It’s time for the Jews in America to tell the Israelis straight from the heart: you’re not proper Jews.
Here we go again, with Israel blowing innocent Lebanese children to hamburger, in a so-called “defensive” war against Hezbollah.…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - pleasexcusetheinteruption12
#22 If Muslims continue the conflict because they believe the creation of Israel was unjustified, then wouldnt the validity of that claim be relevant?
27 - Dean
SKI -- Have you been asleep since 1967?
28 - SFC SKI
#26, a main part of the conflict is that certain Muslims are trying to make Israel disappear, and that is what the Isrealis are resisting, to put it in a simplified form. So far, this is largely a stalemate. So what should be done about it? Short of convincing every Israeli to relocate, the only ohter way is to convince the Arabs to stop trying to eradicate Israel and come to some type of agreement that is does exist and will continue to exist, and what shape it will exist in and how it will be treated.
#27, Dean ,you are either a troll or willfully ignorant. You state Isreal should stay within the pre 1967 borders, and I make a reference to the wars that occurred while Israel was inside those borders. You then ask if I have been asleep, as though I was unaware of events in that part of the world. What's your point?
29 - Dean
If war fails to solve the decades-old Middle East conflict, what options are Israel and the United States left with?
On March 29, 2006, Arab leaders from 18 countries repeated their Land-for-Peace Offer. a four-year-old land-for-peace offer to Israel. Under the proposal, the Arab states would offer diplomatic recognition and trade in exchange for a full Israeli withdrawal from land occupied in the 1967 war.
Israel has rejected the offer.
The United States remained silent.
The conclusion is the Middle East conflict stays alive until either the United States or Israel changes its position.
30 - SFC SKI
It always amazes me when I see people advance the argument that if Isareal only made one more concession, peace would reign. Israel left Lebanon, and withdrew from Gaza, and had it not been attacked again recently, might have made more Land-for-Peace deals.
At the same time, Hizbollah and others have continued to attack Israel, with almost no condemnation from any Arab leaders.
Another thing, if these 18 Arab leaders guaranteed peace if their offer was accepted, does that mean they condone actions taken against Israel due to its rejection?
31 - Martin Lav
The problem with the Israeli's is that they all believe that the Arab's are dirty filthy dogs lying in wait to kill them all. Once you believe this, how can you negotiate?
32 - SFC SKI
How do you negotiate with people whose stated goal is to destroy you?
Martin, I don't know that many Israelis, but I don't see them running into the streets to celebrate the deaths of Arab civilians, nor have I read any Israeli articles stating that the highest achievement an Israeli can aspire to is martyrdom for the cause of Zionism. I'd like to see some references for your assertion that Israelis consider all Arabs to be filthy dogs waiting to kill them.
Considering that Israel has some form of diplomatic relations with some Arab nations, and that there are in fact a large number of Arabs trying and succeding in killing Israelis, I'd say the Israelis world view is neither so black and white, nor is it mere unfounded paranoia.
33 - Martin Lav
It's stated over and over and over on all these posts as well as on any news excerpt from Israel. That arabs groups and even nations have one goal and one goal only and that's the destruction of Israel. Additionally, the thought of a person strapping a bomb to themselves and going and killing innocents along with themselves all in the name of our common God, the Father of Abraham, is in itself considered inhuman or non-human. People of the western world and Israel can't fathom such a thing and indisputable cast all followers of this sort of thinking as some primordial thinking or act.
No more worthy than a junkyard dog. Spewee....
34 - Dean
SKI
"I'd say the Israelis world view is neither so black and white, nor is it mere unfounded paranoia."
The Israeli view is that it wants to control all the land it calls "Greater Israel".
This means they have to subjugate or drive out the current occupants.
35 - The Fifth Dentist
No I think they're willing to give back about 90% of the west bank and give the palestinians some other land to make up the difference. A lot of Palestinians would go for that deal. Unfortunately it seems that you need the unanimous consent of the entire moslem world in order to have peace. As that's not going to happen, why fucking bother.
