For the birthers Washington is a sundown town--a town that excludes blacks
Now that Donald Trump has jumped into the faux fray about Obama’s birth certificate, it seems like a good time to define the real issue in this increasingly contentious matter.…
Article comments
26 - Glenn Contrarian
But pablo -
It looks as if my reference was wrong:
In an e-mail, according to the Times, Klein wrote that CNN researchers had determined that Obama's 1961 birth certificate no longer exists because Hawai'i officials had discarded paper documents in 2001 - a claim denied yesterday by Isle health officials. In 2001, Hawai'i's paper documents were reproduced in electronic format but "any paper data prior to that still exists," Health Department spokeswoman Okubo said.
BUT the same article also states concerning Obama's birth announcements in BOTH Hawaii's major newspapers:
Birthers wave off those birth announcements, saying that Obama family members 48 years ago could have phoned in false information to both newspapers.
Right? Isn't that the birthers' stance? Read on:
Such vital statistics, however, were not sent to the newspapers by the general public but by the Health Department, which received the information directly from hospitals, Okubo said.
Birth announcements from the public ran elsewhere in both papers and usually included information such as the newborn's name, weight and time of birth.
"Take a second and think about that," wrote Robert Farley of the St. Petersburg (Fla.) Times' Pulitzer Prize winning Web site PoliticFact.com on July 1. "In order to phony those notices up, it would have required the complicity of the state Health Department and two independent newspapers - on the off chance this unnamed child might want to one day be president of the United States."
Okay, pablo? The whole birther stance is quite silly. And YOU are buying into it.
27 - Glenn Contrarian
Dave -
I never said the whole country had given up racism, just that it wasn't a significant motivating factor in birtherism. First off, Obama is not a particularly "black" person of color.
Riiiiiiiight.
Dave, you're not stupid and you're not naive and you're no fool. That tells me that you know quite well that racism IS a significant motivating factor. You also know quite well that many Republicans still have a major problem with race, as this poll from last week found that forty-six percent (a plurality) of Mississippi Republicans still think interracial marriage should be illegal - those Republicans who agreed with that were significantly more likely to support Palin for president(!) - and another poll in February showed that fully 51% of Republicans are now birthers.
No, Dave, you're not stupid nor naive nor a fool...but you're on the side that is increasingly stupid, naive, and foolish.
28 - Heloise
Yeah, Dave is right. DC is a black town period.
My problem with Obama's status is that we should have laws that prevent anyone from high office if both parents are not natural born citizens. In my book, Obama is not a NBC. I thought he was electable so that's why I promoted him.
But is he a citizen, yes, but that does not end the controversy or the travesty for me. I said as much: he's so American, grew up in Hawaii, white mom, Kenyan (absent) father, everybody has that as part of their resume.
You don't need to be a birther or after-birther to have problems with Obama citizenship IMO. Or problems with a constitution that would allow someone appt to AG whose parents were probably illegals!
29 - Heloise
Dr. D @6 too funny.
Honestly, I bet he NEVER married the woman and that they never had a ceremony. And if they did then it made him a bigamist or trigamist because he had wives in Africa since HE WAS a Muslim exerting his right to marry more than one wife.
The interpretation of the Constitution is the problem here. Now that we have SCOTUS in Obama's potus there is no hope for CHANGE. Wow, that's good Heloise.
30 - Glenn Contrarian
Heloise -
What was the citizenship of George Washington's parents? Or John Adams'? Or Thomas Jefferson's?
Let me guess - the 'founding fathers' don't count because they were all 'really patriotic', while today we certainly couldn't think that someone with even ONE unAmerican parent might be a good patriotic American, oh no....
31 - Loggie
The nationality of Obama's father is irrelevant to his eligibility. Obama himself revealed that his father was Kenyan in his memoirs, published in 1995. Yet not a single peep of objection from congress or the courts, including the Supreme court, on his candidacy.
The only objections I see are from self serving constitutional interpreters who appear to have a view of Natural born citizen that is the exact opposite of what the entire body of the U.S government and the courts believe.
32 - Dr Dreadful
I seem to recall that, before the birthers recovered from the production of the 'Certification of Live Birth' and started to claim that it did not constitute valid proof of birth and/or citizenship (it does, by any legal standard), some of them went to great lengths to try to prove that it was a forgery.
I suspect that even if the "long form" certificate were to emerge, they'd say the same thing.
