The current anti-immigration mania sweeping the nation began with John Tanton.
In an earlier piece about Colorado Republican Congressman Tom Tancredo, I mentioned that Tancredo had received large sums of money from John Tanton, and referred to Tanton as the ‘Puppet Master.” The Southern Leadership Poverty Center deserves credit for the moniker, “The Puppetmaster.” In an Intelligence Report from 2005, the SLPC catalogued the baker’s dozen anti-immigration organizations under Tanton’s control. Twenty-four years ago Tanton founded FAIR, the Federation for Immigration Reform, and thereby laid the foundation stones of today’s the anti-immigration fervor. How did this liberal proponent of negative population growth, retired ophthalmologist, and bee-keeper create a movement that has been embraced by conservatives and denounced by liberals?…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - moonraven
I am sorry to hear you are paying for female companionship.
27 - zingzing
jesus christ. i'm on your side in this whole thing... just taking exception to your painting of all americans as lazy bums...
you know as well as i do that women cost money, no matter where that money ends up.
28 - moonraven
No, I don't know any such thing. I am a woman of independent means.
As for painting folks from the States as lazy bums--I believe that is the stereotype usually applied to Mexicans.
What's sauce for the goose....
29 - zingzing
ok... well, if you look back through the comments, you'll note that i don't apply any such stereotypes.
as for being a woman of independent means, i congratulate you, but you can't convince me you're blind to the fact that USUALLY the man pays when out on a date. it's not always the case. it's just polite. that might not be the case with you, but it's that way for most of the world...
why do i bother writing such stuff? you are angry about something. i've never had any problem with you, i'm on your side in this and just about every other argument, yet the first chance you get, you call me a lazy, whore-fucking, debt-ridden consumerist mallrat-windbag... what's up with that?
30 - moonraven
You are taking this WAY too personally.
Here in Latin America it is still traditional that the man pays on dates, although that is gradually going the way of the horse and buggy here, too--but it hasn't been the case in the States since I was an undergraduate (and I graduated in 1966!)
31 - zingzing
i'm taking it personally? fine. actually, i just love a good nonsense argument.
if paying for a date hasn't been the man's job since 1966... then what have i been doing my whole dating life? i certainly don't always pay, but if it is a formal date, you know, get dressed up, do your hair (ladies), put on some nice shoes, drink some wine, eat food that's overpriced and undercooked, nice walk back through the city with the obvious intention of getting laid... i'm almost always gonna pay for those dates. and i don't mind one bit. makes me feel like a man! provider of stuffed salmon and scallops in a delicate white wine sauce with herbs! damn it!
32 - moonraven
That's silly. You're just using it to justify expecting sex.
Or else you are definitely dating the wrong kind of women.
33 - moonraven
At least you probably are not dating any Native Americans--almost all of us are wildly allergic to seafood...
34 - zingzing
i expect sex every night, and there ain't one thing wrong with that. expectation does not always equal reality, and that's fine. and the women i date are the very models of fidelity (except for a couple of them). the girl i am currently seeing is a complete masterpeice of humanity: gorgeous, ambitious, intelligent, funny, cute, interesting, emotionally mature (most of the time), and great in bed. what's wrong with that?
jesus. do you really see misogyny in my statements? i don't think that me paying for a date (which is just polite--and i wouldn't if i didn't want to) equates to a justification for "expecting sex."
that's not the payoff. the evening is the payoff. if that includes some good food, a nice walk, some cute little thing to laugh and get drunk with, that's great. if it includes screaming orgasms, i'm all for it. i like sex. it's fun. i could deal with it everyday, maybe twice a day. i would certainly be willing to show a girl a good time (and have one myself) if it increased my chances of getting laid. it's just the way most humans are wired.
i love women. i love sex. i love sex with women. what's wrong with it, really?
35 - G. Chell
The issue here is not illegals. It is FAIR. Is FAIR racist? Yes. Is Tanton racist? Yes. Is Tancredo racist? Yes. Are all folks who oppose immigration, illegal or otherwise racist? No.
36 - zingzing
illegal immigration? what?
oh yeah...
(but i like sexy-talk better.)
37 - G. Chell
This is what FAIR, Center for Immigration Studies, American Patrol, white skin worshipping American Evangelicals (in reality pagans) and Heather MacDonald are scared of...