36 - The Fifth Dentist
Oh, by the way, Osama bin Laden says he wants Spain back as an islamic country. According to Islam, any country that was once Islamic, is Islamic for ever. So should the Spanish government try to negotiate or just capitulate. I assume you feel that the Madrid subway attacks was the opening offer.
37 - Martin Lav
And you are an expert on Islam?
According to Islam.....
Or according to some Islamic fascist?
I would agree that Islamic leaders need to step up and open their fucking mouths and denounce as well as pronounce what it is they stand for.
The Jewish Religious leaders should do the same and then so shall the Christians. If this is a religious problem, then it should be solved by religious leaders and since all these religions share the same father of Abraham, then let the nations step aside and listen to the religious leaders and then, let's negotiate. I for one don't think that negotiating with bombs or missiles is doing the trick.
It's like pulling teeth, eh Dentist?
38 - The Fifth Dentist
Martin:
You're absolutely right, I'm no expert on Islam. Moreover, let me volunteer that I'm no expert on Judaism, Christianity, or any other religion. I know enough about all of them to know that they're all equally worthless bullshit. I particularly love the religions that claim that they have a direct line to god, that their book contains his word verbatim, and that all other religions are blasphemy. Oh, I guess that includes them all. It is shocking to me that major universities still offer degrees in divinity. In my opinion, they might just as well offer degrees in astrology or masturbation.
Ultimately, however, I believe that this dispute is more tribal than religious. It's very simple. Two groups want the same fucking piece of land. Both have nice historical claims. If the dividing line between these groups wasn't religious it would be racial. If it wasn't racial, it would be lingusistic. Look at the Serbs and Croats: the same religion (christian) and the same language (serbo-croation) didn't prevent them from committing genocide. (BTW: I'm aware that the Croats are Roman Catholic and the Serbs are Orthodox. Big fucking whoop.)
War, or the threat of war is how international disputes have always been settled and will always be settled. You want achieve your historical claims? Build a fucking army. Actually build a fucking country first. You don't go about it by blowing up a fucking nightclub in Indonesia. That's the only new wrinkle in this whole thing the shortcut attempt to fight in such a way that nobody can hit back at you. It's a strategy that makes a lot of sense if your group is pathetic, disorganized, and weak. The problem is that once you start fighting wars this way the dispute is never going to be settled. As you can see, they never end.
39 - Martin Lav
Then it is like pulling teeth.
It's like the movie War Games and Tic Tac Toe
there are no winners.....
40 - The Fifth Dentist
I don't see this one ending any time soon. I thought the Israelis were onto something with the concept of unilateral disegagement. It seemed like a winner until Hezbollah demonstrated the counter-strategy: missiles. It should have been obvious all along really.
41 - Triniman
A long time ago, the Arabs should have realized that Israel was here to stay. It cannot be defeated militarily. Imagine how further ahead the entire region could have been if the efforts that were put into trying to extinguish Israel were put towards education and economic development, giving people something to live for, rather than the loser's course of having nothing to live for and inciting hatred towards the tiny, tiny strip of land known as Israel. On a per capita basis, Arabs actually have the highest standard of living in Israel, compared to the rest of the Arab world. A safe and prosperous Israel should mean a safe and prosperous middle east. That's still my long term hope. I said LONG term.
42 - Dean
Triniman:
"On a per capita basis, Arabs actually have the highest standard of living in Israel, compared to the rest of the Arab world."
If the billions of dollars sent to Israel by American taxpayers had been used to raise the standard of living in the West Bank and Gaza, instead of building illegal settlements, those living there would likely be as peaceful as their counterparts in Israel.
That's what happens when our politicians give away our money with no accountability.
43 - The Fifth Dentist
"If the billions of dollars sent to Israel by American taxpayers had been used to raise the standard of living in the West Bank and Gaza, instead of building illegal settlements, those living there would likely be as peaceful as their counterparts in Israel."
