Only in God damn America
First off, you really shouldn't speculate about other people's true inner feelings. How could you know? But then, when you get to running for POTUS and wanting keys to the nukes, we all need to understand you as best we can inside and out. Plus, Barack Hussein Obama is some kind of piece of work. Only in God damn America.…
Article comments
26 - Franco
American slavery designated individuals lessor than because of their DNA. The master could not become the slave on another day. Even after they were "freed" that distinction remained with them and we have the illness in this country that persists because of that.
Even in Africa during the time of the Atlantic trade, there was that type of slavery. It was within a cultural context and not because of ones subhuman status. It was an economic and political designation, not a species re-categorization.
OK, I give you all of that. So if that is the legacy - what is the remedy?
27 - Zedd
Franco,
Thanks.
Time. I think that a lot of AAs need to get comfortable with being considered like everyone. I think that they will have to actually take it upon themselves to figure out what everyone else does (how they "behave" or how they take up space on this planet), In that a lot of their culture/way of being was destroyed and a lot of the culture seems to be a caricature of itself. This does not mean that there isn't a vast intelligentsia and refined class, there is and I am proud to have such people in my life to love and fill my life with.
Whites will have to become comfortable with just being people. Not White people. White Americans are poisoned with White supremacy and it is deeply ingrained. I've stated before just how startling it is to go to Europe and be treated like everyone else (nothing overt just an acceptance or sometimes just being ignored, in a good way). It's jolting at first, as if a joker will appear and tell you that you've entered the twilight zone.
I do think that MTV has changed the younger generation of Whites. They've seen reality shows with Blacks and they are just people (some wimpy, some smart, some lazy, some arrogant..). They have also learned more so how to interpret Black "behavior". Older Whites get it sooooo wrong, seeing anger or hatred where there is none. Growing up on Bush also helps to dispel the notion of Whites being automatically right (or smart) for the younger generation. Also Oprah, Mandela, Powell and Rice being institutions that they've grown up with has to have given them a different world view.
It will more likely be more difficult for AAs than Whites. Especially because Whites will want the healing to occur without any acknowledgement of what the injury is. Also, AAs have been scarred deeply. Whether they are the ultra Republican who goes out of his way to denounce Black images and pop culture and is apologetic for anything that is not White, or the frustrated person who doesn't know what to be mad at so they are just shooting at everything including off the wall conspiracies... and everyone in between. Black Americans will also have to adjust to not tisk tisk-ing at what the larger society does because they will be part of it. That will be an adjustment.
Also, I speak from experience when I say that it will be an major adjustment to cease to think in terms of "I have to do XYorZ so that I am not stereotyped" (in my offline life). WHAT A BURDEN!!!
Sorry I rambled but I hope there was some sense to it. My emotions were more involved than usual so the response is more than likely haphazard.
28 - Zedd
Casey,
Perhaps we should not force matters to make our point.
The discussion is about American slavery and whether it is a Christian act.
You are talking about servitude (we don't know to what degree it was to take place) and the descendants of Canaan (who died off in all of those wars in the old testament and are not Africans at all).
29 - Zedd
Oh Casey,
Everything is known and permitted by God. Because he permits rape doesn't mean that he condones it. Just because he allows for repercussions, doesn't mean he approves of the force that initiates that punishment if it is of human origin.
If we look at chemical reactions, we know the combinations that will result in combustion. Now 200 years ago we weren't as aware as to what precise amounts would cause an explosion to occur and to what degree. It is similar with humans and breaking God's law. Like the physical laws of the universe, there are social laws. We have not evolved to the extent that we can determine exactly what will happen if we do xy or z. Because we are in the "stone age" in terms of our understanding of social/spiritual universal law, we test things out a lot. We cheat on spouses or steal a pencil at work or whatever because we don't see the affects precisely. But the fact that God knows that we do those things doesn't mean that we should do them.
The bible mandates for us to do unto others as we would have them do unto us. It doesn't say enslave your neighbor. It acknowledges slavery it doesn't condone or promote it. But to everyone including slaves it says to be kind and forgiving. You see the bible deals with the inner man, regardless of position. It speaks to him where no one else resides, in his heart. When it says above all else is love, that is not a message for the French only or the Masai or Neptunians :o) of the southern sector, it is a resounding gong for every soul that has or will ever inhabit the universe.