"And given that non-Hispanic whites are now a minority of the Texas population, they eventually will be a minority of Lone Star State voters. Unless Republicans unexpectedly become dramatically more popular with Texas Hispanics or African-Americans, that state will become less reliably Republican within the next two or three presidential elections. Because Texas has 34 electoral votes, the prospect of its being in play would be terrifying to the GOP." cookpolitical.com
It is not their interest in American workers or black people. If I had committed atrocities that whites in Texas and other states committed against blacks, I would be scared too!!
38 - St. Louis CofCC Blogmeister
Moonraven:
I gutted that "Social Security" argument of you and others in the aftermath of the Brokaw report on immigration
39 - moonraven
Louie:
You didn't "gut" squat. It doesn't play on the ground--where it counts.
Chell:
Opposition to immigration is of course RACIST. There is no other reason to oppose it.
Zing:
Yep, I think you're either misogynist or less than 16 years old. Take your pick.
40 - zingzing
moonraven... and i think you're a 60 year old grump who hasn't had good sex in some time.
if i'm a misogynist, then so is every other man who ever paid for a date.
as for any question of maturity, you sure don't show much of your own, unless maturity means bitterness, anger and assuming the worst of everyone who dares cross your path.
41 - moonraven
"Cute little thing to laugh and get drunk with" pretty much says it all.
Misogynist, he asked--disingenuously....
42 - moonraven
I am 62, fabulous looking, and my sex life is more than satisfactory.
I certainly don't have to deal with men who think that I owe them a roll in the hay because they bought me a plate of enchiladas!
43 - St. Louis CofCC Blogmeister
"Play on the ground?" Qu'est que c'est?
Also, how would you respond to the truths about the Mexican government having its own southern border with Guatemala militarized? Too, Mexico has a lot of nativist restrictions hard-wired into its constitution.
I would direct you to the CSP link that I link to on this entry, but it's a dead link now. Other than what I allude to in my blog post, those restrictions include:
* Non-natives of Mexico cannot own real estate by themselves
* Naturalized citizens of Mexico can never have the full set of civil privileges and rights and liberties that native Mexicans have (inasmuch as the Mexican government does recognize them truly --ed.)
* The Mexican constitution gives native born Mexicans the explicit privilege to detain physically suspected illegal aliens into Mexico and transport them to law enforcement. In other words, the Mexican constitution gives native born Mexicans the privilege of being "Minutemen," but our version cannot and does not physically detain illegal aliens, they just record their presence for the (futile) hope that the U.S.eless Border Patrol would use it.
44 - moonraven
Oh, and I did not "assume the worst" until YOU stated how much money you wasted on women....
45 - zingzing
it says nothing, and you fucking know it.
i like attractive women. do you like attractive men? i like to drunk with them.
how is enjoying conversation and good times with an attractive woman misogynistic?
i think you hate men if this is all it takes to make you think i hate women.
your argument is absolutely absurd.
46 - zingzing
i never said it was a waste of money, and i certainly didn't say that me buying a lady food means she owes me sex, that's something you decided to believe because you wanted to.
47 - moonraven
Women are not "cute little things".
It seems that you are angry about something--and apparently it's the opposite gender.
48 - zingzing
some women are cute. some women are little. all women are things, if you want to be literal about it. "cute little thing" is a bit of vernacular. it wasn't meant to mean anything.
how the hell do you gather that i'm angry about women when all i said is that i don't mind treating my dates to dinner?
49 - zingzing
lady, it ain't the 60's anymore. feminism won with a majority of decent human beings. but, there are still things called chivalry and being polite and gentlemanly that feminism can't kill in the name of equality. some women like being treated like ladies. some think that denies them some right. i don't really have a problem with either end of the spectrum, but if a woman wants to be treated with traditionally chivalrous ideals, then that is how i shall treat her. if she wants to pay her half, she can do so. whatever the woman wants, she shall have.
the 60's are over. women won. they've got their equality, should they want it. if they don't, they can keep their superiority.
50 - moonraven
Louie:
Racism is racism. No matter who is the racist.