Using the kind of standard the birthers want to impose, I, for example, can't prove I'm in the US legally. As part of my visa application, I had to provide an original copy of my birth certificate. I therefore went to the registry office in the town where I was born and was presented with a handwritten form which stated that it was a certified copy of my entry in the register of births.
Handwritten, mind you. And yet, by the standards mandated by the INS, it was valid proof of birth. But can you imagine what the birthers would say if Obama or the State of Hawaii were to produce something like that?
Plain fact is, if you want to believe something badly enough, then no amount of evidence or rational argument will persuade you that you're wrong.
33 - Glenn Contrarian
Doc -
Plain fact is, if you want to believe something badly enough, then no amount of evidence or rational argument will persuade you that you're wrong.
e.g. AGW is false, torture is good (when we do it), taxing the rich a penny more is bad, cutting education funding while cutting corporate taxes is good, the moon doesn't cause the tides (see Bill O'Reilly)...
...the list goes on.
34 - Cannonshop
#24 Yes, Glenn, it started with the Democrats-along with "Obama is a Muslim", these rumours began after obama kicked clinton's ass in...what, ohio? anyway, you ought to remember it better than I do, you and I were both calling the whole thing asnine at the time. (maybe some chemical exposures damaged your long-term memory?) There was drooling hope in the MSM for a floor fight at the convention over it, including coverage of a thirty-seconds-then-gone group called "PUMA" ("Party Unity My Ass") who thought Obama was cheating during the primary (They were Clinton supporters), but that bunch didn't last long.
Mind that it HAS been right-wing droolers who've kept it alive-the same guys who think JFK was killed by the Cuban Mob, that Area 51 actually has anything interesting, and that the world is run by a conspiracy of black helicopters or somesuch.
but the whole meme started in DEMOCRAT dirty-tricks squads. I'd call it one of the best dirty-tricks tactics your lot have ever managed-inventing a strawman charge and having your OPPONENTS latch on to it as if it were real, thus making them look twice the fool to anyone with half a brain.
35 - Sam Sewell
It is inappropriate to include Obama's missing history including his birth certificate in an article about conspiracy theories. The facts, not theories, of the issue are clear and uncontested.
Obama is keeping the best available evidence secret. That is established fact, not theory. Let's just add suppression of evidence to the other charges of election fraud, campaign finance violations and filing fraudulent documents in all 50 states.
No matter what you might think there is no escaping that AKA Obama is not practicing the virtue of full disclosure.
In 1961, the Public Health Services, U. S Department of Health, Education and Welfare, National Center for Health Statistics, National Vital Statistics Division published the "Vital Statistics of the United States
Here is a blank copy of the Standard Certificate of Live Birth used by all states including Hawaii. This is the information being hidden by Obama.
Plus read the article that is included with the blank copy.
Here is what a real Hawaiian Birth Certificate looks like.
If you are not suspicious of a man who hides his history I have a bridge in the desert I want to sell you.
If you are unwilling to call for an investigation of a man who attempts to sell you a bridge in the desert I have some beach front property in Florida at the intersection of I75 and Florida # 29 that I want you to buy.
If you place a down payment on a contract for the bridge in the desert and the beach front property in the swamp I would conclude that you voted for Obama
Do you really think AKA Obama would have won the election if all the things he is hiding were made known?
Do you really think AKA Obama will be able to finish his first term if all the things he is hiding are made known?
The only conspiracy is the media and the obots who suppress the revelation of AKA Obama's history
Obama “I have nothing to hide but I’m hiding it.”
36 - Glenn Contrarian
Um, C-shop - I asked for references. Why? Because I've got a terrible memory (ask my wife) and I honestly don't remember when these rumors started before the Republicans did it.
BUT I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and take you at your word. BUT claiming that Clinton supporters (of which I was one (an alternate state delegate)) invented this strawman and then HAD - your word, "HAD", meaning that WE forced it on them - the right wing lug nuts latch on to it...
...come on, C-shop, that's stretching things a bit, don't you think? Like it was some kind of conspiracy? "Hey, let's start a rumor that the Republicans will buy into and it'll make them all look like idiots!"
Really, C-shop?
37 - Dr Dreadful
Here is a blank copy of the Standard Certificate of Live Birth used by all states including Hawaii.
Well, that's bullshit for a start. I work with birth certificates on a daily basis, and I can assure you that each state has its own format. There is no "standard" national birth certificate.
38 - Heloise
Glenn, how did your folks get here from another country? They just walked off the boat into Ellis Island. When anglos were immigrating there were NO questions asked. But when the brown folks started coming we had to ask questions, like: "who the hell are you and what do you want?" Everything changes that's life.