To recap, the current crisis was initiated when Israel was attacked by shiites from lebanon. This isn't about the west bank? Hezbollah wants to eliminate Israel. They don't give a shit about the West Bank except maybe as stage 1 in the elimination of Israel. They state this explicitly. Do you think they're joking?
44 - Then
Its time 4 American Jews to disassociate with its Israel's policy.Its not anti semitism to criticsize Israel.But when organization like AIPAC have hijacked & brainwash the US govt.How can the US changed its stance?
Criticisizing Israel is not equal to anti semitism
AIPAC make sures USA supports Israel no matter what happen.Only American Jews can weaken AIPAC.Once the AIPAC hijack have been removed,the US govt can be a honest player in the peace process.
If Israel goes back to 67 borders,release prisoners,& share Jerusalem with the Palestinians.There could be peace.What about the West Bank Jewish settlers?..go back to Israel proper or they could apply for Palestinian citizenship.
Ismail Haniyeh said once,"we dont wish to throw the jews into the sea".
As for now,Hezbollah should continue to fight the IDF.Iran & Syria should continue backing it.As long the IDF fight,we fight till martydoom
45 - Les Slater
I think this has been the most serious discussion on the subject so far. A lot of soul searching.
It's a beginning. There is hope.
46 - Apollo
I had no Idea that the dhimmi propagandist was Jewish himself.
Looks like he has had a nervous breakdown about the whole world out to get the jews and he is trying to appease his detractors. This is called "stockholm syndrome".
Wake up Adam the "whole" world is not out there to get the jews. The Indians, chinese, Japanese, koreans, non-muslim south east asians, red indians, eskimoes DO NOT have anything against the jew and we make up more than half the world.
47 - Dean
Fifth dentist:
"Hezbollah wants to eliminate Israel. They don't give a shit about the West Bank except maybe as stage 1 in the elimination of Israel. They state this explicitly. Do you think they're joking?"
You have it reversed.
At the end of the six day war in 1967, Ariel Sharon said, "We have peace - a piece of Egypt, a piece of Jordan, a piece of Syria, a piece of Lebanon."
Asked what he would do with the Palestinians on the West Bank which was occupied by 1.2 million Palestinians, Sharon said, "We will make a pastrami sandwich out of them - we will put settlements through them so that in 25 years they will be no more."
These statements preclude any semblance of adhering to international law or expectation of peace. This Israeli attitude, which is the source of terrorism, can exist only with the complicity and support of weak politicians in the United States..
To confirm this, Sharon has said, "We own America".
Therein lies the problem for America.
48 - The Fifth Dentist
Dean:
The actual Sharon quote about the pastrami sandwich was:
"We'll insert a strip of Jewish settlements in between the Palestinians, and then another strip of Jewish settlements right across the West Bank, so that in twenty-five years' time, neither the United Nations nor the United States, nobody, will be able to tear it apart." He did not say (as you incorrectly claim) that in 25 years "they will be no more." Your misquotation conveniently makes it sound like the plan was to eliminate the Palestinians rather than make it impossible to give back the West Bank. Can you please explain why you felt the need to alter this quote? (BTW: Sharon wound up ordering the dismantling of a lot of these settlements so it's kind of a moot point anyway.)
The much more offensive part of your argument is your statement that "the Israeli attitude" is "the source of terrorism." Wow. So the actual purveyors of terrorism (hezbollah and al qaida) are presumably not the "source" of it. Since you apparently believe that terrorism is justified by Israeli actions, can I you ask you to specify more clearly which targets are justifiable? Is it just Israelis or are jews in Buenos Aires fair game as well? Are Americans fair targets? Are Europeans? Are old people in wheel chairs on Mediterranean cruises? Are olympic athletes? Are people on the subway in Madrid or London? Are people in nightclubs in Bali? Please delineate whom it is o.k. for them to kill and whom it is not. I assume that you consider yourself and your family on the exempt list.