At no point have I ever implied that there are no racists in Mexico. In fact, had you asked me--instead of just assuming that I denied that there is racism here--I would have told you that Mexico is a very racist country. Yep, here the darker your skin the more you are looked down on.
As for your Mexican info--latter day expert:
Non-Mexicans cannot own land on the COASTS by themselves.
Naturalized citizens have exactly the same rights and privileges as Mexicans EXCEPT that they cannot be President.
The Minuteman bullshit you threw up is just that--bullshit. Mexicans do prey on folks coming from Central America--but NOT to turn them over to Immigration authorities. They frequently ROB them.
As for the militarization of the Guatemalan border--that's impossible to do. So they let social darwinism take its course.
You have clearly never spent any time in Mexico.
51 - G. Chell
"Opposition to immigration is of course RACIST. There is no other reason to oppose it."
Comment: As my earlier discussions indicate I dont necessarily agree.
"Non-natives of Mexico cannot own real estate by themselves
* Naturalized citizens of Mexico can never have the full set of civil privileges and rights and liberties that native Mexicans have (inasmuch as the Mexican government does recognize them truly --ed.)
* The Mexican constitution gives native born Mexicans the explicit privilege to detain physically suspected illegal aliens into Mexico and transport them to law enforcement. In other words, the Mexican constitution gives native born Mexicans the privilege of being "Minutemen," but our version cannot and does not physically detain illegal aliens, they just record their presence for the (futile) hope that the U.S.eless Border Patrol would use it."
Comment: That is why US is well ahead of Mexico in economic development. If we want to become another Mexico we should adopt all these regulations.
I think this thread has degenerated into irrelevance and nonsense.
52 - moonraven
Zing,
I told you you were taking this all WAY too personally.
And you are protesting WAY too much.
I think you feel guilty as hell, but that's not a comfortable feeling, so you deny it.
Better not to do things or hold attitudes that produce guilt feelings.
Your statement "all women are THINGS", is another classic bit of misogyny.
53 - moonraven
Chell: Why are you rrepeating the same bullshit?
54 - zingzing
some definitions of "thing" for you, moonraven:
3. anything that is or may become an object of thought.
12. a living being or creature: "His baby's a cute little thing."
15. something signified or represented, as distinguished from a word, symbol, or idea representing it.
1. An entity, an idea, or a quality perceived, known, or thought to have its own existence.
2. a. The real or concrete substance of an entity.
b. An entity existing in space and time.
all women are things, all men are things, all anything are things. i stated it that way because i knew it would get you angry. it's wonderfully easy to do.
"I think you feel guilty as hell, but that's not a comfortable feeling, so you deny it.
Better not to do things or hold attitudes that produce guilt feelings."
nope. not guilty of misogyny at all. i absolutely adore women, for all the reasons one could or should or would. i don't know where you get off psychoanalyzing me because i don't mind being traditional in certain ways towards women, if a woman so desires.
i know this is the wrong place for it, but...
hey ladies and gentlemen out there, if a man pays for a woman's dinner, does he do so because he hates her (and all women)?
55 - moonraven
You're still blowing smoke, zing.
You have revealed YOURSELF as a macho misogynist pig.
Nobody forced you to do that. It was 100% your choice.
You "adore women", hahhahahahahahahah.
56 - zingzing
you are truly ridiculous.
me, macho? my roommate would be shocked!
if anyone is revealing something (or blowing smoke), it is you.
if you aren't a complete man-hater, which i wouldn't presume to know, then you are just an argumentative person, willing to jump to conclusions without the slightest thought for what is actually being said.
if that is the case, i think i have found a kindred soul~~~ <3 <3 <3
57 - SJ Reidhead
At least the St. Louis CofCC has my gender correct. Contrary to popular opinion, I am a life-long registered Republican. I consider myself fairly conservative, but am ‘reasonable’ in my out look of candidates and policies. I am not a bleeding heart liberal. Once upon a time I was considered to the right of Margaret Thatcher, but unfortunately, thanks to the influx of folks from organizations like the CofCC and various other extreme conservative organizations and philosophies, I am now considered a moderate, even though I have never changed my opinions except for the death penalty.
