an issue of importance (it's not like there is a lack of issues in this election!).
Please, try to delve a little bit below the superficial bulls**t.
This rant is now over.
38 - David Flanagan
I think what everyone should be aware of is the fact that the candidates were not allowed to have any personal writing utensils or notes during the debate. They were supposed to use the pens and note paper provided ONLY.
So, even if it is a pen that Kerry pulls out, it shows his lack of concern over following the debate rules that HE agreed to.
I guess you could say that he voted FOR the no pens and notes rule before he voted AGAINST it. ;-)
David
39 - Eric Olsen
I also heard that the cameras (even CSPAN!) conspiratorially excluded the hoses trailing behind each candidate, obscuring the fact that each was receiving an inspirational enema
40 - Rodney Welch
RJ, you're making the Pyrenees out of an anthill. You sound like Nixon. The first thing he said after he lost to Kennedy was "The bastard used notes!" Nixon lost, of course, because of Nixon. The same goes for Bush. Dry up already.
41 - bhw
I also heard that the cameras (even CSPAN!) conspiratorially excluded the hoses trailing behind each candidate, obscuring the fact that each was receiving an inspirational enema
That explains some of Bush's facial expressions.
42 - Eric Olsen
good point!
43 - jack e. jett
kerry kicked that pussy lipped bush ass all over the place. bush moaned and groaned like a four year old girl getting a tooth pulled. that is because he has no brains, no balls, no penis. he is richard simmons in a suit. he is the lowest form of scum on the planet earth.
my urine could beat george w. pussy bush in a debate.
jack e. jett
recent graduate of the
right wing school for
punditry
44 - bhw
I just thought of something. Isn't "pussy lipped" redundant?
45 - Eric Olsen
what's worse, pussy lipped or pussy whipped?
46 - boomcrashbaby
I would have to say lipped.
Pussy whipped makes me think of Julie Newmar or 'When Ann-Margaret Attacks' (the all new Fox show hosted by Sheriff John Bunnell).
Pussy lipped makes me think of a pretty frightening botox explosion.
47 - Eric Olsen
you know, back in the days before travel and stuff, the sailors would come back from the mysterious orient saying the Asian women were horizontal as opposed to vertical - I am not making this up
48 - jack e. jett
eric:
the sad thing is that i believe that about asian women for so long.
jack e. jett
49 - Eric Olsen
your honesty is appreciated Jack E.
50 - Big Time Patriot
OH MY GOD!!
I'm SO done with Kerry now..
The rampant cheating in this debate shows he is a communist and probably worships the devil. Thank god, you convinced me. If a man should use his own pen during a debate where he was asked to use a different pen, the next thing he will be doing is making statements like "the Taliban is no longer in existence" and other kinds of dishonesty.
I would be so ashamed if the candidate I was supporting started lying like that. Good bye Mr. Kerry!!
I'm voting for a man who "stays the course" when it comes to debate rules about pens. Thats the man I want to be starting wars that my son will be drafted to clean up 5 years from now...
51 - Eric Olsen
yes, but more importantly, any thoughts on Asian women?
52 - Shark
RJ,
Your boy lost fair and square.
...AND YOU ARE A G.O.P GIRLIE MAN!!!
Buck up.
Quit Whining.
Here's a Kleenex.
53 - Dawn
yes, but more importantly, any thoughts on Asian women?
Yes, it seems as though men are inordinantly attracted to them regardless of their individual attractiveness.
Now I guess I know why.
54 - Ben
Kerry pulled out his favorite pin for crying out loud. Is this all the Bushies have? Also, if you watch Bush during this same clip, he is unfolding a piece of paper. Although it is not clear where he took this paper from, it is doubtful that it came from his podium unless the debate moderators folded it up for him, which really doesn't make sense.
Bush has lied about Iraq by leading us to believe that Iraq had ties to 9/11, which has been disproven by the 9/11 bipartisan commission. Bush also misled us about Iraq by presenting the minority view about Iraq's WMD capabilities and presenting it as though it was the consensus view.
Also, Bush had a chance to get Zarqawi in 2002, but he ignored the advice of military experts and failed to do so because he was afraid that it would undermine his case for invading Iraq.
