When a party has forgotten the values it stands for it's time for a wake-up call from history.
Today the Republican Party is at a crossroads. It faces the choice of continuing down a path of failed leadership and forgotten principles, or taking the hard and rutted road back to its beginnings. The party was founded to restore the values of our founding fathers in a time when those values had been forgotten.…
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26 - Dave Nalle
rather than just shrieking distractions and deprecations of their opposition
Says the chief shrieker.
Look, sure I have ideology. Who doesn't. My ideology is clear and hardly hidden. I believe in the greatest freedom for individuals possible with a minimal government primarily focused on protecting the rights and safety of individuals and providing those few services which cannot be effectively provided by other means. Simple.
Then there's the real world, where all sorts of forces work against the kind of simple, equitable system I believe in. To me the inimical forces seem to break down into two sorts of threats, those which are deliberate and intentional and promoted by people who are ideologically opposed to liberty and those which are more inadvertent, resulting from the actions of people who may believe in liberty but who are venal and corrupt and allow things to go wrong because they are self-serving or just don't care.
I guess I run into problems with people like Gonzo who profess to believe in many of the same things which I do, but who focus all their attention on the venal and corrupt while ignoring the ideologically dangerous. This seems like a terrible mistake to me and I assume it comes from some sort of partisanship, because otherwise it's awfully hard to explain.
Corruption, incompetence and political ambition seem to me like a recurring but managable problem, while the efforts of those who want to do away with our basic principles of government seem much more dangerous and hard to reverse if they are successful.
Yet European countries are still democracies, still free.
And I would argue that when the government maintains police whose job is specifically to arrest people for working overtime the society is no longer free.
Dave
27 - gonzo marx
wasn't talking about, to to you, Vox...
but it's awfully cute to have such a rabid fanboi
Excelsior?
28 - Dave Nalle
I was just picking up from where you attacked me on another thread, gonzer.
Dave
29 - Clavos
Whew!
That's pretty heavy!
Heh...
Not knowing much about heavy metal, watching that video I felt "Perdido."
30 - gonzo marx
for #29 - "Drifting"
for Vox - "attacked"?
lmgdao
you will know if i ever *attack* by the visit to the emergency room...you, Vox , are not worth the effort
Excelsior?
31 - gonzo marx
sorry...forgot to touch on a point...
Vox sez - "while the efforts of those who want to do away with our basic principles of government seem much more dangerous and hard to reverse if they are successful."
the differences are exemplified in that i think the evidence has shown the last seven years (with pre-emptive war, warrantless wiretaps and some other Issues) have done a lot of tangible damage to those "basic principles of government" than the conspiracy theorist unproven assertions made about the opposing Party
do i want Hillary as POTUS...ummm, no
i actually don't have ANY dog in this current election Hunt...none have Impressed me yet
i may not have someone i would like to vote for, but i am certain there is always someone i will be happy to vote against
nuff said...
Excelsior?
32 - Clavos
Wow!!
Andy Mckee is WAY cool!
Thanks, gonzo.
33 - Dave Nalle
I hate it when I write a lovely response and then accidentally close the browser window. I'll try to write it up again in short form.
the differences are exemplified in that i think the evidence has shown the last seven years (with pre-emptive war, warrantless wiretaps and some other Issues) have done a lot of tangible damage to those "basic principles of government"
All of this stuff you're so concerned about has been done under rogue executive authority. It's all reactive, special circumstance, cobbled together opportunism. That gives it zero permanence. It ends the moment Bush steps out of office if the next president doesn't choose to follow in his footsteps, and if anything it's likely to lead to a negative reaction which will ultimately limit executive authority or cause future presidents to tread lightly. It has no permanent presence in law whatsoever. Making it your primary focus is like going after jaywalkers while ignoring the armed robbery going on at the corner store.
