Sen. John McCain would have you believe he is a hero and a patriot. Is he?
Senator and Republican presidential candidate John Sidney McCain III spends much of his stump time regaling his devotees with stories of how he is - at least since his release from North Vietnam's "Hanoi Hilton" prison - a genuine military hero who has always put "country first." To the contrary, there is evidence that he has always put John McCain first.…
Article comments
76 - Christopher Rose
Right, now that you folks are re-acquainted, let's leave all the past in the past and talk issues.
Marthe, I don't want to see any more comments directed at other commenters. Stick to the subject or this spontaneous leeway will be withdrawn for the last time.
77 - John
#2 McCain claims that he was tortured and pretty much left to die until his captors discovered that he was the son of an American admiral. What he doesn't relate is that it was McCain himself who informed the Vietnamese of his family ties.
Dave Nalle’s reply:
“Actually, McCain is on record admitting this in the interview he gave to US News and World Report when he returned from Vietnam”
I don't recall him saying it recently.
That would deflate his “hero claim” somewhat, wouldn’t it?
The man does deserve credit for being a POW.
It ends there.
78 - DaveNalle
It's very difficult to track down MR's comments because she has posted under scores of different names and from as many different IPs. She's even posted with fake foreign accents and intentionally distorted grammar to pass herself off as an arab.
But, the earliest comment I can find is from September of 2006, on this article, comment #21, which was primarily just an insult directed at me as author, saying in part:
The discussion remained civil until she started telling people that they couldn't have an opinion unless they could read Spanish and began denying the existence of evidentiary links which people had provided a comment or two earlier.
Yes, eventually I called her arrogant and closed minded, but if you can read that thread and not find it justified at that point I have no use for you.
Dave
79 - DaveNalle
I don't recall him saying it recently.
That would deflate his "hero claim" somewhat, wouldn't it?
The man does deserve credit for being a POW.
Agreed. And being a POW doesn't really count towards being president in any meaningful way. For that matter, being a hero doesn't qualify you to be a president either.
But McCain did run a military base, serve as naval liaison to Congress and serve many years in elective office, all of which is quite a sufficient resume for the job he's running for. Arguably even better than Biden's experience which is much less diverse and has zero executive experience in it.
Dave
80 - Christopher Rose
Having just revisited that thread, I saw the first insults were made to Marthe by the now banned JOM and yourself, Dave.
Anyway, we are done raking over the past so let's get back to the debate.
On the subject of presidential readiness, I seem to recall one president saying that you are never qualified for the job and that the learning curve is unbelievably steep. One more reason to vote for a smart guy.
Is it fact or fiction that the presidents have personal journals of some kind which are often passed on to successive presidents?
81 - John
“But McCain did run a military base, serve as naval liaison to Congress and serve many years in elective office, all of which is quite a sufficient resume for the job he's running for. Arguably even better than Biden's experience which is much less diverse and has zero executive experience in it.”
Dave
With all that experience, you’d think that McCain would have told GWB to not invade Iraq,
Think of it. McCain could have saved thousands of American lives, thousands of Iraqi lives, and avoided a few million Iraqis either leaving their homes and country or be killed -- plus his “experience” could have saved the country hundreds of billions of dollars, which had to be borrowed from China.
If that McCain “experience” has any value, what is it?
If McCain’s experience is your reason to vote for him, your reasoning is grossly deficient.
Not to mention Sarah, who “can see Russia from her house.”
The woman is a nut. And so is her sponsor for selecting her.
82 - DaveNalle
Lots of people with even more experience than McCain encouraged Bush to invade Iraq. Experience and good judgment or prescience don't necessarily go together.
And I never suggested that his experience alone was reason to vote for McCain. I was just pointing out that he does HAVE that experience, for whatever it may be worth.
My argument for voting for McCain would almost entirely consist of arguments against voting for Obama.
Dave
83 - John
"I was just pointing out that he does HAVE that experience, for whatever it may be worth."
Whatever it may be worth?
How about a plugged nickel.
84 - John
My argument for voting against McCain would begin with arguments against voting for Palin.
McCain has cancer and will be 76 at the end of a 4-year term. The odds are there that he may not make it,
So Dave, what is your argument for voting for Palin?
85 - Clavos
So Dave, what is your argument for voting for Palin?
You can't vote for Palin.
Or Biden.
86 - Dave Nalle
Keep in mind that McCain's mother is 97 and not dead yet. Plus, McCain has hinted pretty strongly about a single term, which in some ways makes him more appealing.
As for Palin, she's no dumber and no less experienced than others who've served in the office. She's articulate and takes instruction well, and seems to have some basically sound ideas on individual liberty. Put her with some good advisers and she'll do fine. If Andrew Jackson and Harry Truman were able to run the country halfway competently I'm sure Palin could do as well.
Dave
87 - Cindy D
Well she's not dumber than Dan Quayle. I'll give her that much. But, she's nasty and despicable.
88 - Dave Nalle
Cindy, what's your basis for declaring Palin to be 'nasty and despicable'. Have you seen her torturing puppies or something? Because nothing in her record or in all the exhaustive investigation of the huge numbers of reporters sent to dig up dirt matches that description.