Read this website for more details:
www.restoreamerica.blogspot.com
55 - Eric Olsen
And here I wasn't even aware that Kerry had a "favorite pin for crying"
56 - Steve Rhodes
look, it was probably a fucking pen.
it just shows how badly Bush was beaten (fair & square) that the right is seizing on this. What are they going to do, sue Kerry?
And it shows how Drudge really needs to be monitored. He flaks way too much nonsense like that which unfortunately does get picked up (see all the Kerry orange comments).
57 - Eric Olsen
I believe all coding issues are now resolved
58 - bhw
RJ, will you be posting a retraction any time soon? Will you take back your words saying that Kerry cheated and has a lack of moral ethics? If you do, will you make it a separate post titled, "Kerry Didn't Cheat!"?
Or maybe you think a pen gave him an unfair advantage over Bush.
It's a pen. Even Brit Hume of Fox News says so. Check out this photo on the Daily Recycler's blog, which was one of the first blogs to bang the gong about the so-called cheat sheet. The image is from Fox News.
59 - RJ
"RJ, will you be posting a retraction any time soon? Will you take back your words saying that Kerry cheated and has a lack of moral ethics?"
Why would I do that? He clearly broke the rules of the debate, as you yourself admitted. Breaking the rules = CHEATING. And CHEATING is indicative of a lack of ethics.
"Or maybe you think a pen gave him an unfair advantage over Bush."
For all we know, the pen was engraved with shorthand notes. We'll never know of course, because no one but Kerry (and perhaps his minions) inspected the pen before the debate. Which is exactly why the rules (the ones that Kerry clearly broke, remember) were put in place to begin with.
I will retract my belief that the pen was a piece of folded paper. You were right, and I was wrong. Of course, from all the images I had seen up until now, it DID look a whole helluva lot more like a piece of paper than a pen. But when I'm wrong, I admit it. And I was wrong about that.
Now, MOST LIKELY, Kerry broke the rules (i. e. cheated) simply because he wanted to bring his "lucky pen" or some such to the debate with him. Most likely there was no piece of paper with notes hidden inside the pen cap. Most likely.
But we'll never know for sure, because Kerry broke the debate rules. Which is, you know, cheating.
60 - Shark
I'll be the first to admit that Kerry cheated.
He had a large brain hidden in his cranium.
Disadvantage: Bush.
PS: RJ, you really are a "debate" girlie man.
61 - bhw
Of course, from all the images I had seen up until now, it DID look a whole helluva lot more like a piece of paper than a pen.
That's because you were looking at right-wing sites.
Most likely there was no piece of paper with notes hidden inside the pen cap. Most likely.
This is just so sad I don't have words for it.
In your post, you said:
Kerry had to cheat in order to win!
Please explain how the pen enabled him to win.
62 - RJ
ME: Of course, from all the images I had seen up until now, it DID look a whole helluva lot more like a piece of paper than a pen.
BHW: That's because you were looking at right-wing sites.
Are you suggesting that the "right-wing sites" I was viewing altered the images? If so, please provide proof...
ME: Most likely there was no piece of paper with notes hidden inside the pen cap. Most likely.
BHW: This is just so sad I don't have words for it.
Prove that there wasn't a Trojan Horse in the pen.
You can't, can you?
That's exactly why Kerry's behavior was prohibited. In other words, he broke the rules. In other words, he CHEATED.
Now, AGAIN, for those who are unable/unwilling to read for context, I already stated that he PROBABLY did not use the illicit pen for the purposes of cheating. But I don't know this, and neither do you.
ALSO, I have said that Kerry likely would have won the debate no matter what, because Bush is a shitty debater, while Kerry is a master-debater.
Get it, hun?
63 - bhw
RJ, struck a nerve, did I?
My point about the right-wing sites was two-fold: a) you saw what they told you to see and what you wanted to believe, and b) they may have altered the images.
Hey, let's take a poll. What's more likely:
a) that the anti-Kerry weblog brigade altered the images from the debate
or
b) Kerry smuggled in an engraved pen or a minute cheat sheet to the debate, which he then proceeded to read and/or unfold without anyone noticing and with his 60-plus-year-old eyes and no reading glasses
Let's go!