30 - Al Barger
I Peter, Chapter 2:
18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
--------------------
Discuss amongst yourselves
31 - Franco
"Sorry I rambled but I hope there was some sense to it. My emotions were more involved than usual so the response is more than likely haphazard."
Not at all, in fact, better said then almost anything I have ever heard about it.
Zedd, I came up through this whole thing backwards. I grew up in a middle class home in Los Angeles the early 1950’s. My mother would telling anyone that came into our house and used the N word that she did not allow it in her house and she meant it.
During Christmas Eve my folks would always go to the USO in Los Angeles to bring home two service men that had no ware else to go for Christmas. They would intentionally go in the evening after most families had already been down because those till their where SOL. Who do you think were left. Mostly men of color. There were years we had AA’s and other years we had Indians stay with us for Christmas.
They would take my room and I would sleep on the couch. I was always fascinated with their adventures in the military, where they lived and what they liked to do, and I spent a lot of time with them, so much so that my mother used to have to tell me to level them alone so they could have some privacy. My family did not have a lot of money and I was not looking at things from that perspective. That is how I was raised.
As I grew up and experienced the racism around me in shcool and with other friends, I found it harder and harder to make friends with AA’s and saw AA's bag on each other for even associating with me or other whites. I was growing discussed with the whole thing.
Then I witnessed the Los Angeles riots of 1965 followed by the riots of 1992, two riots that covered a span of almost 30 years, the riots of 1992 effected me the most negatively about AA’s.
I watched the utter madness of the AA's striking out aagainst anything and everything living or beathing around them, which included the Korean immigratgets who had established business between these two riots, and I wathced as there hard won efforts went up in flames at the hands of AA’s. This is when my rasicsm, if you can call it that, kicked in and I became angry with AA’s for this. I reasoned that if Koreans could come to this country not knowing even the lauguage, and settle into communities in and around South L.A. and work hard, and they did work hard, and make a better life for themselves, I saw no more excuses why AA’s could not do the same. And for the most part I still feel this way today. So you see, my racism came up on me backwards.
Your comments have helped me to understand it better and see it deeper which I thank you for, I just which AA’s could pick up on it and get on with it.
My folks are long gone and their values are still in my heart, I just don’t know what I can do to help.
32 - Ruvy
Concerning the Old Testament, it would be interesting to hear from Ruvy on this.
The Torah deals primarily with slaves as captives of war, or as people who cannot pay their debts. The second category are Israelites who have chosen to sell themselves into slavery.
The two categories get different treatment, but in the Torah, humane treatment is mandated.
A couple of points to be noted, points which too many non-Jews never even realize. The laws enunciated in the Torah do not apply to non-Jews, aside from converts who live in the Land, except for slaves captured in war.
This is not true for the Christian Book which is meant for the entire world. So, I would suggest that you limit your Biblical references on slavery to the Christian Book, as none of you discussing this issue appear to be Jews.
Our laws do not apply to you at all.
33 - Zedd
Ruvy,
i think the reason you were asked to comment is because the Bible chronicles Hebrews and the laws and culture by which they lived under. Your contribution was relevant to our discussion AND it proved me right (off course :o).
However Ruvy you have to be aware that Hebrews did not live in a vacuum. They were a part of a larger society. They were affected by the cultures and traditions of the cultures that they encountered.
You are correct however that Hebrew law has nothing to do with Christianity.
I am on a Mac..... interesting. Not sure if I'm ready to go all rabid yet.
34 - Franco
Ruvy,
My understanding is that the Tanakh is an acronym of the initial Hebrew letters of the Tanakh's three traditional subdivisions: Torah, Nevi'im and Ketuvim.
Since all the same books contained in the Tahakh are all contained in the Christian Bible and were confirmed by Christ as non changeable, explain what you mean when we you say the laws enunciated in the Torah do not apply to non-Jews. And please explane what you mean by the Christion Book. Are you refering to the part of the Bible called the New Testment that is not in the Tahakh?
I am assuming here that you are in fact aware that all the books in the Tahakh are contained in the Christian Bible. If you are unaware of that then you can not properly answer the question above
35 - Zedd
Franco,
What your parents did was human. It was the right thing to do for themselves (their soul and spirit), the heroes of our nation and for you their children (you).