The niceties over, I just want to thank all of you for confirming my theory that when it comes to illegal immigration. All civility has been cast aside on both sides of the issue. Until civility can return, and reasonable logic can prevail, nothing is going to be solved. Next, I find any use of profanity to be completely unnecessary and a hallmark of a poorly educated mind with no vocabulary. I do not respond to profanity.
We need immigration reform. It needs to be done in a climate where all this hate rhetoric ceases and we can come up with a lasting solution. Unfortunately, until the nation of Mexico does something to rein in their out of control plutocracy which is basically responsible for the problem, nothing " no wall, no troops, no increase of BP agents will be able to solve the problem. I live in a small resort town in a border state. I see this plutocracy up front day in and day out. They are rude, arrogant, and have no regard or respect for anyone other than their own social class. Where I live people dread seeing them arrive in town. Because the standard of living in Mexico is so low, and wages are on a serf level, people in the US who would be considered ‘middle’ middle class live like kings. Nothing is going to change until Mexico is forced to institute a living minimum wage. This is not going to happen, so learn to live with the consequences.
Yes, I think the whole movement as it exists today has been influenced and promoted by John Tanton and his extreme racism. There are several theorists who have influenced him, one being a gentleman named Samuel Huntington, a Harvard scholar, who is like a god to Tom Tancredo. Huntington is an xenophobe who is terrified of anyone with a Spanish accent. Anti-immigration and anti-illegal advocates like the CofCC would gain more credibility if they would also advocate the wholesale removal of the second largest group of illegals, blond and red haired, blue and green eyed people from Ireland. Unfortunately, the entire anti movement loses credibility because the fact that illegals from Ireland make up the second largest demographic of illegals. You never hear of anyone going into an Irish Pub and demanding to see their green cards.
I don’t know how many people have investigated what goes in with an ICE raid or what happens to people and families. As a Christian, my heart goes out to these people. Unfortunately, because of Tanton based organizations, we are spoon fed miss-information as to the true nature of the Mexican illegal immigrant. Heather MacDonald, mentioned above, is one of the worst offenders. So is World Net Daily. Living in a border state where we have a large Hispanic population, I’ve come to realize we have nothing to fear from people who speak Spanish as a first language. Some of my dearest friends are of a Hispanic background, coming from families who have been here since the Conquistadors. Their Republican pedigree is impeccable. Frankly, I find the racist, anti-Hispanic rhetoric promoted by the likes of MacDonald, Tanton, and WND to be extremely offensive.
58 - moonraven
Great. I am glad you recognize racism for what it is.
Unfortunately, the Mexican plutocracy is only one half of the problem here--the other half is the gringo plutocracy.
As for Huntington, before he was stirring the pot in regard to Mexicans, he was stirring the pot in regard to Arabs in his Clash of Civilizations pile of baloney.
We can all see how helpful it was that he provided a cut-rate sociological alibi for The Bush Gang. Really solved a lot of world problems.
He will be just as helpful in regard to folks whose first language is Spanish, I am sure.
As for your complaint about language, what's profane is not writing the word fucking: it's fucking over the folks around you.
I am a professional educator with a PhD earned 35 years ago, and I call things as I see them.
59 - St. Louis CofCC Blogmeister
SJR:
1. I agree with you about Mexico's internal problems. But your open borders solution will forever preclude any resolution. Mexico's northern border is their plutocracy's safety valve.
2. Poor Mexicans? What about us? 12 Americans a day are killed by (ahem) "undocumented workers," that makes more than 4,300 a year, which is almost a 9/11 and a half more every year.
3. The Irish are white. I don't think they'll cause the racial dispossession of white America. The immigration issue is a racial issue; to say it's not is as amateurish as to see a cake and say that bread flour is not an issue.
4. What happened to your Louisiana friend? He hasn't posted to his blog since 12/11, and nothing that I can jerk his chain around with since well before that.
60 - St. Louis CofCC Blogmeister
Moonraven:
You're right. There is no "Clash of Civilizations" between the Caucasian world and the Arab world. That big hole in the ground in lower Manhattan was just a geological cave-in.
That proves that there is a clash, whether you believe we bought 9/11 on ourselves totally, or the perfidy is 100% their fault.
61 - moonraven
Nonsense.
That big hole in the ground can be attributed to the US government.
Ever hear of the Maine? The Reichstag Fire?