64 - RJ
"My point about the right-wing sites was two-fold: a) you saw what they told you to see and what you wanted to believe"
"Told me to see"? I saw unedited video feed of the debate from several sites, not all of them "right-wing." I do not report things that I am "told" to see. I report what I DO see.
From the original video footage, it looked a whole lot more like a pen than a piece of paper.
Since it has now become obvious that Kerry broke the rules with a pen, instead of paper, I have ceded the point.
What more do you want? Human sacrifice?
"and b) they may have altered the images."
Boston.com? Are they "right-wing"? Do you have any evidence to back that up? Any?
"Hey, let's take a poll. What's more likely:
a) that the anti-Kerry weblog brigade altered the images from the debate
or
b) Kerry smuggled in an engraved pen or a minute cheat sheet to the debate, which he then proceeded to read and/or unfold without anyone noticing and with his 60-plus-year-old eyes and no reading glasses"
It appears neither happened. Though either is possible.
I have no proof (how c ould I?) of my hypothesis. You have no proof (it would be easy to find) of yours.
We are at an impasse.
Kerry won the debate. He almost certainly would have, cheating or no cheating.
Kerry cheated by bringing a pen into the debate, not a piece of folded paper. Point to you. (I really need to get TIVO sometime...)
Kerry cheated (point to me).
I guess THIS debate is a tie... ;)
65 - RJ
"From the original video footage, it looked a whole lot more like a pen than a piece of paper."
ERROR!
"From the original video footage, it looked a whole lot more like a piece of paper than a pen."
Sorry... :-/
66 - bhw
RJ, you saw what you wanted to see. And you published a post saying that Kerry **needed to cheat to win**. That's what you said in your post, and I'm just asking you how the pen helped him win, or conversely, how he would have lost if he hadn't had the pen. You directly linked the rules violation with the debate victory. But now I see you acknowledge that there was no link between the two [although you still toss in "almost certainly"].
Most people don't see a mere broken rule as cheating. The breaking of the rule has to give the rule breaker an advantage for it to be considered meaningful and therefore cheating. Sometimes, people just make mistakes. You may be able to point to a dictionary definition that supports your point, but real people aren't going to get worked up about the pen when it had no impact on the debate and when global terrorism is on the radar. If the outcome of the debate would be the same without the pen, who cares?
The right-wing blogs have now rendered utterly pointless the legitimate, but minor, story that Kerry violated the debate agreement by bringing his pen to the podium.
To boot, they made Bush supporters look desperate to find something, ANYthing to discredit Kerry's performance in the debate. That's how badly he beat Bush that night, and that's how a-scared they are Bush will lose in November in Kerry's momentum keeps up.
67 - bhw
I should add that some leftie blogs are now giving Bush the cheater treatment by suggesting *he* brought a cheat sheet to the podium.
I think they're idiots, too, for doing exactly what the righty blogs did: parsing only a small portion of the video on their PCs, rather than watching the entire shot on a TV at actual speed.
They're claiming that when Bush walked up to his podium, he reached into his pocket, took out a piece of paper, and unfolded it onto the podium. They're basing this accusation on a brief shot of Bush from behind, after he arrived at his podium.
But I've watched the entire shot from the time Bush and Kerry shake hands to the time Bush gets to his podium, and I never saw him reach into any pockets. And his hands were basically visible the entire time.
In fact, when they say Bush is unfolding a piece of paper, I think he's actually just doing what Kerry was doing: getting his pen ready.
This is the sad state of politics in America, and, honestly, one of the down sides of blogging. Not that our "legitimate" media pals have been all that professional lately, but stuff like this, these unfounded accusations based on junior CSI wannabees sitting at their PCs, will be the undoing of the political blogs.
68 - Eric Olsen
bhw, "clown side of blogging": I like that, and the more rabidly partisan the blogger, the more clownish. The need to be cutting edge, to forward the story, leads many, including Drudge, to flout the rules and ethics of good journalism. We don't need a new media based upon half-truths and pandering falsehood - we have enough of that in the old media.
69 - Anthony Grande
Bush smashed Kerry in those debates