Tekwh0re among others over time has expressed basically equal disgust with Israel and the Palestinians. Screw 'em both, the sentiment goes. They're jackass thugs on both sides.
Specifically, Ms. Wh0re was totally wrong about Israel vs Palestinians. Israel is pretty near 100% right, and the Palestinians utterly 100% wrong. Israel tries to offer very favorable deals, and even in conflict makes great efforts to avoid unnecessarily killing "innocent" Palestinians. Israel values human life, and tries very hard to play nice.
They could in truth do pretty much any amount of damage they want to the Palestinians or anyone else in the region. They absolutely have nuclear weapons. They could play MUCH rougher than they do.
Palestinians by and large show broad support among their populace for killing Jews as their top cultural value- more valued than their own lives and well-being. This is not a statement of subjective personal dislike on my part, but an objective observance of the abundant evidence on the ground. It comes out in polls of Palestinians, in the speaking among people, in their constant and consistent behavior.
There is nothing like moral equivalence here. The Jews are the victims here, absorbing a great deal more absolute random mass murders of Israeli women and children than anyone could ever be expected to bear. Palestenians and many Arabs will not accept any result that includes the continued existence of Israel.
Someone might go a long way, bend over backwards in order to make nice and avoid conflict. No one, however, can be expected to commit suicide- just accept being massacred on their own streets at random day after day.
What the hell's wrong with someone to think that they should just be expected to take that, and not just utterly destroy their enemies?
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - mike
Al: The fact that you can't spell "Palestinian" pretty much sums up the worth of your argument. Sheesh.
There's a whole generation of revisionist Israeli historians who have shredded the "Israel is the victim" argument; they have acknowledged the fundamental justness of the PalestInian cause without yielding to terrorist apologetics. For starters, I suggest "One Palestine, Complete" by Tom Segev.
Your homework is to read one of these books and report back to the group with your findings. I have decided that you are capable of being rehabilitated and will not have to be burned at the stake with the editors of the National Review and The Weekly Standard. Consider yourself fortunate.
2 - Steve Rhodes
Or if he read Haaretz. As much as people complain about bias in the US press agaisnt Israel, the Israeli press is much more critical.
And it is amazing to me that people say a government is 100% right when if it were a different country doing the same things they'd decry their human rights record and lack of democracy (the recent law denying citizenship to Palestians who marry Israelis or the collective punishment destroying people's homes are just a couple examples).
Israel's policy of assasination has not stopped the terror, it just continues the cycle of violence, gives the extremists a veto over any progress, and undermines moderates who want peace.
3 - Al Barger
You got me on a misspelling there, Mike. Now I have committed grave offense against the honor of the Palestinians. They have no choice now but blow up a pizza parlor full of Jewish teenagers to extract vengeance.
The Palestinians and all the hateful Arabs who support them are evil monsters on the face of it. No book is going to excuse, or even slightly mitigate the wickedness they do proudly, day after day.
Oh, look, the Palestinians have blown up another bus full of Israelis- and American tourists. Oh, but it says here in this book that they've got good reasons.
There is no good reason.
4 - Chris L
Without putting too much effot into my post ( as you clearly didn't yours)
I can see why you hold such views.
Basically it's because you're an idiot and like most idiots if it's not explained in the basest terms or doesn't have some sort of emotional appeal it's not worth saying.
I won't waste any time arguing with you, as i have better things to do, such as watching my dog try to pass a chew toy.
5 - Al Barger
Mr. Rhodes, exactly what do you think the Israelis should do? Bastards are murdering them in their own streets, day after day after day. They should, what, hold hands with the Palestinians and sing Kum-ba-frickin-ya? Israel offered them about 95% of everything they asked for a couple of years ago, and the current war was their reward.
And NO, I absolutely would expect anyone to defend themselves as Israel has, or even to be much tougher. I would not expect anyone to be constantly massacred in their own country, and just take it.
6 - Steve Rhodes
I'd expect them to stop "targeted" assasinations which haven't worked. Sometimes they end up killing civilians. (Firing rockets into a dense urban area isn't what I'd call going to great lengths to avoid killing inncocents (not in quotes since some of them were kids). The Hamas terrorist they killed just replaced one they killed last year. And 100,000 people turned out the other day for his funeral.
They would dismantle the settlements.
They would negotiate a viable Palestinian state (this is a good account of what actually happened at Camp David).