Don't be so gullible.
BTW, I just came back from the Middle East. No clash of cultures for this bird.
62 - Arch Conservative
"What a crock. Undocumented workers have paid billions into the Social Security system--for benefits they will NEVER be able to receive"
That's the crock. It's actually quite the opposite. Most ILLEGALS don't pay taxes as they work for cash yet they receive free health care and other social service benefits.
And it's no racist to oppose ILLEGALS. You can say it is all day but it's not about race. Maybe you should change your name from Moonraven to moonbat!
63 - St. Louis CofCC Blogmeister
I've heard of the Maine, and the Reichstag, and the Gulf of Tonkin. And my mind does gravitate toward "alternate explanations" of such things. With that having been said, I think the "official" version of 9/11 is just about entirely true in regards to the perps, and mostly true when it comes to the means, though I think there's a preponderance of evidence to suggest that internal explosives helped the nefarious cause.
Also, on Flight 93, I believe the "Let's Roll" story, but I also believe that our Government rightly aimed to shoot 93 down. I tend to think that the "Let's Rollers" succeeded before the Air Force could.
64 - St. Louis CofCC Blogmeister
Arch Conservative:
Scroll up, I put up two URLs that disprove Moonraven's argument re Social Security. They're both a bit long, and very boring if you're not fond of long-winded beancountey explanations.
65 - moonraven
It's ALWAYS about race. And I WILL say it all fucking day, [Edited].
Do your homework. And see if you can read this article from the New York Times: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security with Billions
By Eduardo Porter, The New York Times April 5, 2005
globalaging.org
66 - zingzing
bush is evil and all, but don't you think that if he wanted to concoct some bloody "terrorist" attack as reasoning for war, he would have done it elsewhere?
not that he has shown any special care for american lives... but he could have, you know, run some airplanes into buildings in toronto or something, then use the "if you attack our allies, you attack us" line of reasoning to get us involved.
who knows... that probably would have lead to more international support and more internal support for the war. if he wanted to fake a terrorist attack in order to push us towards war in the middle east, attacking his own citizens is probably the silliest way to go about it.
67 - moonraven
There is absolutely NO reason to believe the Bush Gang's version of 9/11.
And EVERY reason to believe otherwise.
Or do you pick out ONE item from a stack of a million lies and decide to believe it just to be kind?
I have a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in buying and INSURING to the hilt before the Saudis strike again.
This is too stupid for me.
I am out of here.
68 - moonraven
Not silly at all, zing. No need to take risks attacking another country.
You idiots bought the story--hook, line and sinker.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the US citizenry.
69 - G. Chell
"Yes, I think the whole movement as it exists today has been influenced and promoted by John Tanton and his extreme racism. There are several theorists who have influenced him, one being a gentleman named Samuel Huntington, a Harvard scholar, who is like a god to Tom Tancredo. Huntington is an xenophobe who is terrified of anyone with a Spanish accent. Anti-immigration and anti-illegal advocates like the CofCC would gain more credibility if they would also advocate the wholesale removal of the second largest group of illegals, blond and red haired, blue and green eyed people from Ireland. Unfortunately, the entire anti movement loses credibility because the fact that illegals from Ireland make up the second largest demographic of illegals. You never hear of anyone going into an Irish Pub and demanding to see their green cards."
Comment: Thank you!!
"I don't know how many people have investigated what goes in with an ICE raid or what happens to people and families. As a Christian, my heart goes out to these people. Unfortunately, because of Tanton based organizations, we are spoon fed miss-information as to the true nature of the Mexican illegal immigrant. Heather MacDonald, mentioned above, is one of the worst offenders. So is World Net Daily. Living in a border state where we have a large Hispanic population, I've come to realize we have nothing to fear from people who speak Spanish as a first language. Some of my dearest friends are of a Hispanic background, coming from families who have been here since the Conquistadors. Their Republican pedigree is impeccable. Frankly, I find the racist, anti-Hispanic rhetoric promoted by the likes of MacDonald, Tanton, and WND to be extremely offensive."
Comment: Thank you. If you want to see the face of white American racism no need to look inside the hoods. Just look at the face of Heather MacDonlad...the quintessential white American female racist who would have supported massive resistance had she lived her adult life in the early 1960s.