You have to remember what caused the LA riots. It was after Reagan when everyone was telling Blacks that "its over, get on with it", when they knew "it" wasn't over and job programs for teens had ended and crack and gang violence had taken over those neighborhoods, and immigrants were starting to file in and take the jobs that were traditionally held by Black men. Then, footage of a brutal beating is aired for the entire world to see and the system STILL said "what are you talking about? Nothing happened".
Koreans were given loans to start businesses and many of them were RUDE and antagonistic at that time towards their patrons (not understanding customer service and the cultural issues that were set before). In a lot of countries store owners are extra rude and act as if you are bothering them when you come in. Blacks didn't have normal stores in their neighborhoods and were stuck with THAT service.
When the verdict came in, all hell broke loose. Enough was enough. Franco after 400yrs that was rather mild don't you think?
Also, most of the rioters were teens, not responsible adults, as is frequently the case all over the world (meaning that this was normal for humans to do this... this is what WE humans do and how WE react). So to tag a "race" of people with that behavior that took place over a couple of weeks in one section of a city when they have tolerated more than any other people have faced (over hundreds of years) is sad on your part don't you think?
These things seem glaring to me. I am often shocked as to why they aren't to non-Blacks. Knowing just how hotheaded White American males are about the most ridiculous things (old glory.. help us all), I find it laughable that they dare cast aspersions on a people who really have MUCH much more to "whine" about then they (beyond their most surreal nightmare). It is the dehumanization of others who are not White that makes this phenomenon possible to the extent of being offended (angered actually) when you are being asked to stop hurting a person. YOU call it whining.
36 - Zedd
Ruvy,
We no longer live by laws. We have can do whatever we want. We just know what God does not like and committed Christians seek to please Him so they try to do His will.
We know that we ALL will sin but we attempt not to sin (go against what God wants) and if we do, we ask for forgiveness. Many Christians look at the laws as what was needed in order to protect the Children of Israel so that they would survive as a unit, to the time of the birth of Christ, so that the sacrifice could be made to free all man kind from ritual (laws) and empower him to do the right thing and live free and abundantly.
37 - Zedd
Al #30 means do a good job regardless of how much a jerk your boss is.
Does that help?
38 - Al Barger
Zedd- This conversation seems to turn on postmodern multicultural equivalence or some such foolishness where people just making up crap is to be treated as if it were just as valid as someone actually using rudimentary reason and logic.
No, those verses do not just address having a jerk for a boss. It just plainly by the language does not go with what you say it does. It begins to appear that you just decide what it is you want to believe, and then just insist that facts fit when they don't. You got some epistemological issues there, Sister.
The biggest point of that is the black liberation theology. This hostile anti-whitey nonsense posing as Christian religion is completely a sham. The rants of Rev Wright are absolutely and objectively not reflective of the values of Jesus of Nazareth as in the Bible.
To get what he wants, Rev Wright and his ilk just make up crap and try to put it in Jesus' mouth. Wright's cheesy black nationalist Jesus is pretty much operating on completely opposite principles from the guy in the Bible. That guy in the Bible would not appreciate his supposed ministers damning big swaths of people in his name.
This seems to be the point where the multi-cultural thing is supposed to kick in and I accept that this is a legitimate difference of opinion between two separate but equally valid worldviews. I do not accept separate but equal, however. I will not abuse the black community with the soft bigotry of low expectations. There'll be no segregation in these quarters between black folks and reality.
Look, Reverend Wright is not really a Christian. He's serving himself, not Jesus.
39 - Ruvy
Sorry, Franco,
This will sound elitist because it is. The laws enunciated in the Torah were meant for a people who were to be a priestly people, separate and apart from mankind. That is who the Children of Israel are. My comments reflect that outlook. Hence, my occasional remark here and elsewhere, that the real issue is not what the world owes the Jews or Israel, but rather what we owe you. We most assuredly owe you more than a mere guy nailed up on a cross in "a perfect (human) sacrifice". Once the Redemption has occurred, our work on this planet will have just begun, and it will be hard - but very fulfilling.
The Christian Book, those books that Christians added to the books we use, are supposedly meant for the whole world - that is very much a Christian viewpoint. Christianity is meant as a religion for the entire world to follow, unlike Judaism, and the actions of Christians through the two millennia of its existence has reflected that outlook, from the Crusades a thousand years ago to the near universal copies of your "good news" (a Hebrew term Christians took and twisted) found everywhere.