49 - Dean
Hezbollah and Hamas didn't exist before the 1980's.
Go figure.
50 - Baronius
Dean, Israel's big problem is that every time they're attacked by their neighbors, they end up gaining more land. You can't blame them for that. As for Sharon's comments, leaders can say anything they want. If everything every leader said was true, Khrushchev would have buried us.
I assume that Adam was trying to be offensive by using the term Nazi.
"Where are the Muslims supposed to go?" The oil-producing countries of the Mideast are desperate for workers. They bring in Muslims, Hindus, and Christians from East Asia. If they wanted to, they could absorb the population of Palestine in a week. But they believe it's in their interest to keep the crisis going.
51 - Dean
"Israel's big problem is that every time they're attacked by their neighbors, they end up gaining more land."
Not quite.
Israel gained most of its land by starting the 1967 war. Israeli Mirage jets flew low over the Mediterranean Sea and attacked the Egyptian Air Force on the ground. With air superiority, it was easy to wind up the war in six days.
They ended up gaining more land according to their plan for "Greater Israel" under Israeli control.
52 - Baronius
In 1967, Syria had been regularly attacking Israel on the ground and increasingly in the air. Egypt drove out the UN peacekeepers along the border, and took over their positions. Lebanon, Iraq, Syria, and Egypt entered into a military treaty and were mobilizing. Nasser announced that the time for talking was over. If there ever was a justifiable preemptive strike, it was in 1967.
53 - Les Slater
Fifth Dentist #48
"The much more offensive part of your argument is your statement that 'the Israeli attitude' is 'the source of terrorism.'"
Not attitude, but the fact of its existence and the history of its actions.
"Since you apparently believe that terrorism is justified by Israeli actions"
Cause is not the same as justification.
"Is it just Israelis or are jews in Buenos Aires fair game as well? Are Americans fair targets? Are Europeans? Are old people in wheel chairs on Mediterranean cruises? Are olympic athletes? Are people on the subway in Madrid or London? Are people in nightclubs in Bali? Please delineate whom it is o.k. for them to kill and whom it is not."
I do not think such actions will settle the issue or enhance the cause of the people of Palestine.
Neither will a militia firing crude rockets into northern Israel. It's going to take a massive, serious, political campaign.
"I assume that you consider yourself and your family on the exempt list."
I don't think any of us are immune from this. Witness the World Trade Towers.
Israel is only part of the problem. The root cause is imperialism's attempt to forge the whole world to their liking.
This will be resisted. The resistance will not always be pretty.
Until we stop this imperial monster terrorism will affect us all. The WTT is the roosters coming home to roost.
54 - gazelle
I am friend to a many jews muslims and christians... and i am anti-israel (regime) on human, humanistic and religious grounds, like many jews muslims and christians.
best
55 - Joan Bias
The root problem is, of course, religion. As long as people are willing to believe ridiculous things without demanding proof, they are capable of anything. The ridiculous things Jews, Muslims, and Christians believe are mutually exclusive, they are literally killing each other over them, and they will someday undoubtedly kill me and you too as the spread of technology makes nukes available to any freak with a vengeful god in his imagination. The time for casting this dogma aside is long past, and I fear there's just no way our civilization can continue in this way.
Believing in gods is ignorant and dangerous. Cut it out, please.
56 - The Fifth Dentist
#53
Les:
Terrorism is an illegitimate tactic -- not the logical result of some perceived injustice. If you think otherwise, then you're justifying it as a tactic. The existence of Israel is not the cause of terrorism because the removal of Israel would not end terrorism. Individuals and groups always have some agenda. There is nothing that the United States or Israel can do to completely eliminate the use of terrorism as a tactic. Any country or group with a perceived grievance can engage in it if they choose to do so.
