The Free Gaza Movement's Spirit of Humanity was surrounded by Israeli warships and humanitarian aid workers were abducted.
June 30, 2009 15:30 local time: Israeli Occupation forces have boarded the Free Gaza Movement's aid boat Spirit of Humanity and abducted 21 humanitarian aid workers including six-term U.S. Congresswoman and former presidential candidate Cynthia McKinney and Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Mairead Corrigan Maguire. Major news outlets MSNBC, ABC, CNN, BBC, FOX, and The Nation have been silent on events, thus far.…
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276 - Cindy
Photostory: Israeli bulldozer driver murders American peace activist
The Murder of Rachel Corrie, a 23 year old peace activist, acting in accordance with non-violent principles of protest along the lines of MLK and Gandhi. Rachel Corrie while wearing clearly marked orange dayglow reflective clothing was run over twice by a member of the Israeli military driving a bulldozer, while attempting to block the destruction of a Palestinian home. Photographs of Rachel are included, before and after her death.
The play about Rachel's life and experiences in Israel/Palestine has been repeatedly censored, its performances stopped in the U.S.--even in NYC.
277 - roger nowosielski
I understand your reasons, Ruvy, although I don't view Dave's remarks as "being sympathetic with the Arabs" but more or less evenhanded. (He warns me, doesn't he? about paying to much credence to "Arab propaganda," so you can't discard that, not really.)
Personally, I admit I do not know enough about what are "the facts on the ground," nor do I care to get into the history of the region in sufficient detail as to be able to adjudicate the rights and the wrongs, and who has got the right to the land and who does not, and who is the good guy and who is the bad - etcetera, etcetera. There already are plenty enough people who do this, and I say, good luck to them.
All I'm saying, and this is my position, especially since seeing the videos and other information that Cindy provided, that there are at least two sides to this story: and from what little I have seen the Israeli armed forces conduct themselves, I was appalled (unless again, some would care to argue these images were "doctored." So again, my position is: there is propaganda on both sides - not just the Arab side.
278 - Cindy
Israeli Military Murder Gaza Farmer
The IDF simply starts shooting at a group of Palestinians as they are picking vegetables, murdering one man.
279 - Cindy
The above is a video. It is perfectly clear what happens. The IDF simply starts shooting at people.
280 - Cindy
Israeli Soldiers Shooting at Farmers in Abassan Jedida
News like this report is regularly suppressed by the Israeli govt. and IDF. Channel 2 in Israel breaks embargo on airing report. An Israeli official spokesperson says that channel 2 should have 'self-censored'. A soldier in the report says this: "I'don't know what we're doing here. Purification maybe. It's dirty here. I don't know why a good Hebrew boy should be here..."
GAZA FISHING BOATS ATTACKED BY ISRAELI GUNBOATS Oct 5 2008
281 - Christopher Rose
I think you've made your point now, Cindy...
282 - roger nowosielski
To add to #277:
I don't see this conflict as a "Holy War," Ruvy, whereas you do, and that's where we come to irreconcilable differences. But since you've made your decision not to post on this thread anymore, I respect that and will not make any direct address.
283 - Cindy
Naomi Klein: Oppose The State, Not The People
By Yotam Feldman - July 2nd, 2009
Published in Ha'aretz
"There is a debate among Jews - I'm a Jew by the way," she said. The debate boils down to the question: "Never again to everyone, or never again to us?... [Some Jews] even think we get one get-away-with-genocide-free card...There is another strain in the Jewish tradition that say, 'Never again to anyone.'"
(published yesterday...)
284 - Cindy
I wish you were right Christopher. But somehow I doubt that's true. In fact, making points seems a waste of time with people.
I invited people here to read this article. They came and were so appalled by what one called 'apartheid trolls' that they didn't even want to comment here. They don't waste their time like I do.
Out of respect for Ruvy, I didn't discuss this subject all through the bombing of Gaza. I didn't even press it in this thread. But since Ruvy chose to push me and push me...even after I had left off the subject. Now, I am having my say.
285 - Cindy
I am done...until one of them posts again.
286 - roger nowosielski
Do you have the link to the article in #283?
287 - Cindy
Here you go Roger. The article from Naomi Klein's web site.
288 - Cindy
That's about as unreasonable a demand as asking for evidence of Jews putting Germans in concentration camps during World War 2.
Indeed it is. And yet most people I talk to have no real idea what is happening. Or what things even look like over there. They talk about it, like Cannonshop, as if it is some war between two nations, instead of what it really is.
-------
In regards to Cannon's comment about humanitarian aid. Many of those offering the aid are Jewish groups from within Israel.
B'Tselem, the organization that gives out the cameras is an Israeli organization. They too live in right Israel and have a point of view.