They would create a policy that reflected Jewish values rather than right-wing politics. They would realize that a Palestinian state would make everyone safer (though like with Northern Ireland, there will continue to be extremists who try to block peace).
7 - Ms. Tek
"constantly massacred in their own country"
Ah... and therein lies the rub...
It isn't their own country... it's not even land that they got for themselves by expansion. It is land that the British let them have due to fears at the turn of the last century. This isn't a story that is just 50 or even 75 years old... it goes much deeper than that. Read up on history, Mr. Barger. I highly doubt it will change your views... I get the feeling that once you think you are right on something, not even a personal email from God telling you it isn't so would change your mind. The statement that Israel is pretty near 100% right kind of tells me your thought process here. That and the idea that someone who doesn't support Israel is an anti-Semitic. I suppose that if I don't believe in affirmative action would also make someone a racist? It doesn't work all ways.
8 - Ms. Tek
I'm sorry if the end of the above post made no sense... I just woke up. =)
What I am trying to say is that just because you don't support a group doing something doesn't make you anti-Semitic or a racist. I see that is one of your book selections. I freely admit I am against Israel and it's policies... just as I am against anyone who just wants to up and take root somewhere because of their religion or color or brand of detergent without taking in consideration what might be before.
Israel is very good at pinpoint certain people an assinating them. If they are so good at pin pointing then they should just arrest them. As for going nuclear, we all know that once one starts, everyone will... India, Pakistan, China, etc... the mass hysteria and paranoia would ensue and that is it for all of us.
I am 100% against religion and government mixing. Israel is a good example of what I am against= a government based on a religion. Nothing good ever comes of that.
9 - Steve Rhodes
I should say that the assasination that sparked the huge funeral rally was Abu Shanab, a relatively moderate political leader (as far as Islamic extremists go) who had pushed for the cease-fire. He was also had a fairly good relationship with Fatah which is vital to try and maintain some sort of truce.
This is from a piece in Haaretz on recent Palestinian media coverage:
No, there shouldn't be terrorist attacks on the settlers. But by killing people like Shanab, those who want to carry out more horrific attacks like the on the bus last week will only be strengthened.
10 - Eric Olsen
You can believe that Israel is 100% in the right in 1) existing, 2) defending itself, without agreeing with its tactics.
11 - Sean
Al, you are 100% right.
12 - debbie
"I'd expect them to stop "targeted" assasinations which haven't worked. Sometimes they end up killing civilians."
As opposed to the terrorist activities of the Palestinians that deliberatly target civilians 100% of the time?????
If Palestine wants to be taken seriously then they have to start arresting and dismantling the terrorist organizations. It is only because "NOTHING" is being done by their own government (or lack of) that Isreal feels that it has to "target" them. Surely you are not suggesting that Isreal just sit back and do nothing?
"They would negotiate a viable Palestinian state "
Way back in 1946 or 1948 (I forget the year) it was divided into 2 separate countries. Isreal and Palestine. The Arab League of Nations (this includes Palestine) refused to acknowledge it and invaded Isreal. They got their butts spanked and Isreal's territory grew as a result of it to include the disputed "territories". This is when they started the terrorist bombings of civilians in Isreal - because they didn't like the outcome of their own actions. Instead of the Arab League of Nations assisting Palestine by helping them set up in the remaining portion of the land set aside for them - they refused to allow them to become members of their countries, instead making them live in refugee camps for 40 years when they were the ones that instigated the war with a Promise to get rid of Isreal and allow Palestine to have the whole region.
I think the whole thing is unfortunate. It is horrible to see this go on day after day. But I really have a hard time seeing how this can end without both sides doing some real good faith advances. Palestine has to start policing thier own or it will never end. If they aren't willing to arrest and bring them to trial and dismantle the terrorist groups then Isreal will never back down. They will not allow these attacks on their civilians to go totally unpunished.
13 - mike
The answer is a binational secular state, with strict separation of church and state, a U.S. style constitution and a common army and police force.
Call it "the Republic of Israel Palestine."
14 - Joe
No, Palestine Israel!
15 - Steve Rhodes
A bi-national secular state isn't going to happen. That is one thing the religious right on both sides agrees on.
Two states is the only realistic solution.
The problem is Israel's tactics undermine the security of their people. There was another "targeted" assasination attempt today. A 65 year old water pipe vendor was killed, 26 people were injured, four of them children including an 8 year old who is in intensive care.
