Are Death Panels of eugenicists really going to decide who lives and dies under national health care?
With multiple proposed health care bills, the largest having over 1000 pages, and a lot of heat being generated on both sides of the debate, there are many misconceptions and odd beliefs about what national health care will eventually look like. Both sides in the debate have made assumptions about the legislation which may not entirely be borne out by reality and there is a great deal of confusion and acrimony as a result.…
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126 - Dave Nalle
As long as Congressional Republicans and their allies defeat the Democrats by preventing this legislation, they don't care how they accomplish it.
It's not really about defeating this legislation. It's about discrediting the Democrats and winning back Congress in 2010.
Dave
127 - zingzing
"It's not really about defeating this legislation. It's about discrediting the Democrats and winning back Congress in 2010."
ain't that the truth.
128 - Bliffle
Gee, isn't there a little room in the republican plan for the interests of the US citizen?
129 - roger nowosielski
"It's not really about defeating this legislation. It's about discrediting the Democrats and winning back Congress in 2010."
Dave, that's the most cynical statement I've heard from you yet. I would have thought you were motivated by higher ends.
130 - roger nowosielski
Actually, it's downright discrediting. Even if deep down you thought it, you should never say it.
131 - Dave Nalle
Gee, isn't there a little room in the republican plan for the interests of the US citizen?
Republicans believe that the interests of the US citizen are best served by electing Republicans. I'd disagree with that in that I believe that the best interests of the people are served by election BETTER Republicans.
And Roger, I wasn't writing about MY motivations. That should have been clear. But I do believe that real reform and putting this country on the right path requires the defeat of the Democrats and the ascendancy of a reformed Republican party.
Dave
132 - Clavos
Even if deep down you thought it, you should never say it.
Wouldn't that be hypocritical and deceitful?
133 - roger nowosielski
It was an appeal to Dave's better instinct. And in any case, there's a much need correction as per #131.
Have a good night!
134 - zingzing
roger: "Even if deep down you thought it, you should never say it."
and deeper down, that's so meta, it eats itself.
135 - roger nowosielski
Are you saying it's infinitely circular?
136 - roger nowosielski
Top conservatives on Sarah Palin's "Death Panel".
137 - Silas Kain
Why don't people just read the damn bill? I've gone through the original, line by line. We've placed it on the web in such a way that it's simple to navigate. Insofar as this "death panel" thing goes, I'm more incensed about the fact that anyone would want to withhold counseling for the dying. That's just now what we're about, folks.
I hope that the Democrats who are digging their heels succeed. The Public Option has to be a part of any health care reform. And that is because of the great lengths insurance, pharmaceuticals and medical groups have gone. They've invested millions into defeating any kind of reform. There was a comment made by a Southern pundit that there was "sumthin' in the woodpile". Well, taking that subtle racial reference to a new height I would like to identify what's in the woodpile -- special interests with their well paid members of Congress playing the role of bitch.
138 - zingzing
"Are you saying it's infinitely circular?"
sorta. i guess.
139 - Penny Trading
Silas very well said. The public option is a must IMO. Anything less is just putting lipstick on the pig.
140 - Silas Kain
Very interesting read in today's Washington Post about Tom Daschle's visit to the Oval Office yesterday. When the President considered him early on for the HHS post, I questioned it based upon Sen. Daschle's history with medical and insurance lobbyists.
After reading the article it dawned on me that Barack Obama's Administration may very well have been doomed from Day One. He filled his Administration with the same Washington insiders who have been part and parcel of America's woes. They were all paid handsomely by special interests and then achieved office in the Executive branch. History may well regard Obama's legacy to be that of irrevocably weakening the Executive Branch. The US Supreme Court (the remaining branch) is top heavy with Conservatives. While the current configuration is a bit too far on the right, these 9 individuals could emerge having a more pivotal role in the next few years than they did during the 2000 elections.
141 - Dave Nalle
Why don't people just read the damn bill?
I've now read the bill (HR3200) five times. How much that is worth is debatable, as the bill currently in committee is rumored to bear little resemblance to it.
But I'm confident that whatever we end up with will still be uttelry unacceptable, because it will continue to include mandated universal insurance without a single-payer option which is just ridiculous and will destroy small businesses, and it will still include a public option which will undermine the free market even further and just make things worse. Plus, all of the stupid restrictions whcih encourage monopolization in the insurance industry will still be there.
Why is it so outrageous to want to start from scratch and design a system which actually works and incorporates an actual FREE market in health care as part of it?
Silas, how can you support this cobbled together pile of shit and perks for special interests?