289 - roger nowosielski
I for one was shocked. Had no idea IDF had such freedom of operation. The occupied territories (how else to refer to isolated pockets where the majority of Palestinians live?) are under the marshal law more or less. Add to this active resistance fronts like Hamas and Hezbollah, and you've got innocent civilians and active militants all thrown into the mix in what certainly is more of a guerrilla warfare than war between nations. So what does it matter whether the little snippets we get come from Arab media sources (like Al Jazeera) rather than Israeli networks. It stands to reason the latter would tend to suppress all evidence of Israel's complicity in the affair.
290 - Cindy
It stands to reason the latter would tend to suppress all evidence of Israel's complicity in the affair.
Bingo Roger!
291 - Dave Nalle
Dave, please provide video evidence of Palestinians instituting apartheid actions against Israeli communities.
Please show me the humanitarian aid groups that are needed by Israelis in order to just get basic needs met. Show me the peace groups and humanitarian groups that endorse your statements Dave.
Show me the Palestinian army that keeps Israelis from walking down streets, fishing, harvesting crops, grazing animals, living in their homes
Cindy, when did I ever claim that any of these things exist. The methods of Israel are the methods of an oppressive state -- I think that's a large part of the reason why you take sides against them. The methods of the Arabs/Palestinians are different because they are not in a position of control, but they are just as bad in their own right. The fact that they are oppressed does not excuse attacks against civilians and Hamas is as much or more of an oppressor in its way as Israel is.
What you are consistently missing is that there are not TWO sides to this conflict. There are at least three and perhaps four. There are Israel and Hamas and then there are the civilians of the region who are put upon and abused by both entities. Those victims deserve our concern, but they deserve it whether they are Israelis or Arabs, and legitimizing and supporting the Hamas oppressors rather than the Israeli oppressors as McKinney and her ilk do is NOT the answer. It's just picking one group of murderers over another. You're still siding with murderers agains the people.
Dave
292 - Cindy
I didn't say you claimed those things Dave. I said show me evidence of those things. You said there are two sides and implied they are equal. Now you imply that one is more at fault. I want to see where Israel and Hamas are equal in their terrorist activities. Or where Hamas is more at fault. I want to know why you think that.
You saythings like Palestinian settlers are sent in to surround Israelis. That is not what I see when I look at a map Dave.
Innocent Jews don't deserve to die by Hamas rockets. But in between the rockets fired there are million of people being subjugated daily and often murdered at will by Israel.
Why don't you care about those people Dave?
Free Gaza defends Palestinians imprisoned in a ghetto by a brutal and powerful government military and you say that defending them and raising awareness is supporting Hamas? Why?
The sides are not equal. One side has a very powerful and oppressive govt.
Dave please provide any evidence that McKinney or the Free Gaza movement support Hamas.
293 - Cindy
Saudis and US have told Israel they will not stand in the way re: an attack on Iran. Saudis have told Israel they can use Saudi airspace. Biden mum on use of Iraq airspace.
Biden quoted Jan. 2008 as saying that Israel will have to reconcile itself to a nuclear Iran.
294 - roger nowosielski
#293 seems contradictory on face value.
295 - Cannonshop
Cindy, Rachael Corrie gave her life to protect the flow of arms used to kill Israelis, end-point-stop. That's accessory at minimum, and takes her out of the pool of "innocent victims" or "Innocent Bystanders" by a wide margin. The structure they were bulldozing was an 'end point' for an arms-smuggling tunnel. The nicest thing you can say is that she might not have known it-which just makes her collateral damage and a dupe who basically earned what she got.
296 - roger nowosielski
"The nicest thing you can say is that she might not have known it-which just makes her collateral damage and a dupe who basically earned what she got."
Not quite. "To kill Israelis" already presupposes a point of view that Israelis are in the right and armed resistance wrong. And so, one could say of Rachael Corrie that she gave her life for a cause.
297 - Dave Nalle
I didn't say you claimed those things Dave. I said show me evidence of those things.
The burden of proof rests with you, not me.
You said there are two sides and implied they are equal. Now you imply that one is more at fault.
Actually, I said there are more than two sides. There are the Israeli government, Hamas, the innocent people of the region and the arab/muslim powers of the region. They all play different roles.
I want to see where Israel and Hamas are equal in their terrorist activities. Or where Hamas is more at fault. I want to know why you think that.
I never said they were equal, just that neither is innocent. You seem to want to put all the blame on Israel and not hold Hamas and its supporters accountable. My point is that Hamas both attacks Israel and oppresses its own people which makes it worse in a way.
You saythings like Palestinian settlers are sent in to surround Israelis. That is not what I see when I look at a map Dave.
Look at history, Cindy. They were forced into key strategic areas to form a buffer zone. It's not an issue for debate, just historic fact.