As Jews, we do not consider the Christian books of any religious value whatsoever. They are of value in that they provide an insight into Judean society two thousand years ago, and contain two important prophecies which appear to be coming true. Beyond that, everything found in the comments of Jesus, can be found in various books of the Tana"kh, from the "unchangeability of the law" (Deuteronomy) to "love your neighbor as you love yourself" (Levticus). The miracles attributed to him can also be found in various books of Prophecy. Read the story of a bald old coot named Elish'á for an example.
What is problematic with Christianity, leaving aside all of its anti-Semitic acts and attitudes, is the idea of a "blood sacrifice of a human being"; the cannibalistic rites (communion or mass) associated with this idea; and the attempt to elevate a mere man to godhood status.
That is the simplest way I can describe all this to you, Franco. I do not censor myself the way Jews writing in exile do, but please believe me that all that I have stated above is not meant to offend, but to clarify and to explain.
40 - Ruvy
Zedd,
We no longer live by laws. We have can do whatever we want. We just know what God does not like and committed Christians seek to please Him so they try to do His will.
Don't delude yourself. You most assuredly do live by law. Read Chapters 18 and 19 of the Book of Leviticus. Taken as a whole, they accurately reflect not only the base of most Jewish law, but the basis of most law in Christian countries as well. It is irrelevant here whether that law (as imposed in Christian countries) originated from Courts of Chancery or from the dictates of Christian kings, or from parliaments pretending to act as secular bodies deliberating law. Chapters 18 and 19 of Leviticus form the base of any lawbook in a Christian country.
Is slavery Christian? That is for you Christians to work out. Is it moral? I suggest not. One of the latest "Opinions From On High" the tsunami that devastated Indonesia and Thailand, hit slave-holding societies with sick senses of morality and loads of sexual exploitation, to boot. But that is only my view.
Is Jeremiah Wrong a good Christian? Is Hagee? Is Rod Parsley? That is for you Christians and ex-Christians to work out. It's not my problem. But I can tell you that none of these men wish Jews anything but death and condemnation, in spite of all of Hagee's money and pretended support of the State, and in spite of all the Jews rushing to suck his money up, thinking that we don't lose our dignity by sucking up to a pig.
41 - Cannonshop
Zedd...
I seem to recall there was a time when there were Black Store-owners. What happened to THEM? I rather suspect that the reason there were only Koreans in those neighbourhoods, is that the gangs and the crime and the poverty, and the riots, ran them out. After all, when a man can move out of a slum, why in hell would he stay? When I was growing up in southern colorado, we had persons of distant african extraction in our community-and they were NOTHING like the Urban Dwellers I've encountered as an adult... they had JOBS, and weren't inclined toward radicalism or criminality-they sure as hell did not glorify it or try to dress it up as "anger". I didn't actually meet either a black, or white, racist until I started living in the city. It occurs to me, that whining and excuse-making, along with creepy conspiracy theories, crosses all colour lines and mostly denotes inability of the self, weakness, and moral cowardice.
Rev. Wright's statements to the National Press Club, and from his pulpit, well... sorry to say it, but it's the kind of whine I'd expect from a white-trash dirtbag with a shaved head and a white robe.
As for the LA riots- it was no "Uprising" it was a RIOT. Uprising, you burn CITY HALL. The police run because they're afraid, and they fear because their lives are in actual danger.
Riot, you burn your own damn neighbourhood to the ground. as the song says, "Tomorrow you're homeless, tonight it's a gas." the LAPD stayed out of the way, and the rioters never came within a mile of attacking a single instrument of the "White Government" that was "Keeping them down".
Not even ONE police station was overrun.
Thinking like Rev. Wright's (reflected in his claims and comments) is the sort that leaves people homeless and perpetuates negative stereotypes into reality.
42 - Zedd
Cannonshop,
I'm a little confused as to what your point is.
I find it bewildering that you didn't focus at all on the reason(s) for the riots. Why?
Your comments were even more confusing. Are you saying that the legitimacy of the riots is diminished because the police didn't run? It was a spontaneous eruption of frustration. Just as Rodney Kings beating was not a planned torture, the response to it as not a planned "uprising". Why are you making an issue of that anyway. Again, look at news coverage over time all over the world, people burn down shops in their neighborhoods. Its a "normal" thing. I think your point is that Blacks are not normal. SORRY, they are. Their situation is not however. Let's all give them an ovation for dealing with it so well.
