Cartoons published in Denmark make Muslims worldwide go berserk.
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"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
Islam - Religion Of Intolerance - Comments Page 10
Cartoons published in Denmark make Muslims worldwide go berserk.
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Article comments
426 - bliffle
"...my spiritual compulsion is the reason I believe in God. There's no way I can factually defend it, ..."
Well then, there is no way I can credit your words and beliefs. It's a mystery, and inaccessible to me.
427 - Jordan Richardson
But that's just it, I'm not asking you to credit my thoughts. Faith is an individual, spiritual thing. Dogma, theology, and all of that other stuff has more objective, observational aspects, but I can't presume to describe YOUR spiritual workings any more than you can expect to understand mine. It is indeed a mystery how one communicates and sees the spectrum of the spiritual world. And, I'd argue, well it should be. We're better served as spiritual beings not as certainty-seeking egoists but rather as those seeking to find fulfillment in the wondering and in the asking of questions.
Sounds a little bit broad, doesn't it? It is. The second you can pin down a person's spirituality into near-scientific formulaic drivel is the second it loses its power.
428 - troll
Jordan - after reading you put words in my fingers a couple of times I pretty much wrote off trying to argue with you...but:
you say - My beliefs do not lead to intolerance...
yet earlier in the thread you were comfortable implying that bigotry and ignorance characterize those who accept the argument that the verse of the sword is the Book's final word on the subject of infidels and see Muslims who disagree with this interpretation as confused
so it's more like your beliefs lead you to be intolerant of intolerance (with all of the contradictions and headaches in such a statement)
...but I do enjoy your flights of sanctimonious horse shit
429 - Clavos
...and nobody on this board knows horseshit like our troll...:>)
430 - Clavos
Umm...
Should have been:
...and nobody on this board can spot horseshit...
431 - Jordan Richardson
so it's more like your beliefs lead you to be intolerant of intolerance
I would hope so. You certainly got me there.
432 - bliffle
Jordan, why would I, or anyone, ever listen to a word you say? Why would you ever bother to even say anything to another person?
"...I'm not asking you to credit my thoughts..."
433 - Jet in Columbus
Acutally Clavos I liked it better both ways... wait let me rephrase that...
434 - Jordan Richardson
Well Bliffle, I suppose it's every bit your right to remove a statement that was about my personal faith and take it to apply to any other statement, such as that I should say "I own a cat" or any other statement, and use it to establish a lack of credibility. Of course, that would be well within your reason to do so and you could apply that logic to everybody else on the planet with a spiritual belief or with an inherent lack of a spiritual belief. We cannot prove anything about the spiritual realm and yet a majority of the world's population believes in something spiritual, whether it's God or deities or ghosts or what have you.
If, in your view, that makes the majority of the world unreliable in terms of credible witness on anything they say, I guess that's an ideology you had better be prepared to be consistent with. I, for one, can easily make the separation between one's personally-held beliefs or thoughts on matters of the heart or spirit and between factually observable and testable statements related to science or the natural world.
When I said "I'm not asking you to credit my thoughts," it means that I'm not asking you to credit the thoughts we were talking about. (To be honest, I'm not asking you to credit any of my thoughts and you don't have to accept anything I have to say about any number of topics, much like I don't have to credit yours.) You can, however, go read one of my music reviews and say "well this guy believes in an unsubstantiated, untestable spiritual realm, so how can I trust what he has to say about Mariah Carey?" It'd be silly to do that, as I'd hope you'd approach each area on its own merits, but you could do that.
I want to take you back to something you said in #416 to add to this. You said there was no good reason to believe in god or any holy texts. For me, there is a good reason and it is the spiritual compulsion I feel in my heart. That is the same good reason those who have an inkling to the spiritual world in any faith or any philosophical persuasion have. There are many things in the world we have subjective good reasons for and we take with a lack of verifiable, testable proof. A compulsion such as this cannot be proven unless you can "change places" with someone who feels it. I know why people would be compelled to be Buddhist, for instance, because I know many Buddhists. Nowhere in such an exchange do I say, "Well guys, you're Buddhists and I'm not and I can't understand your Buddhism. In other words, I can't understand anything you say about anything."