Innocent Jews don't deserve to die by Hamas rockets. But in between the rockets fired there are million of people being subjugated daily and often murdered at will by Israel.
You're looking at it wrong. They are being forced into that oppression by Hamas. Not only does Hamas oppress and terrorize the Palestinian people, but it also provokes a great deal of what Israel does. Were Hamas out of the picture then Israel's treatment of the Palestinians would likely change for the better in substantial ways because they would cease to be a direct threat.
Why don't you care about those people Dave?
Why do you support their main oppressors? I do care, but I also look at the situation honestly.
Free Gaza defends Palestinians imprisoned in a ghetto by a brutal and powerful government military and you say that defending them and raising awareness is supporting Hamas? Why?
Because attacking Israel and treating Hamas as if it is a legitimate power in the region empowers Hamas and they are the root cause of the entire problem.
Dave
[Edited]
298 - Cindy
Dave,
The burden of proof rests with you, not me.
I've met the burden of proof. All you have is your biased beliefs, with no evidence.
It's Hamas who is really oppressing the Palestinians, not Israel? You expect to be taken seriously?
Israel made Hamas what it is Dave. Israel funded Hamas. And Israel was occupying and oppressing the Palestinian people long before it did so.
299 - Cindy
The nicest thing I can say is that Cannonshop presents one side (as usual). [Edited]
300 - Cindy
This is an nice condensed description of how Israel created Hamas, from the documentary Inside Hamas by UK's respected, educational media producer: Channel 4.
Divide and rule
"Israel’s clandestine response, revealed later by former CIA officials, was to encourage the growth of religious groups among the Palestinians as a counterweight to the secular PLO. Israel allowed funds to be channelled to these groups from abroad to promote it at the expense of the secular PLO. It was trying to divide the Palestinian movement.
Hamas, which prides itself today on its refusal to recognise Israel, grew out of an organisation called Al-Mujamma al Islami, a local arm of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood.
Led by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, Al-Mujamma al Islami was legally registered in Israel in 1978. It widened its base through religious and social work, and formalised itself as Hamas (Islamic Resistance Movement) in 1987.
The best laid plans…
As Hamas became much stronger than just a divisive counterweight, the Israeli establishment took fright. Yassin, once discreetly encouraged by Israel to undermine the PLO’s support, was assassinated by an Israeli helicopter gunship in 2004.
Some Israelis were worried that they had helped create a Frankenstein’s monster but others saw further benefits. They believed that any willingness by Fatah to make compromises for peace would be torpedoed by Hamas rejectionists, leaving the status quo unaltered, with the Occupied Palestinian Territories still in Israeli hands."
301 - Ruvy
Normally, I would stay away from this thread. the article underlying it wasa the description of a mere horse and pony show, an agit-prop stunt by people who are terrorist running dogs who masquerade as "peace activists".
But, Cindy is right on the money on the origins of Hamas. And when she is right, she deserves credit.
When the strategic decision was taken to back an Islamic religious organization in the 1970's to weaken el-FataH, the consensus in Israel was that there was to be no independent Arab state in Judea, Samaria and Gaza.
This strategic consensus broke down in the 1980's when the Labor Party jettisoned its socialist ideology and pursued Arabs as an electoral base. So, all of a sudden, it was necessary to reach an agreement with one of the Arab terror groups, and the secular Israeli establishment understood the secular el-Fatah a whole lot better than the bearded mullahs of Hamas. Both groups were devoted to massacring Jews and establishing a judenrein "Palestine".
The essential difference (still seen today) is that el-FatraH prefers to loot and then kill, and Hamas prefers to kill first, and then loot. But the secular Israeli leadership only saw in Hamas violent Arab "Hassids".
The problem was that the Israeli secular leadership was (and still is) woefully ignorant of the enemy they were dealing with. BOTH el-FataH and Hamas drew their basic inspiration from the Wahhabi controlled Moslem Brotherhood in Egypt. Had these G-d hating (Israeli) fools had any understanding or respect for their Arab neighbors, they would have encouraged the growth of Moslem religious groups taking their inspiration not from the heretical Wahhabi, but from the peace-loviong Sufi. A Sufi organization would do good works, take away from the violence of el-FataH and encourage peaceful coexistence with Jews, as well as developing relationships built on trust and respect.
You need to be a G-d fearing Jew to even comprehend this, and you need to understand something of Islam to find the way to undercut the heretics of the Wahhabi.
But too much blood has been spilt in the last 30 years to undo the stupid mistakes of the arrogant, ignorant secular Jewish establishment that ran and still runs Israel.
So more blood will have to be spilt to correct them. Truly a tragedy.
302 - Cindy
Oh well, not quite unpaginated are we? I guess I celebrated too soon.