Dave
142 - handyguy
Saying this will destroy small businesses is an irresponsible exaggeration/falsehood.
Insurance will actually become more affordable than it is now for small businesses, through tax breaks and subsidies. The tiniest businesses will be exempt from the mandate, and most larger small businesses would like to offer health care. The subsidies and tax breaks in the legislation are designed to help them do so.
If you could forego this kind of nonsense, the discussion would be more constructive.
Moderate Dems in the Senate want to remove the mandate altogether. Talk about a cobbled together piece of shit.
143 - handyguy
How can the same legislation 'undermine the free market' with a public option, and simultaneously 'encourage monopolization in the insurance industry'?
I assume the bill will also curdle milk and make babies cry while it turns the US into France and makes us all shuffling Obama-bots. This bill, damn it, will single handedly destroy our freedom!
And I heard it will mandate free sex change operations on demand, and give old people a choice: euthanasia or be shipped to Bagram, and besides, Obama is Hitler anyhow and just...a big bully! And I'm gonna take my ball and just go home now!
144 - Clavos
or be shipped to Bagram
Might be an improvement over living in the USA...
145 - handyguy
Actually, turning the US into France [or maybe the Netherlands] sounds pretty damn cool to some of us -- too cool to ever come true.
146 - Silas Kain
Silas, how can you support this cobbled together pile of shit and perks for special interests?
I can't in the original form. And it's the perks that scare me most. However, we mus have health care reform now. It's too big of a part of the GDP to be ignored. While Bush and Obama Administrations have stated that some financial institutions or manufacturers were just too big to fail, I maintain that the entire health care system is a larger albatross destined to make a handful rich while subscribers get the short end of the stick. When Tom Daschle, a minion of United Health care, becomes the whisper in Barack Obama's ear I see nothing but status quo or a slight variation thereof.
147 - HitAndRun
Article
148 - leighann
As I have said before, the only first hand experience I have had with government healthcare is what I have had with my father. He fought in Vietnam where we think he contracted Hep B and he is mentally ill. He self medicated for a long time with alcohol until the VA finally gave him meds for his illness.
He now is in need of a liver transplant and is too sick to feed himself or even talk to me on the telephone because he can't hold the phone. With this very serious illness he is only able to see a nurse practitioner. She is very rude. He has been unable to even get on the transplant waiting list because every time he tests positive for drugs it keeps him off for another six months. He has been testing positive around the sixth month every time and swearing that he has not touched anything (which they totally ignore). The last time we knew the positive drug test couldn't be right because he is unable to do anything. We took him to the civilian doctor the next day. He tested negative. Only then would VA run their test again and say that they made a "mistake." There are countless other things I could write about the VA and their treatment of my father but I will not.
I will just say that I think they do not think he is worth it and are waiting for him to die. After all he did it to himself, right? They are doing nothing.
If my son has a little rash or stuffy nose I will take him to a nurse practitioner but if he is really sick...then he goes to a pediatrician, a specialist. How do they justify someone with liver disease not seeing a real doctor?
There are people who say that they are satisfied with VA, I would bet that most of them have never been had a life threatening illness. I often go on a liver disease support site on-line. I often read posts from people who have had the same experience with VA as my dad.
If government run healthcare is like VA then I want no part of it. I saw a protest in Nashville today. Both sides were out there and I just happened to be passing through. There was this elderly man (I think he was homeless) yelling obscenities at the side protesting the healthcare reform. He was holding up a card that showed he was a veteren and saying "What about me?" When asked about VA, he said that they did nothing for him. I wondered how he did not know that he was supporting more of the same.
I do not want people to not have healthcare. I want to find a way to help but this is not it. The wealthy people should and Christian people are called to help those in need but should not be forced in to doing so. The protesters who were for the reform were holding up "What Would Jesus Do" signs and talking about how he healed the sick. It is true that Christians are required by God to help but they should know that Christianity can not and should not be forced on anyone. Anyway I am rambling....Sorry.
149 - Silas Kain
Leighann, I sympathize with your plight. Let me give you a piece of unsolicited advice as it has worked for many people I know in the past. If your father is receiving substandard care from the VA, call your member of Congress, your two Senators and copy the letters to the Secretary at the Department of Veterans Affairs. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. I wish it were not that way, but it's reality in the United States.
We have three V.A. Hospitals that I can think of in this area and I've always been amazed at the quality of care at one in particular vs. the other two. As I've said before the V.A. health delivery system isn't perfect. It needs work and is not completely ineffectual. My prayers are with you and yours.
150 - leighann
Silas, Thanks for the advice. I think I will try that.