By all accounts she's a pretty nice, perhaps somewhat contentious, but hardly 'despicable' person.
Dave
89 - El Bicho
"Keep in mind that McCain's mother is 97 and not dead yet"
Keep in mind his father lived to 70.
90 - Cannonshop
of course the man's dead-he was MARRIED, 'twas probably a RELEASE. I myself am looking forward to my sudden demise just as soon as I can get enough put away that my wife won't have to find some other poor son-of-a-bitch to torment.
91 - Clavos
"Keep in mind that McCain's mother is 97 and not dead yet"
Keep in mind his father lived to 70.
Neither of which means shit.
92 - El Bicho
That was my point.
93 - Clavos
No kidding! Really?
94 - bliffle
"John McCain's Image: True or Tainted?"
Do you mean his image as a cranky old man shooing kids off his lawn?
95 - bliffle
Dave Nalle hopes no one will challenge this, but...
"Lots of people with even more experience than McCain encouraged Bush to invade Iraq. Experience and good judgment or prescience don't necessarily go together."
Like, who?
Wolfowitz?
96 - moon
What I continue to find astounding--and I do not think I have to satisfy the "editor" of this forum by writing this comment in Arabic OR Spanish--is that from a population base of 300,000,000 people, the best the One Party System could do is field two presidential candidates who are 1. plastic capuccino (I assume Obama receives big bucks from Nestle?) and 2. an over-the-hill extra from the 70s film, The Deer Hunter.
And the candidates for veeps are even worse: 1. A complete nonentity whose name I have trouble remembering and 2. A toothy tootsy whose claims to fame are shooting animals from helicopters while chewing gum and screaming You betcha and picking up dollar bills without using her hands.
And some folks have the jejune temerity to criticize this poster for not living in the US.
God (if he exists) forbid!
97 - Dan(Miller)
Re comment #94
How about Secretary Powell? In August of 2004, during the Presidential campaign,
Dan(Miller)
98 - Cindy D
RE #88
Dave,
Sarah Palin epitomizes the dangers inherent in our failure to teach critical thinking skills. She is anti-intelligence. She is the poster child for the American Utopian myth. She ignores or resents the "other" in her community. She is a usurper of rights (unless you happen to be white). She has mishandled her position of trust through nepotism, through failure to connect, through working to destroy rights, and abuse of power.
The glint in her eye while she froths vitriol, demonstrates her enjoyment of being a hate-monger. She is so skilled at slander and so eager to engage in it, you can almost hear her heavy breathing. I think of her as the quintessential "mediocre Joe."
99 - moon
Cindy, You give Palin WAAAAAAAAY too much credit.
She is what I described in 96--nothing more.
100 - Cindy D
LOL Moon, I'll buy that, but can I keep the "quintessential mediocre Joe" bit. I rather liked it. :-)
101 - moon
I didn't like the phrase, and let me explain WHY:
1. Quintessential is a word absent from her vocabulary. (No point in insulting someone if they don't understand you.)
2. Calling her Mediocre is extravagantly overestimating her skills and personality.
3. And I THINK, based on her primary skill--picking up dollar bills without using her hands--that she is female--or at least NOW she is (there was that rumor started by someone that she had a sex change operation in Thailand about 18 months ago)....
102 - Dave Nalle
Dave Nalle hopes no one will challenge this, but...
Why on earth would I hope that? The statement is so obviously true that challenging it does seem uniquely pointless, though.
As someone already pointed out, Colin Powell supported the invasion. So did Donald Rumsfeld, who you have to admit had experience in national defense. So did most of the Republicans and Democrats in congress, including a number of veterans and members of relevant congressional committees. You either forget or are trying to be a revisionist about how wide spread support for the invasion of Iraq actually was.
Dave
103 - moon
Let's cut to the chase here: ALL of the neocons supported the invasion of Irak.
They thought it was going to be a piece of cake.
The fact that they were wrong just shows you how easily led gringos are. The word lemming comes to mind.
104 - John
Dave says:
“Colin Powell supported the invasion. So did Donald Rumsfeld, who you have to admit had experience in national defense.”
Iraq had nothing to do with national defense, so whatever experience Rumsfeld had, other that being a Washington insider for most of his life (when he wasn’t promoting aspartame to the FDA), was of little consequence. And even if it was relaated, Rumsfeld is hardly someone the country can trust.
“So did most of the Republicans and Democrats in congress“
Bush creaated FEAR in the populace. And we know what FEAR does to both Republicans and Democrats in congress just before election time.
So did a “number of veterans and members of relevant congressional committees.”
Of course, you can fool some of the people some of the time...
“You either forget or are trying to be a revisionist about how wide spread support for the invasion of Iraq actually was.’
Any support was built on a series of lies.
It’s amazing how much Condi Rice’s depiction of Iraq’s imminent nuclear attack against the US was -- unless the US acted immediately, and how the MSM promoted it. This affected even those who normally are sane. However, most other countries didn’t drink from that polluted bottle.
105 - Baronius
Cindy, could you back up comment #98? Specifically, that Palin is a racist?
