As confrontation with Iran escalates, what forces are at work? Who, if anyone, will military conflict help?
Last December and January, the sabre-rattling started between the United States and Iran. Just last week, Condoleeza Rice retooled a familiar statement once applied to Iraq to our new enemy: "We do not have a problem with the Iranian people. We want the Iranian people to be free. Our problem is with the Iranian regime."…
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26 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
First of all Chris,
Thank you for the kind words. It's good to know that one can hold opposing views of someone and still be regarded as a friend.
Shay,
I had written about ten paragraphs in answer to Chris's question #22. It is a very logical question. One slip of the finger and it all went and disappeared on me. I'm not the best typist and there is no undo key to regain all the work. I had other things to do, if you catch my drift. When I can, I'll send links to answer Chris's questions. If you're still reading, you're welcome to follow the links as well. I have nothing to hide.
Now, let's start with a couple of basic points. I wish it were true that Yigal Amir was in fact the killer of Yitzhak Rabin. I wish it were true that we were in fact a democracy and a sovereign state. Halevái, it should only be so. There is a distinct chance you would not see me writing at all here were this true.
Let's look at comment #25 by Ahmad Hashem. I copied the relevant point in it so you needn't work too hard.
What made Jews choose this very special spot to settle their home in the middle of all these people who hate them as people not as governments. The world is large enough for these few millions of Jews.
I think Israel is paying the price of its decision.
If we forget about Torah and Tana"kh entirely, and rely upon laws of man alone, relying on no higher or external source, what excuse can you give Ahmad to explain why you live here? Why, if you served in miluim, you served? Why we should have the land in Tel Aviv and not some Arab farmer or fisherman? Why Jews should live in apartment buildings in Armon haNetziv or Gilo, or Pisgat Ze'ev, or Kfar Sava instead of fellahin tending goats or sheep?
If you rely on the laws of man alone, what land claim can you use to trump even the claim of Cherkessim who come from Chechnya 200 years ago let alone Arab clans who've lived here for hundreds of years?
What proof of ownership is a stone with a Shield of David on it, even if it is 1,600 years old, or 3,100 years old?. What relationship do you have to whoever happened to live here 2,500 years ago? How can you prove that relationship?
Why shouldn't you live in New York or Berlin or Toronto or Hong Kong?
Now I'll quote you your own words.
"This Ruvy - whoever he is - is probably one of very few extremists that believe that the laws of G-d are ABOVE the laws of the country,..."
Without reference to Torah or Tana"kh, you cannot answer Ahmad. Neither you nor I nor all the other 5.6 million Jews struggling here to make ends meet have a reason to be here. Remember, when you say "next year in Jerusalem" at the end of the Seder, that is reference to the our Creator and His will for us, the miracles that He worked for us, deny Him as you might, and deny the miracles as you desire. If you lived here before Purim in 1991 ask yourself how many of our people died from Scuds? And then ask yourself how many American soldiers died from Scuds before Purim, 1991.
Second of all, without the laws of G-d, there is no country. Pure happenstance is not an excuse. Yisrael existed and exists because G-d willed him to exist to wrestle with Him. G-d willed us to exist, and chose this piece of real estate for us. Whether you or I admit this or not is irrelevant; whether you or I believe this or not is irrelevant. That is why you are here. That is why I am here.
Tachlis:
If the laws of G-d are not above the laws of whatever fools happen to sit on the Baga"tz or in the Knesset, there is no reason for Ruvy to be in Jerusalem; he might as well go back to St. Paul. And you Shay, might as well go back to whatever place you or your parents or grandparents came from. Without the laws of G-d, we have no claim to this soil at all.
27 - ApFaq
You can't blam both sides.
like historically and traditionally this strife betwen Isreal and the palestinians/Arabs in the region, has been a great pain for both the part-takers in this conflict and the world that has to jump in the provide humanitarian and military assistance.
What these have to learn soon is that, they must put away their differences and be able to work together to prosper.
They MUST realize that times have changed, and that they must now move on and look for a better future, not a bitter future.
28 - JP
Ruvy, Christopher, Ahmad - Very interesting discussion, I'm not able to contribute much as I'm not up on the details of the assasination much less any alternate theories. I can barely keep up with the alternative theories of events in my own country ;)
Thanks for your personal input on the location question. I'd have to guess that a majority of people worldwide, as they are religious, would argue the state ultimately derives power from the creator. So ApFaq, I don't see the region "solving" that conflict anytime soon.
Someone who views purely analytically, not emotionally attached to either side, might say the history of bloodshed is tragic and unnecessary; for those involved, though, the cause more likely justifies the means. I'm one of the former, but I recognize my limitation in understanding the latter.
29 - Ahmad Hashem
For ratinal people, If you visited your friend which you know that he live alone, them found that someone with a big family is living at your friend home, and still growing and consume larger space, and as you know, they have never existed before, then, what is your situation then? normally, you will call this strangers to get out from his home. I think that this is the same Muslim Arabs are trying to tell Israel about it since, 1948 , but for no wonder, Israel is still growing and growing, but its neighbours of Arabs is still shrinking and shrinking. How any one can explain this to me?
30 - Grey
I like how Ruvy's first post and every subsequent post draws attention away from the focus of the article.
its not Iran or Israel, its the US.
we're on a crusade here, and we're not trying to help or hurt anyone in particular:
all the US cares about is:
helping countries that aid us in our goal of stopping any major OPEC country from switching from dollars to euros (israel provided a handy excuse to start sabre rattling to invade Iran)
and hurting any country that aids an OPEC country in the attempt to switch to the euro for petrol based transactions.
go back up there and reread the article, you're all missing the point rather neatly.
...the US is at war with any euro involved in oil trade, it doesn't matter who it is.
thus far we have
-invaded iraq shortly after they switched to the euro, and restored it to american dollar.
-threatened to invade iran, with the EXACT SAME rhetoric as iraq.
-suppressed all reports about the Iranian Oil Bourse
more information none of this information has appeared on public television, in the US or abroad.