So the founding fathers are right up there with the 3 boats that brought the criminals here from Ireland and England. NO QUESTIONS ASKED. Should we and can we stop now?
39 - Sam Sewell
Does Hawaii ever release long-form birth certificates?
40 - Heloise
"Let me guess - the 'founding fathers' don't count because they were all 'really patriotic', while today we certainly couldn't think that someone with even ONE unAmerican parent might be a good patriotic American, oh no...."
Your argument (if you can call it that) Glenn is purely subjective and emotional, therefore moot. Who cares if they were patriotic? They are by definition so. My question: are you anti Constitution like the rest of the freaking libs?
It's all about the laws of the land and the Constitution and its amendments. There were no laws about immigration back then. And we got the 14th amendment about citizenship because slaves had to become, not people, but citizens...hello.
You were a citizen if you were born here. African slaves were born in well, Africa. They were truly "grandfathered in" so to speak into citizenship. Hell, I should have written an article about same.
41 - Glenn Contrarian
Sam -
Here's information about the Hawaii law:
One thing that remains unclear is whether Obama has a copy of the original 1961 Certificate of Live Birth, or if he would even be allowed to see it if he asked.
Hawai'i's disclosure law (Hawai'i Revised Statutes 338-18) states that "it shall be unlawful for any person to permit inspection of, or to disclose information contained in vital statistics records, or to copy or issue a copy of all or part on any such record ... "
The law further states that the Health Department "shall not permit inspection of public health statistics records, or issue a certified copy of any such record or part thereof, unless it is satisfied that the applicant has a direct and tangible interest in the record."
Those who have "direct and tangible interest" are generally limited to the person named in the record, the spouse, parent, descendant, or personal representative, or by someone who is involved in marital, parental or death litigation involving the named person's vital record or other legal reason established by a court order, and various official agency or organization representatives, including the state director of health, according to the law.
42 - S.T..M
You have to admire the Obama family's tenacity all those years ago, orgainising all this stuff, covering their tracks, sending false info to the Honolulu Advertiser, changing dates, applying for a Hawaii certificate even though the young lad was born in Kenya, a far-off land, etc etc, just in case, one day, their son Barack became .... president of the US!!
Shows amazing foresight, that.
That, or a Kenyan witchdoctor with a bone through his nose foretold the entire thing.
The other wonderful and educational thing about this is that the more I read this stuff, the more I realise that America has a greater percentage of total crackpots than any other nation on earth.
As for original certificates, many countries still keep them but have stored them deep in the archives but now only give you a short form copy printed off from computer records.
Mine included. I had to pick one up for my son and daughter a few years back because we couldn't find the originals.
I remember that my son was born at Royal North Shore hospital in Sydney, the year of his birth, even the time. My youngest daughter was born at the Royal Women's Hospital, Paddington, a neighbourhood of inner Sydney (and the hospital has suspiciously now been demolished to sell off the valuable land, but I think it was actually done to cover some of the tracks just in case she wants to become Prime Minister one day). Oh yes, their births were recorded in the Sydney Morning Herald.
I have the real annoucements and the photcopies somewhere in a box but I can't be bothered rummaging through 50,000 pieces of paper to find it.
However, since getting the computer short form copies of their birth certificates, everyone in Australia will now likely be suggesting that their actual place of birth was Burkina Faso, because I once lived in Baghdad and all things being relative, Iraq and Africa aren't that far away from each other.
43 - Glenn Contrarian
STM -
You can't fool us! We all just know that your son was born in Guatemala, and you've been working all these many years covering up his REAL heritage just so you can get him elected as Prime Minister of Australia!
We're on to you, sir!
44 - S.T..M
Tee hee.
But I shouldn't scoff, really.
Those founding fathers 200 years back put that natural-born clause in the constitution for a good reason, even though they didn't explain what it actually meant despite everyone STILL thinking it simply means a person entitled at birth to US citizenship, partly to ensure that no one of loyalist or British background would head up a US government that would then be pointed back to an allegience with the Crown.
Wouldn't they be turning in their graves now if they knew that a bloke who is secretly a British Citizen is now president of the US.
And not just any old British citizen, but a sambo!!
This could be remembered as the greatest constitutional crisis in history, especially of that bloke in the psych hospital who is actually George Washington ever gets out and tells the truth about this.