I take their good reasons as being satisfying for them and treat them with respect and maturity, allowing each topical discussion to stand on its own merits.
So why would you, specifically, listen to anything I have to say? I'm not sure. If you judge people in such a fashion as to discredit them for having a personal spiritual faith, I guess I wouldn't care much if you listened to me. If you, however, were like the majority of people I know and allowed topics to stand on their own merits and didn't have a requirement to understand every aspect of my character or my belief in order to converse and discuss important issues, I don't think it'd be a problem at all.
435 - Jordan Richardson
Now Troll, I'm going to have to flesh out that response a little bit because I attacked the comment just before bed last night.
First of all, welcome back to the discussion. I hadn't realized that I'd "put words in your fingers" to such an extent. As far as I can tell, we were discussing inkblot tests and I only put words in my own fingers. I guess, however, your interpretation is as good as any. I do apologize.
Second of all, I suppose you're right when you say that my beliefs cause me to be "intolerant of intolerance." I guess I'm curious as to why such a thing, of which most human beings are guilty of (after all, should I be tolerant of intolerance?), should be a "headache" or even a "contradiction?"
Third, it is not my spiritually-held beliefs that cause me to be "intolerant of intolerance" but rather my humanistic beliefs. That is to say that it is my beliefs in equal human rights, compassion, and so forth that cause me to be intolerant of intolerance. I would have those beliefs and those ethics whether I considered myself a spiritual person or not. So you're sort of half-right in your assertion.
436 - Dr Dreadful
Clav @ #430:
Considering our bridge-keeper's erstwhile profession, you likely had it right the first time!
437 - Jordan Richardson
I'd also like to add that Hubba Bubba MAX Strawberry Watermelon is some delicious gum and I don't care if you credit my thoughts or find my gum love accessible or not.
438 - Clavos
"Considering our bridge-keeper's erstwhile profession"
That's what I originally had in mind, but decided it sounded like a slam, which was definitely NOT my intention, hence the change.
I like the bridge man.
439 - RJ Elliott
What? Was he a jockey?
440 - Clavos
No, a farrier.
441 - bliffle
Jordan,
Seems to me your thinking is very confused. For example, I can't understand what you mean by referencing budhism. Is it your contention that I should credit your beliefs because you are willing to credit the beliefs of some budhist? Why would that be a convincing argument? Do you think it is incumbent upon me to give leeway to you in the same manner as you (may) be willing to give leeway to a budhist?
That seems to me to be utterly unwarranted.
442 - rossh
We must study what (Islam) really means that include deep understanding of the Bible and Holy Quran other sacred books we all have deviate from the prophets of God send are raise to every nation. Satan said he decieve all/ whole world not one particular relgion of our rebelliness. Every prohet that guide brought unity, all do respect the 24 elders are Scientist(Gods) that wrote the Bible and Quran in Quran u call them the Exalting Chiefs or Exalting Assembly, Counsels of God, Angelic beings, Aunnakin Of Summerians, Ascending Masters they have circle among them, very powerful divine man and one of them Supremer (Allah) the best Knower In Holy Quran says no matter what name u call him , In truth but Allah is proper name of Divine Being (He) represent all names in world, a Allah means All in the All that in the bible of Jesus saying also Jesus says he will be in his Farthers name ,Comforter or holy Spirit truth will be in Jesus name. Islam brings unity. U dont think God will (come) himself and raise a divine messager in (last days) whom all relegion looking for somebody with a (body) to come God whom made planets stars, universe,heavens has Utimate soulution to humanity problems. humanity wouldnt be here without his image as the Bible says, then how did we get our form. God always convey his Spirit human Form this is the best Form theirs no form greater than human form we are all not yet perfect we have to develop or grow into perfection. universe is material but the essence of Universe is spritual God is the everliving!