106 - Cindy D
Baronius,
I'll elaborate. I think this is the comment you mean.
"She is a usurper of rights (unless you happen to be white)."
Alaska Native Americans are disregarded and their federal rights are attacked in court by Palin. She prefers to expand commercial fishing. She owns a commercial fishing license which brought her over $46k in income last year. Her total income was at least $230k.
1. Palin has attacked Alaska Native Subsistence Fishing
2. Palin has attacked Alaska Native Subsistence Hunting
3. Palin has attacked Alaska Tribal Sovereignty
4. Palin has attacked Alaska Native Languages
She also spurns Alaska's black community.
107 - Cindy D
Baronius,
I can back up any of it. let me know what you need.
108 - Dave Nalle
Bush creaated FEAR in the populace. And we know what FEAR does to both Republicans and Democrats in congress just before election time.
Nice repetition of talking points. But in fact, Osama and the 9/11 attack created fear in the populace. If anything Bush worked to create a false sense of security.
Of course, you can fool some of the people some of the time...
And some people are just fools.
Any support was built on a series of lies.
Actually, it was a combination of lies, truth and spin. Mostly truth and spin when you get down to it. Very few actual lies.
It's amazing how much Condi Rice's depiction of Iraq's imminent nuclear attack against the US was -- unless the US acted immediately,
You might want to go back and read those statements again. They were full of qualifications and didn't say anything about an imminent nuclear attack, though they did overstate the likelihood of Iraq developing full nuclear capability if it got weapons grade fissionables. Always in there was the caveat that they did not have and could not produce weapons grade plutonium. No plutonium. No bomb.
Dave
109 - bliffle
Powell, Rumsfeld, etc., only supported the invasion after the fact. Out of loyalty, one supposes.
110 - Baronius
Cindy, you know what? I was trying to write a reply to your comment, and I just lost heart. If you think that an administration taking a legal position on the subject of tribal rights, and lack of participation in Alaska's biggest African-American holiday, is proof of racism, then I give up. If words have no meaning, why should I type?
111 - Cindy D
Baronius,
Whoa...I didn't say she was a racist. I almost made a second post to clarify that. But, I thought that repeating what I actually did say was enough. I said:
"She ignores or resents the "other" in her community. She is a usurper of rights (unless you happen to be white)."
In other words, She is fighting to take away rights of the Alaskan natives indigenous to their land (some of the few peoples who were not moved from their original land), while seeking to expand commercial fishing rights (i.e. what white people do, what she does).
She ignores the black community and fails to connect with them. They contact her about concerns and she disregards them not even calling back. She disregards their most important event. One that is traditionally recognized by the Alaskan Governor.
112 - Cindy D
It is also traditional for the Alaska Governor to meet with the Leaders in the Black community.
113 - Cindy D
I found this parody of McCain's responses pretty funny:
It was written by a commenter regarding an entry an the L.A. Times blog called Countdown to Crawford.
Background: As Countdown to Crawford noted in an earlier post, London's Telegraph captured this shift with its headline: "We're All Socialists Now, Comrade."
On Sunday, Fox News' Chris Wallace asked McCain about whether he's as much a socialist as the rest of us.
Palin & McCain: Obama wants to redistribute wealth, so he's a Socialist!!
Wallace: But didn't you vote for the bailout? In essence, a resolution to redistribute tax payers' money to financial institutions and for government to take ownerships of some banks? Isn't that Socialism?
McCain: Yeah, but I HAD to. There was a crisis. We need government to help those who can't help themselves!
Joe Taxpayer: By redistributing my tax dollars to give to banks who are under NO obligation to start lending again? Didn't you say they are the greedy ones who started all this?
McCain: Um, yeah. But Obama wants to change tax laws for the wealthy and redistribute their money for poor people!
Joe Taxpayer: Isn't Obama trying to change the tax laws that allowed corporations to get rich while working families lost their homes?
McCain: I want the government to buy people's homes! That will solve it!
Joe Taxpayer: Government ownership of citizens' homes. Is that considered Socialism?
McCain: Um.... did I say Socialist? I meant... um... Obama is WRONG! And I don't have to explain why! You people with your questions....!
114 - Dr Dreadful
Bliffle @ #109: Powell, Rumsfeld, etc., only supported the invasion after the fact.
As Secretaries of State and Defense respectively, I suspect that Powell and Rumsfeld were the last to learn of the invasion...
115 - Cindy D
Ruvy,
I'm a syndicalist socialist - and always have been.
Anarcho-syndicalism, libertarian socialist, etc. Like the when the kibbutzim were started.
I hope we can chat about that sometime. :-)
116 - moon
Maybe Cindy doesn't want to say that Palin is a racist, but I have no qualms whatsoever about saying that she is.
Never met a gringo that WASN'T.
117 - Jack McEncroe
I served with John McCain and I know him to be a Patriot, an honorable man, courageous under fire, kind and considerate to women, a good father, and a great friend. I base this on a 43 year friendship. I have no idea where you all get your information but Tim Dickinson is misinformed and his claims are baseless.
Thank you,
Jack McEncroe
Former Marine Fighter Pilot
Vietnam 67 - 68