Members of Hamas are getting good at jumping out of cars when missiles are fired at them. The guy targeted was injured, but got away.
This doesn't make Israelis safer.
Yes, Arab governments are awful, undemocratic, and have used the Palestinian cause while doing little to help the Palestinians.
Yes, the Palestinians should do more to stop terrorist attacks such as the closing of the underground tunnels in Gaza. But it is difficult to do effective policing when occupied (plus the occasional Israeli attacks on Palestinian security forces).
So the best policy would be to move forward as quickly as possible towards establishing a Palestinian state, not letting terrorist attacks derail the process (which is exactly what the terrorists want).
16 - Al Barger
Part of the problem is that Palestinians can't be trusted with any major democratic rule at this point. For example, Mr. Larkin's "binational secular state" wouldn't work, because the first thing the Palestinians would do would be to have a true and genuine democratic vote to kill the Jews.
How are you supposed to work with people like that?
17 - mike
Two states can't work because a Palestinian state will never be granted sufficient contiguous territory or water rights to make it a viable entity. Not to mention that it wouldn't be allowed to have a military to defend itself against threats from Israel and others.
A binational state can only emerge if a majority of Israelis and Palestinians demand it through non-violent civil disobedience and protest. Since that will never happen, there are no prospects for peace in the Middle East. Period.
But of course, I don't care. We should cut off all aid to Israel and the Palestinians and let them solve their own problems; and also of course withdraw our troops from Iraq. I don't want to pay for it.
18 - Al Barger
We might could get together on an American policy prescription here, Mike. I'd be willing to cut off aid to Israel- AND the Palestinians, Jordanians and everybody else.
At the same time, we'd also quit telling Israel what they can and can't do to defend themselves.
All I ask is that the US catch Israel's back in the UN with an occassional veto in the Security Council.
So we're agreed then?
19 - debbie
Two states can work, if you look at the original configuration of the two states established in the original mandate both Palestine and Isreal had water rights and an equal amount of land.
At this point I can't see either side trusing the other side enough to begin to think about a binational state. I really don't think that Isreal would even consider it, and to be honest, neither would I if I were living in Isreal.
20 - Cai Ping
As an Asian living in South East Asia amongst many muslim friends, I certainly find the Middle Eastern muslims hard to understand.
I look at the map to see a small country (Israel), surrounded by larger countries bent on its destruction. So who exactly is the aggressor and who is the victim?
I keep hearing of muslim "clerics & leaders" calling for the destruction of Israel & all Jews. Often even calling for the destruction of all "infidels" (non-muslims). Obviously not only is Israel under attack, but all of the non-muslim world. Fortunately for us, these extremist are week & pathetic.
As a father, a husband & a son, I will always feel a need to care for & protect my family. If someone is to threaten or attack any one of my loved ones, I would certainly act against that person or group. Even if his/their friends & supporters ("innocent civilians") are caught in between. I'm sure many would react likewise, so how is it so different for Israel?
Many of my muslim friends are wonderful people. Unfortunately, in today's war against muslim extremist, there is no room for fence sitters. If you don't condemn them, than you are supporting them!
Don't forget! As long as you're not muslim, they are calling for your destruction as well. Just imagine if they had the military might of the USA. THAT'S SCARY!!!
21 - Al Barger
Cai- thank you for your thoughtful comments, and for putting yourself in the Jew's shoes for a minute.
A lot of this comes down to denial of responsibility with all this carrying on about the supposedly innocent people being slaughtered by the Israelis. Sometimes (by Muslim design) there are absolutely innocent babies and such killed, which is a damned shame. But cutting forward from this 2003 article to the current 2006 issues, most of these supposedly innocent Lebanese aren't innocent.
If you've got crazy psycho killers launching bombs out of their backyard next door, then it's YOUR responsibility to clean up your own backyard. If you won't do anything to stop it, then the Israelis at some point have to, don't they? At that point, you've got no legitimate complaint about collateral damage.
22 - Amin
"You can believe that Israel is 100% in the right in 1) existing, 2) defending itself, without agreeing with its tactics."
I believe in the exact opposite:
Israel is 100% in the wrong in 1) existing, and 2) "defending" itself (IOW, beating off the original inhabitants who try to throw the Jewish invaders out of their homes) but I agree with its tactics (which from what I understand, is more targetted than it could be given Israel's overwhelming firepower).