443 - rossh
propet Muhammad of 1400 was sign of last one to (come) Messiah or unversal divine messager relates to Gods coming their staement in the hadith of his saying that (sun) will rise in west that a metaphore, realistic planets go around Sun, Sun represent God gives Light of truth that will nourish us or life into growth spiritually advacement, prohet himself didnt slave black people not him personally even though he's a (white arab) himself freed those slaves, it was the white arabs are tribes in that time ruling that land. But original people of land were Black. Has black people we have mature or understand the root of justice and negatives that includes knoweldge of God,self,others we will not be able to give justice to ourselfs and juctice to white people. basically i want to say 66 trillions years are more ago long before the white people on this Earth one our Black Scientist(God) blasted the moon in space he wanted the entire planet to speake same dialect became frustrated, could not force his will ! that moon is a sign today, white scientist took samples of the moon they saying smell like smokey fuems powder, black people had problems with ourselfs since 66trillions . I do not want u to think the white man is source of ( all ) of our problems. The Bible say who responsible the clay are the potter. Black is essence which all colors come from, jesus says their sheep not of this fold and joseph many colors, thats body of Christ, will be in Kingdom Of heaven or Peace on earth thats what (Islam) is by action , all prophets taught relgion of peace, freedom ,justice, equality that nature of human being (muslim),why because created single essencs which is God himself and Woman is second self God cantains secret of God why she births God, Angels,Prophets, holy people, genius, gifted talents also the key kingdom of Heaven.
444 - Ruvy
I've been on this thread before - in fact I wrote comment #2 and comment #11. And I've read all sorts of ideas and arguments here and have discussed and argued with Moslems as well.
But Rossh (I guess that is Ross H.), you don't make any sense at all. I realize you do to yourself - you wrote two long comments. But what you are trying to say is just not coming across.
445 - evil
Some of us are crazier than others. World will be better after another great war.
Peace be upon everybody. Please do good karma.
446 - v
RE: 9 - Mohammed
Jan 31, 2006 at 7:56 am
Freedom of expression does not mean that one gets absolute right to abuse the other and get away with it.
MOMAD - expressing oneself in an artistic way IS a right we can all practise. It is NOT abusing the other as you say. It is exagerating the situation in a funny way, which is absolutely within our right to do and we can get away with it. Is that a threat?
"Freedom of expression means to make a constructive criticism of oneself or other by which the critic is not hurting the other in any manner. This is what ISLAM teaches & this is what is practiced by Moslems worldwide".
MOMAD - Freedom of expression is just that and that is what Westerners practise for ALL THE WORLD to see, for anyone to appreciate humour. If you happen to be offended by the pictures, because of your religion, then just ignore them. Everyone is entitled to feel what they want but it is NOT blaphemy.
"But the western methodology of freedom of expression is nothing but sheer blasphemy of religion without ethical & faith boundaries which is totally unacceptable".
MOMAD - Obviously in yours and other Muslims eyes "Western Methodology" freedom of expression is blasphemy. What we have to stop just cause you think so, or say so?
"So the best way the Moslems worldwide could react was to boycott the Norwegian & Danish produce so that they can feel the pinch of their wrong doings".
There you go again. "wrong doings".
You guys are so sensitive. This is the Western world where you are allowed to express your opinions, but in no way can you force your ideologies on others, complete with threats. If you don't like it where you are living, you are free to leave and this is also your right.
447 - v
RE: 33 - Rohan Venkat
Jan 31, 2006 at 1:21 pm
"I beleive in free speech, and that the cartoonist was exercising his/her. And although i wouldn't have done the same, any muslim country that is doing anything as a reaction to this, is also exercising it's own rights".
ROHAN - There is where the difference lies between the twisted muslim way of thinking and the Western world's way of thinking.
The Muslims have NO RIGHT to react violently (and this is what I assume you are doing) in reaction to a cartoon picture.
You people complain that we don't understand your religion and even if you tell us about it, you expect us to adhere to it. So because we don't, violence erupts. I wonder how many other religions YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Would you expect the same treatment from them, just because YOU DON'T FOLLOW THEIR RELIGION?