What you should be worried about is the laws like PATRIOT and REAL ID which have strong bipartisan support and which take away our rights by law and with the enthusiastic backing of lawmakers of both parties. They are the model for what is to come in the future. There's some hope that Bush's Supreme Court nominees will strike some of this stuff down, of course. But my bet is that there's more to come.
than the conspiracy theorist unproven assertions made about the opposing Party
In case you've forgotten, the opposing party has a documented record of beliefs and past performance in government for us to work from, and the picture ain't pretty.
i may not have someone i would like to vote for, but i am certain there is always someone i will be happy to vote against
On that we can agree. We're always picking the lesser of two evils. What worries me is that you don't seem to be able to tell that evil written into law is much more dangerous than evil practiced as a limited aberation.
Dave
34 - gonzo marx
you should stick to reading what i type, and not trying to mindread
just because i didn't list PATRIOT and a host of other bits of bullshit passed this millenium doesn't mean i'm not VERY concerned with them...as anyone who has read my typings around here would most likely be Aware of...
it's interesting that Vox sez - "In case you've forgotten, the opposing party has a documented record of beliefs and past performance in government for us to work from, and the picture ain't pretty."
right after trying to sell - "It's all reactive, special circumstance, cobbled together opportunism. That gives it zero permanence. It ends the moment Bush steps out of office if the next president doesn't choose to follow in his footsteps, and if anything it's likely to lead to a negative reaction which will ultimately limit executive authority or cause future presidents to tread lightly."
tell the dead soldiers it has no "permanence"
and you are in complete denial if you put baseless Faith in - " There's some hope that Bush's Supreme Court nominees will strike some of this stuff down, of course."
they will most likely uphold everything W did, as well as everything they can to advance the Agenda of their partisan Ideology...i'd like to give Roberts the benefit of the Doubt...but i wouldn't bet a nickel on it
you see, i consider the past 7 years indicative and informative of the present GOP stance/platform/policy
and while i don't find much i trust about the Dems, i sure as fuck don't buy into the tin foil hat conspiracy theorist shyte about some kind of secret socialist plan...
thinking the Dems are "socialists" is just about as false as thinking the GOP are "fascist"...both claims utterly ridiculous
so, unless some Candidate pops up that fulfills my basic Criteria for wanting to give them my Vote...i will most likely just go by voting AGAINST the policies and track record of the last 7 years, which i consider harmful to our Republic, and dangerous to "We the People" in many ways
i'm not willing nor able to set aside the Facts of the current Administration, or the GOP leadership in House and Senate, and some of the Democrats for their Responsibility or Culpability...for all the claims that it has no "permanence"
like watching the upcoming fight over FISA, with W wanting to make certain the telecoms can't ever be held legally liable ...there's more...like the Fact that Reid is possibly the worst Senate leader in History..at least ineffectual and incompetent...Pelosi is fucked as well...neither can control even their own caucus much less the Floor
i'll stick with reacting to the known and proven over the conspiracy and speculative
your mileage may vary...
Excelsior?
35 - Dave Nalle
just because i didn't list PATRIOT and a host of other bits of bullshit passed this millenium doesn't mean i'm not VERY concerned with them...as anyone who has read my typings around here would most likely be Aware of...
It's not unreasonable to conclude that the things you actually mention are the things you're most concerned about, and they all center around Bush.
tell the dead soldiers it has no "permanence"
What a weak, cheap and totally dishonest response.
they will most likely uphold everything W did, as well as everything they can to advance the Agenda of their partisan Ideology...i'd like to give Roberts the benefit of the Doubt...but i wouldn't bet a nickel on it
As someone pointed out on another thread, judges appointed by the GOP tend to be ideological but not partisan, and since that ideology is strict adherence to the Constitution, that ought to give us some hope.
you see, i consider the past 7 years indicative and informative of the present GOP stance/platform/policy
Despite every indication that such is not the case. See, this is why I call you 'partisan' so often. You assume that Bush IS the GOP, when the diversity of the party has been amply demonstrated in the defections from his camp and the diversity of the presidential lineup.
and while i don't find much i trust about the Dems, i sure as fuck don't buy into the tin foil hat conspiracy theorist shyte about some kind of secret socialist plan...