This is not to say that the Palestinians don't have legitimate grievances. Unfortunately, the tactics that many who purport to be on their side have chosen, have actually made it impossible to settle the conflict. This is because if you make concessions to terrorists, you invite more terrorism and you justify their murders. Moreover, I think a lot of people want this conflict to continue indefinitely because it serves their purposes. There is nothing like perpetual warfare to preserve the status quo. (See, Orwell.)
57 - Les Slater
Fifth Dentist #56
"Terrorism is an illegitimate tactic -- not the logical result of some perceived injustice."
It's much more complicated than that. Terrorism is not just a tactic but to some a strategy. It will not succeed.
The U.S. and its allies will accuse everybody that is resisting as a terrorist. We need to be careful not to overuse this terminology.
There certainly is terror being used by all sides. In this war the terror of Israel is too obvious to ignore.
"The existence of Israel is not the cause of terrorism"
It is one of the causes but not the root.
"the removal of Israel would not end terrorism."
True, but it would register a momentous change of the political landscape. Since terrorism would not have been the reason for Israel's demise then there will be a sobering reevaluation of not only tactics but strategy.
"Moreover, I think a lot of people want this conflict to continue indefinitely because it serves their purposes. There is nothing like perpetual warfare to preserve the status quo."
This is the primary role that Israel plays. Israel does not exist for the sake of itself.
58 - The Fifth Dentist
"The U.S. and its allies will accuse everybody that is resisting as a terrorist. We need to be careful not to overuse this terminology."
I agree. I've never seen a legal definition of terrorism that didn't tautologically use the word "illegal" in attempting to define it.
Christopher Hitchens on Slate wrote the best explanation that I've seen: To summarize, he says that terrorism is "to demand the impossible at gunpoint."
In applying this definition to al qaida, Hitchens wrote that it demands that western societies "acknowledge their loathsome blasphemy and realize their own fitness for destruction" and that muslim societies "adopt 17th-century norms of clerical absolutism" though "a program of indiscriminate attacks on the civilian population of both."
59 - Dean
"Christopher Hitchens on Slate wrote the best explanation that I've seen: To summarize, he says that terrorism is "to demand the impossible at gunpoint."
No analogy is perfect, but George Washington was told he was demanding the impossible at gunpoint.
So much for Christopher.
How about "terrorism" is a tactic used when the opponent has overwhelmingly superior military power.
60 - SFC SKI
Dean states correctly that the Israelis did strike first in 1967. He neglects to mention that this was in response to obvious preparations for war by Syria and Egypt. Both countries enjoyed numerical superiority of forces over Israel. Would it have been better to let Israel be attacked first, and then fought a last stand outside of Tel Aviv? As it was, the fighting caused significant losses for the Israelis, especially in the Golan Heights.
61 - Dean
Nasser was known to be a blowhard politician with no proven intention of starting a war with Israel.
On the other hand, Israel was looking for a way to get to "Greater Israel", and took advantage of the opportunity,
62 - Greg
Israel has no problem recognizing Palestine's right to exist. The problem is that Palestine doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist. Remember, the Israeli Prime Minister assured President Clinton that he would Arafat everything he wanted. But, he wouldn't give Arafat the thing that he wanted the most--the death of the Jews and the death of Israel.
63 - Dean
Israel has no problem recognizing Palestine's right to exist except that it doesn't want to implement UN Resolutions which the Palestinians accept.
Israel has been able to dictate its own version of international law because politicians in the United States have been bought.
"Palestine doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist."
What a joke.
What will they do after getting back ALL their land?
Send out more adolescents to throw stones at 60-ton tanks?