You don't understand what Rev. Right said. You obviously don't know what leaves people homeless. Do some reading. Your comments are embarrassing. You want to skip the scholarly path and just pop off because the subject is about Blacks and you think its easy. Knowledge is knowledge. Whether its about Shakespeare, the Ming Dynasty or contemporary issues. You clearly are ignorant of the subject matter. Help us all and bring something worth while to the discussion.
43 - Zedd
Ruvy,
I would think that you would be resigned in this matter. You are good at telling people that they don't understand Judaism, well the same is true about you and Christianity.
You and Rev Wright have a lot in common. You hear Farakan and loose it. Pull it together.
44 - Franco
Ruvy,
"please believe me that all that I have stated above is not meant to offend, but to clarify and to explain."
I believe you Ruvy, no offence taken.
Given your perspective and knowledge of Judaism and Torah, I would like to ask you an important question.
In the following verses from Torah in Devarim ( Deuteronomy), G-d Himself is speaking to Moses and through him, to the children of Israel about the coming of a special Prophet.
Devarim / Deuteronomy 18:15
“The LORD thy G-d will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;”
Then 3 lines later G-d seems to repeat himself.
Devarim / Deuteronomy 18:18
18 “I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.”
G-d repeats to Moses some of what He had said in verse 15, but the difference is instructive! Verse 15 says, "a Prophet like me (meaning like G-d Himself), while verse 18 says, "a Prophet like you" (meaning like Moses)
So then this prophet G-d is promising to Moses, that will come from among the brethren, will be both divine like G-d, and human like Moses. Most importantly, God promises to put His words in this special Prophet's mouth. The prophet will then repeat every word G-d commands the profit to say to his brethren. And G-d makes clear the brethren must take head of these words and if they don’t they will have to answer for it to G-d himself, and I it dose not sound like that is going to be pleasent.
Would you tell me who this profit was or who he is to be?
45 - Ruvy
Franco,
There is no specific prophet referred to in these verses, according to our sages. There is a concept being explained of how to test a prophet. And you have the Hebrew wrong, by the way. This entire book is Moses speaking to the Children of Israel before he dies.
D'varim 15:15 naví mikribkhá me'aHíkha k'moní yakím l'khá....
A prophet from among you from your brothers like me shall be caused to arise among you (or to you, a more exact, if inaccurate, rendering)....
Moses was a prophet, and he is describing in clear Hebrew, "a prophet ... like me" which he repeats a few lines later, at D'varím 15:18, this time quoting HASHEM, to drive the point home.
But Franco, this is about some black preacher isn't much of a Christian, not how we Jews test a prophet for his validity.
46 - Franco
Ruvy,
I know I got off track there in my interest for your account on those references. And I thank you for indulging me with your answer Ruvy.
Getting back on track now, as far as preacher Wright not being much of a Christian, I think given the indulgence of our last communiqué, it is better to let both Jewish and Christian scripture answer that.
The scriptures talk about a period in ancient Israel when God's people had no king and "every man did that which was right in his own eyes" (Shoftim / Judges 21:25).
As the population grew more corrupt, they sought a leader just like the black community does today. Saul became their king, and he followed and enabled the will of the corrupt nation over the will of his Creator.
The way back for black America is as it was for the early Israelites: They must forgive and turn away from their sins and wicked leaders. Free men and women, once people have been forgiven, their hearts are healed, their minds are free, and they are able to see clearly the path ahead.
You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? Matthew 7:16
47 - Al Barger
Amen. Preach it, Brother Franco!
48 - Franco
Al,
The boogie man came calling
I said I wasn't home
he didn't believe me
he wasn't alone
he had my number
he got my goat
he bought my ticket
he paid off my note
and he left in a hurry
said he couldn't stay
I guess he had his reasons
I'm not the one to say
I keep my distance
as best I can
living out my time here in Never Never land
I can't grow up
'cause I'm too old now
Lets go chase tornadoes
just me and you
you don't often catch 'em
but man when you do
just take their catch rope
and crawl out on the wing
we won't come down 'till we own that thing
then we'll sit out on the front porch
quiet as a mouse
one last time before they close on the house
James McMurtry 1997