70 - zingzing
i don't really buy the "bush did it" argument at all. i don't buy his version of events completely either. but i don't presume to know everything.
i see no proof for the "loose change" version of events i am supposing you are believing... "hook, line and sinker."
"No need to take risks attacking another country."
um... no need to take risks attacking another country so that you have an excuse to attack another country? how do you come around to that logic?
it's true what you say about "underestimating american intelligence..." but it's just as true as anywhere else.
71 - St. Louis CofCC Blogmeister
G. Chell:
And the problem with the "massive resistance" (i.e. to forced integration, mainly in the South and in northern cities) in the 1960s is?
Judging from the history of the last four decades, it turns out that the "massive resistance" was mostly correct. The "massive resistance" hasn't ended, it has morphed into another form, called urban sprawl.
72 - St. Louis CofCC Blogmeister
"Underestimating American intelligence?"
I'll take my chances with a random name out of the Cheyenne, Wyoming phone book rather than the Karachi, Pakistan phone book any day.
The intelligence of the typical American didn't bother Bill Buckley any, who said he would rather be governed by the first thousand names in the Boston phone book than the Harvard faculty, and that was coming from someone with a very erudite, academic persona.
73 - Roy Beck
Reidhead has written something far more dangerous than fiction in that there are a lot of facts in the opinion piece but an amazing number of factual errors and gross distortions. Since some things are true, the reader has to think that any of them could be true. But most aren't. In almost any case people, characters and organizations get defamed with false information.
I know something about the facts because I have been working full-time in the environmental sustainability/economic justice arm of the immigration-reduction movement since 1991. And I have known John Tanton since the mid-1970s when I was an environmental reporter for the Grand Rapids (MI) Press and he was one of the environmental leaders whom I covered.
When a column like this one is so far off the factual track, I try not to assume the worst about the writer -- that he/she has simply made up these things. A quick look at this writer's webpage makes me want to assume an honorable intent. But I wonder if the writer has used sources which already were grossly inaccurate and then perhaps made some faulty assumptions what even those meant.
Almost all of this information originates with the SPLC website. That article was rife with factual errors when it first emerged. Then many writers distorted what SPLC wrote well beyond anything that was there. I have seen the most outrageous things written that claim some connection to the SPLC article.
There is no way I want to take time to try to correct every error in this column. I do know that those people who are set on having millions of new foreign workers enter the country each year and driving the U.S. population to a half-billion over the next few decades will tend to choose to believe any nasty stuff they read.
But for those of you who have a little more of an interest in the environment and in fairness to American workers, I would invite you to take a look at our website.
I founded NumbersUSA in 1997 to carry out the recommendations of the bi-partisan U.S. Commission on Immigration Reform, chaired by Barbara Jordan in the last act of a long, illustrious career.
You will see links on our website to read why Jordan and her commission recommended dramatic reductions in immigration to protect the more vulnerable members of American society.
74 - St. Louis CofCC Blogmeister
Roy Beck:
Don't bother with correcting her. Let her (and the SPLC, ADL, and the rest of the Paranoia-Industrial Complex) keep on parroting blatant and easily demonstrable lies and half-truths. It's our trump card against them should we all be in court together, or in any other situation where ruining their credibility comes to down to showing how they play fast-and-loose with the truth.
75 - G. Chell
And the problem with the "massive resistance" (i.e. to forced integration, mainly in the South and in northern cities) in the 1960s is?
Judging from the history of the last four decades, it turns out that the "massive resistance" was mostly correct. The "massive resistance" hasn't ended, it has morphed into another form, called urban sprawl.
Comment: As I said, I have no problem with you guys. You guys claim to be avowed racists who want segregation and an end to race mixing. All I want is the same level of honesty from FAIR, Tancredo and Heather MacDonald.
Roy Beck's concern is environmental degradation. No argument there either. My problem is with Tancredo and Hunter..if they are as honest as you guys no problem. But, they claim to protect the American worker when it comes to immigration and screw the American worker when it is on other issues. Same problem with Tanton, FAIR , CIS and others whether Mr. Beck likes it or not. I dont need to read the SPLC or ADL website to deduce this. You dont need to be a genius or a rocket scientist.