It's hardly a conspiracy theory when they write it into their party platform and trumpet it accross the media and the internet. Conspiracies are secret, remember.
thinking the Dems are "socialists" is just about as false as thinking the GOP are "fascist"...both claims utterly ridiculous
Not sure I exactly called them 'socialists' though they are certainly more socialistic than the GOP.
so, unless some Candidate pops up that fulfills my basic Criteria for wanting to give them my Vote...i will most likely just go by voting AGAINST the policies and track record of the last 7 years, which i consider harmful to our Republic, and dangerous to "We the People" in many ways
So you gleefully leap out of the frying pan into the fire.
i'm not willing nor able to set aside the Facts of the current Administration, or the GOP leadership in House and Senate, and some of the Democrats for their Responsibility or Culpability...for all the claims that it has no "permanence".
So you'd rather hold an irrational grudge against a whole party because of the actions of a small faction than try to find a way to put the nation on the right course.
like watching the upcoming fight over FISA, with W wanting to make certain the telecoms can't ever be held legally liable
You've got to respect the man for that, don't you.
...there's more...like the Fact that Reid is possibly the worst Senate leader in History..at least ineffectual and incompetent...Pelosi is fucked as well...neither can control even their own caucus much less the Floor
And thank god for that given some of the beliefs Pelosi has espoused in the past. Reid is just a nonentity.
i'll stick with reacting to the known and proven over the conspiracy and speculative
Speculative only to those who don't read the papers, listen to the debates or have any awareness of history.
Dave
36 - gonzo marx
well now...
this is one of the main points of demarcation right here - "Despite every indication that such is not the case. See, this is why I call you 'partisan' so often. You assume that Bush IS the GOP, when the diversity of the party has been amply demonstrated in the defections from his camp and the diversity of the presidential lineup."
did you miss where i say i also hold the GOP leaders in the House and Senate as well as some of the Dems responsible for their aiding and abetting the shyte that this Administration has perpetrated?
you must have missed it...look over it again, and you might see the difference between what i typed and what you "thought"
as for the rest, the Record, even in this thread alone, speaks for itself
Excelsior?
37 - Dave Nalle
No, I didn't miss it, gonzo. You added it as an afterthought from what I could tell. Your focus - the first target you aimed at - was and always is Bush.
And yes, the record is quite obvious.
Dave
38 - gonzo marx
the "added it as an afterthought" is just more of your delusional attempts at mind reading
all the words i type belong there
at least we Agree it's obvious...
Excelsior?
39 - troll
gonzo said: *thinking the Dems are "socialists" is just about as false as thinking the GOP are "fascist"...both claims utterly ridiculous*
ridiculous as truth so often is...even when packed in excelsior
40 - troll
the problem with voting 'against' is that your vote ends up counted 'for'
now a boycott on the other hand.....
41 - bliffle
A problem with the republican party is that it has a natural attraction for the Royalists who would like to put the King back on his throne. The Real Unitary Executive, if you will.
42 - Dave Nalle
Except that it's the GOP which has pushed for term limits more than any other party, and I know of no one who wants to keep any of our presidents around for any longer than we have to.
Dave
43 - Dave Nalle
For that matter, we didn't elect Jimmy Carter as our ambassador to the world for life. Why won't he just go away?
Dave
44 - Dr Dreadful
Cheap shot, Dave.
Let me assure you that the world does not view Carter as representative of the US.
That honor, unfortunately, goes to George W Bush.
45 - Clavos
Either one's a lousy rep.
Another cheap shot, Doc, but I speak from direct personal knowledge. I knew him personally (and not just a quick meeting; we were both part of a committee that worked on an Atlanta festival when he was governor).
I knew Rosalind, too; she was on the same committee. She is (or was) great, but there's something sort of creepy about him; he's SO goody two shoes he made my skin crawl.
46 - Dr Dreadful
Another cheap shot (since we're taking them):
Yeah, there admittedly is something weird about a guy with that many teeth who isn't Mormon...
47 - justoneman
News Flash Holly Wood
Jimmy Carter will be playing Goober (NOT Gomer) in the remake of Mayberry RFD...
JOM
48 - REMF
"I knew Rosalind, too; she was on the same committee. She is (or was) great, but there's something sort of creepy about him; he's SO goody two shoes he made my skin crawl."
But had he massacred 109 infants, women, children and old men in 'Nam, you'd be more comfortable with him...?
49 - Martin Lav
As long as he didn't smile when he did it.