23 - Cayuse
The history of this or any conflict is well stated. Powerful economic and military might has collected bounty for greedy people. Leaving distruction and destitution behind. What else would make a person stand in front of a tank or blow themselves up. A much different sacrifice than pushing a button in an airplane killing inocent people. Neither less deadly to ones life, especially to the innocents
We are spining through space millions of miles from any other form of life. How can we allow the potential distruction of life itself.
For thousands of years much has been written about giving and not taking. With all our technology and science how stupid can mankind become.
Cut the cake in half and let the other guy pick the first peace.
24 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
It should be noted here that Al Barger's article was written in August 2003, right around the time the government here started turning so viciously on the residents of Gaza, Judaea and Samaria (where I live now, in spite of the moniker). Because he doesn't live here, he missed that point.
It was written during a period of time when terrorists stalked our streets and the government was unwilling to do anything serious to stop them for fear of international opinion. Tactics of targetted assassinations of enemy insurrection leaders are the minimum one could do to enforce law and order.
When I talk about "doing something serious to quell an insurrection", my measure is what the king of Jordan ordered his army to do in 1970 - kill 5,000 Arab refugees, both fighters and their families.
Israel has attempted (for all the wrong reasons) to minimize the number killed in military operations. Compared to the murderous Jordanian Army, and the US Army, the IDF has operated with surgical cleanliness. Not that it gets us any points with the world's media which basically hates Jews and craps on us every opportunity it gets.
The Israeli media, is a different story. Manned for the most part by self hating secular Jewish types (found at BC Magazine as well, unfortunately), it goes after anything that might benefit religious Jews - which is one reason it so overwhelmingly supported the expulsion of the Jewish residents of Gaza last year. The vast majority of them were religious Jews.
But when the rockets began to fall on Haifa and Hadera, the media changed its tune. Had they gone much further south, the rockets would have hit Netanya and K'far Sava, strongholds of the rich secular types who dominate the economy and the media here. It suddenly dawned on the arrogant bastards that their own asses were literally on the line.
Then they suddenly remembered which country was providing them their defense and talk of unity and victory filled the air. Not that their empty words helped any. But now the left wing loonies at Haaretz are on record as demanding the resignation of the incompetent thief, Ehud Olmert, the incompetent COS, Dan Halutz, and that idiot of a security minister, Amir Peretz.
The IDF has followed American guidelines in its offensives on territory ouside of Israel proper, which is why it lost the recent war in Lebanon. It attacked along the "line of expectation," which in the parlance of the military means, it went where the enemy would reasonably expect you to go. Instead of attacking from the north, and destroying HizbAllah command and control posts in Syria, it struck from the south. This was to minimize damnage to Lebanese infrastructure, something the Americans demanded. In addition to robbing all elements of surprise from the attacking force, it increased casualties. There was no reason we had to lose 100 soldiers - except to please the Americans - literally dying to please Bush.
The IDF was set up to lose by the Americans, and this is the cause of the concentrated attacks on Gaza now - anything to "change the subject" from the military rout in the summer. The same is true of MK Efraim Sneh's comments threatening to attack Iran, and his stinging and truthful attacks on Arab integrity he engaged in in the Knesset on 13 November. Anything to change the subject from the loss up north and the fact that one third of the government collapsed under the hail of rocket attacks from Lebanon.
The Americans are planning their assault on Iran, and you can bet that we get to play a role in it. We are the sacrificial goat. The nature of the sacrifices that Olmert will have to sell is the probable reason he was in Washington this Sunday.
25 - Heinrich3793
I totally agree with you Al, the Israelis have had nothing but attacks and grief from their Islamic neighbours who refuse to accept them as a nation. I must admit that Israel has recently used too much force in the west bank and Gaza but what else can they do when their neighbouring countries are firing missiles indiscriminately into their land, killing civilians and soldiers alike. Did the UK respond any better in Northern Island, or even the US in Cuba? Israel are fighting a war that has been going onsince 1948 with short ceasefires and pauses but it is ultimately the same war now as then, the war was started by Egypt, Syria and Jordan.
Can Israel really be blamed when Hamas is a terrorist organisation that survives off killing and maiming inocent people. You only hate Israel because you are sad individuals who believe everything they read. Ever heard of propaganda.
Oh and about Al's spelling, I mean if you are lowering your argument to pedantic spell checks then you obviously have no real argument.