64 - The Fifth Dentist
[Entire comment deleted]
65 - Dean
[Entire comment deleted]
66 - Dean
All I said was it would have been nice if my post had actually been responded to
[Edited]
67 - jack e. jett
up until now, i never thought of israelites as terrorist.
terrorist are the ones who kill, savage young children. so isreal is like a country full of jeffry dahmers.
are they free to come and go in america? hope not.
jack jett
68 - Baronius
Dean, every country remembers its largest historical size. There will always be a nationalistic element that wants to return a country to its "authentic borders". Check out the maps of greater Greece and greater Turkey some time: it's not just that they overlap; they're basically the same. Don't confuse such declarations with national policy.
So why would Israel be interested in the Golan Heights and in southern Lebanon, if not for restoring Greater Israel? Because every time these areas have been occupied by another government, they've been used as staging areas.
It really bugs me that you see the 1967 War as unprovoked. Big deal; you bother some guy you've never met. But conceding nothing doesn't help your argument. Is there anything, ever, that Israel has been justified in doing?
69 - Dean
“The general parameters of a long-term, two-state agreement are well known. There will be no substantive and permanent peace for any peoples in this troubled region as long as Israel is violating key U.N. resolutions, official American policy and the international "road map" for peace by occupying Arab lands and oppressing the Palestinians. Except for mutually agreeable negotiated modifications, Israel's official pre-1967 borders must be honored. As were all previous administrations since the founding of Israel, U.S. government leaders must be in the forefront of achieving this long-delayed goal.”
-- Jimmy Carter 8/1/06
Unfortunately, Jimmy didn’t follow through during his 4 years as president at a time when he could have seen to the enforcement of UN Resolutions.
70 - jack e. jett
hey ruvy
any children killed in your area? any old people left without medicine?
why won't your people let those that need help get help?
don't you find it a bit cruel?
ugly ugly ugly.
jack
71 - israel
this article is ridiculous. why dont you read some basic history? Israel has offered land for peace throughout the years. What you fail to understand is how the hell do you negotiate with people whose sole mission is to destroy you? I hope you find yourself in an alley with a terrorist alone, and try to lend out your 'yiddeshe' hand- honestly have you totally lost your mind? As an American Jew i support Israel and thier actions to stop terrorism for themselves but also for Adam Ash in his house in America so he can write baseless blogs.
72 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Adam,
You have truly made a fool of yourself. The whole point of being Jewish is to live here in the Land of Israel, to worship G-d, and to keep the commandments in our country.
Everything else is UNTIL we can do that. So the whole religion as it stands now is a remembrance for the day that we can return. But we have returned. American Jews are the result of Jews fleeing Europe when they saw no opportunity to come home. Once the opportunity to return arrived, we were supposed to make the attempt. European Jews, by and large, sniffed at the Zionist movement as stupidity. And most of them are now ashes. Just as the European exile was destroyed, the American exile will be. The method may not be through death camps, but intermarriage and assimilation are just as sure methods as death camps are.
If American Jews continue to sniff at returning home, there will no longer be Jews to return. They will be consumed in exile.
We know how to be proper Jews and how to defend our homeland and expel the enemy so that he will not be a thorn in our eyes. We need the self-righteous Jewish idiots in America to comprehend, finally and forever, that the center of the faith is here in Israel, not in America.
There is a cultural struggle HERE between those Jews who would copy the goyim in America and walk out on Judaism, and those Jews who believe in an authentic Jewish entity - like me. The government is presently in the hands of the Jews who would copy the goyim and who would walk out on Judaism.
73 - Christopher Rose
Walking out on Judaism, Christianity and Islam could only make the world a better place, as all three cults are based on lies.
74 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Well Chris,
I see that since I'm back, you are too.
75 - Les Slater
Ruvy is a sad case.
Israel is an imperialist creation and lives by the grace of imperialism alone, and will cease to exist, even before the same fate befalls imperialism.
Included in Ruvy's definition of death is to marry a non-Jew.
Life, is to steal someone else’s home.
"The whole point of being Jewish is to live here in the Land of Israel"
To not be a criminal is to not be Jewish?
He, the isolated Jew, is the essence of Jewry. This is Jew hatred.