45 - Dr Dreadful
You can't fool us! We all just know that your son was born in Guatemala, and you've been working all these many years covering up his REAL heritage just so you can get him elected as Prime Minister of Australia!
Shouldn't be too hard, actually. The current Australian prime minister was born in Wales. Not the New South version, either.
Can't believe those wily Aussies let that one slip past them.
46 - Cannonshop
#36, I didn't mean to imply that it was forced on the GOP-keep in mind, no matter which direction you look on the political spectrum, there are legions of Konspiracy Nutters who'll latch on to the most ridiculous crap. I meant to imply a certain fortunate happenstance, that the rumour was started as a Primary-season-smear, which was picked up by the other party's more radicalized and paranoid elements (and the GOP has some doozies, too-seems the right picked up most of the Black Helicopter crowd...)
But political operatives are political operatives-the ones in your party would have to be brain-dead not to capitalize on the idiots in the GOP with this one-and it isn't exactly difficult to do, either. the internet, after all, is a wasteland of conspiracy theorists and provocative commentation, just dropping a couple anonymous posts on, say, Michelle Malkin's site, or Redstate, or Town Hall can keep the fringes spinning for days.
I often wondered if some of the more...obnoxious posts I used to see on Daily Kos weren't generated by Karl Rove's people for a similar purpose in the nineties and in 2004.
47 - Jordan Richardson
just dropping a couple anonymous posts on, say, Michelle Malkin's site, or Redstate, or Town Hall can keep the fringes spinning for days.
Quoted for truth. Grab a pitcher of margaritas to go with it and you've got yourself one hell of a Monday morning.
48 - zingzing
cannonshop making some bit of sense... mind is blown. the birther meme developed out of a series of mass emails, so it's hard to pinpoint the direct source of it, but it's not hard to imagine that, due to the fact that it started in mid-2008, it had its origin in the politics of the democratic primary.
if it was too little, too late, it was the dems (aka hills). which would be natural... if it was a rather insidious, if politically savvy move, it was the republicans. which would also be, to my ever-growing chagrin, natural.
the republicans do have one thing up on the dems. they are infinitely better at politics. they may look like assholes while doing it, but it's fucking effective, and even if their base comes off looking like a bunch of loons along with them, they still get elected.
the miracle of america!
poop.
49 - El Bicho
"My problem with Obama's status is that we should have laws that prevent anyone from high office if both parents are not natural born citizens. In my book, Obama is not a NBC."
Yet, we don't have those laws, so it doesn't matter what's in your book. Besides, in your book you were JFK. Shouldn't we have laws that state the president should only be one person at a time?
50 - El Bicho
I know people are still fighting the Civil War and the 1960s, but is Election 2010 still open as well?
51 - Clavos
...is Election 2010 still open as well?
Hell, EB, 2008 is.
52 - S.T..M
This thread just gets better and better. Keep 'em coming'
53 - troll
surfer dude - the underlying argument (NBCers) seems to boil down to whether or not American presidents must be bastards
so far they've all lived up to this rule imo
54 - Dr Dreadful
Hell, EB, 2008 is.
:-) So should we be expecting McCain to go marching up to the front door of the White House any day now and demand a rematch?
55 - Heloise
El bicho, I wrote the book so therefore I make the rules or break the rebirth laws as needed. You are not there yet but I am. THe law was there we didn't follow it. Case closed on your hand El.
56 - S.T..M
G'day Troll. I suspect you spot on there mate. Hope all's good with you BTW. We seem to come and go here a bit. Cheers.
And nicely observed Doc ... yeah, she WAS born in Wales.
I'm less worried about that than I am about her getting into bed with the loony left after having to form a coalition with a couple of Greens and some crazy independents in the upper and lower houses after the vote going down to the wire in December.
I'm over 'em. I've voted for 'em all my life but they're just incomptetent. The State Labor government got smashed last weekend; they now have about 20 seats in State parly, while the Libs have about 65. OIt's their own fault; they've forgotten what and who they are.
I wouldn't mind the Greens so much if weren't all as mad cut snakes. It's not about tree-hugging either ... they really are on the loony left and Labor has had to lurch to the left to accommodate them.
I never signed up for that, nor did I sign up for a carbon tax.
Bastards.
The PM last year: "There will never be a carbon tax under a government I lead".
So what's she doing? Take one guess.
It's the same down this neck of the woods Yanks: as always, you can never trust a f.cking pollie.
In the end, they'll always kick you in the guts. They're nearly all lying, self-serving bastards.
57 - zingzing
birthers not racist at all.